The country has one of the lowest numbers of foreign residents in Europe, and very, very few of those people are black. There is very little official immigration here. Yet outside that, roughly a million refugees have come in from Africa in the last decade and the Swiss and French border police do an excellent job of keeping them here. They don't want to stay here but they can't get out. The result is major cities and tourist spots are flooded with all these people who have nothing to do and nowhere to go.
Racism in Italy - even anti-racism is filled with racism
- Thread starter Ødegaard
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The country has one of the lowest numbers of foreign residents in Europe, and very, very few of those people are black. There is very little official immigration here. Yet outside that, roughly a million refugees have come in from Africa in the last decade and the Swiss and French border police do an excellent job of keeping them here. They don't want to stay here but they can't get out. The result is major cities and tourist spots are flooded with all these people who have nothing to do and nowhere to go.
Yes I just want to offer my opinion as an East Asian. In a time where the offended are voicing their opinion, I think its also important for the non-offended to voice the opinion to paint a bigger picture.That's your personal view though. That's fine of course - no-one asks you to be offended, and if you're good with whatever people in your social circle are saying, then more power to you.
But overall, a lot of people do feel uncomfortable or get offended by disparaging comments based on race and appearances. Plus underlying those comments are often real feelings of superiority/inferiority - they're not just laughing at something, they feel there really is an issue of some sort (even if unconsciously). And that has real-word consequences, such as (unconscious) discrimination when hiring staff - for which there is plenty of evidence. And that's just one example. Also, if someone mocks you in public (in public being the key thing here; we're not in a private setting) because of your eyes, then even if you don't feel insulted, other people with similar eyes might.
So that's why it's good to call out people that are being racist, or otherwise discriminate on the basis of appearance, gender, ability, and so on. People can still make jokes, of course, but mocking people based on things they are simply born with should not be acceptable. (That statement can probably be qualified in some ways, or may need to be expanded, but I have to get back to work.)
But yes I agree, | can understand if people get offended.
I just think there is "real racism" and things that at least I take more as a insensitive fauxpas...
And personally I think in the Anglosphere it is too quick to call people racist.
So I think it is true that my eyes are comically tiny and its ok for my family to make fun of it in a good way.
Same as I make fun of my white friend who get sunburn super easily, or my Turkish friend who is super hairy....
I think it is important in that case to still operate under the modus innocent until proven otherwise. So, personally, I will take this Juve girl's post as some kind of joke, until it is proven otherwise.
It is ok to criticize her, but as someone also in that "community" I want to defend her a bit.
She is white in Italy so we Asians look differently to her.
If she goes to Japan people might potray her as different and exotic...
In regard to Black people being subjected to monkey chants, no that is not ok as it is dehumanizing.
What she did was not dehumanizing (in my opinion).
Don't be ruddy ridiculous. Someone who is a family member calling you something and someone in public life doing it is completely different. Now all these opposing fans being racists is just banter or joking? She knew exactly what she was doing.
Minimising racism
Folks, this is s*it and should never happen, we all agree. On the other hand, the racism against black people is a gigantic issue deeply ingrained in the anglosphere, and almost foundational in the US. Stop pretending other countries must share the same sensitivity, just accept explanations or simply feck off.
I understand where you are coming from here, and obviously there are incidents of racism that are more overt and immediately harmful than others. But I think it's important to understand that all the incidences you'd call "insensitive fauxpas" can add up to something. It's quite intangible in the short-term but over years and decades it builds up subconscious biases that impact people in big ways.
As an example, they've done studies in the states that show people are more likely to be okay with black people getting beaten by the police. Now it's impossible to pin-point where those deep-held prejudices come from, but, for example, maybe growing up watching movies where black men were cast as the villain/criminals has some part in that. And that is just one example, I am sure there are hundreds, probably thousands that could be listed.
Things like that which as a one-off can be defended as wholly un-racist, even - but over years and hundreds of incidents/moments that people experience it eventually becomes something bigger. Now imagine an entire culture filled with things like this - and maybe you can understand why people in the UK & US are concerned about the impact of all forms of racism, no matter how seemingly insignificant or low-impact, and how all that adds up to the huge detriment of people and society.
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You can always tell a discussion is getting near rock bottom when “real racism” gets mentioned
I don't get what you're saying here. That Anglos can't comment because they have their own issues? Or that some Italian attitudes have to be accepted by people that don't know the country?
That has nothing to do with (actual) racism more the fact that your are more likely to identify yourself and feel sympathy for someone who bears a closer resemblance to yourself. That's not racism that's human nature.
