Phil Jones

Rafael may be first choice RB at the moment but if he doesn't improve in his defending, Jones will surely overtake him and make RB his own.
Jones has speed and physique, wingers will not find it easy to get past him.
He is like the G. Neville type who is not tall enough for a CB.
 
Tonjo said:
Rafael may be first choice RB at the moment but if he doesn't improve in his defending, Jones will surely overtake him and make RB his own.
Jones has speed and physique, wingers will not find it easy to get past him.
He is like the G. Neville type who is not tall enough for a CB.
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:lol:
 
Tonjo said:
Rafael may be first choice RB at the moment but if he doesn't improve in his defending, Jones will surely overtake him and make RB his own.
Jones has speed and physique, wingers will not find it easy to get past him.
He is like the G. Neville type who is not tall enough for a CB.
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There's nothing wrong with Rafaels current defending as it is, and his much greater attacking abilities will make up for any defensive advantages that Jones may offer (barring the few games a season where SAF will opt for height). If Rafaels current performances are maintained then he's got that right back spot nailed down for the foreseeable future.
 
Tonjo said:
Rafael may be first choice RB at the moment but if he doesn't improve in his defending, Jones will surely overtake him and make RB his own.
Jones has speed and physique, wingers will not find it easy to get past him.
He is like the G. Neville type who is not tall enough for a CB.
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I have no problem at all with Rafael, whose defending has been nothing short of sensational, as a defender. In fact, he'd be on my all XI prem side and it's not because he's a prolific goal scorer. He's nearing that stage in his career where is can be said he is a complete fullback.

But if he had to sit out a game or two, Jones can fill in quite comfortably.
 
Ruud10 said:
There's no reason why Jones can't cover for Carrick.
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True, but at this point that seems to be the place where Jones fits into the team. A cover for a whole bunch of different positions. I just can't see him locking down a spot consistently right now. Decent player to have as cover though.

Tonjo said:
Rafael may be first choice RB at the moment but if he doesn't improve in his defending, Jones will surely overtake him and make RB his own.
Jones has speed and physique, wingers will not find it easy to get past him.
He is like the G. Neville type who is not tall enough for a CB.
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Rafael's defending is fine. He has shown that he is solid at the back so far this season. Its just his switching off at the end of last season that has given him this reputation among some fans. Plus Rafael gives a lot more going forward right now than Jones.
 
Dargonk said:
True, but at this point that seems to be the place where Jones fits into the team. A cover for a whole bunch of different positions. I just can't see him locking down a spot consistently right now. Decent player to have as cover though.
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That's actually not a problem we should be worried about. In fact, it's a fantastic thing that we have a player of Jonesey's caliber and youth who can handle himself so well in so many positions. More than decent IMHO.
 
Tonjo said:
Rafael may be first choice RB at the moment but if he doesn't improve in his defending, Jones will surely overtake him and make RB his own.
Jones has speed and physique, wingers will not find it easy to get past him.
He is like the G. Neville type who is not tall enough for a CB.
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:lol::lol:
 
I think Rafael and him are pretty even actually. Jones has the edge over him when it comes to aerial ability and I think he's a better crosser of the ball. Rafael's quicker in the tackle.

When they're both at their best I think it's very close.
 
I think a Jones - Cleverley partnership could have some merit. Both have the work rate and hustle, both are box-to-box players who are happy to push forwards but also cover a lot of ground in defence.

Cleverley is obviously the more technical, intricate player who likes to tick things over. Jones is the more direct, powerful player who is prepared to carry the ball forwards, make lung busting runs and crunching tackles.

The two actually complement each other pretty well. Put Rooney just in front of them to provide the more attacking flair and you actually have a good base there, plus there is always Anderson to throw into the mix as well.
 
Pexbo said:
:lol:
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I'm always right said:
:lol::lol:
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Not sure why the derision. Have you already forgotten him getting hooked at 31min against Reading? I agree, I think Rafael is the better RB at the moment but you can't ignore the fact that he is still defensively suspect and terribly naive at times.

