[Still ill]

Edit, you need to clean up your punctuation. You need to use a coma after game....moron.

Would it be a bad time to point out the coma thing?

 

[Dante]

It's not just about being clinical, though. The tactics are fundamentally ill-judged.

Zlatan is great as a target man, but he's too slow to stretch the play. One CB marks him and the other one is spare at all times. Meanwhile, none of our wide players are particularly good at crossing and our (nominal) wide-forwards have poor movement in the box. If they could make clever runs down the channels like Welbeck could, at least that'd be something as it'd open up spaces for the midfielders to get forward. But right now, there are poor decisions being made every time we get into dangerous positions. Mata's the only one I trust to make the correct decision on a consistent basis, but we can't put all our eggs into one basket.

And I'm not having the excuse that our finishing has been poor. Most of 'unlucky' shots have been from positions where we've made it easy for the 'keeper or defenders. We rarely get in behind defences with any incisiveness. There's usually a body or two in the way of all the supposedly chances we make because we take such a circuitous route to get there.

I made a thread earlier about our tactic of lofting in balls to Ibrahimovic all the flipping time. It's playing into the hands of the oppositions we're playing against. PL centrebacks will eat that shit up all day. What once worked with Drogba or Milito can't work at United because we don't have anything like the same threat/movement from the wings.

 

[dwd]

Would it be a bad time to point out the coma thing?

You could induce it I guess...

 

[bio202]

A coma after the game? We had enough of those when LVG was here.

 

[Frank Grimes]

It's not just about being clinical, though. The tactics are fundamentally ill-judged.

Zlatan is great as a target man, but he's too slow to stretch the play. One CB marks him and the other one is spare at all times. Meanwhile, none of our wide players are particularly good at crossing and our (nominal) wide-forwards have poor movement in the box. If they could make clever runs down the channels like Welbeck could, at least that'd be something as it'd open up spaces for the midfielders to get forward. But right now, there are poor decisions being made every time we get into dangerous positions. Mata's the only one I trust to make the correct decision on a consistent basis, but we can't put all our eggs into one basket.

And I'm not having the excuse that our finishing has been poor. Most of 'unlucky' shots have been from positions where we've made it easy for the 'keeper or defenders. We rarely get in behind defences with any incisiveness. There's usually a body or two in the way of all the supposedly chances we make because we take such a circuitous route to get there.

I made a thread earlier about our tactic of lofting in balls to Ibrahimovic all the flipping time. It's playing into the hands of the oppositions we're playing against. PL centrebacks will eat that shit up all day. What once worked with Drogba or Milito can't work at United because we don't have anything like the same threat/movement from the wings.

Some good points here.

 

[R'hllor]

I guess we have to learn to live with the novelty of a manager who visibly gives a shit.

Visibly gives a shit...dear lord,guess thats really important,the amount of how much someone gives a shit means feck all, if football fans cant see it.

 

[iluvoursolskjær]

Shaw has been poor (LB fooked), Darmien is too limited and just a filler at this point (fullback cover not that good), central defence is patch work (no consistency in central defence), don't have a Carrick mkII (distribution from deep/initiation of moves not as effective when the 35 yo not playing), Mkhy and Martial haven't contributed for whatever reason (wide positions significantly weakened), Ibra misfiring...

It's just horrible.

 

[marukomu]

Just watched the highlights. Not very good, was it?

 

[12OunceEpilogue]

I was at the game and have since enjoyed a nice night out with my brother, and in that time I've been able to crystallise my thoughts on this game into a fairly succinct form:

feck feck feck I'm fecking sick of fecking jizzing points away against teams we have fecking outplayed. Why the feck can't we finish anymore? What the absolute feck was that opening 20/25 minutes in the second half? Rashford needs some time out of the first team, our fullbacks need to learn how to cross a fecking football and for the love of feck can someone teach our players how long 90 minutes lasts? The way we don't give a shit for 30 to 45 minutes of each game is driving me to drink.

I'm up the wall with this bunch of overpaid shites.

 

[Cantonagotmehere]

Yeah good point, I always get tired more on Thursday's. On Wednesday's I can run and run.

Seriously???

This place is deluded.

 

[ghagua]

For the amount of money we've spent and the profile of the manager, we're simply shite.

