Sorry mate, you are right.
Pep's Barcelona vs Zidane's Real Madrid
- Thread starter sullydnl
- Start date
Sorry mate, you are right.
That Barca team at its peak was the best footballing side I ever watched, even though the triangles of passing got boring.
I think squad wise Real are having the last laugh of the 2010s super team era. Bayern have lost Lahm, Schweinsteiger and Ribery/Robben have aged. Barca lost Alves, Xavi and Iniesta. Players that made them great and can't be replaced, while Real are still more or less unharmed.
Barcelona 09-11 are the only team in modern history to win 3 domestic league titles in a row while winning 2 CL titles in the same period. That's absolutely unique too. (United were close to it but played Barca...)
Last time Madrid won 3 consecutive La Liga titles was in 1990. They weren't great in Europe in that time. Last time Madrid won 2 La Liga titles on the bounce was in 2008. They weren't great in Europe at the time.
To win consecutive La Liga titles while winning CL titles proves extremely difficult.
The globalisation of football has made the domestic leagues look way less significant. Which isn't quite just because the league is won over 38 games and the CL over 7 games.
Last time Madrid won 3 consecutive La Liga titles was in 1990. They weren't great in Europe in that time. Last time Madrid won 2 La Liga titles on the bounce was in 2008. They weren't great in Europe at the time.
To win consecutive La Liga titles while winning CL titles proves extremely difficult.
The globalisation of football has made the domestic leagues look way less significant. Which isn't quite just because the league is won over 38 games and the CL over 7 games.
Sarcasm.
It's like a really unoriginal point too. "4 CLs... End of conversation." Wouldn't be out of place in a drunk bar argument.
Pep has brainwashed all of you, It's sad to see.
If SaF had won three UCL in a row with this exact style of play nobody would contest It's superiority over the rest of the Football world.
But ever since Pep's Barca if you're not winning by having 70% possession every single game then you are lucky,don't deserve it or have no identity.
Pep's Barca wasn't invincible, Pep's Barca lost a terrible Chelsea side and a good Inter team that was still nowhere near as good as the sides Madrid has been knocking out for fun the past few years.
Pep's Barca had more domestic success in a much easier Liga Era, far before La Liga had become the unstoppable force it is in European competition, Sevilla,Villareal,Atletico Madrid, these clubs weren't as threatening as they are today when Pep was in charge.
I'd also add that even Real Madrid in 08/09 was a mediocre team, 09/10 was a rebuilding year so Pep really had no competition compared to Zidane who faces an established,oiled machine that has been winning for years before he took charge.
If SaF had won three UCL in a row with this exact style of play nobody would contest It's superiority over the rest of the Football world.
But ever since Pep's Barca if you're not winning by having 70% possession every single game then you are lucky,don't deserve it or have no identity.
Pep's Barca wasn't invincible, Pep's Barca lost a terrible Chelsea side and a good Inter team that was still nowhere near as good as the sides Madrid has been knocking out for fun the past few years.
Pep's Barca had more domestic success in a much easier Liga Era, far before La Liga had become the unstoppable force it is in European competition, Sevilla,Villareal,Atletico Madrid, these clubs weren't as threatening as they are today when Pep was in charge.
I'd also add that even Real Madrid in 08/09 was a mediocre team, 09/10 was a rebuilding year so Pep really had no competition compared to Zidane who faces an established,oiled machine that has been winning for years before he took charge.
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Well considering the present Barca side beats Madrid regularly the answer is fairly simple.
Anyone who actually watches the games will know that this is a ridiculous comparison. Barca's team were just simply better at football. Compare their defining performances: Barcelona outclassed us in the final, smashed six goals past Madrid, etc.. I struggle to see any performance by this Madrid team that matches that.
The difficulty with retaining in the CL is that, beyond quality, you need so many other things to go your way (referee decisions, keeper errors, opposition injuries, your own injuries). Barcelona 09-11, United 99, Bayern Munich earlier this decade - all of these teams were definitely good enough to win multiple CLs, they just lacked the luck that this Real Madrid team have in abundance in this tournament.