Acceptable because of his age, but there's still a lot of scope for improvement.
 
beacon said:
Not sure why the derision. Have you already forgotten him getting hooked at 31min against Reading? I agree, I think Rafael is the better RB at the moment but you can't ignore the fact that he is still defensively suspect and terribly naive at times.

Acceptable because of his age, but there's still a lot of scope for improvement.
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I think that's the most improved part of his game, he seems to have grown up since we took his brother away from him. Evra is more suspect when he goes up and then can't come back or leaves big gaps at left back - Rafael on the other hand has hardly done that plus he has the legs to get back if he does and 9/10 he does.
 
I don't disagree, he has improved massively, but he's not the finished article (I don't expect him to be), and I don't think it's unreasonable to criticise his defending still. A United first choice RB should not be struggling to cope with Reading.
 
beacon said:
I don't disagree, he has improved massively, but he's not the finished article (I don't expect him to be), and I don't think it's unreasonable to criticise his defending still. A United first choice RB should not be struggling to cope with Reading.
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He was hooked because we didn't defend set pieces at all and needed more height.

He wasn't to blame for any of the goals we let in.
 
Only that's not entirely true is it? He may not have been directly responsible, but there's no question that he wasn't coping.
 
beacon said:
Not sure why the derision. Have you already forgotten him getting hooked at 31min against Reading? I agree, I think Rafael is the better RB at the moment but you can't ignore the fact that he is still defensively suspect and terribly naive at times.

Acceptable because of his age, but there's still a lot of scope for improvement.
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Ridiculous, he was hooked against Reading more due to the failure of others. Ferdinand, Evans and Fletcher were having a fecking torrid time on every single set-piece, Rafael on the other hand was marking a fecking post. However, because the 3 aforementioned couldn't deal with aerial balls, Smalling had to come in as he's our best aerial defender along with Vidic. At that point it made more sense to pull a smaller guy to help on set-pieces.

And aside from the nonsense about Reading, he's been our BEST defender all season. Add to that some of the nightmares Jones had has with his defending in his time here, well, it just makes that post even more ridiculous. And that is why he got treated to this...

:lol:
 
There is no question that the whole defence was suspect against Reading, and any one of them could have been replaced to the benefit of the team. I disagree regarding Rafael though. I thought he was having a very poor game.

Regardless, I wasn't disagreeing with the fact that he is the better defender than Jones, it was the fact that you (or may have been Pexbo) specifically highlighted the comment about Rafael's defending improving as the source if derision. I still think he has a lot of improving to do, whilst some on here seem to talk about him as the finished article.
 
He has one good game but Rafael has been one of our best and most consistant player this season. No way can he be dropped if not to give him a rest
 
beacon said:
I still think he has a lot of improving to do, whilst some on here seem to talk about him as the finished article.
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Well that's where I disagree, I haven't seen a single full-back have a flawless season and aside from a few minutes vs. Reading, Rafael has been nothing short of sensational, in both defence and attack. Baines and Rafael have been the best 2 in the league by a mile, yes, Rafael had a couple of off moments against Reading but I'm certain he'd have corrected that had he been given the time, but there is no question that he made way due to the failure of others on set-peices. Many many players can have a slow start to a game and end up as MOTM by with a superb final hour. To use that as a stick to beat him with is just silly imo, hence the :lol:.
 
beacon said:
Only that's not entirely true is it? He may not have been directly responsible, but there's no question that he wasn't coping.
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If we're judging on performance alone, no way Rafael should be the one who's hooked from that back four. Both Evans and Rio were having shockers, but Fergie replaced the short guy with Smalling to stand us a better chance on set-pieces.
 
beacon said:
I don't disagree, he has improved massively, but he's not the finished article (I don't expect him to be), and I don't think it's unreasonable to criticise his defending still. A United first choice RB should not be struggling to cope with Reading.
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Going by that logic, what do you have to say for Rio and Evans because they were CLEARLY struggling?
 