 

[Theonas]

It's not just about being clinical, though. The tactics are fundamentally ill-judged.

Zlatan is great as a target man, but he's too slow to stretch the play. One CB marks him and the other one is spare at all times. Meanwhile, none of our wide players are particularly good at crossing and our (nominal) wide-forwards have poor movement in the box. If they could make clever runs down the channels like Welbeck could, at least that'd be something as it'd open up spaces for the midfielders to get forward. But right now, there are poor decisions being made every time we get into dangerous positions. Mata's the only one I trust to make the correct decision on a consistent basis, but we can't put all our eggs into one basket.

And I'm not having the excuse that our finishing has been poor. Most of 'unlucky' shots have been from positions where we've made it easy for the 'keeper or defenders. We rarely get in behind defences with any incisiveness. There's usually a body or two in the way of all the supposedly chances we make because we take such a circuitous route to get there.

I made a thread earlier about our tactic of lofting in balls to Ibrahimovic all the flipping time. It's playing into the hands of the oppositions we're playing against. PL centrebacks will eat that shit up all day. What once worked with Drogba or Milito can't work at United because we don't have anything like the same threat/movement from the wings.

Spot on! People confuse the excitement of shooting with actually playing well. There is a clear difference between the type of chances City or Liverpool create and what we do. Ours are mostly shots or pieces of individual brilliance. There is very rarely any chances created through incisive passing and movement. What Mourinho is basically doing is asking the team to play more direct and shoot more. That's more exciting than trying to work more on creating clear cut chances like LvG was trying to do or like Pep and Klopp are succeeding to do. However, it doesn't necessarily mean that we are a stronger team. This confusion between excitement and substance in terms of offensive quality is giving a lot of people a false idea of our level.

 

[The BlackGaijin]

Maybe it’s more than being unlucky. Maybe we are cursed. Who knows how to lift a curse? Maybe something involving a goat’s head, a full moon and Mourinho, Pogba and Zlatan dancing in the nude?

 

[12OunceEpilogue]

... and Mourinho, Pogba and Zlatan dancing in the nude?

 

[Denis79]

In all honesty I think we play well at times. I just don't understand why we cant grind better results. We deserved a win in so many games this season.

 

[caid]

In all honesty I think we play well at times. I just don't understand why we cant grind better results. We deserved a win in so many games this season.

Tbf our defensive record just isn't that good atm
We seem to concede most games so need to score 2 to win and our attack just hasn't clicked.

It took a while to get our midfield sorted (and its over reliant on carrick). It'll take a while to get our attack going i guess.
Think its purely a matter of patience - giving martial and mkhitariyan a bit of slack (ones young, the other will take a while to settle)
I'm not that convinced by zlatan tbh but really no one is making much of a case to start atm.

I've kind of wrote this season off tbh, which is kind of terrible 13 games in but it is what it is.
It a transition year basically.

 

[Theonas]

Tbf our defensive record just isn't that good atm
We seem to concede most games so need to score 2 to win and our attack just hasn't clicked.

It took a while to get our midfield sorted (and its over reliant on carrick). It'll take a while to get our attack going i guess.
Think its purely a matter of patience - giving martial and mkhitariyan a bit of slack (ones young, the other will take a while to settle)
I'm not that convinced by zlatan tbh but really no one is making much of a case to start atm.

I've kind of wrote this season off tbh, which is kind of terrible 13 games in but it is what it is.
It a transition year basically.

I think talking about the defence is distracting when we score as little as we do. We basically barely ever score more than once in the league. With a record like that, the problem is clear and shifting the blame to other areas is a distracting even if it is not entirely untrue.

 

[SirMattBugsby]

Spot on! People confuse the excitement of shooting with actually playing well. There is a clear difference between the type of chances City or Liverpool create and what we do. Ours are mostly shots or pieces of individual brilliance. There is very rarely any chances created through incisive passing and movement. What Mourinho is basically doing is asking the team to play more direct and shoot more. That's more exciting than trying to work more on creating clear cut chances like LvG was trying to do or like Pep and Klopp are succeeding to do. However, it doesn't necessarily mean that we are a stronger team. This confusion between excitement and substance in terms of offensive quality is giving a lot of people a false idea of our level.

I suspected this would happen under Mourinho. From being an above-average, consistent but creatively toothless team, we've turned into one which huffs and puffs against smaller teams and parks the bus against stronger ones (Arsenal was a pleasantly surprising exception, I'll admit).

