Queen Elizabeth II | 1926-2022 | Rest in Peace

Wait, people are saying the queen visiting Ireland in 2012 and shaking McGuinness and Adams hand‘s played a part in the peace process?
 
neverdie said:
let's recap. my entire point is that the queen had little to no decision making power, or agency, in matters of state affairs. others want to credit her with the peace process. i'm saying she had no real tangible role in this beyond a symbolic appearance. others say she decided to go there. i'm saying she went because she was head of state and it was expected of her to do what the government of the day demanded.

in other words, i've outlined how constitutional monarchy tends to work and others have outlined scenarios in which the queen solved the northern ireland problem, presumably in-between freeing mandela from prison and whatever else was on the other side of her post-90s agenda.
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You have no idea if she could have declined to do any of the things she did or if she was, as you allude to, forced to do them.

It’s a pointless argument which you’re using to push your views with other posters because of your own agenda. Just leave it and move on.
 
TheReligion said:
One poster said it above yes
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It’s obviously nonsense. It was a nice, symbolic visit where she did all the right things but his timelines are ALL wrong.

My main recollection of that visit was “ah sure there’s the queen, that’s nice”. The majority of people didn’t care, it was mostly people who loved the Royals that showed up.
 
TheReligion said:
You have no idea if she could have declined to do any of the things she did or if she was, as you allude to, forced to do them.
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that's what the entire job is about, doing what is requested of you. it's the literal reason she's being praised on bbc nonstop for having been so apolitical her whole reign and having stayed out of politics entirely. that is, for having done exactly what constitutional monarchism says on the fecking tin. which is what i'm saying she did.
 
neverdie said:
that's what the entire job is about, doing what is requested of you. it's the literal reason she's being praised on bbc nonstop for having been so apolitical her whole reign and having stayed out of politics entirely. that is, for having done exactly what constitutional monarchism says on the fecking tin. which is what i'm saying she did.
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You didn’t quote my whole post;

‘It’s a pointless argument which you’re using to push your views with other posters because of your own agenda. Just leave it and move on’
 
Carolina Red said:
Literally nobody has said that until just now, when you did.
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Deery said:
did a lot for the peace process here.
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Deery said:
She was big enough to shake hands with the supposedly head of the IRA which murdered her cousin that was really something and a state visit to Ireland.
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here is someone who says she did a lot for the peace process. about 15 years after the good friday agreement, mind you. and my point was that as constitutional monarch her symbolic visit was requested by the government and she complied. not difficult to understand i would have thought. a nice symbolic meeting decided by the government and agreed to, as expected, by the head of state.
 
With a day to reflect on it, I think she deserves a lot of credit for putting herself in second place behind what she thought were the best interests of the royal institution and therefore the country, and we will miss that. The rest of them, Charles especially, are only out for themselves and with a bit of luck his greed will start to unravel the whole thing.

It is a sad day for the country to have lost its figurehead, and sad that a family lost its oldest member, but I'm sure everybody will be sick of the competitive mourning we're going to see over the next week or two.
 
TheReligion said:
‘It’s a pointless argument which you’re using to push your views with other posters because of your own agenda. Just leave it and move on’
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that makes no sense. all arguments involve someone pushing a view and advancing an agenda. if we left it and moved on we wouldn't have a ce forum.
 
Massive Spanner said:
It’s obviously nonsense. It was a nice, symbolic visit where she did all the right things but his timelines are ALL wrong.

My main recollection of that visit was “ah sure there’s the queen, that’s nice”. The majority of people didn’t care, it was mostly people who loved the Royals that showed up.
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I don’t think there’s any argument about the specifics of the visit. Just @Deery mentioned it was something that endeared her to him so to speak. Could be wrong though.
 
Carolina Red said:
Not the “peace process” as in negotiating the GFA, going back in time would be hard, but the normalization process that came after.
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But Deery said the peace process specifically?

I don’t know about that either. I’ve lived in Ireland for 34 years mate, visited NI many times a year, have plenty of friends from NI. The Queen visiting and shaking a few hands and speaking a bit of Irish didn’t do feck all.
 
neverdie said:
here is someone who says she did a lot for the peace process. about 15 years after the good friday agreement, mind you. and my point was that as constitutional monarch her symbolic visit was requested by the government and she complied. not difficult to understand i would have thought. a nice symbolic meeting decided by the government and agreed to, as expected, by the head of state.
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What @Deery posted is a damned far cry from “others have outlined scenarios in which the queen solved the northern ireland problem”.

