United > Ronaldo > footballAgree with the bolded.
A, my bad, you support Ronaldo not Real
Pep's Barcelona vs Zidane's Real Madrid
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Pep's Barca lads are in a class of their own
Then it's a toss up between this Real Madrid team and the United side of 2007-2009 for me. Very similar sides in terms of counter-attacking but I think we'd smash them, especially with a fit Hargreaves and Fletcher anchoring the midfield and offering protection to the back 4 who was superior in everyway to this Madrid side.
Van Der Sar over Navas all day everyday. No question.
Vidic and Rio was so much better then Ramos and Varene. Evra and Gary Neville/Wes Brown was also much better.
Rooney and Tevez harrying the Madrid defense forcing mistakes. Giggs serving them on a platter.
And a Ronaldo in his pomp, not the goal poacher he is at Madrid but the flying Portuguese winger who could turn on a six-pence and score Worldies from outside the box ala Porto.
Man-for-man we would be better all over the park. And the wildcard would be Fergie having Green Zidane's number tactics wise.
Basically, I think we are in a poor era atleast CL wise that is why Madrid are so overrated. The best teams can monopolise the best players and a lot of them are at Real Madrid. It was more evenly spread out back in the day and there's been a dearth of top drawer players since many have retired and the young players who should've stepped up to the mantle like Hazard haven't shown the consistency.
That Manchester United side of 2007-2009 was right up there.. it broke up too early otherwise it would have won so much more. As simple as that. We have a habit on Redcafe of downplaying our own teams and stars for foreigners but that United team was really the dogs bollox such a well-oiled machine from top to bottom feared throughout Europe dominating at home and abroad. Underrated on here.
Then it's a toss up between this Real Madrid team and the United side of 2007-2009 for me. Very similar sides in terms of counter-attacking but I think we'd smash them, especially with a fit Hargreaves and Fletcher anchoring the midfield and offering protection to the back 4 who was superior in everyway to this Madrid side.
Van Der Sar over Navas all day everyday. No question.
Vidic and Rio was so much better then Ramos and Varene. Evra and Gary Neville/Wes Brown was also much better.
Rooney and Tevez harrying the Madrid defense forcing mistakes. Giggs serving them on a platter.
And a Ronaldo in his pomp, not the goal poacher he is at Madrid but the flying Portuguese winger who could turn on a six-pence and score Worldies from outside the box ala Porto.
Man-for-man we would be better all over the park. And the wildcard would be Fergie having Green Zidane's number tactics wise.
Basically, I think we are in a poor era atleast CL wise that is why Madrid are so overrated. The best teams can monopolise the best players and a lot of them are at Real Madrid. It was more evenly spread out back in the day and there's been a dearth of top drawer players since many have retired and the young players who should've stepped up to the mantle like Hazard haven't shown the consistency.
That Manchester United side of 2007-2009 was right up there.. it broke up too early otherwise it would have won so much more. As simple as that. We have a habit on Redcafe of downplaying our own teams and stars for foreigners but that United team was really the dogs bollox such a well-oiled machine from top to bottom feared throughout Europe dominating at home and abroad. Underrated on here.
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Ah yes, you keep bringing up H2H when weaker Barca sides continue to trump Zidane's Madrid in head to head in the years after 2015 in both 2017 and 2018. Put Zidane's Madrid against Pep's Barca and it isn't much of a contest. Any time Barca wins there is always an excuse and if Madrid loses there is an excuse. Take off the rose tinted glasses.
Also, in that Juve final against Madrid it was 50-50 at halftime until Juve had an implosion in the locker room. The following season in CL Barca beat Juve 3-0 while Madrid conceded 3 times to a Juve team that nearly knocked them out. A much weaker team than the 2015 version I might add. Madrid was always extremely leaky defensively, and against Pep's Barca they would have been exposed badly. In 2015 there was no question Barca were the better team in the 2015 Final, you like to twist the narrative like Barca fluked a victory that was undeserved which is ironic, considering all the offside goals in Madrid's favor against Atletico and Bayern. The number of times Madrid got to face teams with massive injuries in CL is also astonishing.
If Madrid and Barca matchups would be 50-50 arguably in CL had they met in recent years against a Barca squad inferior to Pep's, there is NO way Zidane's Madrid would beat Pep's. It would be frightening to see what a young Messi would do to this Madrid team.
