Only if they're sharing the same lift.
Poll: Is Wayne Rooney past it and should he be sold?
- Thread starter Raees
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Only if they're sharing the same lift.
I was reading earlier that Rooney is yet to outscore Giroud in his three seasons in England , while the general perception is that Giroud 'isnt good enough ' and that Rooney is the 'heartbeat of England and United '.
Without having looked into it, I'd venture that maybe Rooney's goals + assists tally are at least as good or even better than Giroud's (except maybe this year where Arsenal have been creating a huge lot more than us and where Giroud has probably played more than Rooney, without even going into the position debate). I'd say that the general perception bit is also that Giroud often comes up short (it's not a perception, but a fact when you actually watch him) in big games, whereas Rooney over the course of his career has been very good against top sides. At this point in time, nobody would label Rooney a flat track bully for example cos his career suggests it's not the case.
Quick check says that this season Rooney played 1000 minutes more than Giroud in Premierleague and has just two assists more. As for the flat track bully thing, I know you are talking about his career in general, but this season Giroud scored in both games against Liverpool, one time against City, and one time against United, not bad at all considering he missed lot of important games in first half of the season anyway because of an injury, but he did make up for it in the second half of the season scoring mentioned goals. People forget that Arsenal were crap in general in big games over last few years, even better players than Giroud would hardly have better record.
As for the playing out of position debate, Rooney's record as a striker this season has been actually very poor, it's not just playing in midfield that stopped him from scoring goals. And there's that stat that says he has scored just 1 away goal in year and 2-3 months which is terrible record even for players that play for relegation sides, let alone Manchester United's forward.
I don't totally agree with the 'Rooney up front is poor', well I know what the numbers are this season but I'm pretty convinced that in a settled team with many creators (such as Arsenal), Rooney playing every game in the #9 position would have brilliant numbers. I also don't think he'd miss as many easy chances as Giroud, as I think he's a very clinical striker.
But I didn't even want to get into that debate, and I think this season is a bit flawed for comparison given how settled and creative Arsenal have been vs. our team. I was really reacting to Rozay's post and mainly the perception he talked about. If Giroud keeps up the good stats but is also more decisive in the CL and in big games (I know you've pointed some out for this season, I still wouldn't think of him as a deciding factor in a big game personally), that perception will surely change.
Our attacking players are all going to look bad compared to their Arsenal equivalents over the last two years because - as a team - we've been crap throughout that period. Arsenal have been all over the shop defensively but far better than us in an attacking sense and racked up a bunch of cricket scores against crap teams, while we've been bereft of all confidence, playing cautious and boring football against the same teams under Moyes and Van Gaal. That's without even getting into the fact that both Moyes and Van Gaal regularly played Rooney in midfield, which makes comparing his output with a striker completely pointless.
All this years we have been putting suffixes a plenty for rooney. But, if, despites, workrate, played out of position, passion, if only he got a good midfielder, sacrificed for ronaldo, can't play with berbatov, injury, bad form, purple patches, wait till he's on form, late starter etc.
While other great strikers just go out there and bang em in. Batistuta played for fiorentina, torres only have gerrard as his partner, suarez is actually doing it by himself, none of them have the luxury excuses rooney have had all these years.
While other great strikers just go out there and bang em in. Batistuta played for fiorentina, torres only have gerrard as his partner, suarez is actually doing it by himself, none of them have the luxury excuses rooney have had all these years.
You say that as though none of those strikers you mention have ever had underwhelming seasons, which resulted in people looking for reasons why.
Which is wrong, obviously.
Which is wrong, obviously.
Neither Batistuta or Torres or Suarez had to play both wing positions, cm position or dm position, they've been up-front constantly.
Batistuta played in the team that over the years had players like Toldo, Dunga, Effenberg, Rui Costa, hardly bunch of nobodies, yet it seems like he had to do it all by himself.
Torres only had Gerrard as partner? I assume that having Mascherano and X.Alonso as midfield pair counts for nothing then.