I mean, wow.
 
Carolina Red said:
What @Deery posted is a damned far cry from “others have outlined scenarios in which the queen solved the northern ireland problem”.

I mean, wow.
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he said she played a role in the peace process. which had developed entirely without her and been cemented via the gfa 15 years before she shook hands with the people he mentions, by diktat of the tory government of the day, too.
 
Massive Spanner said:
But Deery said the peace process specifically?

I don’t know about that either. I’ve lived in Ireland for 34 years mate, visited NI many times a year, have plenty of friends from NI. The Queen visiting and shaking a few hands and speaking a bit of Irish didn’t do feck all.
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I’m aware of what he posted, but I don’t believe he meant a state visit in 2012 got an agreement in 1998-1999 passed. Context tells me he’s referring to the time of normalization of relations after the agreement.

And it might not have done feck all with people you know, but it did with him, and like
I posted earlier, unless they’re lying, it did with the leadership of Sinn Fein at the time as well.
 
TheReligion said:
You’re arguing (oddly) about how another poster viewed her visit to his country. Why?
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i'm debating the idea that the queen had a role to play in the peace process. doesn't seem odd to me, unless you agree that she was somehow fundamental to that which would be nonsense.
 
neverdie said:
he said she played a role in the peace process. which had developed entirely without her and been cemented via the gfa 15 years before she shook hands with the people he mentions, by diktat of the tory government of the day, too.
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You’re being absurdly pedantic and ignoring every bit of context to try and keep banging on your “I hate the institution not the person” drum.
 
Carolina Red said:
You’re being absurdly pedantic and ignoring every bit of context to try and keep banging on your “I hate the institution not the person” drum.
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i mean, you just tried to pretend that the royal family were working class in the context of the soviet state and that people were not considered property according to slavery. so i don't think i'm the one being pedantic here.
 
neverdie said:
i mean, you just tried to pretend that the royal family were working class in the context of the soviet state and that people were not considered property according to slavery. so i don't think i'm the one being pedantic here.
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You quite literally are. You know as well as I do that he didn’t mean she time traveled on her 2012 state trip.
 
Carolina Red said:
I’m aware of what he posted, but I don’t believe he meant a state visit in 2012 got an agreement in 1998-1999 passed. Context tells me he’s referring to the time of normalization of relations after the agreement.
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Well, fine, say he did, then… what part did she play in the peace process? Almost all of her visits to NI were AFTER the GFA had already been signed. She had nothing to do with it. I’m not disrespecting her or her role in the world but it’s total bullshit, he needs to read up on his Irish history, frankly. The idea that a monarch with no political power was partly responsible for resolving one of the most long running and complex conflicts of modern times is laughable. And don’t go on about normalisation again, because he specifically said the peace process, not what happened after.
 
Massive Spanner said:
Well, fine, say he did, then… what part did she play in the peace process? Almost all of her visits to NI were AFTER the GFA had already been signed. She had nothing to do with it. I’m not disrespecting her or her role in the world but it’s total bullshit, he needs to read up on his Irish history, frankly. The idea that a monarch with no political power was partly responsible for resolving one of the most long running and complex conflicts of modern times is laughable. And don’t go on about normalisation again, because he specifically said the peace process, not what happened after.
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I’ll go on about it all I want because context tells me that’s what he means. Now, he could come back on and say I’m wrong, and so be it, but I think he’s referring to the decade or so after the GFA, not before it, because I don’t believe that @Deery believes in time travel.
 
Carolina Red said:
I’ll go on about it all I want because context tells me that’s what he means. Now, he could come back on and say I’m wrong, and so be it, but I think he’s referring to the decade or so after the GFA, not before it, because I don’t believe that @Deery believes in time travel.
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What are you even on about now? He said peace process, then you started harping on about the normalisation process long after the peace process. I think you’re just in a muddle now trying to defend his ridiculous statement. Actually, why are you even defending it?

It doesn’t matter what events or years he’s referring to, saying the queen played a part in the peace process is BULLSHIT.
 
neverdie said:
i'm debating the idea that the queen had a role to play in the peace process. doesn't seem odd to me, unless you agree that she was somehow fundamental to that which would be nonsense.
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What is there to debate when you’re telling everyone how it is?
 