Rafael was taken off against Reading because he was shit, and was booked and has a history of making stupid decisions. He had a shit day. That's allowed be remembered. Some of ye are like the fecking Stasi, rewriting history.

Rafael has looked better at the back this year, and will again next year. I love him as a player but he's not finished developing and if Jones develops quicker he'll start more games there. It's not rocket science, heresy or comedy to suggest that.

Precious gimps.
 
Ignoring the Rafael debacle, I'm starting to think RB is his best position.

I always felt he'll be a CB but he's looking really good as a full-back. He's got a very good touch and his drive going forward really adds something to the team.

Also, the one thing you could say about both him and Rafael is they want it badly. They're fecking winners. More of those in our team please.
 
Walrus said:
I think a Jones - Cleverley partnership could have some merit. Both have the work rate and hustle, both are box-to-box players who are happy to push forwards but also cover a lot of ground in defence.

Cleverley is obviously the more technical, intricate player who likes to tick things over. Jones is the more direct, powerful player who is prepared to carry the ball forwards, make lung busting runs and crunching tackles.
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Problem is currently Jones can't pass very well in the frenetic world of centre mid. That's a major problem as it's the main thing you need from a CM.

beacon said:
I don't disagree, he has improved massively, but he's not the finished article (I don't expect him to be), and I don't think it's unreasonable to criticise his defending still.
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Yeah I think Rafael's still pretty ropey defensively. He's committed as feck and a good tackler, and he's definitely giving away less free kicks than before. But he still gets skinned too often and is caught out of position too often.

That said, modern full-backs can't really defend in general, at least the ones who get forward.
 
beacon said:
I don't disagree, he has improved massively, but he's not the finished article (I don't expect him to be), and I don't think it's unreasonable to criticise his defending still. A United first choice RB should not be struggling to cope with Reading.
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Rio champions league winner, multiple league title winner Ferdinand struggled to cope with Jason Roberts. We're screwed then
 
marjen said:
If we're judging on performance alone, no way Rafael should be the one who's hooked from that back four. Both Evans and Rio were having shockers, but Fergie replaced the short guy with Smalling to stand us a better chance on set-pieces.
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Plato said:
Going by that logic, what do you have to say for Rio and Evans because they were CLEARLY struggling?
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Read post 3337 where I clearly stated the whole defence was suspect and any one of them could have been replaced. We're not discussing them though, we're discussing whether Rafael has room for improvement.


moses said:
Rafael was taken off against Reading because he was shit, and was booked and has a history of making stupid decisions. He had a shit day. That's allowed be remembered. Some of ye are like the fecking Stasi, rewriting history.

Rafael has looked better at the back this year, and will again next year. I love him as a player but he's not finished developing and if Jones develops quicker he'll start more games there. It's not rocket science, heresy or comedy to suggest that.

Precious gimps.
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Well said that man.
 
moses said:
If all you want is a platform to be "right", you can feck off. Seriously. This is a place to discuss football, not for you to lecture and sneer.
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Take a fecking look in the mirror moses. I was discussing it and I formed an argument, you came in and ranted and call everyone gimps.

So feel free to let me "feck off".
 
marjen said:
Ignoring the Rafael debacle, I'm starting to think RB is his best position.

I always felt he'll be a CB but he's looking really good as a full-back. He's got a very good touch and his drive going forward really adds something to the team.

Also, the one thing you could say about both him and Rafael is they want it badly. They're fecking winners. More of those in our team please.
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A now a miles better post, something I whole-heartedly agree with.
 
I hope he doesn't turn into a full back personally. The potential is clearly there to be a great central defender and I hope that's where he will be in a few years.
 
Walrus said:
I think a Jones - Cleverley partnership could have some merit. Both have the work rate and hustle, both are box-to-box players who are happy to push forwards but also cover a lot of ground in defence.

Cleverley is obviously the more technical, intricate player who likes to tick things over. Jones is the more direct, powerful player who is prepared to carry the ball forwards, make lung busting runs and crunching tackles.