Also in 2015 Enrique would be on the verge of getting fired, I don't know if you blocked that season out from your memory since Madrid fell apart and blew a massive lead in the league to Barca that year but Barca were AWFUL in the first half of that season. Look it up, all the results are there. Their turnaround from January onward to win a treble was incredible.
And yes, statistically the 2015 MSN were the greatest in history. The midfield began to get worse in the coming years. But 2015 was a front 3 that puts BBC to shame.
It makes no sense how a clearly inferior to Pep's Barca squad is able to consistently do better in H2h against Zidane's side is all of sudden going to have a situation where Zidane's squad is going to beat Pep's. Madrid have been insanely lucky in their CL run and they deserve credit because 3 CL's in a row is quite an achievement. But 2013 Bayern, 2015 Barca and 2011 Barca (especially) are better than this current Madrid era.
Zidane has a winning record against Barcelona though..
Totally agree. That Man Utd side was class, I enjoyed watching that team play week in week out. For me Real Madrid got super lucky this year, but they manage to take advantage of practically every mistake each team made (E.g. Bayern Munich's mistakes in the semi's and Karius' mistakes in the final). They didn't deserve to be the champions, but somehow managed to get there this year.
Pep's Barca were incredible but I think as time passes we risk romanticizing teams. If you look back on the last 20 odd years, I don't think you can look past this RM team - despite what you might think about their style or even how good they 'actually' are (which is mind boggling given the 3 x CL back to back).
I'm not a Madrid fan by any stretch and I appreciate there are some people for who Pep's Barca will never be bettered, even if Zidane and RM go on to win more trophies, because of the way they played. However, for me, the treble back to back CLs is so unprecedented it simply elevates them to a level above anything we have seen before. They always find a way to win in the big games.
I'm not a Madrid fan by any stretch and I appreciate there are some people for who Pep's Barca will never be bettered, even if Zidane and RM go on to win more trophies, because of the way they played. However, for me, the treble back to back CLs is so unprecedented it simply elevates them to a level above anything we have seen before. They always find a way to win in the big games.
Ah so if we are including the supercup should we include friendlies as well? In league play zidane hasn’t fared so well against Barca overall. Against Pep’s side it would’ve been worse as Barca had a proper midfield back then.
No, supercup was taken seriously. In the league they've played like 4 times only and they haven't played in the cup or Champions League.
You can't mention referees for Madrid, but not mention Barca vs Chelsea which is the worst refereeing performance in the history of UCL and the biggest example of referee trying to send a team in the final at all costs. Even in their second win they had luck with referees like RVP's red card and to some degree Pepe's red card (and a goal disallowed for Madrid in the second match) which influenced the game more than anything referees did for Madrid. And the unstoppable Barca got stopped from Inter (referees played a part by allowing an offside goal for Inter, an offside goal for Barca, disallowing a goal for Barca, calling wrongly an one on one offside on Milito and sending off incorrectly Barca, so at the end, Barca was helped more) and a very bad Chelsea team.
If luck played a part for Madrid, it played more for Barca.
First post. Have to respond to this nonsensical view. First of all, you are obviously very selective when it comes to the 2009 tie. These ridiculous accusations and theories people came up with after that match still amuse me (UEFAlona etc), but they also show how forgetful and narrow-minded fans (like yourself) are. Everyone seems to focus on the 2nd leg at Stamford Bridge, and that's understandable since that game had the majority of the decisions going Barca way, and just the fact that the non called penalties were the last impressions. But it's also fecking annoying. Everyone.. please consider the fact that there was a game at our stadium. There was. A game that doesn't play into the narrative here on this board - but Barca fans remember.
Incidents from the 1st leg:
- Penalty on Henry. (watch the highlights if you want proof it's in the penalty area)
- Two major chances for Eto'o running free at the keeper (wrongly called offside)
- Furthermore, Chelsea were very lucky that they didn't get someone sent off, because there were several incident that should have resulted in ree cards or at least more yellows to the same player.
- Puyol on the other hand did get booked, thus making him miss the return fixture. Very unbalanced ref performance in the favor of Chelsea.
