PL D FA Premier League

Manchester United 1:1 West Ham United

Post-match discussion


Sun, 27 November 2016

Our shots on target / goals must be diabolical.
Also for @sammsky1 @Raw: Here's a nicer edited table.
Code:
Team                Shots pg    Shots OT pg    Goals    Games    Shots/goal    Shots OT/goal
Chelsea                16            6            29        13        7.17        2.69
Liverpool              19.4        7.3            32        13        7.88        2.97
Manchester City        17.5        5.9            29        13        7.84        2.64
Arsenal                14.5        4.6            28        13        6.73        2.14
Tottenham              17          5.7            19        13        11.63       3.90
Manchester United      16.9        5.8            18        13        12.21       4.19
 
Also for @sammsky1 @Raw: Here's a nicer edited table.
Code:
Team                Shots pg    Shots OT pg    Goals    Games    Shots/goal    Shots OT/goal
Chelsea                16            6            29        13        7.17        2.69
Liverpool              19.4        7.3            32        13        7.88        2.97
Manchester City        17.5        5.9            29        13        7.84        2.64
Arsenal                14.5        4.6            28        13        6.73        2.14
Tottenham              17          5.7            19        13        11.63       3.90
Manchester United      16.9        5.8            18        13        12.21       4.19
Have no idea what all that means, looks way too complicated for me, but like the fact you can scoot the numbers left and right using the grey thing at the bottom. Got bored after about a minute but … thanks anyway!
 
Just watched the highlights. Not very good, was it?
Not really. Maybe it is just me, but I just do not understand the amount of changes we make between games. It is not just the amount of players, it is the formations as well. The only time I have been happy with our performances (which is not many) is when we have 3 in midfield, i.e. Carrick with Pogba and Herrera. Looked pretty much as though we moved to a 4-2-3-1 last night.

Certain players seem to just go through the motions. I was surprised Pogba got MoTM by caftards. I thought he was bad and the main culprit in fecking up our attacking play. Like Lingard and Zlatan he fecks about with the ball far too much, and I can't believe he has a good pass ratio.

All that said, we were well on top and deserved more from the game. Can't believe how many stupid fouls we give away around our box. We must be the worst in the league at this. As for their goal, there was no luck in it, it was planned and a perfect cross. Pity we don't score those types of goals.

Shit result. I think I read this is now the worst United start to a season since 1980. Tells you something is not right.
 
The Europa League is the competition where I want us to win no matter what and could care less about our performances as that's our best hope of CL football next year.

couldn't. 'Could' means that you care.

This is exactly the one which bugs me, too.
The Americans (incorrectly) say "could care less".
While us Brits (correctly) say, "couldn't care less".

I'm glad someone else also noticed this. :cool:
 
What a frustrating game.

Just didn't do enough to win that game in the second half. The balance in attack isn't quite right. The left side is producing nothing at the moment. Martial and Shaw being so below par has been really costly.

Also, really need a poacher off the bench to play up front with Zlatan. Late in the game when the team is desperate for a goal they still have just one striker who likes to drop deep.

Miki looked very good again. He was heavily involved in anything positive in the second half. Fantastic save by Randolph to deny him the winner.
 
Tbf our defensive record just isn't that good atm
We seem to concede most games so need to score 2 to win and our attack just hasn't clicked.

It took a while to get our midfield sorted (and its over reliant on carrick). It'll take a while to get our attack going i guess.
Think its purely a matter of patience - giving martial and mkhitariyan a bit of slack (ones young, the other will take a while to settle)
I'm not that convinced by zlatan tbh but really no one is making much of a case to start atm.

I've kind of wrote this season off tbh, which is kind of terrible 13 games in but it is what it is.
It a transition year basically.

We don't have big problems at times we look like a top side football team but we still need a few things to click like you say. I'm not convinced by Zlatan either tbh.
 
Another game where we should of come away with the 3 points. We are playing much better football now and creating more chances. I think its only a matter of time before we go on a good run of games. Rashford had a poor game again for me on the Left, he needs to be taken out of the starting 11 and come off the bench at 70mins for Zlatan. Martial needs to start every game so he can get his form back.
 