I don't recall movies portraying black men as villains is commonplace at all. If i look at the movies and tv series i've enjoyed i don't recall any casting a black men as a villiain(s).
Goodfellas (1990) White Villain(s)
Chaos (2005) White Villian
Inside Man (2006) White Villain
Gladiator (2000) White Villian
Batman Trilogy (2005-2012) White Villain(s)
Game of Thrones (2011- 2019) White Villians
Rome (2005-2007) White Villians
Dexter (2006-2013) White Villians
These are my favorites movies/shows it's just a few, but the fact that there is some sort of norm that black men gets portrayed as villains more than others is simply not true at all.
If what you are saying is true then how come the studies don’t show the same results for other minority groups?
Edit:
Some useful data in here
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/2016/9/13/12889478/black-actors-typecasting
“on one hand racism is bad. On the other hand, we like our racism the way it is so go away”
Fecking hell!
What an awful awful pov.
"Accept our explanation or just feck off"
In a vacuum, all is dark. If you want to eradicate a malaise, which exists beyond any doubt or negation, you need to know its (historical and cultural) roots at local level. Bashing different cultures without context is not useful and only leads to further misunderstanding.
More at large, a much sensitive issue somewhere (because of local historical events and related weight on the population) might not be the most sensitive issue elsewhere (because of different local historical events and related weight on the population).
Just accepting that, and the fact that more progress/exposure needs to be achieved elsewhere just to become aware of the issue, would help speed up the eradication.
But, how does exposure become achieved if not by saying “Hey this is wrong” like people did with the post of the Juventus footballer? Trying to brush it off or pretending it’s not a big deal is not contributing to progress.
In fact, the club and the girl apologized. Lesson learned, move on, until next event. Or not?
Move on? I've only seen what appear to be apologists bringing up the Juventus social media thing recently.
The thread's been bumped twice since that incident with other instances of racism.
The latest being the alleged abuse of Elanga when playing U21 football for his country against Italy.
Manchester United forward Anthony Elanga was subjected to an alleged racist comment by an opponent while playing for Sweden Under-21s against Italy, the Swedish FA has said.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58896073
Mate, I am really willing to take all this seriously, again, provided that you do the same.
A boy, born and raised in the UK, where the racism he and his family are experiencing daily is subtle, passive-aggressive, widespread, cultural, professional, takes exception for an alleged insult he thinks he heard at the end of a hard-fought football game. If FIGC finds his own player guilty, he will be surely fined and apologies made.
On the other hand, your boy has to come back home and carry on experiencing more daily, subtle, passive-aggressive, widespread, cultural, professional racism from ordinary englanders supporting Priti Patel with flares up their bum. (Am I doing well for a racist, right?)
what on earth does Priti Patel have to do with a Swedish player being racially abused in an u21 match versus Sweden?
A lot of people have mentioned the slanted eyes, for me and many others its not a bit deal. I showed this picture to my gf and also my mate who are both East Asian, and we did not find it so horrible.
I mentioned my family, to show that in the end this is not a big deal and among Asians we also make the same jokes.
I have to agree in a way. (I cannot agree that racism against black people is ingrained in the anglosphere or not and I cannot agree that other Europeans or Asians are free of racism against Blacks/Whites/Asians)
I went to Italy so many times and received nothing but love. I truely love this country and the welcoming people. I really cannot accept that this country or the people are painted as racist, but obviously some people there can act racist.
From my point of view, the issue is that the Anglosphere has a certain definition of what is ok and what is not, what is racism and what is not. Now due to the media and press this definition is imposed on other cultures (Italian, Polish, Japanese, Arabic...) (because somehow people in the rest of the world, me included, we get influenced by US-UK media) (Also the Anglosphere media always feels it has the definite answer for everything everywhere.)
What this girl did, didnt cause a huge uproar in Germany where I live nor among any Asian I know. So As an Asian I have to defend her and also the Italian people (now somehow Italy is seen as racist).
For example if I (who is East Asian) or anyone else move to Japan and speak perfect Japanese and live there in 4th generation, people will treat me as non-Japanese. Because this is how being a Nihonjin is defined.
Now BBC etc. criticize this as being racist... which from a point of the BBC makes sense, but from a Japanese pov they also have a right to stick to their definition of what being a Japanese means.
To give another example, if you are white and go to a club in Shanghai, you can enter for free and even get free drinks. But I have to pay (usually my white friends just say, that I belong to them, and I get the same priviliges).
Now for the Anglosphere this is deeply racist. But for the Chinese, its a simple business decision, they make more money if they have some white people, so they let them in for free.
(Nowadays Koreans also can enter for free, because they are seen as a "cool crowd".)
