Nope he’s a bigot.
Protests following the killing of George Floyd
- Thread starter Abizzz
- Start date
Nope he’s a bigot.
Its incredibly simplistic and dangerous, they have the self righteousness and moral upper hand by stating their educating themselves however simultaneously have already taken a political position on this. im assuming since you support 'Black lives matter' going by this logic im a racist and your not. Oh and also I don't know if you know you, PG tips and Yorkshire tea have joined in into dismantling capitalism. Maybe people should educate themselves on 'Black lives matter' mission statement https://uk.gofundme.com/f/ukblm-fund
Quite a lot of it judging by this post including this gem "black people need to do a better job at not killing their own as well. I believe a police officer can't value a black life because the value of a black life is being reduced every day due to black on black violence."
I have a lot of questions & issues with this post but I’ll hold back on wading in.
Why are you critical of the movement?
You mention there is a ‘correct way’ & that you’ll give them a pass for their illegal actions which is really nice of you but you do understand the differences between Protestors, Rioters & Looters - video below for reference.
You’re correct you don’t have to be racist to be against these protests but BLM have been going for some time now - I’m just not sure how someone can be critical of people saying a black life matters.
What about the mission statement offends you?
It varies. Down the street from me, someone had a giant Mexico flag at the last BLM protests to show their support of a common cause. Down in Texas, a Hispanic man was chasing protesters with a chainsaw.
You cannot lump Latinos into one generalization any more so than you can us gringos.
Poor guys
Aren't those words just the absolute height of irony, considering both the historical and contemporary context?
It's like a question from one of those crap "who said this?" quizzes designed to catch you out.
"Let's face it, folks - the perpetrators are actually the victims." It's pure lawyer-logic.
Thank you very much. What is encouraging to me as an outsider is how many Caucasians are joining the anti discrimination protest. It's beyond black lives matter now to me. It's seems it's a civil rights movement that's coming from all the decent people in the USA.
There was an interview of an African American documentary maker who got pepper sprayed in the eye while filming and he had his press pass prominently displayed.
He said what made him happy was it was the white protestors who helped him immediately and gave him first aid and it was white medics ( volunteers) who attended to him. He said there were so many white protestors that he was very encouraged by what is happening in the US.
Any steps in the right direction would be most welcome.
ok to your last point I wouldn't use the word offends but I disagree with bringing down capitalism
Thier illegal actions because https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52909814 just for reference
Im not sure of the relevance why you showing the video if im honest?
Im not critical of someone saying 'a black life matters' of course not, all races matter but its the actual movement BLM im critical of it, it has immense flaws and from it's mission demonstrates its clearly a political organisation that I cant follow.
Poor guys
Ah the good ol NYPD, always considered as the biggest gang in New York but they’re just misunderstood, they’re actually the victims in all this.
Your penultimate sentence is is such a doozie that it stands out above the rest of your nonsense by some margin.
I’ve taken in a lot of Akala’s interviews recently & he touches on the ‘black on black crime’ defence quite a lot in them.
He’s far more eloquent than I am so watch from 3.40 onwards. . .
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-black-violence-narrative-is-rooted-in-empire
https://www.mothersincharge.org/ is one of countless community projects in America which have long been attempting to address the issues that plagued their neighbourhoods - such as crime amongst its inhabitants [black on black crime to you]. You’re either not looking for the initiatives or you don’t know about them because you only become interested in the topics when someone shouts Black Lives Matter & you try to find exclusion.
When a white person kills a white person do we say there is a white on white crime problem or is it just a crime?
Police are there to ‘protect & serve’, if black people are killing each other they should be protecting them not kneeling on their windpipes for 9 minutes.
Oh really. . .
https://www.300menmarch.com/
Violence is an issue in America, you know kind of like school shootings - A white on everybody crime - the black on black trope is one you can’t simply point to stats on.
Good post. Far more patient than I could be.
Policing is pretty thankless really and it's easy to get downbeat when some of the most vocal are those who wish to judge and criticise without ever walking a day in the shoes. Fortunately I've realised that there's still huge public support and respect for the police within the UK it's just you don't necessarily 'see' it. It is there though without a doubt.
