CL L Champions League Group H

Manchester United 0:1 Juventus

Post-match discussion


Tue, 23 October 2018

The worst thing though is we wouldn’t be any better with new manager. Unless he can buy 5-6 new players tomorrow.
Of course we would. We have weaknesses, but everyone in our team is playing so far away from their best and that is down to the manager. You want your manager to prove they can get a system which brings the best out of your players first before justifying spending hundreds of millions on players. We have quality players all around the pitch, plenty of quality young players, but a few glaring holes. Some signings are of course needed. But nothing dramatic. Look at Arsenal with Emery. Look at Sarri with Chelsea. Look at Liverpool with Klopp vs them with Rodgers. Look at City with Pellegrini vs them with Pep. Look at Real Madrid with Zidane and the with Lopetegui. Literally countless examples. One manager can get this group of players playing quality attacking, high pressing football and be an entertaining team, while another manager will park the bus.

Saying "we wouldn't be any better with a new manager" is such complete bullshit and laughable. Yeah, we won't be better off if we bring in another defensive manager like Simeone or Conte or Allegri or something like that. The people in charge need some self-awareness and realize what United is as a club and what type of manager this club needs. Not Moyes, who has always been mid table level and more defensive minded than attacking. Not Van Gaal who is obsessed with possession statistics and not letting the opposition create chances rather then focusing on creativity. Not Mourinho who is seemingly obsessed with being as anti-Barcelona/anti-Pep/anti-Klopp as possible and try and prove that his way is better than that way of playing. We need an attacking manager who understands the club, its traditions, and will encourage the team to play towards that.
 
Because Mourinho doesn't know how to implement a proper pressing system nor does he know how to implement an attacking system here, based on the 3 seasons at the club so far.


Erm, Juve had 70% possession in the first half and finished over 60%, a lot more shots, had openings on the counter without being clinical but never, ever being threatened. They were away to their "biggest" threat in the group. They had a lead from the 18th minute. They were comfortable and barely broke a sweat. If you think that is encouraging from United, then you must expect us as a club to be no better then mid table in the premier league on a regular basis. It was a pitiful performance. Only losing 1-0 isn't a good thing, we had all game to do something and did nothing. That's nothing but concerning.

Agree with all that. But given where the club is right now - I'll take this. I was quite worried today that we may get a real beating at home and that didn't happen.

It's been a bad start to the season, and I'm hoping that things can turn around. There is a positive here today for the team and they need to take it. Otherwise, we are going to have a tougher season that what it already is.

I think Jose should have gone in the summer - when the toxicity began. But it does look like we are in recovery mode now.
 
Why do people overrate our players so much? And it’s still early days for Sarri and Emery.

Many of ours players would be lucky to get minutes for other English topp clubs.
Ah right, just like how in 2013 we walked to the title but the next year it was all down to the players not being anywhere near good enough and 7th was a realistic position for us. We're fecking 10th right now. 10th! We finished 2nd last year and the fans were still annoyed with how shit the football was after January. Don't give me some shit about how we won't be better with another manager. Our players are good enough to outplay the likes of Leicester, Derby, Brighton, West Ham, Newcastle, etc..
 
Do we have a squad to play attacking? Martial and Rashford are not ready to be starters every week, we have no attacking fullbacks. Striker who can’t control a football.

I believe that the only way Martial and Rash will be ready to perform at the level we want is for them to play. Agree completely about our so-called striker but you’re being harsh on Shaw though you’re correct about our full-back issues overall. The current squad are not showing their true talent as they’re not being allowed to.
 
If we had substituted Cuadrado for Berna or Douglas Costa at half time we would have won 3 or even more goals and dominated just like we did first half. Juve were the better team but Man United with a better striker would have nicked a point.
 
Of course we would. We have weaknesses, but everyone in our team is playing so far away from their best and that is down to the manager. You want your manager to prove they can get a system which brings the best out of your players first before justifying spending hundreds of millions on players. We have quality players all around the pitch, plenty of quality young players, but a few glaring holes. Some signings are of course needed. But nothing dramatic. Look at Arsenal with Emery. Look at Sarri with Chelsea. Look at Liverpool with Klopp vs them with Rodgers. Look at City with Pellegrini vs them with Pep. Look at Real Madrid with Zidane and the with Lopetegui. Literally countless examples. One manager can get this group of players playing quality attacking, high pressing football and be an entertaining team, while another manager will park the bus.