The difficulty with retaining in the CL is that, beyond quality, you need so many other things to go your way (referee decisions, keeper errors, opposition injuries, your own injuries). Barcelona 09-11, United 99, Bayern Munich earlier this decade - all of these teams were definitely good enough to win multiple CLs, they just lacked the luck that this Real Madrid team have in abundance in this tournament.
Amaizing stat:
Barca 09-11 are the only team in history to win 3 consecutive domestic titles and 2 European Cups/CL titles in the same period.
Even Madrid 55-60, Benfica 60-65 and Ajax 70-73 failed to do it even when the European cup was easier to win and they were much better than the other domestic teams.
So, even in terms of trophies, Barca 09-11 have done something more difficult because no team in history has done it, not simply no team in modern history.
Barca 09-11 are the only team in history to win 3 consecutive domestic titles and 2 European Cups/CL titles in the same period.
Even Madrid 55-60, Benfica 60-65 and Ajax 70-73 failed to do it even when the European cup was easier to win and they were much better than the other domestic teams.
So, even in terms of trophies, Barca 09-11 have done something more difficult because no team in history has done it, not simply no team in modern history.
Gotta love succinct answers like this.
Peps Barcelona all day.
But I think looking back now, Barca underperformed in terms of CL wins relative to their quality and Real have perhaps over performed, and benefitted from lots of teams being in transition or just failing to get their sh!t together.
But I think looking back now, Barca underperformed in terms of CL wins relative to their quality and Real have perhaps over performed, and benefitted from lots of teams being in transition or just failing to get their sh!t together.
Is it fair to say that Barca are better in the league while Madrid are better in the CL?
I think if they were in the same time period, Barca would win La Liga over and over, while Madrid would win the CL over and over.
I think if they were in the same time period, Barca would win La Liga over and over, while Madrid would win the CL over and over.
Pep's Barca were playing in a much weaker Liga Era.
Just look how dominant La Liga has been in Europe in the past few years, beyond Barca/Madrid the level of others teams is much higher nowadays than from 08/09 to 11/12
In Ajax's 4 year Cycle, we won 3 league titles, 3 European Cups and 3 KNVB bekers and we won a double in 73 and a treble in the 72 season.
This is whilst we were challenged by Happel's legendary Feyenoord side who actually won the European cup first in the 69/70 season and were the first team to use the 433 at the top level. They also won the UEFA Cup in 1974.
Funny how Madrid isn't able to translate this apparent superiority into domestic league, where Barcelona side that can't get further than 1/4 final in Europe is consistently better. And this Barcelona side is obviously weaker than the one from Guardiola's time.
So, it's either league or cup results that are not telling the true story. It used to be a common wisdom that cups are unpredictable and comparatively very much down to luck, while league is the bread and butter of a football team. And while I will always argue that the overall quality of football is a bit higher in Spain than in England (mainly due to Madrid and Barca), there's no way that difference is as big as European results would suggest.
I just wanted to show how difficult is to dominate both domestically and in Europe at the same time. Even the greatest teams in Europe struggled to win the domestic league 3 times in a row. Benfica were the first to win 3 consecutive domestic titles and the European cup in the early 60's. Then Liverpool managed it in the early 80's and then United 99-01 and United 07-09. But Barca were the first to win the European cup/CL twice while winning 3 consecutive domestic titles. Think they were also the first in history to win 14 trophies over 4 years.
I’ve always preferred Madrid over Barca but Pep’s side were much better than Zidane’s. Never seen a more dominant performance in a final than in 2011.
I’d also say that the 5-0 in Mourinho’s first Clasico was the greatest performance I’ve ever seen. Zidane’s Madrid are brilliant, a team full of serial winners, but I don’t think they’re capable of destroying top teams like Barcelona did. They were playing a different sport at times, it barely seemed fair.
I’d also say that the 5-0 in Mourinho’s first Clasico was the greatest performance I’ve ever seen. Zidane’s Madrid are brilliant, a team full of serial winners, but I don’t think they’re capable of destroying top teams like Barcelona did. They were playing a different sport at times, it barely seemed fair.
Just goes to show how good Mourinhos accomplishments with Inter were in beating that Barca side.