Problem is, despite this gung-ho approach, we are not getting results against weaker opposition. These were the type of results that cost LvG his job despite doing well against top-four teams. But was it solely his fault the team was not scoring more?

Unless we go on a really good run, we are going to finish worse off than last season. Well, atleast it's not boring..

 

[Snow]

It's not just about being clinical, though. The tactics are fundamentally ill-judged.

Zlatan is great as a target man, but he's too slow to stretch the play. One CB marks him and the other one is spare at all times. Meanwhile, none of our wide players are particularly good at crossing and our (nominal) wide-forwards have poor movement in the box. If they could make clever runs down the channels like Welbeck could, at least that'd be something as it'd open up spaces for the midfielders to get forward. But right now, there are poor decisions being made every time we get into dangerous positions. Mata's the only one I trust to make the correct decision on a consistent basis, but we can't put all our eggs into one basket.

And I'm not having the excuse that our finishing has been poor. Most of 'unlucky' shots have been from positions where we've made it easy for the 'keeper or defenders. We rarely get in behind defences with any incisiveness. There's usually a body or two in the way of all the supposedly chances we make because we take such a circuitous route to get there.

I made a thread earlier about our tactic of lofting in balls to Ibrahimovic all the flipping time. It's playing into the hands of the oppositions we're playing against. PL centrebacks will eat that shit up all day. What once worked with Drogba or Milito can't work at United because we don't have anything like the same threat/movement from the wings.

We usually miss one chance per game where it's just the keeper that's in a way of a goal. That's definitely down to poor finishing.

What we need more of are runs from our midfielders. Fact is we've had some poor performers in attack. Rooney, Lingard, Martial, Rasford and Fellaini haven't been good enough. Mkhitaryan is only just starting but I think he will improve our team now and with more consistency in the starting lineup as Mourinho's starting lineup becomes more definitive so will the performance be consistently better from players.

LvG just rotated sooo much. If there weren't new players playing in the first 11 then he was playing some new tactic or using a new formation.

 

[Theonas]

I suspected this would happen under Mourinho. From being an above-average, consistent but creatively toothless team, we've turned into one which huffs and puffs against smaller teams and parks the bus against stronger ones (Arsenal was a pleasantly surprising exception, I'll admit).

Problem is, despite this gung-ho approach, we are not getting results against weaker opposition. These were the type of results that cost LvG his job despite doing well against top-four teams. But was it solely his fault the team was not scoring more?

Unless we go on a really good run, we are going to finish worse off than last season. Well, atleast it's not boring..

LvG was working towards a more structured game positionally and movement wise. The same can be said of Pep, Pochettino or Klopp. Their ideas are different but they share a similar principle. The downside of that approach is that when it is not working (like us under LvG or when you see Klopp or Pep teams coming up short) it can look boring and dull. Mourinho is not fussed about that, he is direct and bases his football on being solid at the back while trusting his attackers to create on the other side. Against the weaker teams, his attackers do enjoy plenty of space and territorial dominance that they do indeed get more often in dangerous positions. That should not be mistaken for an improvement to our football however, Mourinho is simply taking a simpler approach. If it was working, that would be fine and good even thougn it would never work against the top sides, but for now it isn't even working against the lower ones.

 

[Janson]

The last three home games, we were pretty much completely dominant. This was much less one sided. There were spells in this game and especially for about 20-25 mins second half, where we tried to press, tried beeing agressive but we just got overrun and outmuscled in midfield. At times, players like Mata, Herrera, Rashford and Lingard looked like schoolboys out there. I felt we could have used Fellaini today.

 

[Snow]

I suspected this would happen under Mourinho. From being an above-average, consistent but creatively toothless team, we've turned into one which huffs and puffs against smaller teams and parks the bus against stronger ones (Arsenal was a pleasantly surprising exception, I'll admit).

Problem is, despite this gung-ho approach, we are not getting results against weaker opposition. These were the type of results that cost LvG his job despite doing well against top-four teams. But was it solely his fault the team was not scoring more?

Unless we go on a really good run, we are going to finish worse off than last season. Well, atleast it's not boring..