The two actually complement each other pretty well. Put Rooney just in front of them to provide the more attacking flair and you actually have a good base there, plus there is always Anderson to throw into the mix as well.
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Those two together in midfield sound like a disaster. Neither of them have the positional discipline for it.
 
beacon said:
Read post 3337 where I clearly stated the whole defence was suspect and any one of them could have been replaced. We're not discussing them though, we're discussing whether Rafael has room for improvement.
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And judging by that then, Rio Ferdinand also has room for improvement.

I'll go one step further, 99% of the footballers in the World still have room for improvement if we're using a 30 minute off spell in which to judge players.
 
I'm always right said:
Take a fecking look in the mirror moses. I was discussing it and I formed an argument, you came in and ranted and call everyone gimps.

So feel free to let me "feck off".
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Formed an argument? With repeating the same point and using green smilies over and over. Formed an argument? Really? That's the same as shouting someone down, and laughing at them. That this has to be explained to you is telling. Your posts don't fade, you don't have to bang on. And on.

There are other ways to deal with people you disagree with other than shouting them down or laughing at them. Even if people are wrong they still deserve to be talked to and not sneered at. If you don't find a way to be less of a twat, them you an anyone else doing the same will be gone. With or without your blessing.
 
Cina said:
I hope he doesn't turn into a full back personally. The potential is clearly there to be a great central defender and I hope that's where he will be in a few years.
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I think he could potentially do it in several positions. I just hope he picks one, for his sake. As useful as a utility player can be, not everyone is suited to not specialising.
 
moses said:
I think he could potentially do it in several positions. I just hope he picks one, for his sake. As useful as a utility player can be, not everyone is suited to not specialising.
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Possibly, but I still think his attributes are best suited to central defense, ut hey, he's 20 years old, feck knows. I agree that he shouldn't be used everywhere though, I hope that Fergie decides where he will be best sooner rather than later, and keep him there.
 
moses said:
Rafael was taken off against Reading because he was shit, and was booked and has a history of making stupid decisions. He had a shit day. That's allowed be remembered. Some of ye are like the fecking Stasi, rewriting history.

Rafael has looked better at the back this year, and will again next year. I love him as a player but he's not finished developing and if Jones develops quicker he'll start more games there. It's not rocket science, heresy or comedy to suggest that.

Precious gimps.
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Certainly not. I've yet to see why we should even consider displacing Rafael and putting Jones there instead. He hasn't been tested defensively in any of the games he's played at RB this season. Albeit, he's done well. Unless Jones shows otherwise which I highly doubt, Rafa's got that spot knocked down.

By the way, we rewrite history all the time on here.
 
Plato said:
Certainly not. I've yet to see why we should even consider displacing Rafael and putting Jones there instead. He hasn't been tested defensively in any of the games he's played at RB this season. Albeit, he's done well. Unless Jones shows otherwise which I highly doubt, Rafa's got that spot knocked down.
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It was a hypothetical, that's the why. There were 'ifs' involved. It was about the future and factoring in development. And possibly style, people look for different tyes of player. I personally would prefer the type of player Rafael is.

Plato said:
By the way, we rewrite history all the time on here.
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Good man, but it's still retarded and not good for 'factual' discussions and a pretty shit basis laugh at someone who hasn't altered the facts.
 
Plechazunga said:
Yeah I think Rafael's still pretty ropey defensively. He's committed as feck and a good tackler, and he's definitely giving away less free kicks than before. But he still gets skinned too often and is caught out of position too often.

That said, modern full-backs can't really defend in general, at least the ones who get forward.
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We finally disagree on something!! Not sure what you mean by skinned. Any fullback is going to get skinned at least one if they're in a one-on-one situation. If you have a winger coming at you and you're isolated, it's simply a balance of probabilities, no matter how good of a defender you are.

I don't think it happens too often. It would be picked up a lot if that was the case. I have re watched about 80% of our matches this season and only in 10% of those where Rafael played did I feel his positioning was off or he was repeatedly getting skinned. Don't think you're giving the lad enough credit. Getting skinned often is akin to being a defensive liability. Not sure many would say Rafael is that.
 
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