Saying "we wouldn't be any better with a new manager" is such complete bullshit and laughable. Yeah, we won't be better off if we bring in another defensive manager like Simeone or Conte or Allegri or something like that. The people in charge need some self-awareness and realize what United is as a club and what type of manager this club needs. Not Moyes, who has always been mid table level and more defensive minded than attacking. Not Van Gaal who is obsessed with possession statistics and not letting the opposition create chances rather then focusing on creativity. Not Mourinho who is seemingly obsessed with being as anti-Barcelona/anti-Pep/anti-Klopp as possible and try and prove that his way is better than that way of playing. We need an attacking manager who understands the club, its traditions, and will encourage the team to play towards that.


Fair point but tell me really which players are playing far from the best? I would only say Pogba and Matic. Because my opinion is the rest is not good enough or not ready to be starters for a big club.
 
I believe that the only way Martial and Rash will be ready to perform at the level we want is for them to play. Agree completely about our so-called striker but you’re being harsh on Shaw though you’re correct about our full-back issues overall. The current squad are not showing their true talent as they’re not being allowed to.

I like Shaw but he is not attacking fullback.
 
Ah right, just like how in 2013 we walked to the title but the next year it was all down to the players not being anywhere near good enough and 7th was a realistic position for us. We're fecking 10th right now. 10th! We finished 2nd last year and the fans were still annoyed with how shit the football was after January. Don't give me some shit about how we won't be better with another manager. Our players are good enough to outplay the likes of Leicester, Derby, Brighton, West Ham, Newcastle, etc..

I agree we should win all those teams. But we have so many players that should be playing for a club like those. It’s not good enough to only have Sanchez, Pogba, De Gea as topp players and rest average and expect to win everything.
 
Is Jose the man to take us forward? probably not,having said that,the players are actually overrated and ANY manager including pep would struggle with this lot,they are 100 percent bang average and thats the reality!
 
Of course we would. We have weaknesses, but everyone in our team is playing so far away from their best and that is down to the manager. You want your manager to prove they can get a system which brings the best out of your players first before justifying spending hundreds of millions on players. We have quality players all around the pitch, plenty of quality young players, but a few glaring holes. Some signings are of course needed. But nothing dramatic. Look at Arsenal with Emery. Look at Sarri with Chelsea. Look at Liverpool with Klopp vs them with Rodgers. Look at City with Pellegrini vs them with Pep. Look at Real Madrid with Zidane and the with Lopetegui. Literally countless examples. One manager can get this group of players playing quality attacking, high pressing football and be an entertaining team, while another manager will park the bus.

Saying "we wouldn't be any better with a new manager" is such complete bullshit and laughable. Yeah, we won't be better off if we bring in another defensive manager like Simeone or Conte or Allegri or something like that. The people in charge need some self-awareness and realize what United is as a club and what type of manager this club needs. Not Moyes, who has always been mid table level and more defensive minded than attacking. Not Van Gaal who is obsessed with possession statistics and not letting the opposition create chances rather then focusing on creativity. Not Mourinho who is seemingly obsessed with being as anti-Barcelona/anti-Pep/anti-Klopp as possible and try and prove that his way is better than that way of playing. We need an attacking manager who understands the club, its traditions, and will encourage the team to play towards that.

This 100%.
 
Is Jose the man to take us forward? probably not,having said that,the players are actually overrated and ANY manager including pep would struggle with this lot,they are 100 percent bang average and thats the reality!

I almost had to report this post for being so wrong. Most of our players would do well if not flourish under a proper manager. Those that don't will get binned. Mourinho has not done either of these things.
 
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We have decent players. Maybe not in every position, but most positions. A different manager would get more out of the same set of players.
 
Fair point but tell me really which players are playing far from the best? I would only say Pogba and Matic. Because my opinion is the rest is not good enough or not ready to be starters for a big club.
I think every single one of them have shown better form either under different managers or in different clubs or systems. When it's a collective issue it underperforming, I think that points entirely to the manager failing.

Not saying they're all good enough. But theyre all far from their individual best anyway. Never rated lukaku but he was far better at Everton than at United, for example.
 
We have 3 great players in De Gea, Pogba and Martial, and 2 young fullbacks with great potential in Shaw and Dalot. The rest are bang average and will need to be replaced sooner rather than better.

Hopefully next manager pulls the trigger on them.
 