Other Asians and me, we are fine with it, and we might run our club the same way. So for us its not racist. For the BBC, I guess it is.
I agree that we have to be careful to not allow racism, but also I think be careful to not accuse people of racism when its just a harmless joke.
Its a tight balance, but in the end personally I prefer to rather err on the side, not to accuse her of racism.
EDIT:
I am very happy people here take racism seriously and also are supporting Asian people.
Also I do not in any way condemn the Anglo-Saxon way of looking at racism, I think its a brilliant way to act. I just want to explain a bit from an Asian perspective and hope that other members here can see how the issue of racism is seen in different parts of the world and perceived by different people.
I have been to so many places and met so many wonderful people who have love in their heart, but everywhere people just have different approaches to issues such as racism, LGBT rights, drug policy, classism etc. etc. etc.
So in the end i just hope we can all when in doubt believe that the other person means it well.
Also I think if she was truely racist, starting a shitstorm and forcing her to apology wont help anything. The best is to grab a beer, tell a few jokes and see that in the end we all can have a good time together.
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Hyperbolic whataboutery is not doing well at all, I'm afraid.
Ah, so it's better to be racist out in the open, then. Got it.
Firstly, how do you know whether he experiences daily racism (what do you mean by cultural, professsional racism btw?!) in the UK or not? This post seems to be trying to excuse open racism by saying 'yes, but back home people are also racist, just not in as overt a way'. Both types are wrong, stop trying to use one to excuse the other.
I'm not sure what's the cultural thing here. There are plenty of examples of racist abuse directed at Black players during matches in Italy. How is that different from the same racist abuse happening else?
Yes, on to the next event. That's why this thread exists, because it appears that we are constantly moving on to another event in Italian football with disappointing frequency.
So players that grew up with everyday racism shouldn't take offense at racist remarks at a football game because they're used to worse? Are you really saying that?
This is the Italy thread. Feel free to post in the many threads about racism in England to point out issues over there.
I don't know how you see your owns posts, but you appear to be minimzing the racism at every turn. Not a good look.
I can spare you the hassle and refer direct links to 100 years of racism originating from historical and cultural events directly linked to these shores: Eritrean diaspora under Mussolini (1920s and 30s); Southerners migrating to the more affluent North (1950s up to 70s); gypsies/travellers Eastern Europeans migrating to the affluent Northern Italy (1990s); middle Easterners moving to Italy without any sort of intention to live the Italian/Westerner way (2000s); and lately, hundred thousands subsaharians moving to Europe and being locked in Italy against their will (2010s). More or less, any of these were / are being approached in a dutiful manner (towards integration or containment or conciliation, without escalation) and defused without social unrest.
"Without social unrest" for who ?
What does this have to do with anything we were discussing before?
It refreshing to come across someone with such a broad knowledge of film.
Thank god cinema started in the 90s thus making it easy to produce a representative sample, also what a wonderful coincidence that this is precisely when racism also started.
You are missing the point. They weren't talking about a classical villain. There were talking about the inclusion of young black men in hoodies largely being portrayed as violent gangsters and gangbangers in cinema and tv which has the impact of reinforcing negative stereotypes.
You said it yourself (by sharing those film villains), far more damage is done by middle/upper class white males than by young black males yet when was the last time you felt insecure walking past a white man in his 40s. Never? Now ask why that is despite the level of crime and destruction they have brought the world.
Oh come on, there's racist issues in italian stadiums almost every week, i decided not to bump this thread each time it happens because i didn't want people to think i was hammering on italians. It's a huge problem in Italy, you just decide not to care.
What the feck are you talking about
We're definitely not going to see eye-to-eye on this. I am Black, and have lived in Africa, North America, Oceania, and Asia; and I repeatedly see the same things brought up by non-Black people of color who grow up in environments where they are the majority.
A casual dismissal by stating that Westerners focus too much on racism - just like you have. While slanted eyes may not be a problem FOR YOU, it is still a problem in many countries. Look up the history of how Asians were treated in the immediate post-colonial Africa, or throughout a lot of Western history in the past 150+ years.
You likely didn't encounter racism in Italy, but there are examples in this very thread that show Italy isn't like your anecdotal experience. How many times have we heard of cases about slurs being used in football matches alone?
As for Japan, there is a perception of homogeneity when that is in fact not the case. I experienced that throughout my 4 years there, where I interacted with MANY, MANY people researching about society and anthropology. Not to mention dating a half-Black Japanese person, who chimed in with a lot of insights. But to unpack that, we need to go deep and look at their multiethnic roots (that they like to overlook) and the period between 1945-1980 when many right-wing (and racist) leaders had untold influence in the country. But...that is beyond the scope of this post.