Yeah, you can rightfully say those situations didn't mean as much as penalties not called, and that's fair if you look at them isolated. But one should always consider the timing of them - they happened way before anything in the 2nd leg. The results or the sum of those incidents gave Chelsea an advantage heading into the 2nd leg. And even the slightest of advantage counts in these type of matches. So while Chelsea did get cheated in the 2nd leg more so than Barca, there were situations that happened in the first leg that could have changed the dynamics in favor of Barca. Both in that 1st match, but certainly also going into the 2nd leg away.
Then there's Ballack playing handball and of course the Abidal incident. Again, happened before the situations where Chelsea was treated unfairly by the ref, which kinda like the non calls during the 1st leg could have changed the dynamics in favor of Barca. I'm not saying they would have, but at least give it some fecking consideration. feck, I just really hate the uninformed narrative revolving around this tie.
As for the Inter match, Barca had a perfectly fine goal disallowed, which would have sent them through to the final. Busquets playing peek-a-boo was pathetic, but don't act like the ref was favoring Barca when looking at the whole tie he wasn't. Just as the case was in the Barca-Chelsea tie.
IMO Pep's Barca had the greater era so far, though this Madrid team isn't finished. They could be considered 'greater' if they improve domestically. Winning three straight CL titles is a monumental achievement, but they need to win either a Treble (which Madrid have never done) or at least a domestic Double.
Who's best head-to-head? That Barca team would probably beat the current Madrid team. Messi still decides Clasicos, and when you throw the midfield control of prime Xavi, Busquets and Iniesta in there, I think Barca would prove to be the better team.
Who's best head-to-head? That Barca team would probably beat the current Madrid team. Messi still decides Clasicos, and when you throw the midfield control of prime Xavi, Busquets and Iniesta in there, I think Barca would prove to be the better team.
Wow, that's some selective memory. Barcelona had many decisions going against them, especially in that 2010 tie, where it directly cost them place in the final. On the other hand, this Madrid team had literally everything going for them, from decisions to sheer luck.
That's why I don't give too much relevance to cup trophies. Winning them basically always involves some degree of luck, especially when teams are evenly matched. But I guess you're one of those people that perceives football primarily through stats, prestigious trophies and narratives. Some care more for the actual game, though.
You've made 10s of excuses "they're always lucky etc." yet you speak of making excuses, I guess attack is the best form of defense or something
Barca won against Juve in the group stage (who BTW were like 4th/5th in the league at that time), how does that compare to KO rounds let alone a final? Spurs won against Madrid in the GS, where are they now? GS is just a means for advancing to KO rounds, if you finished first better, if not, it doesn't make much of a difference, it's nothing more than that, there's no trophy on the line. I guess being a Barca supporter these years and watching them lose year after year in QF somehow overhyped the group stage for you, I know that feeling
... but it's been so long.And re h2h, I'm not surprised that you conveniently removed Super Copa matches from existence, where Barca lost 5-1 over the two legs, remember what Pique said after those matches? He said that "we felt inferior", and the boards has to do something, because a Clasico is a Clasico, and if a Cup is on the line, all the more significant. Madrid had the better h2h, end of.
In the 2010 tie there were 5 big wrong calls, 3 of which favored Barca.
3 Peat for me anyday.
Everyone knows that Ovebro did more than St Pep, Messi or anyone to start Barca’s six trophy run. No amount of rewriting history by Barca fans will change that.
You've made 10s of excuses "they're always lucky etc." yet you speak of making excuses, I guess attack is the best form of defense or something
Barca won against Juve in the group stage (who BTW were like 4th/5th in the league at that time), how does that compare to KO rounds let alone a final? Spurs won against Madrid in the GS, where are they now? GS is just a means for advancing to KO rounds, if you finished first better, if not, it doesn't make much of a difference, it's nothing more than that, there's no trophy on the line. I guess being a Barca supporter these years and watching them lose year after year in QF somehow overhyped the group stage for you, I know that feeling
And re h2h, I'm not surprised that you conveniently removed Super Copa matches from existence, where Barca lost 5-1 over the two legs, remember what Pique said after those matches? He said that "we felt inferior", and the boards has to do something, because a Clasico is a Clasico, and if a Cup is on the line, all the more significant. Madrid had the better h2h, end of.