Also for @sammsky1 @Raw: Here's a nicer edited table.
Code:
Team                Shots pg    Shots OT pg    Goals    Games    Shots/goal    Shots OT/goal
Chelsea                16            6            29        13        7.17        2.69
Liverpool              19.4        7.3            32        13        7.88        2.97
Manchester City        17.5        5.9            29        13        7.84        2.64
Arsenal                14.5        4.6            28        13        6.73        2.14
Tottenham              17          5.7            19        13        11.63       3.90
Manchester United      16.9        5.8            18        13        12.21       4.19
Crazy that were averaging more than one shot a game on Arsenal yet they're conversion rate is nearly half the shots we take.
 
Another game where we should of come away with the 3 points. We are playing much better football now and creating more chances. I think its only a matter of time before we go on a good run of games. Rashford had a poor game again for me on the Left, he needs to be taken out of the starting 11 and come off the bench at 70mins for Zlatan. Martial needs to start every game so he can get his form back.
Rashford's playing shite = take him out
Martial's playing just as shite = start him every game :smirk:
 
Rashford's playing shite = take him out
Martial's playing just as shite = start him every game :smirk:

Martial is far more suited from the left. Rashford is great as a impact player from the bench who can change a game when he comes on. Rashford needs to play as ST when he's on the pitch. Surly you can see this?
 
Have no idea what all that means, looks way too complicated for me, but like the fact you can scoot the numbers left and right using the grey thing at the bottom. Got bored after about a minute but … thanks anyway!

Analyzing the data, I think what it means is that our strikers can't hit a barn door with a banjo.
 
I'm not sure if this has been posted.
Great interview.



It is, and it cements the feeling that Herrera is one of the few who is on the level with the fans. Not being able to shake the feeling that most of them couldn't give a fecking shit about United is the most concerning thing about our present woes.
 
Martial is far more suited from the left. Rashford is great as a impact player from the bench who can change a game when he comes on. Rashford needs to play as ST when he's on the pitch. Surly you can see this?
Agree regarding the positions but don't think either of them have warranted a start to be honest. Can't believe I'm saying this but I'd rather Rooney start on the left or Mkhitaryan.
 
Agree regarding the positions but don't think either of them have warranted a start to be honest. Can't believe I'm saying this but I'd rather Rooney start on the left or Mkhitaryan.
Why Mkhitaryan and Rooney didn't start after their performances against Feyenoord is a mystery and it felt twice as bad when Lingard gave away a cheap free kick in the first minute and they scored from it.

Fergie always kept the same shape of his teams and make the odd change or two so Rojo in for Blind and herrera for carrick would of made sense from the Feyenoord game.

Instead Mourinho changed it completely bringing in Darmian, Lingard, Rashford, Rojo, Herrera and De Gea, that's half a team!

What is more than obvious is in January we need a striker because Ibrahimovic and Rashford aren't cutting it at the moment the chances are there but nobody is burying them in the back of the net.
 
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So frustrating.

I have to say it was an entertaining game to watch, I'm enjoying watching United more this season than the last three years. I know the results aren't coming but it's not the whole, dominate possession and create very little issue we had last year.

I still fully believe that at some point we will click into life and find that extra gear, and that when we do we will go on a big run, question will be whether it will be too late to salvage any kind of charge up the table by that point.

We currently sit 11 points off the top, 10 behind 2nd/3rd and 8 behind 4th. All it takes is 1-2 weeks where we get 3 points and the teams above us drop points and we are right back in the mix. I refuse to write off the top 4, or even a title challenge until after the Christmas period. In days of old, if we were 6-9 points behind the leaders at Christmas, I felt confident we could close that gap in the second half of the season. Let's reassess then.
 
couldn't. 'Could' means that you care.

This is exactly the one which bugs me, too.
The Americans (incorrectly) say "could care less".
While us Brits (correctly) say, "couldn't care less".

I'm glad someone else also noticed this. :cool:
doh.gif


I've been watching too many American dramas!
 