Our football under LvG relied solely on finishing the very few chances each game we got. Every single time we lost or drew he blamed that one chance that we missed. Had we scored the game would have gone differently. Now we conceded from a set piece and missed a lot of chances. Not just the one but 4 or 5 very good ones. Against Arsenal we missed a lot of good chances and they scored from their only one when it was too late to come back from. Then there was the Stoke and Burnley game. 4 points which with very little extra luck should have been 12. There's been so little in it.

I also happen to think that we've done fairly well considering that Jones and Rojo were thrown into the first team after having played very little and not at all together.

 

[sunama]

Last season we were creating two or three chances per game and it was obvious that it was the manager and his bizzare tactics that were holding us back.

This season is just weird. We are creating tons of chances per game at the moment but are being massively let down by our offensive players.

My love is for Manchester United. Not for a manager and not for a player. Last year I wanted LVG gone as I blamed him 100% for the shit that was being served up week after week.

This season I don't have that same feeling towards Mourinho. You can see that he is starting to make things click, but if your strikers are scorning chance after chance, tactically what can you do about it?

Hopefully we can bring in a top class Striker, Winger and defender over the next two transfer windows.

Indeed.

 

[Damien]

@Maradona10 I don't think the changing thread starter idea has worked.

 

[SirMattBugsby]

LvG was working towards a more structured game positionally and movement wise. The same can be said of Pep, Pochettino or Klopp. Their ideas are different but they share a similar principle. The downside of that approach is that when it is not working (like us under LvG or when you see Klopp or Pep teams coming up short) it can look boring and dull. Mourinho is not fussed about that, he is direct and bases his football on being solid at the back while trusting his attackers to create on the other side. Against the weaker teams, his attackers do enjoy plenty of space and territorial dominance that they do indeed get more often in dangerous positions. That should not be mistaken for an improvement to our football however, Mourinho is simply taking a simpler approach. If it was working, that would be fine and good even thougn it would never work against the top sides, but for now it isn't even working against the lower ones.

Our football under LvG relied solely on finishing the very few chances each game we got. Every single time we lost or drew he blamed that one chance that we missed. Had we scored the game would have gone differently. Now we conceded from a set piece and missed a lot of chances. Not just the one but 4 or 5 very good ones. Against Arsenal we missed a lot of good chances and they scored from their only one when it was too late to come back from. Then there was the Stoke and Burnley game. 4 points which with very little extra luck should have been 12. There's been so little in it.

I also happen to think that we've done fairly well considering that Jones and Rojo were thrown into the first team after having played very little and not at all together.

So, irrespective of the manager or playing style, we aren't scoring enough. The chances have increased due to more direct play and better individual quality, but something is still missing (I don't agree that it is just bad luck).

In my opinion, it is the same three deficiencies in team structure that were present under LvG:
1) Lack of creativity in central midfield,
2) Improper use of the right wing and
3) No pace upfront

Two key changes could be pivotal in this respect: starting Mkhitaryan on the right and one of Martial or Rashford upfront. Playing our talented young forwards on the wings in Mourinho's system has been an asinine move, especially when the team is short on goals.

 

[Yagami]

I might be the only United fan who came out of that game happy. The Europa League is the competition where I want us to win no matter what and could care less about our performances as that's our best hope of CL football next year.

 

[kouroux]

There is always this feeling that when Utd scores 1 goal, there just won't be another in the game.

 

[SqueakyWeasel]

@Maradona10 I don't think the changing thread starter idea has worked.

He says he needs 3 years to turn around the mess he inherited

 

[CS@SG]

So, did Pogba dive?

 

[Rory 7]

The way we started the second half was yet another demonstration of what I've been saying all along: no leadership on the pitch.

Bilic sorted out his team at halftime, they got in our faces and we just crumbled. When the going gets tough this united squad just freezes. And I really believe it's because we've no one on the pitch that leads, steadies the ship and gives though players who deserve it a kick up the arse when needed.

Closest we have to a proper captain is Ander but I wouldn't mistake passion for leadership. This is not a problem that will be solved anytime soon either. I just hope those American twats give Jose time because he really really needs it.

 

[SqueakyWeasel]

So, did Pogba dive?

Just watching the analysis of Sinclair and Keown on MOTD2. They say their old club alegencies have nothing to do with their decision, then simply dismiss it as a dive and go on to berate Jose for his reaction and spend longer talking about what an embarrassment he has become for the directors of "the great institution that is Manchester United" and Premier League football in general.

