Aye. No qualms there. Let me know when you're ready to deliver the Caf's 10 commandments.
If I could make a suggestion, "thou shalt not rewrite history"
Phil Jones
- Thread starter Baby Faced Assassin
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran are here to talk about a frustrating 2 points dropped at Crystal Palace. They then discuss the regeneration of Old Trafford. Finally, Nik is joined by special guest Michael Statham from the Football Oranje podcast - who gives us a more in depth look at our EL opposition FC Twente, and then runs through the (many) Dutch connections currently at United.
Aye. No qualms there. Let me know when you're ready to deliver the Caf's 10 commandments.
If I could make a suggestion, "thou shalt not rewrite history"
He's fecking 22. How could he not have room for improvement? How many 22 year olds stagnate?!?
No comments for Tom this weekend cina?
I agree on Jones though. How he performed at the Euros U21 showed me he's capable of being a CB. Let's not forget how he performed against us in the league either. Main reason why Fergie bought him.
So you do need every detail explained to you. That's tiresome.
I didn't know I was the Caf.....
Maybe not, but you are symptomatic of the new type of 'expert' we are attracting.
Rafael's defending has been fantastic this season. There's been a real improvement as far as aerial ability goes as well. He definitely does not need to improve - as far as I'm concerned, he is currently playing somewhere around the level of Gary Neville at his best (not really that outrageous a statement given he's probably been our best player this year) - although any adjustments are always welcome.
Jones has a hell of a job on his hands displacing him for that spot, though to be fair that was one hell of a performance the other day. If he starts putting in more of them then the difference between the two will be marginal.
Jones has a hell of a job on his hands displacing him for that spot, though to be fair that was one hell of a performance the other day. If he starts putting in more of them then the difference between the two will be marginal.
He was hooked because he got booked and was being raped down that side constantly.
It's been much much better...but to say he definately does not need to improve and he is somewhere near Nev at his best...I just can't agree with.
Fair enough. I accept that it probably sounds like an exaggeration, but like I say I think Rafael has been our best player this season. This in a season whereby we've had Van Persie in rich form. Neville's best season for me was 2005/06, whereby he was consistently very good in each game. That was what made him world class as opposed to any extraordinary levels he reached as an individual. Rafael is doing the same, although to really cement himself as a similarly good player he will have to do this for a fair few years.
For now, I think it's reasonable to say he's playing at a similar level. The best/most consistent player for a team that is top of the Premiership.
For now, I think it's reasonable to say he's playing at a similar level. The best/most consistent player for a team that is top of the Premiership.
I think he's been super too, our non goalscoring player of the year. At times he has driven the team from full back, not quite as well IMO as Evra did a few years back for the first half of a season; but he can and will get better I think, and maybe not even through coaching as much as muscle memory and all round experience.
Rafael is for me the best 'type' of full back, I was never one for the CB as full back, but Jones is one of them I'd be comfortable with there if that's where he made his home, but personally the glimpses of Smalling recently has reignited my excitement at a Jones/Smalling CB combo.
- SAF himself said he took him off because we needed height
- anyone with a brain saw we needed height
- Smalling is our best aerial defender (alongside a fit Vidic)
Despite his poor start, Rafael wasn't the problem that day, defending set-plays was.
So I'll steal a line from moses, who really has reached new heights of "pot meet kettle" today... let's not re-write history.
Rafael didn't have a great start to the game and had a couple of poor moments, "being raped down that side constantly" is ridiculous hyperbole though.
This is why I don't want SAF to go. I just feel like whoever comes in, is going to change the way our youngsters develop and feck up their progression. Slightly illogical but when it comes to the development of youth, there's no one better that I've seen.
What's your problem now? I aksed you to be less of a sneering twat, do you have an issue with that, because if you do let's sort it by PM. This thread is not all about you, nor is any other thread; as much as you'd like to think what you say carries more weight than anyone else. So drop it or PM me. Or if you think I am being unfair, PM someone else.