No, Madrid got spanked at home a few months later. Barca just lost Neymar the month before, they were in complete dissaray and had a new manager. You always pick the matches that are the earliest in the season (like the prior 3-1 defeat in the 2014/15 season which was Suarez's first game). The 5-1 also greatly flattered Real if we are going that route. Barca hit the post a couple of times but real were the better team in the supercup.
Also, clasico >>>>> super cup, Barca have won the h2h far more consistently over real. Real haven't beaten Barca in the proper league in over 2 years. Zidane even talks about how hard it is to win La Liga. His only recent victories are in a preseason tournament, one where he got humiliated at the bernabeu a few short months later. There's a reason why they say Barca's training ground is Madrid's stadium
And this is all against a Barca squad who are inferior to Pep's, so no argument at all that Pep's Barca would definitely be stronger than Zidane's madrid.
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Not really, but I don't want to go into that. If any resident Barca fan is bothered, he can quickly expose your biased omissions and straight lies, as it's all rather obvious. It's remarkable how passionately biased people still after almost a decade. That Barca thing sure did hit the nerve. It's a strange and fascinating phenomenon, and I have some theories about it, but wouldn't go into it as it's not the topic.
Anyway, according to your version Guardiola's Barca wasn't all that good and fluked their way to 2 titles, while this Madrid is an imperious and dominant side. In reality, it was opposite.
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I even mentioned in the previous post those 5 errors. Go watch the game, it is easy to find them.
Both teams got favorable calls (in case of Ovrebo I think it was more than that) in several matches during the seasons they won UCLs. Usually, top teams get favorable calls because they attack more and when you're attacking it is easier to fool the referees.
A favorable call here and there always happens for the rich clubs, and Real has had more than their fair share, but they've never had a game like Farsa against Chelsea or a series of El Clasicos with a ton of one-sided decisions. By far the most corrupt club in the sport.
People here are talking like we are losing the League by big margins lmao. A very small decision affects you're "domestic consistency" acroos the 38 League games.
2013-14 :Lost League to Atletico by 3 points.
2014-15 :Lost League to Barcelona by 2 points.
2015-16 :Lost League to Barcelona by 1 point.
2013-14 :Lost League to Atletico by 3 points.
2014-15 :Lost League to Barcelona by 2 points.
2015-16 :Lost League to Barcelona by 1 point.
There's no point trying to explain the reality of that Chelsea game in here. At least three of their penalties claims are made up nonsense, but facts don't matter, the agenda was set. Essien should still be in prison today for trying to break Iniesta's leg, but you'll never see that mentioned anywhere, because accidental handballs are more important for some reason.
2018 Lost by an astounding 17 points.
Had Robben, Neuer, Boateng not been injured for Bayern, they would have gone through against Real Madrid in 2018.
Had Lewandowski and Hummels not been injured in the first leg of 2017 Bayern would have gone through there as well and this Real side would only have one CL instead of three.
See how easy it is to make baseless claims that the missing injured player was going to make the difference?
Also, you keep bringing up h2h in Classico but ignore the fact that Barcelona have been superior to Madrid in h2h the last three seasons.
Very true, basically Barca as a team and Messi are better at destroying the minnows but Real and Ronaldo turn up in the big games when it matters most.
Alternatively, Messi is better with a Nike ball and Ronaldo an Adidas ball?
As long as those big games are not domestic? Your so predictable Cal
Are you going to pretend La Liga is more important to the CL?As long as those big games are not domestic? Your so predictable Cal
The 99 side were better!
I just think Madrid have a ruthlessness about them and an uncanny ability to just get through and sometimes it is with major help from the ref's (not like Pep's Barca wasn't either). Man for man I'd have picked VDS, Rio, Vidic but their full-backs. Midfield I'd have Modric and Kroos and up front our Ronaldo was better than this one and Rooney and Tevez would start. We were probably better but unfortunately missed Ronaldo too much and came up against arguably the best club side of the modern era in two finals.
In an ideal world with Ronaldo and the Barca of 2014- we'd have another 2-3 European Cups with Ronaldo staying.
The same goes for the CL, you don't turn up for one tie and you are out.
Away with your sense.
Are you going to pretend La Liga is more important to the CL?
It's less prestigious but when it comes to difficulty then no. Zidane believes that the challenge of maintaining performance across 38 games is more difficult than lifting the Champions League.
Zidane:
Honestly I'd give '07 - '09 Utd a good chance against Madrid.