I think it's worth some considering that the same officers you clapped on a Thursday were the same ones you were throwing bottles and fireworks at the following week. They were also the same ones that responded to London Bridge, Borough Market, Manchester Arena. The same ones that were doing CPR on blown up children and tackling murderous knife welding terrorists with a baton..
Yes it's the job and yes it's what they are paid to do but ultimately they are all human beings and perhaps they deserve a little bit more respect than being collectively called racists, scum, bastards and whatever else. Just a thought mind.
Ok.
Can you suggest a more suitable form of [for lack of a better word] retaliation?
Some Civil Rights protests were deemed illegal btw.
We were all privy to the pictures/video of people taking in the sun at British hotspots some weeks back. People were, rightly so, called idiots but I didn’t see certain moralist RedCafe members leaning on legal jargon then. . . interesting.
I personally won’t be going to mass gatherings for some time but having posted a video of a 62 year old man being tazed in his own home by British police earlier I’m not surprised people are flouting ‘the law’ on this issue.
This whole Covid situation has highlighted that a vast majority of the British public are terrible at following rules but let’s really clamp down now eh.
At the beginning of the video she breaks down the rather stark difference between Protesters, Rioters & Looters - you quite obviously need a breakdown as BLM protesters wouldn’t be doing any of what you claim below.
In Birmingham 4000 people turned up did their bit & went home yet you mention isolated incidents involving a minority of attendants at some protests.
I’ve not been to any but know someone who attended a peaceful, social distanced protest in Yeovil. . . no mobs, no injuring police or any of your other emotive rhetoric.
But the message is somehow muddled to you.
Yes, All Races Matter but why is it they only matter when someone says black lives do. Where were the All Lives Matter brigade when Breonna Taylor was shot in her own home or when Ahmaud Arbery was lynched?
Let’s remove the races for a moment & look at an incident where a group of policeman murdered a man in public; where were the All Lives Matter brigade then?
Saying Black Loves Matter does not mean other lives don’t - we all know All Lives Matter people are just raising their concerns over a certain section but yes let’s label them an anti-capitalist movement & ignore the facts.
So back on topic.
You keep falling back on these ‘flaws’ [plural]. You’re anti-anti-capitalism, we’ve got that but what else about ‘it’s mission’ can you not follow?
BLM - We’re guided by a commitment to dismantle imperialism, capitalism, white-supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures that disproportionately harm black people in Britain and around the world.
Gib11 - No to anti-Capitalism!!
BLM - We’re guided by a commitment to dismantle imperialism, capitalism, white-supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures that disproportionately harm black people in Britain and around the world.
Gib11 - You said anti-capitalism so I cant agree with the rest!!
I rarely agree with anything wholeheartedly, we’re on a Manchester United forum where most members go back & forth over whether the right man is managing the team but to entrench yourself to one thing you don’t agree with when other initiatives are undeniably for a greater good means we’re not really debating in good faith.
A self proclaimed coalition of black activists and organisers & you’re bothered about their anti-capitalist tagline - if you fail to see why black people maybe opposed to a capitalist structure they helped build but see few rewards from then carry on being upset about statues being thrown in lakes.
@Leroy The Red & @TheReligion
As the resident police I’m aware of here & having read your last posts what do you think can be done by the police to help themselves? You know like we hear black communities being told to do.
Whilst we don’t see videos of shootings here it’s a daily occurrence where we see British a police not getting it quite right so what [from an internal perspective] can you do better?
As the resident police I’m aware of here & having read your last posts what do you think can be done by the police to help themselves? You know like we hear black communities being told to do.
Whilst we don’t see videos of shootings here it’s a daily occurrence where we see British a police not getting it quite right so what [from an internal perspective] can you do better?
Understandable, really, why they need a yearly budget in the billions, just imagine the payouts to victims in the next decade.
Reading this thread in the last few days highlights the chaos of the current world. The frustration I think goes deeper. Things seem to have boiled over now, I can't remember a time where people seemed more divided. Nobody seems to trust anyone anymore. All lives matter, there is no denying the injustice and prejudice taking place. If that's through racism, inequality, free speech and general mistrust of the people in charge.
