You really didn't see the derisory laughter after the post about Rafaels need to to improve? Really?
Phil Jones
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran are here to talk about a frustrating 2 points dropped at Crystal Palace. They then discuss the regeneration of Old Trafford. Finally, Nik is joined by special guest Michael Statham from the Football Oranje podcast - who gives us a more in depth look at our EL opposition FC Twente, and then runs through the (many) Dutch connections currently at United.
You really didn't see the derisory laughter after the post about Rafaels need to to improve? Really?
Bang on.
I "lolled" at that too. I wasn't laughing at his defending needing to improve, every player needs to improve himself. I was "lolling" at the fact it needs to improve or Jones will overtake him.
Rafael's defending is still miles ahead of Jones'. A good game against Villa doesn't change that. Jones has had numerous shockers, it seems however that he is remembered for the good ones and Rafael for the bad ones.
Brazilian right backs with attacking flair can't defend as well, remember?
When did this become so pervasive as an argument? It's such a victim complex. And rarely true, Rafael rightfully gets as much love as anyone on this site. He has been touted as our player of the season at times ffs. Not so with Jones, who really has seen a lowering of his stock this season.
Regardless, that doesn't mean people can't have a pop. And if you disagree with something and are only going to offer a is a smile. Don't. It just throws the discussion.
Jones is a great option there, and has played very well there recently. Rafael is brilliant there, a very strong candidate indeed as the best RB in the league. He's better defensively and better offensively, and that's no slight on Jones.
I don't see how anyone can objectively disagree.
I don't see how anyone can objectively disagree.
What's wrong with that? Only van Persie stands out as other candidate really.
Completely agree. Right now Rafael is much better than Jones as a RB, and IMO has been the best RB in the league in this season. Jones on the other side is playing very good and he is a good backup as a RB and can be used as a defensive midfielder.
Read the post. All the post.
I was saying, that contrary to him getting unfair analysis, he has been touted as POTY. I never said it was right, wrong or otherwise, just that it happened.
And if you read the thread you would know that two pages ago, I said this
I don't think the ffs was incredulity that he should be touted as player of the season but as emphasis to Pexbo that he is justifiably touted as something special on this board.
It's amazing the transformation in Caftards' views on Jones.
After a spell of injuries and poor form, you'd think reading the posts on here that he was some sort of lumbering oaf with no skill or any attribute beyond physical ones and a desire to get stuck in.
In fact he's fecking talented. Yes he's got a lot to learn, particularly if he's really going to be a CM. But he looks absolute class to me.
I actually read all that, but I think even his haters would say he has been our best player this season alongside van Persie. He has been touted because he deserves to be(as you said), while Jones played three games this season, so of course there should be big difference between praising those two.
Amen to that.
I don't mean it as a rule of thumb, he's getting the plaudits on here because he deserves them and people on here probably take more notice of the game and players performances.
It's just that your average fan and seemingly pundit has a hard on for some players and can't see it with others. "Stevie Gerrard Syndrome" and "David De Gea Syndrome".
Rafael has kept some fantastic players in his pocket, Bale couldn't get a sniff on a couple of occasions, yet it's the occasional mistake that somehow proves to everyone that he is "rash" and not good defensively. When Vidic was at his peak and hailed as world class, he occasionally went for balls he shouldn't have or lost his man and we conceded because of it. That didn't make us question his defending.
Now I'm not saying that Rafael is at Vidic's level or anything like that but I think it's fair to give him the credit for the excellent right back he is now. He's proven over a number of games that he has the ability and has made the step up. I think it's very unfair to suggest that if he doesn't improve his defending then Jones will have his spot because in truth it's Jones that desperately needs to work on areas of his defending.
Ok, but that's not what I said. I was replying to your assertion that Jones is seen through rose tinted specs and Rafael is judged on his bad days.
I don't know what your point is anymore. I was repsonding to a specific point.
ie That Rafael is not given the credit he deserves.
While I and you think he does both deserve and get the credit.
I was just trying to show that your argument "he was touted as our POTY at times" isn't saying much, because whoever watched United regulary this season would call him our best player alongside Robin.
But, we agree, so no need to discuss anymore about it.
Capello's praise is still spot on. After playing with us for just a couple of months he convinced Capello he was a top footballer - something Carrick struggled with for years. There's no question he's done well in a destroyer role for Blackburn and England and even though he's still learning he's shown flashes of outstanding potential at centre half, but I think the fact he's excelling at right back has surprised everyone. Allardyce said he had no idea Jones could cross and now he's one of our best crossers. He's got the potential to be the captain and one of the best players for club and country.
He and Smalling really could form a very special partnership. The likes of Rio, Vidic, Pallister, McGrath, Moran, Buchan and co. all came here at 22-24 whereas we've had Jones and Smalling at 19 and 20 respectively. Evans has been here since he was a kid. That strong British core has us well sorted for a decade.
That's exactly what I replied to, I covered that. I said that while it isn't the case on here any more there is still that feeling with lots of fans which I don't understand. Jones is still heralded by some as the second coming despite having a number of poor performances in various positions to the point that everyone says "he's obviously a good player but he can't play here because of X and here because of Y"
Tonjo's insinuation that Rafael doesn't do his job defensively while Jones has somehow shown himself to be a potentially brilliant defender, is one that I have heard a few times (away from the Caf) and don't understand.
