You could argue Ferguson stunted his development - by playing him in midfield / RB rather than letting him develop solely as a CB.
4
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 24
- Clean sheets
- 7
- Goals
- 0
- Assists
- 1
- Yellow cards
- 3
That wouldn't have helped, but Jones was 19 when somebody made the Duncan Edwards comparison and it was just down right stupid.
Of course you need more to analyse - you think LvG will show the team a 7 second video to show them where the mistakes that lead to this goal came from? Obviously not - the problems start far earlier.
Berahinho comes from next to Rojo and only moves in the space Jones leaves AFTER Jones has pushed on - at no point does Jones leave him.
Rojo has to follow the man or tell his CB partner to pick him up - he does neither. TBF to Rojo he may assume he is offside and then that is down to Rafael for not being in line.
But that is the general problem in the defence at the moment, no one is taking responsibility to organise and communicate.
all shown clearly here around 10:12
http://www.lastminutegoals.org/west-brom-vs-manchester-united-premier-league-highlights/
I honestly think some people don't bother watching the things they comment on
Jones needlessly left a gaping hole for Berahinho to run into. Rojo should have followed him, but the fact that our defensive shape was a shambles at that point was down to Jones. It was a crazy decision to go charging after the ball like that, and I say that as a fan of Jones.
Yeah, Jones blatantly dropped a bollock for that goal. Although Rafael and Rojo might have defended it better too.
Really don't get all the wailing and gnashing of teeth about the overall performance of him and Rojo though. We defended much better than we have in most games this season. West Brom only created two decent chances in 90 minutes. You'd usually take that as a decent defensive performance. The horrific defending for their second goal is distorting opinions IMO.
Really don't get all the wailing and gnashing of teeth about the overall performance of him and Rojo though. We defended much better than we have in most games this season. West Brom only created two decent chances in 90 minutes. You'd usually take that as a decent defensive performance. The horrific defending for their second goal is distorting opinions IMO.
Where was he going for the Berahinho goal? He seems to have lost his confidence, looks lost on the pitch at times and genuinely seems nervous with the ball at his feet.
He needs a beast of a game. Here's hoping he can keep Costa quiet on the weekend. That's what he needs, a dominant performance to build on.
He needs a beast of a game. Here's hoping he can keep Costa quiet on the weekend. That's what he needs, a dominant performance to build on.
I know he was at fault for the second goal but he was our best centre defender before his injury and this was his first game with Rojo and I am sure they will form a great partnership. I would like to be in the camp that believes he will be an amazing player for us.
I am not sure if I am the only one but my gut tells me his best position should be next to Blind as an enforcer just ahead of the defence. I personally feel he has played his best games for us in that position. Obviously not comparing him to Keane but Jones is one of those players who can take the game by the scruff and do the dirty work and drive the other players forward. I just feel he can do this job better in a slightly more advanced position. He is a natural born leader/enforcer.
I like to think Jones will still come good because SAF was a notoriously good spotter of young British talent, although when he came out with 'he could be our best player ever' after a half decent goal in a half decent performance against a half decent team, I did start to wonder if the man had completely lost the plot and was just fascinated with the many layered facets of Jones' face. I mean, Jesus Christ, best ever? Right now he doesn't even look like he can see a football, let alone produce great things with one.
Ferguson has a lot to answer for. He decimated the potential of Smalling and Jones when they were at their most promising in favour of playing crocked geriatrics every two games. Letting it happen to the midfield with Giggs, Scholes and Pogba was a mistake, allowing the very same to happen to the defence was plain pathetic. Watching Jones last night irritates me all the more for having watching how good he was in his first season. We stifled his development during the most important developmental phase. Rotation may have set us back years.
I think you are right, but not only for the reasons you mention, but because he's a liability in defence. Last night highlighted that - his decision making and positioning are suspect. I think he could do a more effective job in the midfield and less damage to the team during a game and himself - less last ditch charging in type tackles. Thing is, I don't think there is room for him AND Blind in VGs system.
Ye I have already said that Jones is rash there, was just arguing with the opinion that the goal is completely his fault as there are mistakes from Rojo and also maybe Rafael as well.
Anyway Jones was our best defender this season before getting injured - this was his first game back and he has never played with Rojo before, hopefully if they can get a run of games then we will see a better understanding.
Of course you need more to analyse - you think LvG will show the team a 7 second video to show them where the mistakes that lead to this goal came from? Obviously not - the problems start far earlier.