How is that not improvement to our football? We have played some great stuff lately and creating loads of chances even despite being in the process of finding our best eleven, a constantly changing back four and bad referees.
Well that's debatable. Our performances vs City, Liverpool and Chelsea made us look truly inferior to those teams. We approached them and played them like inferiors which is absurd considering our spending and the fact that they are not exactly Barcelona. We enjoyed more time in the final third vs Leicester, Burnley, Stoke and yesterday and maybe even Arsenal which is obviously more exciting than what we have seen the past few years but it doesn't necessarily mean there is more substance to our attacking. It is difficult to judge whether this is simply because we have higher quality individually or because we play more direct (which is not necessarily better) or because José indeed can be a good offensive coach.
The tactics have generally been working, It's just finishing that's lacking. It hasn't really escaped anyone how many clear cut chances we've been missing. Why should he change what has always worked for him. Pep, Klopp and Conte are doing well right now but they still haven't won anything in England. Jose has every right to mock their philosphies.
Of course he can mock them but it screams of insecurity. Why is he so obsessed about telling the whole world how wrong it is to want to win a certain way? He hates the idea that Wenger gets so much respect despite not winning much but he can't change the fact the football community simply respects the idea of a manager setting up his team to be pro active. He feels he is under appreciated and he is absolutely right that he doesn't get the respect his success deserves but there is a good reason for that.
 
So Pogba was supposed to stay on his feet and receive a potential leg break from a wild swing by that cnut Noble, in order to avoid a booking?
I suppose his is good enough to jump, avoiding the tackle, and land standing, instead off falling down as if there is contact.
 
Just saw that Julia Roberts and her kids were in attendance for the game. She still looks great!


PxcTTPf.jpg


She seems to have took a liking to our midfield especially. Pogba, Carrick and Herrera are not the only trio perfect for United, they are for Julia, too!
 
I like her. But the Dior commercials are fecking awful
In that second pic with Carrick you could see him saying something like that to her. All happy in the first pic shaking hands then Carrick goes and says "them Dior ads are awful" and you see the crazy in Julia's eyes, the panic in Carrick's expression, and the daughter in front thinking "oh no, not again"
 
In that second pic with Carrick you could see him saying something like that to her. All happy in the first pic shaking hands then Carrick goes and says "them Dior ads are awful" and you see the crazy in Julia's eyes, the panic in Carrick's expression, and the daughter in front thinking "oh no, not again"

It's not just her. It's all of them
 
I'm not sure if this has been posted.
Great interview.

Herrera video
Was a big story on RAWK
"Honestly thats fecking embarrassing to hear someone come out with that. Anyone who's read the Torres book about Jose will be pissing themselves laughing at that. You just know he's been coached by Jose to preach that utter bollocks to anyone who'll listen, on the premise of saying something enough times and it will stick.

Bet Jose had the biggest smile of the day when he saw that, wouldnt be surprised if he high fived him as he came back"

Back to topic:
Good interview, not the usual shit. Go again, come back stronger blablabla.
 
So Pogba was supposed to stay on his feet and receive a potential leg break from a wild swing by that cnut Noble, in order to avoid a booking?
1) The swing from Noble was wild, but in no way strong enough to break a leg.

2) I fully understand Pogba taking evasive action, but he appealed for a foul. The better course of action is to get on with the game then and complain to the ref about Nolan's wild tackling at the next break of play.

It's a fine line between going down after minimal contact and diving, which is why I think Pogba was unlucky more than anything. Having said that, it was the right call by the ref.
 
It's been so painful getting these league results and watching the top 4/5 increase the gap on us. So depressing it's difficult to come on the forum :(

The only positive I can truly think of right now is that we seem to be making so much more chances compared to an LVG coached team. We just need to finish teams off and go on some sort of winning run in the league...
 
Unacceptable result, the poor finishing has gone on for far too long to be just down to luck maybe just maybe its the fact that we are playing average players and a young off form striker as left winger than trying to play our more talented flair players back into form or settled in the team plus that nonsense of always subbing off Mata?
 
I'm not sure if this has been posted.
Great interview.


Wow! Saw the first 90 seconds of that on MOTD2 and had no idea it went on so long. I understand that they are dictated by available time and I admit that he ended up repeating a lot of what he said if you watch all the way to the end but there was so much more substance to his words than the edited bit the Beeb put out that night.

He sounds really cut up about the situation.