It is saying exactly what it is supposed to say?
That he has been good and it has been seen to have been so.
It was a response to him being seen as poor despite being good.
I think the person I was talking to is who you have the isue with.
I supose it's the threads you read. I think overall everyone gets an unduly hard or praiseworthy time on hear. Jones has gone from Duncan Edwards to a shit John O Shea and back on here.
I did but I was not sure if IAR was laughing at specifically that. I guess I missed something.
Nah, I am ok with Pexbo's views on rafael, looks like we have missunderstanding here.
btw, congrats on your 15000th post.
While I think Phil Jones is an incredible talent, and not just physically, I think that from Capello is way over the top.
He heralds his decision making as one of his strong suits - and it really, really isn't. Choosing the right option on the ball isn't one of his strengths, it's one of the things he needs to work on the most.
I think he's got a number of really good attributes and his natural ability is stunning. What he's not got at the moment is a favoured position, at least in the eyes of his manager.
I'm not seeing him ever becoming the same type of player as Hierro or Baresi, that's insane. He excels in basically everything BUT the main ingredients to play the holding midfield role to perfection.
Strange quotes from Capello all in all.
I agree actually, his choice of pass under pressure is not one of his stronger attributes.
His passing overall is not great, so while he may be great midfielder one day, it's not apparent from his outings in our first team.
Phil Jones is only 20 years old.
Rafael Pereira da Silva is only 22 years old.
Both are sensational young footballers. Both are good enough to make any club in England. Based on what we've seen so far this season, Rafael is good enough to start at RB for any club in England. Based on what we've seen from Jones over the last season and a half he would be a valuable utility man at several positions for any of the Top Four clubs and would start at RB for any non Top Four and may even start at CB for any non Top Ten club.
There's really nothing to slag about one player or the other. Both can improve different aspects of their game, but let's not overlook the fact that both are valuable players for one of the top give or six football clubs on the planet.
Rafael Pereira da Silva is only 22 years old.
Both are sensational young footballers. Both are good enough to make any club in England. Based on what we've seen so far this season, Rafael is good enough to start at RB for any club in England. Based on what we've seen from Jones over the last season and a half he would be a valuable utility man at several positions for any of the Top Four clubs and would start at RB for any non Top Four and may even start at CB for any non Top Ten club.
There's really nothing to slag about one player or the other. Both can improve different aspects of their game, but let's not overlook the fact that both are valuable players for one of the top give or six football clubs on the planet.
Whoever posted that Bielsa quote is spot on. When two players are compared, it's rarely ever effective or fair. Exactly why I think Messi and Ronaldo comparisons are ridiculous. Both sides stuck in their preconceived notions which they KNOW won't convince the other side. I used to not mind it so much but it gets vile these days.
I was laughing at the idea that Rafael must improve his defending else Phil Jones will take his place, Phil Jones... a man who seriously does need to improve his defending.
I just think moses got the wrong impression of the smilies.
Not sure if that's lol worthy but that's bit of a silly opinion to say already. On current levels, I'd take Rafael comfortably. Jones is doing well right now. No reason to get carried away. Either will have a poor spell every now and then. At least we have options.
Why are you pair ignoring the earlier discussion & PMs? It's not that he was right or wrong. These are discussion boards, so if someone is wrong, reach deep inside and try not to be a feckwit about it. It's not just about today or this thread. Done talking now, so wise up suckers.
Patience is a virtue...with both internet forums and young defenders.
I really dont feel it's worth going any further. Let's just drop it.
He seems to talk an awful lot in the media. I personally think youngsters who have yet to establish themselves should keep a low profile.
So is he the one that goes to the media or do the media come to him?
He's going to be an absolute star, I'm sure on here he'll oscillate between being the new Duncan Edwards/John Terry to being the new O'Shea until in about 4 years time he's a regular and discussed as Phil Jones, bloody good and complete footballer.
Its rather hard for them to keep a low profile though when playing for us and being young and english. The media latch onto them and seek him out for interviews. It is a fine line between answering their questions and seeking the attention out yourself.
Capello for all his faults as England manager, on the whole usually knows his shit.. he has a proven track record. The fact that he himself was a holding midfielder who dictated the tempo lends that analysis of his even more credence..
I think alot of people are harsh on Jones, quick to make judgements... the kid is an unpredictable talent, very hard to speculate on what will be his final position, whether or not he's even going to be a player who stays fit over the course of a season and progresses at a rapid speed..
There's glimpses of decent technical ability from him, in a number of U21 games.. he was very good on the ball, against Chelsea while he was at Blackburn.. he was rock solid but of course its harder to be a defender for United when there is a bigger gap between attack and defence and less protection, due to the fact you're playing for an attacking team and having to react to the counter more often than not - it's a big step up.
I hope he becomes this club's Carlos Puyol.. might take a while to get his shit together but once his game just clicks and physically he feels 100% and comfortable in his own body.. the errors in judgement will hopefully be eliminated and he will play with more composure. People are quick to write him off due to Smalling being so accomplished even now.. but no two players are the same and their rates of development will be different.
In terms of hair, or in terms of the football?
We should encourage Jones to have Puyol hair and get Rafael to go to the hair dresser and simply say: "Carlos Valderrama". If that doesnt get the Fellaini deal over the line I dont know what will.