You can't argue with winning the CL three times in a row, you just can't. Zidane has definitely eclipsed THAT Barcelona team.
I understand that the CL achievement is remarkable, unprecedented and special but I've always valued league and domestic football too. So one league title in 5/3 years and 2 in 9 or whatever years does hurt them in this face off just as their superior CL records helps them.
You're right that their CL isn't obviously a one off. But it can be downplayed because they are a distant second best team in their land for nearly a decade now - league and cups both. Just like I'd naturally play down Pep's team arguing that they should have also been able to win back to back CLs given their level football.
Basically it's not an easy comparison as some are making out. But I do think Barcelona in general were a more dominant side. They toyed with top teams at times. They made Madrid and United look several notches below. As a United fan, it was demeaning to watch. I'm sure it was the case for Madrid and other teams too. It's the difference between domination/humiliation and victory/defeat.
Pep’s Barca dominated teams in a way I’ve never seen before. Zidane’s Madrid actually gets dominated themselves from time to time. With lady luck usually giving them the win anyway. Compare the semi-final Barca lost vs Chelsea to Madrid vs Bayern in this years CL. Barca’s performance was miles better than Madrid, still they went out and Madrid didn’t.
The exact same thing applies to La Liga over the past few years though (disregarding this off year), last year Madrid won it, the year before lost by 1 point (while Benitez was 11 points behind), the years before that lost by 2 and 3 point respectively as well, so as you and many other see (but never mention) every La Liga title in the previous 4 years has been down to one dodgy call, one stroke of bad luck, one more injury etc. etc., it's not like City winning it by a billion points, the margins are as low as some close CL matches, if not lower.
You said the landscape for CL could've been different, one can easily say that by the same logic Madrid could've easily ended up with 4 of the last 5 league titles as all this could've changed with one decision, luck etc.
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That's objectively wrong though, the more matches, the more variables (possible wrong calls etc.) at hand, and the more chances for deviating from the right answer, it'd only work if the gap is big, not 1 or 2 points, your line of thinking is wrong, as you think it's like in scientific experiments where if you do a test 100 times, as opposed to 10 times, you'd get better results, but that's only the case for your average result (like the points of the midtable teams would be closer to reality), meanwhile the highest high would be higher and with more margin for error than it should, like in 10 tests the margin is +-X but in 100 tests it's +-10X... and when to results are neck and neck it's not reliable at all since that margin of error is orders of magnitude than the point difference.
And your example in Liverpool couldn't have been more irrelevant to the matter since the margins that they have had in the league has been too much, way more than the margin of error, hence they're not in the discussion, while their small successes in Europe during that time and always been within the margin of error. Now if they had won the thing in successive years, the data would've been more reliable.
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It's a simple mathematical point though: luck plays a bigger role over 7 games than over 38 games. The consistency you need over 38 games is of a different order than the one over 7 games.
Edit: this is why Liverpool have been able to win the CL and to reach 3 CL finals in the last 13 years (as many as United) but unable to win the PL even once (vs 5 PL titles for United). Because it's less probable to be lucky over 38 games.
The CL runs of United and Liverpool seem about equal since 2005 but United are far better in the league. Why? Luck plays a bigger role in the CL.
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That's the whole point. The league table over the last few seasons tells us that Barca and Madrid are there or thereabouts, with Barca a bit better (or maybe a bit luckier in that competition). I'd say that's far more realistic picture.
Let's be honest Pep's Barca would be slaughtered if they finished 17 points behind Real Madrid and third in the league, off season is putting it lightly. Furthermore he finished 3 points ahead of Barcelona last season so he did not dominate the league title points wise. Your half a season from when he took over and recovered well to finish 1 point behind Barcelona I give him credit for. At the same token finishing a ludicrous 17 points behind undoes a lot of the league domination argument. What about his failings in the domestic Cup? Can't seem to challenge on all fronts making it easier to focus on one competition?
The point I am trying to make is, the 3 CL run is one of the greatest accomplishments in club football and Zidane deserves a lot of credit for that. But at the same token we cannot just ignore his domestic record which in comparison to his European exploits looks underwhelming, gotta be fair across the board.
