Racism in Italy - even anti-racism is filled with racism

[Roane]

I've never been to Italy but have known many Italians over the years. My barber as a kid was an Italian bloke and I worked in an Italian restaurant in my student days. Have to say I never would have believed Italy was racist. Im still in contact with the owner of the restaurant and my barber (retired now but I run into him no and again). Absolutely great blokes. Always wanted to go to Italy as a result.

I worked with a fella about 15-20 years ago. He was a Manchester lad, black. His wife was Italian (she was born and raised in England but her parents were Italian immigrants). They had a daughter together and had gone to Italy for a holiday. On coming back he was saying how horrible it was in terms of racism. I was surprised as per what I wrote above.

Yesterday I was working and met a bloke, again young black guy. We got chatting and I asked him where he was from, because he had a strong accent. He said he was from Italy and had moved to London initially but was now living here. I asked him if Italy was racist and he said very much so. He also said he lived the place and had lived there happily as a single man. He had got married and had a kid and felt he had to move as he didn't want his kids subjected to the racism he had to endure.

So seems like things haven't changed much and it's really out me off going to Italy as an Asian bloke.

 

[Adam-Utd]

That's a very good point, and the differing responses to each situation are also relevant.

My young nephew has red hair. He's the only one in the class and regularly gets bullied for it. His parents have asked the teachers to stop it as it really upsets him, but they just get what amounts to: 'oh, it's nothing serious, he'll have to man up and not be so sensitive'.

In the same class, there's one young Asian girl. She also started getting the same level of bullying for being different. They quickly had a class meeting and an assembly about how racism and sexism is wrong and how anyone guilty of either would be strongly punished.

The latter was spot on, and very good by the school. The former was terrible, but very symbolic of the current betwixt and between attitude currently in society. We now recognise things like that are wrong, which is great; but we're only clamping down on certain acts of racism, sexism, prejudices, etc, depending on who the perpetrators and victims are.

Racism against black players is being addressed, which is great. But comments against Asian players, and anti-semitic remarks as Tottenham complained about recently, aren't deemed as bad. And I doubt any accusations of BAME players making racist remarks against white players would garner much support or credibility. The same with sexism allegations made by, or against, male / female players. One would get a lot more criticism than the other, rather than both be treated severely as completely unacceptable.

Yep, hair colour discrimination can be just as nasty but it's never taken seriously. I don't even know why it happens, I can only assume it's because red heads are in the minority. The fact it usually comes with pale skin too just makes them stand out as a target. There seems to be some weird stigma that being 'ginger' is a weird or bad thing? I don't know if this happens in other countries or if it's purely a british thing.

 

[abundance]

Yep, hair colour discrimination can be just as nasty but it's never taken seriously. I don't even know why it happens, I can only assume it's because red heads are in the minority. The fact it usually comes with pale skin too just makes them stand out as a target. There seems to be some weird stigma that being 'ginger' is a weird or bad thing? I don't know if this happens in other countries or if it's purely a british thing.

Historically it's been a thing everywhere.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosso_Malpelo

Ginger bullying among kids isn't a thing anymore since long here in Italy, as far as I know.

Regarding redhead women as sex bombs is still going strong though .p

 

[Adam-Utd]

Historically it's been a thing everywhere.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosso_Malpelo

Ginger bullying among kids isn't a thing anymore since long here in Italy, as far as I know.

Regarding redhead women as sex bombs is still going strong though .p

Amen to that

 

[Peter van der Gea]

You try to sound very empathetic but you call it genetic anomaly. I think Asian eyes are perfectly normal, that’s why I have trouble to understand why it’s offensive. I agrer it’s rude and inconsiderate but I wouldn’t feel offended if someone pointed out my very normal physical characteristics. I would feel offended if someone called it anomaly.

When I say anomaly, I'm talking from the point of view of the racist/ignorant person. Asian eyes are normal to Asian people and others who spend a lot of time with Asians. People who don't aren't used to Asian people see their eyes as different.

Anomaly : a deviation from the common rule, type, arrangement, or form

Its not offensive, it just mean different from the norm and everyone has a different perspective of what the norm is.

As for "genetic", it literally means it has come from the genes of the person, no decision making involved. You can decide to be anomalous, dye your hair pink for example, but that's not genetic.