Suarez is the only one who's done most on his own, but being better player than Rooney and having more settled team that's hardly surprise.
Rooney is far from his best days, that's not hard to see, but reading what you wrote I would think it's about some lucky bastard that stole living at United, not player that everyone who ever played with him or against him, or coached him (even Sir Alex) spoke so highly.
He shouldn't have luxury of being undroppable, no one should, but this team has to many flaws at the moment (GK postion after DG leaves, RB position, CB position, CDM position) that need to be addressed before we try to ship out one of rare players that performed to certain level needed from United player(s).
That's just my opinion, I could be very wrong, but still don't see how is Rooney problem when there's so much bigger issues this team has.
Messi said: “If you look at the technical ability of a player like Wayne Rooney, he is as good as any player in Europe.
“Rooney has exceptional quality. Not just great technical ability, but also works very hard for his team. I’m sure Manchester United will never want to let him leave, though.”
To be singled out by god is pretty special.
“Rooney has exceptional quality. Not just great technical ability, but also works very hard for his team. I’m sure Manchester United will never want to let him leave, though.”
To be singled out by god is pretty special.
Rooney is the second best goalscorer in Utd and England history, and in the PL (unless I'm mistaken). He's also the only player to have scored double figures in 11 consecutive seasons or something like that (though obviously not all players have stayed long enough in the PL to do the same). In any case, he has been consistently 'banging them in'.
Anyway, I think I'll just avoid this thread, this is the season of the year where Rooney reverts to a pub player, absolutely shite, touch of a baby elephant, disrespectful, sell him, no good anymore, etc. in the Caf psyche.
At his peak yes, but that statement in relation to Rooney's current level of performance is Pele-esque in terms of its accuracy.
Whilst his record is excellent and speaks for itself the bolded one isn't that impressive, that could mean in a huge chunk of them he could have scored 11 goals a season, which for a forward at a club like Utd in a time span that includes our most successful period in history isnt that impressive. ( I know he didnt, just saying you might want to focus on the amount of goals rather than that particular one
)
Neither Batistuta or Torres or Suarez had to play both wing positions, cm position or dm position, they've been up-front constantly.
Batistuta played in the team that over the years had players like Toldo, Dunga, Effenberg, Rui Costa, hardly bunch of nobodies, yet it seems like he had to do it all by himself.
Torres only had Gerrard as partner? I assume that having Mascherano and X.Alonso as midfield pair counts for nothing then.
Suarez is the only one who's done most on his own, but being better player than Rooney and having more settled team that's hardly surprise.
Rooney is far from his best days, that's not hard to see, but reading what you wrote I would think it's about some lucky bastard that stole living at United, not player that everyone who ever played with him or against him, or coached him (even Sir Alex) spoke so highly.
He shouldn't have luxury of being undroppable, no one should, but this team has to many flaws at the moment (GK postion after DG leaves, RB position, CB position, CDM position) that need to be addressed before we try to ship out one of rare players that performed to certain level needed from United player(s).
That's just my opinion, I could be very wrong, but still don't see how is Rooney problem when there's so much bigger issues this team has.
Rooney has probably played more than 90% of his United games as either the #9 or #10, which most accept are his better positions. He's also played some of his best football for us on the right-wing too, 2005 I think it was, culminating in an excellent FA Cup final performance against Arsenal which up until today I have no idea how they won. I think was similar for a spell in 2007 too, where Alan Smith was leading the line and Rooney and Ronaldo were wide.
Suarez, who as you say is a better player, played wide a lot before he came to England, similarly to how Cavani does now. He also developed into a better player, wheras in reality, he was nowhere near the sort of trajectory of being better than Rooney during the early part of his career. Rooney should have become better than he is I reckon. He's been a good player for us, and at times, even a great one. He'll break many goalscoring records too, but I think it is fair to say you just have to watch him fairly regularly to know you are not watching a real top-bracket footballer, not unless you choose to consider a variety of mitigating circumstances as many often are.