I'm sure a hug from Mata set the world to rights once again back in the dressing room though. :)
 
Well that's debatable. Our performances vs City, Liverpool and Chelsea made us look truly inferior to those teams. We approached them and played them like inferiors which is absurd considering our spending and the fact that they are not exactly Barcelona. We enjoyed more time in the final third vs Leicester, Burnley, Stoke and yesterday and maybe even Arsenal which is obviously more exciting than what we have seen the past few years but it doesn't necessarily mean there is more substance to our attacking. It is difficult to judge whether this is simply because we have higher quality individually or because we play more direct (which is not necessarily better) or because José indeed can be a good offensive coach.
City was early in the season when he was still tinkering with the lineup, Fellaini and Rooney were still regulars at the time. At that time our play wasn't looking even close to as fluent as it does now. But even despite that we still should have had a draw considering the Bravo/Rooney incident. I don't see how we looked inferior to Liverpool. We set out stopping them from playing and that's what we did. I think most people would agree that was a good tactical display from Mourinho. You are right about Chelsea but we conceded from individual mistakes early on so our gameplan went out the window. That's not an excuse though, if we were on their level then we should have been able to hit back.

We are not top team material yet though. The midfield is sorted but we still don't know what our best back four is, same thing with the wings. You can see that some of our players aren't his type of player, we will see a more cohesive team when he gets some more transfers done. We clearly are inferior right now, but even if we were not Mourinho would still play on the counter against strong teams like he always has. Of course we have higher quality individually but you can't just put it down to that.

Of course he can mock them but it screams of insecurity. Why is he so obsessed about telling the whole world how wrong it is to want to win a certain way? He hates the idea that Wenger gets so much respect despite not winning much but he can't change the fact the football community simply respects the idea of a manager setting up his team to be pro active. He feels he is under appreciated and he is absolutely right that he doesn't get the respect his success deserves but there is a good reason for that.
I don't think he believes it's wrong to play in a deifferent way, just that it's not as effective as his way. We obviously don't know what he's thinking but imo it's not likely he cares about what people think. His record speaks for itself, he doesn't need any further recognition.
 
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When we're not getting results (I hesitate to say not playing well) my moods go thru several stages. I've just turned 50 and I'm only just realising this, prob because its a long time since I used to watch Ron Atkinson's boys.

Firstly I get really *angry. I feel like putting on my old boots and showing them how its done. "Just put the feckin ball in the feckin onion bag" kinda thing. Oddly, when its an occasional cock up, my anger lasts longer. It fuels my passion for the next game, when I expect us to put it right. Under Fergie, we did more often than not. Not so much now. Now, we'll then have another poor result, then another. Its harder to stay angry. So apathy starts to play a part, and I HATE feeling like that towards United. Its been a life long passion. Where the hell does apathy belong in that???

I still have faith in Mourinho and his signings, but how much more apathy will chip away at my passion is hard to say. I'll be watching American Football next !

*=Just to be clear, I'm not talking punching walls, smashing the tv angry, just "grrrrrrrrrr, darn you all to hell" kind of angry. I'm not an animal :p
 
Frustrating given the amount of chances we had in the match. I don't think people can say the style of play has got worse, it is so much better compared to last season, we're too inconsistent and not getting the right results. We just need a few tweaks here and there and we'll be fine.
 
City was early in the season when he was still tinkering with the lineup, Fellaini and Rooney were still regulars at the time. At that time our play wasn't looking even close to as fluent as it does now. But even despite that we still should have had a draw considering the Bravo/Rooney incident. I don't see how we looked inferior to Liverpool. We set out stopping them from playing and that's what we did. I think most people would agree that was a good tactical display from Mourinho. You are right about Chelsea but we conceded from individual mistakes early on so our gameplan went out the window. That's not an excuse though, if we were on their level then we should have been able to hit back.

We are not top team material yet though. The midfield is sorted but we still don't know what our best back four is, same thing with the wings. You can see that some of our players aren't his type of player, we will see a more cohesive team when he gets some more transfers done. We clearly are inferior right now, but even if we were not Mourinho would still play on the counter against strong teams like he always has. Of course we have higher quality individually but you can't just put it down to that.
You make some good points and I don't necessarily disagree with how you saw those games. What I disagree with though is about the Liverpool game. I know that this is the exact same argument Mourinho's fans and naysayers have been having for ages but here it goes again, yes we were well set up to stop them and limit their threat and yes we most likely had to as otherwise they would have steam-rolled us. The question however is why? Why did they arrive at that game in a position where they should be assuming the role of pro active team that needs to be reacted to and stopped? We are much richer than then, spent more than them and have better players them? If it were Barcelona, then fair enough, they are a team that is the result of a long process and identity that is complimented by some of the best players in the world as well as probably the greatest player ever, it would then be over-ambitious to expect us to be good enough to go toe to toe with them. But Liverpool?? I don't think it was a bad performance, I think it was a sign that we are not good enough that a performance like that was our only chance to get something out of that game.