When someone is stereotyping by genetic differences, like eye shape or skin tone or nose size, that's racist.

 

[11101]

Italy is a time bomb ready to explode. Far right parties like Lega Nord and Fratelli d'italia are among the firm favorites to win the next GE. The problem with Italy is that while Germany embraced their history and learnt from it, Italy did not. Many still blame Hitler for Mussolini's worst crimes when in reality Mussolini was his own man.

I always chuckle when I see all the WW2 memorials and anti Hitler/Fascist statues in Italy. It's like they forgot they were on his side! Until they realised he wasn't going to win, anyway.

I don't think Italy is racist, not overly anyway. Nothing like in comparison to some other places I have lived and worked. They are just very proud of being Italian and look down on anybody who is not. I hear far worse things said about the French (who they particularly loathe) or the Swiss than I do about anybody from Asia or Africa.

 

[giorno]

I always chuckle when I see all the WW2 memorials and anti Hitler/Fascist statues in Italy. It's like they forgot they were on his side! Until they realised he wasn't going to win, anyway.

Eh. Not exactly how it went, but it's true that had Mussolini managed to stay away from Hitler - like Franco - we'd have remained a fascist dictatorship for at least another decade or two. Bringing us into the war was mussolini's fatal mistake, the country started turning on him very quickly afterwards. Nobody, not even Mussolini in fact, actually wanted to get involved. Mussolini was scared of Hitler's reaction if we didn't join them and thought he work as a sort of mediator between germany and GB to bring to war to a close quickly. But then GB wanted no part of an armistice with Germany, Japan bombed Pearl Harbor and the rest is history


As for the topic at hand: there is absolutely no way these people didn't know or realize what they were doing. This was very much intentional. My guess is they didn't realize how big of negative reaction they'd get

 

[11101]

Eh. Not exactly how it went, but it's true that had Mussolini managed to stay away from Hitler - like Franco - we'd have remained a fascist dictatorship for at least another decade or two. Bringing us into the war was mussolini's fatal mistake, the country started turning on him very quickly afterwards. Nobody, not even Mussolini in fact, actually wanted to get involved. Mussolini was scared of Hitler's reaction if we didn't join them and thought he work as a sort of mediator between germany and GB to bring to war to a close quickly. But then GB wanted no part of an armistice with Germany, Japan bombed Pearl Harbor and the rest is history


As for the topic at hand: there is absolutely no way these people didn't know or realize what they were doing. This was very much intentional. My guess is they didn't realize how big of negative reaction they'd get

He wanted the Roman Empire back and thought Germany were his best shot at getting it.

Anyway, as you say that's for another topic.

 

[devilish]

I always chuckle when I see all the WW2 memorials and anti Hitler/Fascist statues in Italy. It's like they forgot they were on his side! Until they realised he wasn't going to win, anyway.

I don't think Italy is racist, not overly anyway. Nothing like in comparison to some other places I have lived and worked. They are just very proud of being Italian and look down on anybody who is not. I hear far worse things said about the French (who they particularly loathe) or the Swiss than I do about anybody from Asia or Africa.

Italy's stance of changing sides when it was convenient is older than WW2. It also happened in WW1 as well. Italy was meant to fight on Germany side but it switched sides because the allies promised a better deal.

Italy has three big issues. First of all they love the macho man who hates details. Mussolini, Grillo, Berlusconi and Salvini are classic examples of that. Secondly they tend to idolize anyone who was born northern to their village/city while looking down at anyone born southern to their village. Which means Africans tend to get a raw deal. Finally they never took responsibility of the incredible damage fascism had done to the world. In their world, Mussolini wasn't a bad guy but was lead by the nose by Hitler. TBF the amount of migrants reaching Italy's shores are beyond ridiculous and Italy does need tangible help on that regard.