I think the uncertainty of the future and people wanting real change is being felt. Lack of trust of leaders and law enforcement. This pandemic has been the trigger to problems that have been going on for a long time. There were people that thought this time would unite us, it certainly doesn't feel like it now. Maybe things do need to get worse before they can get better.
I think the uncertainty of the future and people wanting real change is being felt. Lack of trust of leaders and law enforcement. This pandemic has been the trigger to problems that have been going on for a long time. There were people that thought this time would unite us, it certainly doesn't feel like it now. Maybe things do need to get worse before they can get better.
A large part of those high costs is the result of outdated militarized policies and the failed War on Drugs. One aspect that should be changed is overtime. The overtime scam has long been a part of the overpriced police. After 9/11 the NYPD was spending about $2 million per day on overtime. In 2000, NYPD hit $237 million in overtime costs while the NYFD had $49 million in overtime and the Sanitation department only $23 million in overtime. In 2019 " sworn LAFD and LAPD employees received overtime in fiscal year 2019, earning an average of $27,737 per employee. " Firefighters, you can understand because there were tons of fires last year in SoCal. But the LAPD making that much in overtime is absurd. Citizens receive no return on investment for that kind of investment in police.
Part of the reason is militarization. " Many have noted that the Homeland Security programs encourage militarism in policing and that militarism in policing is a bad thing.197 Thinking about coercion costs helps show why. BearCats, other armored vehicles, and high-powered weaponry may sometimes decrease the use of force by the police. But other times this equipment will increase the chances that force will be used or increase the severity of force, resulting in additional physical harm and the connected costs of medical care, lost income, and pain and suffering that physical injuries entail. A department with an armored vehicle might reclassify ordinary warrant execution or other police-citizen encounters as high risk in light of available resources (and the need to maintain training on the equipment), subjecting citizens to the risk of increased harm, even when the risks to officers and the public are low.198 Thus, for example, the Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office in Arizona used two armored vehicles purchased with Urban Areas Security Initiative funds and a special weapons and tactics (SWAT) team to raid the house of a man suspected of cockfighting, a crime punishable by up to eighteen-months imprisonment."
The second obvious problem with police over the last 30 years has been a ridiculous amount of time and resources spent pursuing the failed "War on Drugs" and the prison industrial complex it incentivizes.
If we decriminalized drugs we could save a feck ton on unnecessary police. Shift the issue of drugs to public health where it belongs. "Cato Institute found that legalizing drugs would save the government roughly $41 billion a year in enforcing drug laws."
The carceral state that goes after marijuana smokers has been ridiculous:
Gee, thanks for spending billions locking up pot smokers while opiate deaths skyrocket:
So yeah de-militarize the police and de-criminalize drugs and we literally save billions of wasted money that goes only in the those who profit from the USA insane rates of incarceration: private prison owners, prison guards and police. We don't need as many cops as we have without the drug war and incentivizes of locking up everyone we can. We definitely don't need to be paying cops $27000/year in overtime while we have a massive homeless problem.
Here is some great work:
" At the same time, many communities attempted to benefit economically from mass incarceration by using prisons as a strategy for economic growth, making the incarceration system eerily similar to the system of slavery. Given all of the documented social and economic costs of mass incarceration (e.g., inferior labor market opportunities, increases in the racial disparity in HIV/AIDS, destruction of the family unit), it can be concluded that it has helped to maintain the economic hierarchy, predicated on race, in the United States "
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Poor guys
Poor sweet little snowflakes.
I wonder how many of them were seething in this clip by having to wear masks.
The news makes you think crime is always going up, but it's going down.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/10/17/facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/
If a black person commits a crime against a white person, historically in this country I live in, the black community would be made to suffer in many cases, and if caught the criminal is disproportionately punished, and if they don't catch the perpetrator the cops historically had no problem framing another black person. If a black person commits a crime against a black person the crime doesn't get investigated and the black community isn't targeted for retribution. Trevor Noah talks about it here:
Poor guys
NYPD are one of the worst departments in the country. They can get bent and do one.
The real culprits are white collar criminals. They do more damage than any of the criminals you and I can think of. We should be using our resources to hold them accountable.