It's just two fluky KO games difference, now compare their league records and quality of their leagues.
It's just two fluky KO games difference, now compare their league records and quality of their leagues.
How long are you going to hang onto that quote for? If you think any of the players wanted La Liga more than the CL, you're having a joke.
This team will be remembered as the ones who did the CL 3-peat for the first time ever forever. How many people outside Spain remember the late 80s Madrid side who won 5 La Ligas in a row?
Over some years they are behind Barcelona and Real Madrid, but if we look at a shorter period of time, I would say that Bayern was the greatest team of all time. Winning against the legendary Barcelona with 7-0 over two matches was at least the best football performance I have ever seen.
That's because you are clearly a fan of smoking weed to excess. Even Chelsea fans have mostly moved on, why haven't you?
1st one isn't even a foul, that's just embarrassing.
2nd one, I would personally give as a pen, but Drogba ruins it by diving when he realises that he's lost the ball. Also not nearly as bad a shirt pull as the one on Henry in the penalty area in the first leg, airbrushed out of history.
3rd one isn't anything but two powerful aggressive players battling for possession, mostly outside the box btw, and Toure as the stronger player wins out with a great tackle. Not even remotely a penalty, come on.
4th one, that would be EXTREMELY generous to consider that a penalty, particularly for an English team. Anelka loses his balance and falls over. Seriously?
5th one, this is one I could see being given as well, as refs tend to give handballs easily. Two points though. 1) Pique does NOT move his hand to the ball, his hand is exactly where it is before the ball is kicked, so it's not 100% it's definite which is what the rule requires. I think this one is most likely that the ref simply didn't see it based on Pique's body position relative to himself. 2) I'd be fine with that one, but the Ballack one much earlier in the game was more overt since his hand moved towards the ball. Also airbrushed out of history.
6th one, if you think a ball slamming into the upper arm/armpit of a player with his back turned to play can possibly be deliberate, then I don't know what to say. No ref anywhere should give that as a penalty because there is literally zero chance Eto'o knows where the ball is going, and when people jump they put their arms up.
Abidal gets sent off in that game for barely an accidental clash of legs, but across the two games, Essien plants his entire foot on the inside of Iniesta's shin, doesn't even get booked if I remember correctly. Alex and Ballack also got booked early in the game and somehow avoided deserved red cards, particularly Alex late on by preventing a goal scoring opportunity.
Even if you want to believe this was some massive Barca conspiracy, I'd offer that we paid for it the following season against Inter. 2 penalties denied, one for an absolute assault by Samuel on Pique, an offside goal, a blatant wrenching of Messi's shirt leading to Inter regaining possession and scoring from that play, disallowed goal for Barca in the second leg, time wasting to the extent that even the normally classy and above reproach Javier Zanetti was rolling off the pitch "injured" then rolling back on to slow down play. Point is, you're over playing it.
On the subject, it's worth pointing out that Madrid have won back to back Ligas ONCE in nearly 3 decades. They struggle to maintain a season long effort, which is why they focus on the CL. It's a lot easier to "turn up" in the CL if you sacrifice your entire domestic season to do it. They got put out of the Copa by Leganes, ffs. They weren't in the title race for more than half the season. In 2016 they were miles off almost the entire season until Luis Enrique's poor squad management drained the Barca starters who didn't get any rest and we dropped points in like 5 games in a row, that makes it look closer than it actually was. Once Barca went to 1 game a week the Doblete was never in doubt that season.
Your contempt has no end, dear god I gave my opinion and reinforced it with what a manager that constantly wins the CL thinks. I haven't stated what the players wanted or not, do not put words in my mouth.
It really is embarassing the way Barca fans turn the blind eye on everything that doesn't go their way.
Who are all these Chelsea fans who have moved on? Even Ovebro admitted he screwed over Chelsea
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...009-semi-final-ref-admits-mistakes-says-cant/
As for the CL being so easy to win if you give up La Liga, why hasn't Barca tried that? Again, do not pretend you'd rather win La Liga than the CL.
Your Zidane quote: "It's more difficult. I've always said that: it's more difficult. Winning the league makes me more excited, it’s the most difficult competition and I also think it’s what the players want."
You were saying?
That's Zidane's word not mine. What the players want or not it doesn't matter to me as the question was what is more important.