 

[devilish]

Eh. Not exactly how it went, but it's true that had Mussolini managed to stay away from Hitler - like Franco - we'd have remained a fascist dictatorship for at least another decade or two. Bringing us into the war was mussolini's fatal mistake, the country started turning on him very quickly afterwards. Nobody, not even Mussolini in fact, actually wanted to get involved. Mussolini was scared of Hitler's reaction if we didn't join them and thought he work as a sort of mediator between germany and GB to bring to war to a close quickly. But then GB wanted no part of an armistice with Germany, Japan bombed Pearl Harbor and the rest is history


As for the topic at hand: there is absolutely no way these people didn't know or realize what they were doing. This was very much intentional. My guess is they didn't realize how big of negative reaction they'd get

Mussolini joined the war for two reasons. First of all he felt that Italy was mistreated by the West by not allowing it to increase its colonies. Secondly he believed that Hitler won the war and he wanted a piece of the cake. As Mussolini himself once declared Italy deserved il 'suo posto al sole'. Hitler loved Mussolini. He even sent forces to free him from hostage. There's no way that Hitler would have deposed him.

 

[giorno]

Mussolini joined the war for two reasons. First of all he felt that Italy was mistreated by the West by not allowing it to increase its colonies. Secondly he believed that Hitler won the war and he wanted a piece of the cake. As Mussolini himself once declared Italy deserved il 'suo posto al sole'. Hitler loved Mussolini. He even sent forces to free him from hostage. There's no way that Hitler would have deposed him.

Hitler loved Mussolini because Mussolini was pretty much his lapdog. Mussolini was genuinely scared of pissing Hitler off, saw entering the war as both an opportunity but also a necessity to avoid the risk of german reprisals. But that's Mussolini. Even his closed circle tried to stop him from entering the war. Personal affections and fear of germany were the only things that kept him in power as long as he did at the time. Pretty much from the moment Mussolini hitched his ride to Germany(and that goes before the war even, with the anti-jewish laws) his position dependend on Hitler's support. Which is not to say that fascism depended on that, had Mussolini been offed before the war he would have been replaced by another "gerarca" and the country would remained under dictatorship, most likely.

Italy's problem is and has always been apathy. We as a people just generally don't care. About anything. So long as i got mine, nothing else matters

 

[RedC]

I'd say it's more a lack of education.

Do you honestly think they've taken that photo to take the piss or be abusive? I don't. They're obviously on some sort of pre season in Asia? she's wearing the hat and mimicking being Asian.

I'd say she thinks it's just trying to fit in and be like "hey look im asian too" - but obviously people can find it offensive and she should have been advised it's a terrible idea.

I'd be surprised if the gesture had any sort of hateful reasons behind it though. It seems Italy needs a big relook at how they educate on racial issues.



By pulling your eyes like that it makes them look more asian. Japanese/chinese/koreans are known to have eyes that are shaped differently. Some people used to use this gesture to be hateful or take the piss out of somebody.

Between this nonsense, and your take in another thread about having loads of mates that say dodgy stuff but don't really mean it, I think you need to take a step back, and possibly consider that you don't take racism seriously.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Between this nonsense, and your take in another thread about having loads of mates that say dodgy stuff but don't really mean it, I think you need to take a step back, and possibly consider that you don't take racism seriously.

What exactly is your problem? how is anything I've said me no taking it seriously I think you're the one that needs to take a step back - unfortunately the world isn't full of sunshine and rainbows.

Education is clearly needed to avoid these type of situations happening. I guarantee you lots of people wouldn't even realise doing that sort of mimickry would even be offensive. The fact that Juventus posted a picture showing that is exactly my point!

 

[Peter van der Gea]

What exactly is your problem? how is anything I've said me no taking it seriously I think you're the one that needs to take a step back - unfortunately the world isn't full of sunshine and rainbows.

Education is clearly needed to avoid these type of situations happening. I guarantee you lots of people wouldn't even realise doing that sort of mimickry would even be offensive. The fact that Juventus posted a picture showing that is exactly my point!

I think the problem is by saying its just ignorance or lack of education is minimising the simple fact that even a child knows mocking, or "mimicking" as you like to call it, is rude. To do it about something that is out of one's control is doubley rude. You wouldn't mock a person born without legs would you? You've got as much choice in that as you do it with your skin colour.

Why do think it's necessary for a grown ass adult to be educated not to be rude to a billion plus people?!

Or, you just want to be able to use the ignorance excuse for you and mates.

 

[Adam-Utd]

I think the problem is by saying its just ignorance or lack of education is minimising the simple fact that even a child knows mocking, or "mimicking" as you like to call it, is rude. To do it about something that is out of one's control is doubley rude. You wouldn't mock a person born without legs would you? You've got as much choice in that as you do it with your skin colour.