Whilst his record is excellent and speaks for itself the bolded one isn't that impressive, that could mean in a huge chunk of them he could have scored 11 goals a season, which for a forward at a club like Utd in a time span that includes our most successful period in history isnt that impressive. ( I know he didnt, just saying you might want to focus on the amount of goals rather than that particular one
Again, especially in comparison to the likes of Suarez/Aguero who were not first-choice penalty takers for their teams (and also miss a couple months a season for various reasons).
I do know he's past his best, I've said it numerous times that, but that doesn't mean he forgot how to play football overnight, he's still very good player, not someone like Torres who suddenly became unrecognisable.
With other areas of the team improving, mainly defence and cm creativity he won't be pushed around and his main taks will be inside the box finishing chances which I'm sure he'll do just fine.
But calling for him to be sold when we have much bigger issues is just time wasting.
Whilst he may not be a world beater he's still in the bracket just below that and we have other areas in the squad that need addressing before we consider getting rid of him. From what comes out of the camp it seems that he's a good leader and is doing a good job as captain too so surely disrupting the squad in that way so soon after he was given the armband would be a step backwards.
I'm all for adding more options up top but the 'big' money during this window needs spending elsewhere.
I also think that with a 'better' supporting cast that create more opportunities then Rooney will still bang in 15-20+ goals across all competitions for the next two seasons. I can't remember him missing lots of sitters this season, more a lack of clear cut chances which is down to a split between him not getting into the right positions but also the midfield and wide men not creating enough (possibly down to the cautious, no risk approach we adopted for large chunks of the season)
I'm all for adding more options up top but the 'big' money during this window needs spending elsewhere.
I also think that with a 'better' supporting cast that create more opportunities then Rooney will still bang in 15-20+ goals across all competitions for the next two seasons. I can't remember him missing lots of sitters this season, more a lack of clear cut chances which is down to a split between him not getting into the right positions but also the midfield and wide men not creating enough (possibly down to the cautious, no risk approach we adopted for large chunks of the season)
pretty sure messi doesn't watch him every week. And clearly hasn't seen his bottom level
Does anyone have the stats for the number of times he has actually played in central midfield in the past 5 years or so?
Whilst his record is excellent and speaks for itself the bolded one isn't that impressive, that could mean in a huge chunk of them he could have scored 11 goals a season, which for a forward at a club like Utd in a time span that includes our most successful period in history isnt that impressive. ( I know he didnt, just saying you might want to focus on the amount of goals rather than that particular one
I do think it’s an impressive stat, in that Rooney’s generally been very consistent in the scoring department and has consistently scored a decent number of goals for us, but I think it’s also quite telling than in that decade or so, he’s only had a couple of seasons where he’s managed to eclipse 20 goals in the league. He’s pretty much been good scoring wise every season he’s been here, but he’s only had a couple of seasons where his tally has been absolutely brilliant.
Selling him is an absolute nonstart at the moment.
It's not like Rooney is fading and getting overtaken by a stable of top class strikers. Even if he has lost as much as some folks are saying here, without a viable replacement in hand it would be utterly foolish to sell him at this point.
It's not like Rooney is fading and getting overtaken by a stable of top class strikers. Even if he has lost as much as some folks are saying here, without a viable replacement in hand it would be utterly foolish to sell him at this point.
But we can not look at his scoring statistics in isolation as it is s known fact that Rooney has been moved around, positionally, throughout his time here. So you can't, for instance, compare his 2010-2011 stats with a player who played as a no.9 the whole season that year and the same applies to this season too. So yes he's only ever scored 30+ goals a couple of times but how many no.10s and no.8 were consistently hitting the numbers he was hitting when he played those roles?