I don't doubt that we had a problem defending set pieces. But 'anyone with a brain' could see he was having problems and was already booked. He has it in him to lunge into challenges and Fergie knew that, as well as some height in the box, he was at risk of being sent.
On a side note SAF says alot of things...they aren't all true now are they?
I'm not rewriting history...I'm just not prepared to make excuses for him. I think he's a fine player in the making personally, as is Jones. I think Rafael will continue to improve, as I think Jones will. More and more potential and I think it's exciting. I don't think folk should give raf stick for one bad performance...he has probably been one of our best players behind Robin.
If everyone had the time, watching the match over wouldn't hurt. For me, whenever I do, my opinions change than when I first watched. However, if you keep up a steady pattern, you'll be able to do analyze the match accurately just by watching it once. I can't do this because I'm a bag of nerves almost every time we go into a big game.
Agreed. He had a yellow as well which might have been a factor.
That reading game is really fecking annoying because it's constantly mentioned when commentators talk about Rafael. It's like they just read that he was subbed off after 30 minutes but didn't watch the game so have no idea of the context.
Aye, we're so lucky to have him.
It would be fantastic if he ended up at Evra's level, although we'll have to wait and see on that front. Evra's still class now, but I honestly think that had Evra's productivity been better from wide positions at his best (2009), he would be classed as one of the all time great full backs.
Big statement again, but I don't think that one's unreasonable either.
feck what they think though. We know the worth of our lad, we watch him every week. I watched the game and thought he had a bit of a mare and got booked. He was one challenge away from going. We also needed some height...Smalling was the man. It wasn't as simple as I first made it, but let's face it, height in the box was nowhere near the only factor.
It matters not. The boy is quality and will continue to get better.
I'm pretty sure that's exactly what happened. We shouldn't assume these guys watch as much football as you'd think. How else would they form such silly opinions?
It probably wasn't the only factor, the booking maybe played a part too. In 26 years I have never seen SAF pull anyone after 30 for having a mare just 30 mins into the game and I've seen players start a game much worse than Rafael did. More is being made of a couple of poor moments now just because of the substitution.
The main reason that day was getting height and well, Smalling onto the pitch asap!
Ayee I won't argue with that, they usually talk shite so it's no change there. Rafael's had a ridiculously good start to the season though and instead of rightfully recieving some plaudits, the thing that's been mentioned most is him getting subbed off, it's absolute bollocks.
The yellow was a factor but more than anything it was height IMO, we couldn't deal with corners and after the first one went in we didn't get our shit together and had the exact same problem - something needed to change. You could probably look at the Jones sub as another indication thats the way Fergie saw it, with Clev on the bench he would have been the more obvious choice.
We conceeded three goals from Reading that day in first half, two were from set pieces, and other one was from cross. Rafael wasn't at fault for any of them except that he could be partly blamed for first, but that would be harsh. Both corners came from left side.
Our every defender had a mare that day, and blaming just rafael is ridiculous. Ferdinand, Evans and Lindegaard were just observers for their every goal. He was subbed off because he was already on yellow, and probably bigger reason he was off is that we needed someone who is dominant in air, because Evans and Ferdinand weren't able to win single header for whole first half. Someone had to be substituted.
Our every defender had a mare that day, and blaming just rafael is ridiculous. Ferdinand, Evans and Lindegaard were just observers for their every goal. He was subbed off because he was already on yellow, and probably bigger reason he was off is that we needed someone who is dominant in air, because Evans and Ferdinand weren't able to win single header for whole first half. Someone had to be substituted.
I certainly wouldn't get too worried about what the plebs and pundits reckon. Rafael gets the credit from those who watch him. I think the lad has come on something very special over the last season or so. Hope it will continue to be the case.
Raf is 22 now? If Fabio can kick on in a similar manner then we have great prospects (not sure how old he is though, anyone?)
Yes, I am joking
When the substitution was made I felt that the following factors all played a part:
We were struggling to defend in the air.
Rafael had had a talking to and a card - one mis-timed tackle could be disastrous.