Why do think it's necessary for a grown ass adult to be educated not to be rude to a billion plus people?!

Or, you just want to be able to use the ignorance excuse for you and mates.

people do do it though don’t they? the fact we’re even discussing it shows it’s a thing.

For some reason everybody on here act like angels that live perfect lives and don’t know anybody who’ve done bad or stupid things. maybe you’re all too cowardly to admit it.

Children definitely don’t know it’s rude to do that either without being educated first.

Don’t you dare label me as ignorant either for having an honest discussion.

 

[sillwuka]

Still no apology from the player behind all of this, Cecilia Salvia.. lost for words.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

people do do it though don’t they? the fact we’re even discussing it shows it’s a thing.

For some reason everybody on here act like angels that live perfect lives and don’t know anybody who’ve done bad or stupid things. maybe you’re all too cowardly to admit it.

Children definitely don’t know it’s rude to do that either without being educated first.

Don’t you dare label me as ignorant either for having an honest discussion.

I didn't label you as ignorant, it was much worse than that, I implying that you are using ignorance in a cynical way to disguise your racist remarks. Possibly.

And just because people do something, doesn't make it right or acceptable. People should have the simple common sense not to do mean things.

Do you have kids? They tend to know mocking someone is rude, because they don't like it happening to them. They normally work it out by 3. Its called empathy.

I've not lived a perfect, far from it, but I've never mocked someone because of their race. If you have, then sorry, you've been racist, maybe you're too cowardly to admit it

 

[FreddieTheReddie]

I didn't label you as ignorant, it was much worse than that, I implying that you are using ignorance in a cynical way to disguise your racist remarks. Possibly.

And just because people do something, doesn't make it right or acceptable. People should have the simple common sense not to do mean things.

Do you have kids? They tend to know mocking someone is rude, because they don't like it happening to them. They normally work it out by 3. Its called empathy.

I've not lived a perfect, far from it, but I've never mocked someone because of their race. If you have, then sorry, you've been racist, maybe you're too cowardly to admit it

But who write the rules? There are even Asians who wouldn’t consider it racist and there are others who think it’s offensive. I get why you think it’s racist, but many people don’t maybe because they don’t know the history of this gesture.

I met black guys from Brazil who were very comfortable about their colour they were constantly making jokes of coffee or chocolate and they didn’t mind white guys doing the same. And I knew a black guy from France, he took it very seriously, he said chocolate jokes arr unacceptable (I was just asking about his opinion didn’t say anything myself). So if someone is not so sensitive or grew up in an environment where these jokes were accepted, they are going to be labelled racist. Even if there was no bad intention.

 

[Adam-Utd]

I didn't label you as ignorant, it was much worse than that, I implying that you are using ignorance in a cynical way to disguise your racist remarks. Possibly.

And just because people do something, doesn't make it right or acceptable. People should have the simple common sense not to do mean things.

Do you have kids? They tend to know mocking someone is rude, because they don't like it happening to them. They normally work it out by 3. Its called empathy.

I've not lived a perfect, far from it, but I've never mocked someone because of their race. If you have, then sorry, you've been racist, maybe you're too cowardly to admit it

Your high horse act is frankly pathetic. You try and label me as a racist with zero weight behind it? seriously get fecked. How exactly does saying people need educating make me racist? weird man

But who write the rules? There are even Asians who wouldn’t consider it racist and there are others who think it’s offensive. I get why you think it’s racist, but many people don’t maybe because they don’t know the history of this gesture.

I met black guys from Brazil who were very comfortable about their colour they were constantly making jokes of coffee or chocolate and they didn’t mind white guys doing the same. And I knew a black guy from France, he took it very seriously, he said chocolate jokes arr unacceptable (I was just asking about his opinion didn’t say anything myself). So if someone is not so sensitive or grew up in an environment where these jokes were accepted, they are going to be labelled racist. Even if there was no bad intention.

Somebody with their head screwed on!

 

[NotThatSoph]

Why can't I be serious? I don't know what it implies and would appreciate an explanation.

Before I or someone else try to explain, do you think she's just doing something random with her face or do you think she's doing something specific that isn't mimicking a "slit-eyed" person wearing a rice hat?

 

[The Original]

Before I or someone else try to explain, do you think she's just doing something random with her face or do you think she's doing something specific that isn't mimicking a "slit-eyed" person wearing a rice hat?