The idea that UCL was down to luck and only the League can reflect the true level of a team literally started existing in the past few years because Barca fans and Madrid haters need to damage control what is currently going down in Europe these past few years.
No big club has more European Cups than League titles, much less CHampions Leagues.
It's not down to luck to win it three times in a row, It's a much harder competition to win than a league where you can mess up severals times and still pull through in the end.
Also the narrative of Barca's domestic success vs Zidane's Madrid is widely overblown, Zidane won La Liga last year and won more points than Barca in 15/16 from when he took charge.
No big club has more European Cups than League titles, much less CHampions Leagues.
It's not down to luck to win it three times in a row, It's a much harder competition to win than a league where you can mess up severals times and still pull through in the end.
Also the narrative of Barca's domestic success vs Zidane's Madrid is widely overblown, Zidane won La Liga last year and won more points than Barca in 15/16 from when he took charge.
That dominance has been present in La Liga for a while now even in Pep's side.
I would say that the only variable that has changed is the emergence of Simeone's Atletico. They started coming into their own around the end of Pep's tenure there. But that would only account for 6 points.
Barcelona in the past 3 years are a weaker version of Pep's side yet they've won the league twice. Almost went undefeated this season. No way La Liga is sifnificantlh stronger now than it was back then. Nice try though.
That is literally what they are doing. Pretending that the league and domestic cup just doesn't count.
But Nottingham Forest are a big club!
, nah, seriously, that's only logical, since you can compete every season for the league title, but before the UCL you had to actually win the league for a chance at winning the UCL.And your "much less Champions Leagues" it's actually the contrary, Real Madrid have won 7 UCL titles since 97-98, but just 6 league titles. For them it's easier to win the UCL than National leagues.
But Nottingham Forest are a big club!
And your "much less Champions Leagues" it's actually the contrary, Real Madrid have won 7 UCL titles since 97-98, but just 6 league titles. For them it's easier to win the UCL than National leagues.
Same with Liverpool. They won the CL in 2005 and could have won it in 2007 and 2018 but have won ZERO league titles since 1990.
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Interesting debate the one about leagues and CL importance. Puyol's view, and you will agree with me it's a quite relevant one, is this one:
https://twit ter.com/Carles5puyol/status/1000478549340557312
Enhorabuena madridistas. 4 Champions en 5 años con uno de los mejores Barça de la historia... tenemos que reflexionar en las prioridades.
which means...
Congrats to all madridistas. 4 Champions in 5 years against one of the best Barcelona teams ever... We have to think about what our priorities are.
https://twit ter.com/Carles5puyol/status/1000478549340557312
Enhorabuena madridistas. 4 Champions en 5 años con uno de los mejores Barça de la historia... tenemos que reflexionar en las prioridades.
which means...
Congrats to all madridistas. 4 Champions in 5 years against one of the best Barcelona teams ever... We have to think about what our priorities are.
Im not fond of these muddy grey areas (which are usually used as a way to peddle a narrative).
I'm looking at their achievements and one is clearly better in the league and the other is clearly better in the CL.
Not everyone is going to agree with him but there certainly are Barca fans that feel like their team has underachieved in Europe with the generation of players they have and the so called best player of all time.
He also said he believes Barcelona have a better team thus implying they should be capable of that as well, if not better.
Barca looked better and more dominant, so the eye test goes toward them. However, it is impossible to argue against 4 in 5, so my vote goes for Madrid.
Exactly, one of the worst Barca sides of the decade was able to get the best of Madrid more often than not. Pep’s Barca would run riot on this Madrid squad
Zidane’s Madrid also only have one La Liga in Spain, they can be the kings of Europe despite not even being the Kings of their own backyard more often than not.
Madrid also got extremely lucky with opposing team injuries, possibly the luckiest team in CL history with the amount of players who were injured or got injured when facing real.
Madrid also got extremely lucky with opposing team injuries, possibly the luckiest team in CL history with the amount of players who were injured or got injured when facing real.
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People forget something very important here. The current Madrid can't defeat the current barca.
If you mean head to head since Zidane's been in Madrid they've played Barcelona 7 times. 3 wins, 2 draws, 2 losses.
And this is against a Barca that is significantly weaker than Pep’s Barca