Because of the overall problems throughout the defence, we were coming under pressure as a team - this means each and every member of the team will be under greater pressure defensively and therefore struggle more to survive without giving away fouls. The sub addresses this in two ways - it improves our aerial capability, thus reducing pressure - plus it reduces the problem presented by a foul drawing another card.
At full-time Fergie mentioned the only factor you would expect him to air in public: 'height'.
Nothing I have seen since has led me to change my opinion tbh.
We were struggling to defend in the air.
Rafael had had a talking to and a card - one mis-timed tackle could be disastrous.
Because of the overall problems throughout the defence, we were coming under pressure as a team - this means each and every member of the team will be under greater pressure defensively and therefore struggle more to survive without giving away fouls. The sub addresses this in two ways - it improves our aerial capability, thus reducing pressure - plus it reduces the problem presented by a foul drawing another card.
At full-time Fergie mentioned the only factor you would expect him to air in public: 'height'.
Nothing I have seen since has led me to change my opinion tbh.
Bang on the money for me Feedingseagulls, surely no-one can argue that.
He was having a stinker though, the fact that our other defenders were playing poorly doesn't change that.
Sometimes you just have bad days, that was one of his only ones this season, move on.
Sometimes you just have bad days, that was one of his only ones this season, move on.
Not to mention one of the fouls was a blatant dive by the Reading player.
He wasn't the worst defender on the pitch. But he was also playing poorly, was on a yellow and looked like he had lost his head. If it was solely down to who was playing the worst of the back four then he was unfairly treated, but you also have to take into account the fact that we wanted more height and could easily have ended up with 10 men had he stayed on.
EDIT: I've basically copied FS's post.
EDIT: I've basically copied FS's post.
Well worth mentioning - I thought the same.
Except, personally, I wouldn't go along with the 'lost his head' - he WAS annoyed about getting pinged for the dive though.
I'm guessing either you were being ironic when you chose your user name or you have a reputation for being an arse and someone was being ironic when they chose it for you.
We haven't been discussing Rio, I haven't given an opinion on him any more than I have De Gea. Barring a couple of performances Rio has been below par this season, so yes there is room for improvement. I'm not judging Rafael on a single 30min performance either. I've been watching him for a couple of years like everyone else. He is improving. He's still defensively suspect at times, and has significant room for improvement. This is also true of Jones and, as I have stated previously, I think Rafael is the better RB at this time. It is still not unreasonable to suggest that Rafael has some way to go before he has the RB position nailed on as his own. As it happens he's one of my favourite United players, he epitomises the passion of the club. I'm not blind to his failings though. If you can't discuss it without lolling then there's little hope for discussion.
Don't be deliberately obtuse. I have been discussing this with someone who seems unable to accept that he needs to improve. No one has suggested that he can't or won't, least of all me.
But as I've said many times, 30 mins is nothing to form an opinion of a performance, he only had a couple of poor moments in those 30 that usually would've been forgotten about 60 minutes later. How many times have Rooney, Nani etc. had a shocker of a 30 minutes and ended the game as MOTM.
Disagree. One of the main areas of progression this season has to see him holding back and not committing himself every time the ball comes near him. In the Reading game he looked really shaken and had fallen back into the trap. Maybe he would have calmed down and played himself back into the game, though.
Don't be silly, Nani never ends a game as MotM on here
Anyway, it was just to point out that it wasn't solely because of height and the yellow card. His poor performance made the decision even easier for Fergie.
It was chosen for me because I always turn out to be correct, probably due to me being the best footballer on the cafe
, the name Guybrush Threepwood, despite it's brilliance was no longer good enough for me.Back on topic though, I still serious hope that Jones can improve he's central defensive work a thousand fold because I don't think he'll ever be as good as an Evra or a Rafael at full back. He's a superb player that doesn't really have a position and currently offers most and is less of a liability at full-back.
I just looked back and I didn't see any of that. Maybe you mean the scope of improvement.
Yeah I don't think anyone said he doesn't need to improve. My own words on the matter were, "99% of footballers in the World have room for improvement".
In fact you didn't comment at all, you lolled at a post suggesting his defending needed to improve.
No.
These were your 'words', that beacon had issue with.