I literally have no idea and no thoughts whatsoever. If the Asian connection was not mentioned, I would have seen that pic and had no thoughts about it at all...Now you seem to imply that she's mimicking slit-eyed persons as a mockery of Asians, but I still don't get what the gesture she's making with her arms would imply. Like I said, I'm from a different culture so some things might not be as obvious.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

But who write the rules? There are even Asians who wouldn’t consider it racist and there are others who think it’s offensive. I get why you think it’s racist, but many people don’t maybe because they don’t know the history of this gesture.

I met black guys from Brazil who were very comfortable about their colour they were constantly making jokes of coffee or chocolate and they didn’t mind white guys doing the same. And I knew a black guy from France, he took it very seriously, he said chocolate jokes arr unacceptable (I was just asking about his opinion didn’t say anything myself). So if someone is not so sensitive or grew up in an environment where these jokes were accepted, they are going to be labelled racist. Even if there was no bad intention.

Then you err on the side of caution and don't mock someone for their race, pretty easy I think

 

[matherto]

But who write the rules? There are even Asians who wouldn’t consider it racist and there are others who think it’s offensive. I get why you think it’s racist, but many people don’t maybe because they don’t know the history of this gesture.

I met black guys from Brazil who were very comfortable about their colour they were constantly making jokes of coffee or chocolate and they didn’t mind white guys doing the same. And I knew a black guy from France, he took it very seriously, he said chocolate jokes arr unacceptable (I was just asking about his opinion didn’t say anything myself). So if someone is not so sensitive or grew up in an environment where these jokes were accepted, they are going to be labelled racist. Even if there was no bad intention.

So you had consent from those people to crack jokes.

When you do something silly like Juve did on Twitter there is no consent.

Of course there’ll be people of different ethnicities that are happy to have some digs at themselves or other ethnicities in a comfortable environment where everybody knows each other. That’s personal choice and friendship with solid intentions.

The rules for PR are a general ‘don’t hurt anybody’ with an err to the side of caution surely?

 

[Peter van der Gea]

Your high horse act is frankly pathetic. You try and label me as a racist with zero weight behind it? seriously get fecked. How exactly does saying people need educating make me racist? weird man
Somebody with their head screwed on!

You're excusing a racist act as ignorance. She's a grown woman who has no reason at all to be mocking a whole race of people. You aredefending racism.

And if being on my high horse means I don't accept the same worn out justifications for another act of racism, so be it, you can stay in the gutter with your racist compadres

 

[Withnail]

I literally have no idea and no thoughts whatsoever. If the Asian connection was not mentioned, I would have seen that pic and had no thoughts about it at all...Now you seem to imply that she's mimicking slit-eyed persons as a mockery of Asians, but I still don't get what the gesture she's making with her arms would imply. Like I said, I'm from a different culture so some things might not be as obvious.

It's not actually possible for this to be a serious post.

What do you mean arm gesture?? The arms are only propping up the hands so that the fingers can make the clearly racist squinty eyes.

 

[The Original]

It's not actually possible for this to be a serious post.

What do you mean arm gesture?? The arms are only propping up the hands so that the fingers can make the clearly racist squinty eyes.

Ok

 

[NotThatSoph]

I literally have no idea and no thoughts whatsoever. If the Asian connection was not mentioned, I would have seen that pic and had no thoughts about it at all...Now you seem to imply that she's mimicking slit-eyed persons as a mockery of Asians, but I still don't get what the gesture she's making with her arms would imply. Like I said, I'm from a different culture so some things might not be as obvious.

What are you talking about? She's using her arms to make her eyes slit-eyed, because her eyes aren't like that. You're trolling, surely.

 

[Withnail]

Ok

Are you seriously telling me you don't understand what I've said?

 

[The Original]

Are you seriously telling me you don't understand what I've said?

I think "ok" implies the opposite?

 

[The Original]

What are you talking about? She's using her arms to make her eyes slit-eyed, because her eyes aren't like that. You're trolling, surely.

Really wasn't. I saw the photo just once in the morning so I was going off what I remembered and I hadn't noticed that detail the first time. Anyway, thanks.

 

[Lj82]

You cant possibly be serious?