I almost had to report this post for being so wrong. Most of our players would do well id nor flourish under a proper manager. Those that don't will get binned. Mourinho has not done either of these things.

I dunno about a lot of them being 'bang average' but maybe they aren't as good as we'd like to think. And/or are underperforming too or others are doing that although they are probably good enough.

But the CB need a dedicated DM or we ship goals. The dedicated DM does nothing else for the MF. The ball can't be transferred & recycled through the guy playing at CF so that doesn't help the MF. Are Rashford & Martial getting enough ball?

Some of that doesn't matter who the Manager is? I don't think he helps with some of that or some other stuff but it isnt ALL his fault either.

I don't know for sure, but I *reckon* it's a genuine mess & not about to be magicked into a revival.
 
Bit better 2nd half but overall we were thoroughly outclassed.

We were at home but we parked the bus and looked a bit shocked at just how much better than us they were , the reality is that at this level we have become little more than minnows when up against the big boys.

The gulf in class was huge at times , although we did improve when they seemed to take the foot off the peddle a bit , but it is always reactionary from us never proactive.

We could have sneaked a draw but it would have been undeserved.
 
Liam Brady basically saying what i had thought. Our players looked rudderless. There was no technique to their play. Just get lucky. Whereas the Juve players were intelligent and had a game plan, game technique.
 
I have said for years that we lack creativity in midfield. And years later having endured Moyes and Van Gaal, we still lack creativity in midfield.

How can these high paid managers not see this. And that the only football brain we have in that area comes in one body alone - Mata - a willing Spaniard, who lets face has his best years behind him and is not seen as one of the better Spanish midfielders. Pogba is a glorified defensive midfielder who's indisciplined on and off the pitch and is a total waste of space (unlike Mata) Lukaku is bang off form because he gets no service. We are a mess. A concoction of lots of failed philosophies and it is a travesty that our club is in the state that it is currently in.
 
I believe they're putting in the effort. The players just aren't good enough against the likes of Juventus. Inferior in every position bar De Gea.
 
What I took from this game was their full backs showed why we needed to buy those fullbacks
 
What I took from this game was their full backs showed why we needed to buy those fullbacks
Simply this. Today's football is 100% reliant on full backs. Main reason why Real have won as much as they have in the past 3 seasons
 
Just got back from the game, cant believe I rushed to get to OT from work for them to play like that. I don't understand how a Manchester United manager can be so negative. No passion, no belief, Jose clearly doesn't believe in the players and this must affect their performances. There are some who aren't good enough and there are some who have been told by the manager they aren't good enough, that they must believe it themselves. Time for a change.
 
Simply this. Today's football is 100% reliant on full backs. Main reason why Real have won as much as they have in the past 3 seasons

Here’s hoping dalot is the next cancelo!
 
We have 3 great players in De Gea, Pogba and Martial, and 2 young fullbacks with great potential in Shaw and Dalot. The rest are bang average and will need to be replaced sooner rather than better.

Hopefully next manager pulls the trigger on them.

Honestly, Martial isn't great or world class as I've seen him described tonight. He's got the tools, as in the ability, to be so. But he has no consistency to his game and unfortunately it's looking like he doesn't have the brain to become a top level player.

We need our wingers to be the quality of the likes of Ryan Giggs, Martial is so far away from that right now, there's no comparison. Giggs was better than Martial is now at a younger age. I had high hopes for him, especially after his first year, but watching him amble about the pitch and live off brief, increasingly fleeting moments of quality just isn't cutting it anymore for me.
 
Honestly, Martial isn't great or world class as I've seen him described tonight. He's got the tools, as in the ability, to be so. But he has no consistency to his game and unfortunately it's looking like he doesn't have the brain to become a top level player.

We need our wingers to be the quality of the likes of Ryan Giggs, Martial is so far away from that right now, there's no comparison. Giggs was better than Martial is now at a younger age. I had high hopes for him, especially after his first year, but watching him amble about the pitch and live off brief, increasingly fleeting moments of quality just isn't cutting it anymore for me.

No disagreement that Martial needs to improve several key points in his style but you can see the potential he has and that with some improvement he can become world class, something I don''t see with most of our squad tbh, inlcuding Rashford.
 
Been totally frozen out by Jose after a few energetic performances, mind boggling.

Seems to be the norm for Jose this season. Play quite well and get frozen out - Andreas, Dalot and Fred all found that to be the case after a good game.
 