The City game is also difficult to excuse considering City were in exactly the same position. They also had a new manager and we spent more or less the same amount money. Why then were they good enough to outplay us and we had to hope that we're good enough to counter their superiority? The second half we started launching long balls to Fellaini and Ibra and hoping Bravo makes a mistake which he did. Yes it worked and could have even won us the game but the approach clearly meant that we were not good enough to actually outplay a team that was in a very similar position to us.

I don't think he believes it's wrong to play in a deifferent way, just that it's not as effective as his way. We obviously don't know what he's thinking but imo it's not likely he cares about what people think. His record speaks for itself, he doesn't need any further recognition.
I don't think he believes it is wrong either but I do definitely think he cares. They all care really. Recognition is something all humans need and seek in every field. This is especially the case if you are one of the most successful managers ever. That is why it can't feel nice for him to be questioned as much and more importantly, to be pursued with less aggression than Pep who he has achieved at least as much as. It must nag him that people still talk about Wenger as a top manager when in his eyes, he failed at the only criteria that matters. The reason I say that is that he gets more personal in his criticism than any manager I can remember. Not only that, he actually brings up those very same issues (philosophy, attacking mindset, possession, etc ... ) sometimes unprovoked. His digs at managers who are associated with those traits like Pep, Wenger, Barcelona in general, scream of someone who hates that his style is not valued as much as theirs.

I do think that his failur in his later years at Real was an idealogical problem from his part. His methods of reacting and adapting to the opponent worked perfectly when Real were indeed in a bad moment. They hadn't gone past the last 16 in the CL for years and Barcelona were the dominant force. He came in and instilled a siege mentality of sticking it up to them and it worked wonders. But once Real re-established themselves as an equal force, it couldn't work anymore. Players couldn't just go and play with the same mindset or accept instructions that were reactionary and anticipatory when they were among the best in the business. It looks like he might be trying to adapt here and compromise what he is truly comfortable with and that is why I think he is finding it very difficult to do a good job.
 
You make some good points and I don't necessarily disagree with how you saw those games. What I disagree with though is about the Liverpool game. I know that this is the exact same argument Mourinho's fans and naysayers have been having for ages but here it goes again, yes we were well set up to stop them and limit their threat and yes we most likely had to as otherwise they would have steam-rolled us. The question however is why? Why did they arrive at that game in a position where they should be assuming the role of pro active team that needs to be reacted to and stopped? We are much richer than then, spent more than them and have better players them? If it were Barcelona, then fair enough, they are a team that is the result of a long process and identity that is complimented by some of the best players in the world as well as probably the greatest player ever, it would then be over-ambitious to expect us to be good enough to go toe to toe with them. But Liverpool?? I don't think it was a bad performance, I think it was a sign that we are not good enough that a performance like that was our only chance to get something out of that game.

The City game is also difficult to excuse considering City were in exactly the same position. They also had a new manager and we spent more or less the same amount money. Why then were they good enough to outplay us and we had to hope that we're good enough to counter their superiority? The second half we started launching long balls to Fellaini and Ibra and hoping Bravo makes a mistake which he did. Yes it worked and could have even won us the game but the approach clearly meant that we were not good enough to actually outplay a team that was in a very similar position to us.

Yes it's Liverpool but the reality is they have looked stronger than us leading up to that game. We all expected before the season started that we have a good enough team to challenge for the title. But obviously it hasn't looked that way and we need to get things sorted until we can play how we want to. That still doesn't mean we shouldn't play on the counter against top teams, that's how Mourinho wants to play anyway because that's his way. Right now we need to strengthen our defence and get some cohesion between the back four and midfield. Ultimately, Mourinhos style of play requires a strong defence. When we sort that out, then we can play the same tactics as agianst City for example and win that game, and win that game against Arsenal. Not conceding goals is priority nr 1 against stronger opposition not outscoring the them. I know playing like this might seem cowardly but according to Mourinho it's the most effective.