Berahinho comes from next to Rojo and only moves in the space Jones leaves AFTER Jones has pushed on - at no point does Jones leave him.
Rojo has to follow the man or tell his CB partner to pick him up - he does neither. TBF to Rojo he may assume he is offside and then that is down to Rafael for not being in line.
But that is the general problem in the defence at the moment, no one is taking responsibility to organise and communicate.
all shown clearly here around 10:12
http://www.lastminutegoals.org/west-brom-vs-manchester-united-premier-league-highlights/
I honestly think some people don't bother watching the things they comment on
Did you honestly even watch the video? Berahino is casually jogging onto Jones' side of the pitch as he charges out and then simply rotates a little bit once he realises Jones is in no-mans land. How on earth do you expect Rojo to cover that? Even if for some reason he blindly charges over to the right side of the pitch a second before Jones goes awol the exact same thing happens on his side with Sessegnon(?) running through.
Simply in utter disbelief you would try and pin it on Rojo when it's so clearly Jones making an absolute clusterfeck charging out and leaving a gap even RvP would have scored in. Very few goals are ever one persons fault alone, but Jones has to take the majority flak for this one. You can't unpredictably charge out of the backline like that, sure Rafael should have been pushed higher up but the damage had already been done by Jones.
I was always a fan of Jones in midfield but I doubt we will see much of him there now as we are severely lacking in CBs
You do realise he was constantly played in different positions throughout his first season at the club?
You obviously havent read a word Ive written and I cant be arsed to explain it to you again.
Didn't have to push up for their second goal, was like one of those horrible FIFA glitches. We have serious communication/immaturity problem among our defence, and this will cost us time and time again this season until we sort it out. We should have 24 points on the board but do not due to our simple defensive errors across the whole back four. There is not one person we can count on.
Well, people are certainly very precious over certain players in this team.
At the moment the opposition are delighted to see him on the team sheet. That says it all.
At the moment the opposition are delighted to see him on the team sheet. That says it all.
I'd put the majority of the blame on Rafael for the second goal.
Jones was marking Sessegnon all match and you actually want your CB to close down his man in midfield every so often. Obviously, you also want them to win the ball, so there was an obvious feck up from Jones there. But WBA never should have scored from that position. It was 1 against 3 - Rafael should have been in line with his teammates, and Rojo should have been covering much better than he did.
You expect defenders to apply pressure in midfield and occasionally get caught out of position. It happens in every game. Although it was a particularly bad one from Jones, the rest of his defence did even worse on the basics of defensive shape.
Jones was marking Sessegnon all match and you actually want your CB to close down his man in midfield every so often. Obviously, you also want them to win the ball, so there was an obvious feck up from Jones there. But WBA never should have scored from that position. It was 1 against 3 - Rafael should have been in line with his teammates, and Rojo should have been covering much better than he did.
You expect defenders to apply pressure in midfield and occasionally get caught out of position. It happens in every game. Although it was a particularly bad one from Jones, the rest of his defence did even worse on the basics of defensive shape.
I'd rather just use him as a utility man.
Yep, unsettled back 4, with Jones' first game back in, what, month? Wasn't as bad an outing as most are making out - obviously not getting the 3 points doesn't help when we're reviewing the performance.
Some of our attackers should be getting way more stick - RvP, Mata....Herrera at least has an excuse. Januzaj hasn't had much minutes either.
Agreed with this. I'm not particularly a fan of Jones either - I actually Smalling - but aside from the error for the second goal and a few other moments, he was alright and not as suspect as Rojo who looked uncomfortable dealing with high balls and into Berahino's feet. Plus, he could have done better for the second goal too.
My main gripe with Jones' performance was how he dawdled on the ball for too long and constantly gave the ball away rather than his actual defensive work over the course of the ninety minutes. He wasn't exceptional, but did some good things also and was better aerially than he usually is. However, I still agree with others who have noted his positioning and reading of the game which is sorely lacking, particularly the former, and even if he showcases that on just the one occasion in a match he is punished for it.
Yes, absolutely 100%. If the little idiot had stepped up, like you would expect from a senior defender, then the WBA forward would have been played offside. No goal.
He cant just randomly step up. when Jones decided to push up, he should have let the whole defence know and scream at them to push up with him.
There are four errors for me in that goal and I will number them in order of how bad they were.
1. Jones decides to push up which catches everyone off guard. There was only ONE dangerous pass that could have been played in that situation and Jones did nothing but help that situation become even more dangerous. If he holds his position the guy on the ball has to execute a super pass to get it to Berahino.