This is laughable, even in the match commentary they had time to introduce the debate that there is "diving" and then there is "acting to avoid an overenthusiastic tackle".

Should contact have to be made for a FK to be awarded? Should a player have to leave his leg planted firmly on the ground and risk serious injury? Even if the FK was not awarded does the ref have to book Pogba for diving when he was clearly acting to avoid injury? These are the discussions that I would expect from a top drawer football analysis show.

 

[SirMattBugsby]

So, did Pogba dive?

Yes. Deserved a booking.

 

[CS@SG]

The way we started the second half was yet another demonstration of what I've been saying all along: no leadership on the pitch.

Bilic sorted out his team at halftime, they got in our faces and we just crumbled. When the going gets tough this united squad just freezes. And I really believe it's because we've no one on the pitch that leads, steadies the ship and gives though players who deserve it a kick up the arse when needed.

Closest we have to a proper captain is Ander but I wouldn't mistake passion for leadership. This is not a problem that will be solved anytime soon either. I just hope those American twats give Jose time because he really really needs it.

I wonder if that would change, if Bastian did come on......

 

[RedDevil@84]

Just watching the analysis of Sinclair and Keown on MOTD2. They say their old club alegencies have nothing to do with their decision, then simply dismiss it as a dive and go on to berate Jose for his reaction and spend longer talking about what an embarrassment he has become for the directors of "the great institution that is Manchester United" and Premier League football in general.

This is laughable, even in the match commentary they had time to introduce the debate that there is "diving" and then there is "acting to avoid an overenthusiastic tackle".

Should contact have to be made for a FK to be awarded? Should a player have to leave his leg planted firmly on the ground and risk serious injury? Even if the FK was not awarded does the ref have to book Pogba for diving when he was clearly acting to avoid injury? These are the discussions that I would expect from a top drawer football analysis show.

Refs do look for contacts and a fall. Especially in penalties. Though rules suggest intention of foul needs to be punished, refs do want to see a hard fall. Hence players indulge in dramatic falls many a time.

 

[Rory 7]

I wonder if that would change, if Bastian did come on......

In theory, yes. But I'm not sure even he commands enough respect, given the reports about the rest of the squads' problems with him.

 

[bio202]

Seriously???

This place is deluded.

No, just a poor attempt at sarcasm.

 

[Janson]

LvG was working towards a more structured game positionally and movement wise. The same can be said of Pep, Pochettino or Klopp. Their ideas are different but they share a similar principle. The downside of that approach is that when it is not working (like us under LvG or when you see Klopp or Pep teams coming up short) it can look boring and dull. Mourinho is not fussed about that, he is direct and bases his football on being solid at the back while trusting his attackers to create on the other side. Against the weaker teams, his attackers do enjoy plenty of space and territorial dominance that they do indeed get more often in dangerous positions. That should not be mistaken for an improvement to our football however, Mourinho is simply taking a simpler approach. If it was working, that would be fine and good even thougn it would never work against the top sides, but for now it isn't even working against the lower ones.

How is that not improvement to our football? We have played some great stuff lately and creating loads of chances even despite being in the process of finding our best eleven, a constantly changing back four and bad referees.

The tactics have generally been working, It's just finishing that's lacking. It hasn't really escaped anyone how many clear cut chances we've been missing. Why should he change what has always worked for him. Pep, Klopp and Conte are doing well right now but they still haven't won anything in England. Jose has every right to mock their philosphies.

 

[ZAGREB RED]

Sent off for kicking a bottle down the touchline ? Do me a favour, what next, sent off for shaking your head at a decision ?

 

[Verbalkint]

It's not Jose's fault. If we finished better we would have been singing his praises, talking about how good our stats looked etc.

Rashford should have bagged that one on one. Inexcusable.
Zlatan's heavy touch didn't help him, clear goal otherwise.

True, we haven't exactly been lucky of late and the refs might have screwed us over but if we don't finish our chances (and we are creating some) it's going to bite us real hard.

 

[marukomu]

I might be the only United fan who came out of that game happy. The Europa League is the competition where I want us to win no matter what and could care less about our performances as that's our best hope of CL football next year.

couldn't. 'Could' means that you care.