We have lot of quality, if not forced to play as wingbacks or full backs can hurt opposition badly, any manager with attacking intent will have his eyes lit up with the quality we have.

Our image of our players is made up by being exposed as a result of the tactics, and we carry them along too much in assessment of our players. They are not used on their strenghts. We have a squad when used to full potential can employ various systems and be great going forward with little more creativity and automatisms and better attacking drills then on display currently.

Apart from a right winger we have every thing a good attacking manager can dream of having, Mourinho just doesn't have the ability to use it.

The likes of Herrera and fred totally being wasted who can be used as pressing machines. Rashford and Martial play as wingbacks half the time, Sanchez is being wasted when he needs to play much closer to oppositions goal, bailly can play much better, similar with lindelof if there is def mid who is willing to press in the middle and hold the play.

If we bought right in the market this summer, we could be on a different level, and we have all the resources to get there, our managers lack the vision to build this team. Even simple proactive pressing can make us look so better at times when we are chasing the game, but we don't do it for 90 mins on same intensity wonder why not.

A proper manager who wants to attack can improve our current players on a very good level. Even the likes of Lukaku looked much better at Everton than under mourinho, he was a bully albeit, players were vary of him back at Everton, now he is just super easy to handle.

We need a few tweaks I agree , but not 500 m worth of quality.
Absolutely. We have the players to play a much different proactive style of football which plays to strengths of our players. Even Lindelof looked composed when pressing high in the 2nd half and much far away from the nervewrack he is when we defend with 10 men behind the ball. We know Smalling can do it when eople were calling him mike so all the resources are there to be a powerful force. With maybe 2/3 signings and a better manager we can challenge for the PL again.
 
No disagreement that Martial needs to improve several key points in his style but you can see the potential he has and that with some improvement he can become world class, something I don''t see with most of our squad tbh, inlcuding Rashford.

I can see how he could become a good player. Like if he had Arjen Robbens brain, he'd be brilliant. But that's the issue.

Honestly I'd love to know what our coaches really think of him and what they go through with him on the training pitch. The first thing I'd drill out of him is his laborious, languid style. As a winger he needs to be moving all the time, trying different movements to create space, he needs inspiring and teaching how to play effectively. It's so, so basic what he does now.
 
I can see how he could become a good player. Like if he had Arjen Robbens brain, he'd be brilliant. But that's the issue.

Honestly I'd love to know what our coaches really think of him and what they go through with him on the training pitch. The first thing I'd drill out of him is his laborious, languid style. As a winger he needs to be moving all the time, trying different movements to create space, he needs inspiring and teaching how to play effectively. It's so, so basic what he does now.

Yeah he surely needs to impove his movement on the pitch. It hasn't improved much since he came so don't know why the coaches are not insisting on this on him in training sessions. If he improved his overall movement he will get into dangerous positions more and will benefit from his great finishing.
 

Player Ratings

5.1 Total Average Rating

Highest Rated Player

Lowest Rated Player

Compiled from 390 ratings.

Score Predictions

195,121,118
  • Man Utd win
  • Juventus win
  • Draw

Detailed Results

  • 22% Man Utd 2:1 Juventus
  • 18% Man Utd 1:1 Juventus
  • 12% Man Utd 1:2 Juventus
  • 7% Man Utd 2:0 Juventus
  • 6% Man Utd 0:2 Juventus
  • 6% Man Utd 1:0 Juventus
  • 5% Man Utd 0:0 Juventus
  • 4% Man Utd 2:2 Juventus
  • 4% Man Utd 1:3 Juventus
  • 3% Man Utd 3:1 Juventus
  • 3% Man Utd 3:2 Juventus
  • 2% Man Utd 0:1 Juventus
  • 2% Man Utd 5:0 Juventus
  • 2% Man Utd 0:3 Juventus
  • 1% Man Utd 3:0 Juventus
  • 1% Man Utd 0:5 Juventus
  • 1% Man Utd 0:4 Juventus
  • 1% Man Utd 4:1 Juventus
  • 0% Man Utd 5:1 Juventus
  • 0% Man Utd 1:4 Juventus
Compiled from 434 predictions.
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Match Stats

  1. Man Utd
  2. Juventus
Possession
39% 61%
Shots
6 14
Shots on Target
2 5
Corners
2 6
Fouls
16 14

Referee

Milorad Mazic