There's no coincidence that almost every society on Earth has a derogative term for Black people. I wonder why that is. I'm sick of people downplaying experiences that Black people have on a daily basis. I have to deal with micro-aggressions, code-switching and heaven knows what else to just get people to treat me normally. And sometimes even that doesn't work. I don't even have the stereotypical negative physical traits that media around the world loves to abuse.
I have felt sub-human before, and it wasn't in just in the "Anglosphere".
Don't even get me started on colorism.
I think that the frequency of said "experiences" is not mentionned enough. I'm a white guy living in France and even if my parents weren't poor, i went to a school with a lot of poor kids from different origins and experienced racism towards me. Also, I used to work at a club where some girls touched me in various places without my consent (it's seems like 2 different topics but it's actually related). To be honest both were fine, why? Because it was VERY occasional. It happened, yes, but once every couple of months so it really wasn't a big deal, i didn't feel any constant pressure, i didn't feel i needed to behave a certain way or prove anything, it was just stupid people. The problem is, when you experience that almost every day in one form or another (slur, bias, agressions...), it's a VERY different thing. 99.99% of the time I wasn't defined by my origin or because I was a male, so it was pretty easy to deal with. I often go out with a black friend of mine and sometimes we go to 10 different bar in the evening, and he sometimes he has to deal with people making "jokes" about him being black in almost every bar. He pretends it's fine but it really sucks, he just had to accept that it would be this way if he wants to have a quiet evening so he pretends to laugh and to be ok with it. He's not.
We clearly see some posters in this topic (and it was actually mentionned by fans in Italy when they try to justify their behaviour) pretending that it's not racism, it's just "the culture", the "way things are here", a "way to motivate players", "just jokes to taunt players, it's not racist, any players gets insults". It's disgusting. Someone tried to explain where racism comes from. You know where racism comes from? Racist people, period.
Another terrible exemple, in Italy, again :
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Racism is ugly and has no place on earth. Unfortunately there's racism everywhere. From Fiji all the way to Hawaii. I've been called 'bule' in Indonesia, 'gringo' in Mexico and I definitely didn't feel welcome when I strolling around in Jamaica. And then there's social media, which fuels all kinds of hatred, because that's what generates traffic and clicks. I hope it's something that it could be eradicated and be left in the past.
Gringo being racist is on ongoing debate but your point is valid though, xenophobia exists in pretty much every country, but it's more violent in some than others. You can't really compare racism in France and in Hungary for exemple, it's a whole different level.
Wow the first time I hear the word "bulé" is related to racism. 
It was our Dutch Master who used it first centuries ago to call fellow while people who live in a nice area with a boule-vard.
Edit:
A little searching. "Some westerners find the word insulting...."
OK.
I honestly find it strange if a westerner is called bulé directly as I think bulé is a third person word. Instead We usually say "Mister". Now I am sure female westerners would find the word sexist because we are so ignorant that we also call them mister.
It was our Dutch Master who used it first centuries ago to call fellow while people who live in a nice area with a boule-vard.
Edit:
A little searching. "Some westerners find the word insulting...."
OK.
I honestly find it strange if a westerner is called bulé directly as I think bulé is a third person word. Instead We usually say "Mister". Now I am sure female westerners would find the word sexist because we are so ignorant that we also call them mister.
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Bule wasn't the insult, usually it's the next word after that..Wow the first time I hear the word "bulé" is related to racism.
It was our Dutch Master who used it first centuries ago to call fellow while people who live in a nice area with a boule-vard.
Edit:
A little searching. "Some westerners find the word insulting...."
OK.
I honestly find it strange if a westerner is called bulé directly as I think bulé is a third person word. Instead We usually say "Mister". Now I am sure female westerners would find the word sexist because we are so ignorant that we also call them mister.
And it doesn't have a history of degradation like some actual racist words
Even it's very rare that Bulé followed by bad words, at least from my personal experience. I have heard much worse from the word "ginger".
Btw, I find we Asians usually very racist (Toward other ethnic or other Asian national), but we never take it seriously, get on with it, etc...
Why? I think that's because we have much much bigger problems than racism.
So although I disagree with @the_answer's opinion, I can understand where his come from.
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I mean, as a fellow italian I actually understand the historical and cultural reasons behind racism in our country, I just don't understand why the feck they're relevant to the topic. It's fecking racism and it's a very real and very big problem in our country. Understanding where it comes from doesn't make it ok ffs
He really went 0 for 5 on this page
Looks really bad for the country. Will never put it as a destination for holiday.