Massive Spanner said:
Well, fine, say he did, then… what part did she play in the peace process? Almost all of her visits to NI were AFTER the GFA had already been signed. She had nothing to do with it. I’m not disrespecting her or her role in the world but it’s total bullshit, he needs to read up on his Irish history, frankly. The idea that a monarch with no political power was partly responsible for resolving one of the most long running and complex conflicts of modern times is laughable. And don’t go on about normalisation again, because he specifically said the peace process, not what happened after.
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You’re obviously not from here and don’t understand the significance it made to people was a massive stepping stone in reconciliation here and the peace process is an ongoing thing not stopped in 98.
 
Massive Spanner said:
What are you even on about now? He said peace process, then you started harping on about the normalisation process long after the peace process. I think you’re just in a muddle now trying to defend his ridiculous statement. Actually, why are you even defending it?
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No, I’m not in a muddle, I just happen to have read the multiple posts he made in the thread after the single line you’re fixated on referencing the events of the 2010s and not the 1990s. Call me crazy, but that’s how “context clues” work.
 
Deery said:
You’re obviously not from here and don’t understand the significance it made to people was a massive stepping stone in reconciliation here and the peace process is an ongoing thing not stopped in 98.
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Actually the end of the peace process, technically, was 2007. I'm very happy to be educated in the difference she made up until that point in it?
Carolina Red said:
No, I’m not in a muddle, I just happen to have read the multiple posts he made in the thread after the single line you’re fixated on referencing the events of the 2010s and not the 1990s. Call me crazy, but that’s how “context clues” work.
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His latest post doesn't seem to suggest it was about the 90's now does it?

Also, it couldn't be, because she did absolutely nothing back then.
 
Massive Spanner said:
Actually the end of the peace process, technically, was 2007. I'm very happy to be educated in the difference she made up until that point in it?

His latest post doesn't seem to suggest it was about the 90's now does it?

Also, it couldn't be, because she did absolutely nothing back then.
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Throughout the peace process she led by example in building relationships with those of us who are Irish, and who share a different political allegiance and aspirations to herself and her Government. 3/4
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Not my words just Michelle O’Neill.
 
Massive Spanner said:
His latest post doesn't seem to suggest it was about the 90's now does it?

Also, it couldn't be, because she did absolutely nothing back then.
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These weren’t about the 90s either…
Deery said:
She was big enough to shake hands with the supposedly head of the IRA which murdered her cousin that was really something and a state visit to Ireland.
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Deery said:
If someone murdered a member of your family would you feel compelled to shake their hand just because your boss asked you to? No you wouldn’t but if you seen it as for the greater good you just might.
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Deery said:
She took a very brave stance on something that was easily very hard to do to reconcile with the people of Ireland.
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Anyway, for people who think it means nothing to those outside the UK - I just went up to our village in the middle of nowhere in Italy, and a very old lady approached me to talk about the Queen. She said it was all over the news and in the papers (which it is), and that it was very sad.
 
Penna said:
Anyway, for people who think it means nothing to those outside the UK - I just went up to our village in the middle of nowhere in Italy, and a very old lady approached me to talk about the Queen. She said it was all over the news and in the papers (which it is), and that it was very sad.
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The opening NFL game was tonight in Los Angeles. They paid her a moment of silence before kickoff.
 
Penna said:
Anyway, for people who think it means nothing to those outside the UK - I just went up to our village in the middle of nowhere in Italy, and a very old lady approached me to talk about the Queen. She said it was all over the news and in the papers (which it is), and that it was very sad.
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The more people say nobody cares about something, the more people actually care.
 
Penna said:
Anyway, for people who think it means nothing to those outside the UK - I just went up to our village in the middle of nowhere in Italy, and a very old lady approached me to talk about the Queen. She said it was all over the news and in the papers (which it is), and that it was very sad.
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Some people seem offended that other people care. Not sure why.
 
horsechoker said:
The more people say nobody cares about something, the more people actually care.
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I would say many millions of people care, to varying extents. It's a significant moment in history, the passing of the Old Guard. It's like when the last man to fight in the First World War died. She represented a different time and different values.

edit - I remember the final days of Winston Churchill, his doctor used to appear on TV to give little updates. I remember watching his funeral. It was a significant occasion and these things don't happen often in any one lifetime.
 
Deery said:
Not my words just Michelle O’Neill.
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You’ve also got Gerry Adams saying…
"It brings our journey of relationship building within this island and between these islands onto a new plane… I think the vast majority of unionists will be pleased this happened because they know it was essentially a real gesture towards their sense of identity and their sense of allegiance… I think she played a leadership role and is playing a leadership role in the whole context of the need for reconciliation.”
 
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