2. Rafael could have seen Jones push up and pushed up with him.
3. Rojo could have realised that Berahino is free and told Jones to hold his position.
4.De Gea could have rushed out a bit more instead of staying back and allowing Berahino a bit more time to pick his spot.
I might need to watch it again, but from memory I think the others were in line, it was just Rafael that didn't pay attention?
Jones was in line with him, Jones pushes up alone and leaves Rafa behind.
What about Shaw?
Rafael didnt need to push up with Jones, he just needed to be in line with Rojo and Berahinho would be offiside - but I do agree that it is a collective feck up with blame due to all 3 of them
Shaw was behind Jones and Rojo, not sure how in line he was with Rafa though.
Fair enough. I don't think think I'll rewatch that shower of shite to analyze it though
Jones looked knackered after an hour, should have been subbed.
But I still think Rafael should have been checking his line.
But I still think Rafael should have been checking his line.
Yeah, lest people forget Jones looked really good for us up until his injury, albeit mostly in a back 3
What's holding him back more then anything is the constant injuries tbf. He gets a run in the side and starts showing his undoubted talent, only to get a stupid injury to put him out for a couple of months again....rinse repeat. I had high hopes for both Jones and Smalling (I really thought he was going to become Rio MkII).
That hopes starting to fade by the injury though.
That 2nd goal was solely down to Jones. There is no way the other defenders could cover him when he jumped in for that ball. When you are playing such a high line, the central defenders simply cannot allow that much space to an attacking player. If they get the ball right, there is no way to provide cover through the middle.
Shaw and Rojo were more or less in line, with Rafael 2 or 3 yards too deep. Jones started off in line with Rojo/Shaw, then pushed up to try and make a tackle.
I know this because I spent a few minutes earlier on today freezeframing a clip on youtube, because of a discussion in a different thread.
What were his passing stats like? He seemed sloppy to me. I just feel nervy with him in the backline, I miss the calm authority of Rio and presence of Vidic.
Not bad but not great either. Him and Rojo were both in the low 80s, %wise. You'd usually expect a central defender to be 90%+, especially in a game where spent so much time passing it round the back.
Thought he carried the ball forward very well though. Something we haven't really seen enough of this season.
EDIT: Just looking at those stats, Rojo won 6/6 tackles while Phil won 0/0! (5 interceptions vs 3)
You do realise he was constantly played in different positions throughout his first season at the club?
He was, but it should have ended there. His performances were generally impressive and then took a nosedive the more we continued to use him like a utility man. Had Smalling and Jones played more games at centre half following on from their first seasons then they'd be better players. Injury has played its part too, in Ferguson's defence.
I'm surprised that Rojo's percentage was so low as his passing seemed good to me, just shows how you miss things in the heat of the game. Just noticed the edit, Rojo did very well in his one on one's, it's his biggest strength, it is balls over his head he has to concentrate on as he's fine with actual aerial duels.
I like a CB to bring the ball out but I worry a bit when Jones does it because his positioning to get back into shape is not always good, plus with all of our players pushing on so high up I think we'd be better with him and Rojo just sitting in behind Blind for most games until LvG gets a proper CM partner for Blind who'll help with the covering when Jones brings the ball out.
That's fair enough. I'd say the situation was mostly of Jones' making, with Rafael possibly being culpable for playing them onside. Both Rafael and Rojo could have reacted better. I agree on the second paragraph. I'm hopeful they can form a decent partnership.
Maybe so, but given his 'senior' position, one would think he should be more aware that his main job is to be the last line of defense, not haring off to midfield. Sure, you can say communication & the cohesiveness of the back four still hasn't developed, but Jones just doesn't seem to know or understand what is expected of him. Maybe it's the shuffling around to midfield & defense plus an unsettled formation, but he just does not seem to be positionally aware or fully grasp what is needed from him in certain positions/formations. He could've done what he did on the 2nd goal with a back 3, but he sure didn't marshal the back 4 in that particular situation. He's more an all-action box-to-box midfielder for me than a full-time center back, but he doesn't have enough of the skills & awareness at this time to play in midfield all the time. He'd fit the Fletcher-sized hole that is used when we need a bit more defensive bite.
Honestly, I can't really rate any of our current cb's. They each have their positives, but too many holes & inconsistencies to rely on them when we get back to a full-time schedule with Champions League & other cup commitments. I'm sure no one back there has LVG's full backing yet.