As an Asian living in Asia, I actually didn't know about the whole "Asian have slanted eyes" stereotype until I grew up. So if someone had tried to insult me using that stereotype when I was a kid, it would have just flew past me.

The fact is, majority of us Chinese Singaporean don't even have slanted eyes to begin with. (I just went to the washroom to check the mirror. My eyes are far from slanted.) When I was studying in the US, a classmate of mine who is a Chinese Singaporean like me had this insult thrown at her. A white woman stood in front of her and said "your eyes are slanted, get it?". It actually took my classmate a while before she understood what was happening.

Culturally, the "phoenix eye" (凤眼) is considered a beautiful feature. This can be seen with from the Chinese opera make up for female leads which deliberately highlights the slanted eyes. HOWEVER, the post by the juve player is clearly intended as a mockery, based on a longstanding stereotype. And that is obviously offensive, as was what my classmate faced.

 

[The Firestarter]

As an Asian living in Asia, I actually didn't know about the whole "Asian have slanted eyes" stereotype until I grew up. So if someone had tried to insult me using that stereotype when I was a kid, it would have just flew past me.

The fact is, majority of us Chinese Singaporean don't even have slanted eyes to begin with. (I just went to the washroom to check the mirror. My eyes are far from slanted.) When I was studying in the US, a classmate of mine who is a Chinese Singaporean like me had this insult thrown at her. A white woman stood in front of her and said "your eyes are slanted, get it?". It actually took my classmate a while before she understood what was happening.

Culturally, the "phoenix eye" (凤眼) is considered a beautiful feature. This can be seen with from the Chinese opera make up for female leads which deliberately highlights the slanted eyes. HOWEVER, the post by the juve player is clearly intended as a mockery, based on a longstanding stereotype. And that is obviously offensive, as was what my classmate faced.

Thanks, interesting perspective!

 

[Adam-Utd]

You're excusing a racist act as ignorance. She's a grown woman who has no reason at all to be mocking a whole race of people. You aredefending racism.

And if being on my high horse means I don't accept the same worn out justifications for another act of racism, so be it, you can stay in the gutter with your racist compadres

Because that's exactly what it is? Are you really stupid enough to think a high profile Italian club is going to post a racist photo on purpose?

Clearly they don't realise what they were doing is bad or could upset people, hence why I said EDUCATION is needed.

The fact you keep mentioning my previous post shows how petty you are, are you telling me you've never known anybody or had a friend that's said or done anything remotely dodgy? pull the other one it's not fooling anybody.

 

[giorno]

She's a 20/30 something woman in italy in 2021. To be clear: there is *zero* chance she didn't know the gesture is offensive. Likewise, there is zero chance juventus social media manager didn't know either

 

[FreddieTheReddie]

She's a 20/30 something woman in italy in 2021. To be clear: there is *zero* chance she didn't know the gesture is offensive. Likewise, there is zero chance juventus social media manager didn't know either

So they were deliberately being racist and did so on the club’s official account.

 

[GueRed]

Imagine defending the racist scumbags who posted that image.

Think we outed some racists again on here

 

[giorno]

So they were deliberately being racist and did so on the club’s official account.

I believe so, yeah. My guess is either they posted the wrong picture, or they figured it wouldn't be a big deal

 

[R'hllor]

fecking eastern European club man and they not even hiding it.

 

[tenpoless]

That particular juventus women fc player is surely a racist or very ignorant. She probably doesnt even know where Italy is on the world map. Living in a bubble like its 1960.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

Because that's exactly what it is? Are you really stupid enough to think a high profile Italian club is going to post a racist photo on purpose?

Clearly they don't realise what they were doing is bad or could upset people, hence why I said EDUCATION is needed.

The fact you keep mentioning my previous post shows how petty you are, are you telling me you've never known anybody or had a friend that's said or done anything remotely dodgy? pull the other one it's not fooling anybody.

No, it's not ignorance, it's not caring about the person you're mocking, they don't need to be educated, they just have to be nicer people.

You don't have to be educated to not be a cnut, otherwise the working class would all be horrible and all toffs the nicest people in the world.

I literally just said in a my reply to your quote that I am far from perfect, I have been a cnut, but I haven't ever been racist, because to win an argument by insulting someone for something that they have no control over is no win at all. If any of my friends have ever gone down that line, I've called them out on it and made it clear I don't want to see it again.