It really depends. Some are super conservative and love the GOP to the point where they are practically American Nationalists. Most of my latinx friends are very much in support of the protests — some of them definitely supportive of the more extreme measures. The factors are also on the basis of class (working, middle, upper), political, and location. NYC latinxs are going to have a vast majority disliking the police.
More guillotines then.
lots of mis-direction and whataboutery.
The cops are at fault here and they need reforming, de-funding, whatever it is, to force change to a broken system.
The cops are at fault here and they need reforming, de-funding, whatever it is, to force change to a broken system.
More regionally, many conservative Latinos live in Miami, their ideology rooted, in part, by going Republican after JFK handled the Bay of Pigs.
Goes against 90% of the caf I think!
"The left" does have some troublesome elements, but its vastly overblown, especially when the other side has actual fascists and neo-nazis on it. With Brexit, Trump, Bolsenaro + loads of far right/authoritarian governments being formed all over Europe its no doubt the political pendulum has swung hard right the last couple of years
If you look on the "political correctness gone mad" thread here, yeah some of it is ridiculous and some of it is silly, but its not really the massive problem it being portrayed to be by some
Dude. It’s America.
We will run out of them really fast.
Not sure if this has been posted before but even if it has, it deserves to be seen again because it exposes the absurdity of modern policing and how copaganda has turned people's innate critical thinking skills to mush.
Whoa whoa there buddy, don't you dare think about touching my overtime! It's one of the best perks of the job.A large part of those high costs is the result of outdated militarized policies and the failed War on Drugs. One aspect that should be changed is overtime. The overtime scam has long been a part of the overpriced police. After 9/11 the NYPD was spending about $2 million per day on overtime. In 2000, NYPD hit $237 million in overtime costs while the NYFD had $49 million in overtime and the Sanitation department only $23 million in overtime. In 2019 " sworn LAFD and LAPD employees received overtime in fiscal year 2019, earning an average of $27,737 per employee. " Firefighters, you can understand because there were tons of fires last year in SoCal. But the LAPD making that much in overtime is absurd. Citizens receive no return on investment for that kind of investment in police.
Part of the reason is militarization. " Many have noted that the Homeland Security programs encourage militarism in policing and that militarism in policing is a bad thing.197 Thinking about coercion costs helps show why. BearCats, other armored vehicles, and high-powered weaponry may sometimes decrease the use of force by the police. But other times this equipment will increase the chances that force will be used or increase the severity of force, resulting in additional physical harm and the connected costs of medical care, lost income, and pain and suffering that physical injuries entail. A department with an armored vehicle might reclassify ordinary warrant execution or other police-citizen encounters as high risk in light of available resources (and the need to maintain training on the equipment), subjecting citizens to the risk of increased harm, even when the risks to officers and the public are low.198 Thus, for example, the Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office in Arizona used two armored vehicles purchased with Urban Areas Security Initiative funds and a special weapons and tactics (SWAT) team to raid the house of a man suspected of cockfighting, a crime punishable by up to eighteen-months imprisonment."
The second obvious problem with police over the last 30 years has been a ridiculous amount of time and resources spent pursuing the failed "War on Drugs" and the prison industrial complex it incentivizes.
If we decriminalized drugs we could save a feck ton on unnecessary police. Shift the issue of drugs to public health where it belongs. "Cato Institute found that legalizing drugs would save the government roughly $41 billion a year in enforcing drug laws."
The carceral state that goes after marijuana smokers has been ridiculous:
Gee, thanks for spending billions locking up pot smokers while opiate deaths skyrocket:
So yeah de-militarize the police and de-criminalize drugs and we literally save billions of wasted money that goes only in the those who profit from the USA insane rates of incarceration: private prison owners, prison guards and police. We don't need as many cops as we have without the drug war and incentivizes of locking up everyone we can. We definitely don't need to be paying cops $27000/year in overtime while we have a massive homeless problem.