I agree that with the money we've spent we should be higher up the table right now. But there are many things that haven't worked out for Mourinho while it's been running pretty smoothly for Pep. There is the Mikhitaryan/Martial situation for example. Who everyone had in their strongest lineup but for some reason it hasn't worked out. This could very well be Mourinhos own fault or it could be for them not performing in training. We can't now what's going on behind the scenes. Mourinho had both Rooney and Fellaini in his plans but then he realised they weren't good enough.


I don't think he believes it is wrong either but I do definitely think he cares. They all care really. Recognition is something all humans need and seek in every field. This is especially the case if you are one of the most successful managers ever. That is why it can't feel nice for him to be questioned as much and more importantly, to be pursued with less aggression than Pep who he has achieved at least as much as. It must nag him that people still talk about Wenger as a top manager when in his eyes, he failed at the only criteria that matters. The reason I say that is that he gets more personal in his criticism than any manager I can remember. Not only that, he actually brings up those very same issues (philosophy, attacking mindset, possession, etc ... ) sometimes unprovoked. His digs at managers who are associated with those traits like Pep, Wenger, Barcelona in general, scream of someone who hates that his style is not valued as much as theirs.

I do think that his failur in his later years at Real was an idealogical problem from his part. His methods of reacting and adapting to the opponent worked perfectly when Real were indeed in a bad moment. They hadn't gone past the last 16 in the CL for years and Barcelona were the dominant force. He came in and instilled a siege mentality of sticking it up to them and it worked wonders. But once Real re-established themselves as an equal force, it couldn't work anymore. Players couldn't just go and play with the same mindset or accept instructions that were reactionary and anticipatory when they were among the best in the business. It looks like he might be trying to adapt here and compromise what he is truly comfortable with and that is why I think he is finding it very difficult to do a good job.

I believe alot of this criticism against him is mostly due to his personality. Had Pep been as arogant as Jose, telling everybody how superior his style of play is would earn him the same kind of treatment. Mourinhos football is definitely not as exciting to watch but I just don't see him caring about what journalists write about him as long as he's getting the results, it should motivate him even more to prove them wrong. It is indeed the siege mentality he creates that has always worked in his favor but I'ts debatable how big part of his success it was. I think that ever since he won the league with Chelsea last, he has looked like he is abstinent from winning. It is like someone going without a drug they are dependent on. And he isn't really handling it that well, constantly blaming others while at Chelsea, can't control his aggression etc.
 

Player Ratings

5.7 Total Average Rating

Highest Rated Player

Lowest Rated Player

Compiled from 349 ratings.

Score Predictions

460,17,31
  • Man Utd win
  • West Ham win
  • Draw

Detailed Results

  • 30% Man Utd 2:0 West Ham
  • 17% Man Utd 2:1 West Ham
  • 16% Man Utd 3:0 West Ham
  • 16% Man Utd 3:1 West Ham
  • 5% Man Utd 1:0 West Ham
  • 3% Man Utd 1:1 West Ham
  • 3% Man Utd 5:0 West Ham
  • 2% Man Utd 4:0 West Ham
  • 2% Man Utd 0:0 West Ham
  • 2% Man Utd 4:1 West Ham
  • 2% Man Utd 1:2 West Ham
  • 1% Man Utd 3:2 West Ham
  • 1% Man Utd 2:2 West Ham
  • 0% Man Utd 1:3 West Ham
  • 0% Man Utd 0:1 West Ham
  • 0% Man Utd 0:2 West Ham
  • 0% Man Utd 5:2 West Ham
  • 0% Man Utd 5:4 West Ham
  • 0% Man Utd 1:4 West Ham
  • 0% Man Utd 0:5 West Ham
  • 0% Man Utd 2:3 West Ham
Compiled from 508 predictions.
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Match Stats

  1. Man Utd
  2. West Ham
Possession
68% 32%
Shots
17 6
Shots on Target
8 2
Corners
8 4
Fouls
16 16

Referee

Jonathan Moss