In my view Rooney suffered from 2010 onwards because of our failure to strengthen the team properly especially addressing the creativity issues that have dogged us since then. If we had done that in 2010 there is no doubt in my mind that he would have done a lot better in that department. Even now when he has 'faded', if we surround him with players that will create chances and play purposeful football he will easily pass the 30 goal mark.
so much to agree with in this post.
This, for me, won't be easy under van Gaal. Unless van Gaal becomes heavily reliant on his wide players to create chances, we will struggle to accommodate Rooney as either a midfielder or a striker.
He did show for several matches that he possibly regained that sharpness that he had during the 2009/10 season, and I think that, if he plays as a #9 consistently, he can probably become a useful striker for us (maybe not our main #9 due to his sloppiness on the ball under pressure, but since we have no other better options, he's the best one for now). He still has the knack of being in the right place at the right time, and his finishing is still world class. Plus, when he's not off form, he can hold the ball up well and stretch the opposition defence. His best role, however, is what he played for much of his career: partnering a proper striker. Unless van Gaal starts to rely on his wingers to create all of the chances, I don't see Rooney playing how he did under Sir Alex for much of his time here.
This, completely.
Wayne Rooney has a 1 in 2 goal ratio for us over a 10 year period, ffs! Despite being fecked around positionally multiple times.
How this is even a thread baffles me.
Because when he played as striker under LvG, he was generally average/crap compare to other top team strikers. And I don't think he'd turn into the envy of the world striker in the future.
People making excuse of "the team need to get the right players to get the best out of Rooney." With his consistently erratic performance seasons after seasons, do people honestly think he deserves it?
People making excuse of "the team need to get the right players to get the best out of Rooney." With his consistently erratic performance seasons after seasons, do people honestly think he deserves it?
Again, he's a 1 in 2 striker over 10 years, and he's still in his 20s.
LVG even said early on he wasn't good enough to be his main striker
To be fair, while his goalscoring has very often been consistent, some of his overall performances have been inconsistent. I don't think that's too ridiculous an argument.
He's a 1 in 2 striker, and is proven so over a long amount of time!
Play him as a 9 for 40 games and you'll get 20 goals.
He wasn't talking solely about his goalscoring though.
He'll give you more assists than other strikers do too.
None of which I'm denying. He has been, and remains, a very productive player. But I don't think it's ridiculous to suggest that his overall game can be inconsistent and erratic.
Everyone's can be. Save for Messi I guess.
It gets much more exaggerated with Rooney though.
It gets much more exaggerated with Rooney though.
He is past his best without a doubt, players peak at all different times in their careers and rooney's has been and gone. He has lost a bit of pace and acceleration and sometimes that is all it takes, falcao was the same and reputations do sometimes over shadow someone's current ability. For all the hype this season about RVP, Rooney and falcao the reality was we had three players all past their best who couldn't play together.
He is still a good player and I don't see the point in selling him and realistically I don't think we would be able to given the ridiculous contract we gave him but we need to find new top class players to carry us forward because we simply don't have them at the moment.
He is still a good player and I don't see the point in selling him and realistically I don't think we would be able to given the ridiculous contract we gave him but we need to find new top class players to carry us forward because we simply don't have them at the moment.
And yet - he's a 1 in 2 goalscorer over a 10 year period and gives us more assists than any other striker available.
Aguero/Suarez/Costa's game would be erratic if they spent a season managed by Moyes and then spent the next one moonlighting as a defensive midfielder!
The fact remains that Rooney is an incredibly productive striker. He needs to be played as a striker for an entire season, if you do that, it's firmly proven that he'll give you a goal every other game, and plenty of assists.
that's pathetic. any other player would be dropped for that Ireland performance
@JUPITER what are you going on about? We might as well resign Vidic, and Falcao in your book. You are talking about Rooney in the past, who was world class. But at the moment, he's past his peak and isnt as good as he was before. Even that, 1 in 2 is about the least we should expect from a club who wants to be the best of the world. Look op Rvn's ratio for example, that's what we need at the moment.
And that has got what, exactly, to do with the link I posted?