Here is some great work:
" At the same time, many communities attempted to benefit economically from mass incarceration by using prisons as a strategy for economic growth, making the incarceration system eerily similar to the system of slavery. Given all of the documented social and economic costs of mass incarceration (e.g., inferior labor market opportunities, increases in the racial disparity in HIV/AIDS, destruction of the family unit), it can be concluded that it has helped to maintain the economic hierarchy, predicated on race, in the United States "
LAPD officers have been getting vacation days banked in-lieu of OT for years and only recently with their new contract got OT back. I obviously love my overtime, but looking at it objectively there is a lot of money put into it. Although it has been argued that for police and fire departments, it costs more to recruit and hire brand new employees, send them to academy/drill tower for months, and train them in the field in order to keep up with staffing levels. That's why a lot of smaller departments recruit and hire lateral officers that already have experience and completed probation. It should be noted however that a lot of the OT is not even paid by the department. There are movie/tv shoots, concerts, sporting events, parades, festivals, etc. that pay the department for X amount of police officers to staff events, and it's usually all OT pay for officers on their day off.
Because police work is unpredictable, OT is sometimes necessary (department paid) if there's a late arrest, late report, or critical incident. And this goes back to my earlier post regarding police benefiting greatly from liberal labor laws and MOU's. It's not an office/clerical job that you can hold off to complete tomorrow. Suspects have to be booked, reports need to be written and filed, evidence needs to be packaged and booked.
Since this is a George Floyd protest thread, I can assure you almost every department impacted has canceled days off and vacations for all their officers to staff the skirmish lines and/or handle normal calls for service while the protests are going on. That's a lot of OT getting paid out.
The fire department are the real OT scammers! They work two back-to-back 24-hour shifts. What they commonly do is trade days with their colleagues and work FOUR days straight. That's 48 hours of OT in 1 week! Even though their base pay is lower than police, most of them make more in a year because of OT pay. Speaking of Fire, they are a way more discriminatory organization than police IMO. They're a real "old boys club" and almost all white males, with a few black sprinkled here and there. They rarely hire for attrition because it's less opportunity for OT. The hazing culture is like police departments were back in the day. Still, they really have it good. I'm jealous of them.
I agree with the decriminalization of drugs. Recreational marijuana is already legal now, and other drug offenses have been lowered from felonies to misdemeanors, or misdemeanors to infractions. Though according to your 2nd chart, opiate deaths didn't skyrocket until after 2007 where the 1st chart ends. But nonetheless drug possession and abuse is more of a health issue and shouldn't result in the mass incarcerations we've seen for the past few decades.
I understand a lot of people will have an issue with the amount of OT pay for police, but I've been on the job long enough to see other scams like workers comp (staying home for 1 whole year full pay), extended and questionable leaves of absence/sick days, able-bodied police officers doing civilian/admin work, frivolous complaints/lawsuits of discrimination/harassment/racism/sexism/retaliation with significant pay-outs, suing the department for injuries/illnesses with again more pay-outs. And the best one : https://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-drop-pension-20180206-story.html
Of course I'm biased, but I don't mind the OT because at times it's necessary due to the nature of the job. And a lot of the special OT assignments are not paid by the department anyway. I personally have a bigger problem with my colleagues who, although grown-ass men and women who call themselves cops, are always scamming and crying or playing victim to get a lawsuit or promotion/special assignment. It goes against what I stand for.
Just coming back to this and wanted to talk a bit more about how common things are.
I was trying to get figures for how many married couples in the UK there were to kind of compare how frequent / common domestic abuse cases are. I think the best i can manage is saying theres 27.6 million households, which seems a reasonable point of reference. Thats an awful lot of people not kicking lumps out of each other and thankfully a lot of people who wont be subjected to or experience domestic abuse. I expect many of the cases willl be repeat offenders too?
Witnessing it on a daily basis is going to be extremely taxing and give you a different perspective to what most people thankfully see. I have a pretty negative outlook on the decency of most people but i expect you have far, far greater reason to be cynical on the subject. Its probably not an especially healthy outlook.
Similarly with child sexual abuse - most people aren't going to experience or come across it. I dont want to dig through figures for it because it is grim and i'm a big wimp.
I'm as guilty as anyone on this site for the negative rhetoric towards policing. Its petty at the best of times and deeply unhelpful at the moment so i'll try lay off for a while. Maybe breaking this thread into a few seperate discussions would help. So talk of american policing doesn't end up contaminating that of british policing which is a world apart. I don't know the answers to improving british and irish policing. Its a much lesser problem than that of american policing and is more about adjusting small aspects probably. I think theres probably some room for it and for improvements elsewhere all the same.