There's a point to be made about the 08-09 Real side but after that Barca faced strong competition from them. People forget due to his CL exit that Pellegrini's 09-10 team was very fecking good - they'd just made a world record signing and had improved vastly. There's a bit of a difference now in that Atletico are stronger than they were then, but they've not won the title since 13-14 despite how impressive they are and have never directly thwarted Real winning the title.
Pep's Barcelona vs Zidane's Real Madrid
- Thread starter sullydnl
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Pepe played the same role in the Copa where Messi played well. Look Ronaldo didn't face a team parking the bus tonight, Liverpool were far more adventurous offering more space and saying he was worse than Ronaldo tonight shows your evident bias.
Cristiano Ronaldo vs Liverpool
0 Goals
0 Assists
0 Chances Created
14 Dispossessions
8 Touches
8 Passes (43% Pass Accuracy)
12 Shots (2 on Target)
Yet Messi was worse? I'm done with this.
It's really pathetic, anything to undermine Pep's side, Real were serious business and pumped loads of money into that team and did all they could to throw Barca off their throne. Mourinho made it competitive and his side was immense, penalties away from a CL final against Chelsea as well.
My mistake, saw it posted and thought it was real but in hindsight looks off. The sentiment is still there though, the other poster said Messi at the Bernabeu when he scored the two CL goals was worse than Ronaldo tonight which is absurd IMO. No propaganda against Cristiano, he is the man of the CL and me simply having a debate with another poster who initially brought up that point. So debating about football that doesn't involve your team all of a sudden means I don't focus on my own team? Your being unfair, my mistake with the silly stats but I can debate topics from Ronaldo to Hull City without remarks like that.
My bad, I hadn't seen the post in the other thread before I replied to you and that wasn't directed at you specifically. I mostly agree with what you're saying although I think it's fair to say Madrid have tougher competition in La Liga than Pep's Barca.
Both Pellegrini and Mourinho pushed that Real team hard and came very close points-wise, but both those teams were weaker than the one we see today.
This is how they lined up for the bulk of the 09-10 season:
Casillas
Arbeloa - Ramos - Albiol - Marcelo
Kaka - Diarra - Alonso - Granero
Higuain - Ronaldo
With a worse subs bench, aside from Benzema who rotated with Higuain. A decent team but still not a candle to the Barca teams post-Pep.
Mourinho came in in 2010-11 and signed Ozil, Di Maria and Khedira, and alongside Pepe and Benzema becoming regulars means they definitely did improve. But that's still only 1 out of 3 seasons they faced a Real side that was relatively good, and even then that team was a few years away from the current one that has Modric, Kroos, Casemiro (a whole midfield) and Carvajal and Bale added to it.
Meanwhile in recent times Barca have regressed with players like Xavi, Alves and Puyol leaving, but they've improved in attack through signing Neymar and Suarez whilst keeping the spine of the team relatively stable through Messi, Busquets, Iniesta and Pique and a good supporting case around those. As such whilst it is a blemish that Madrid haven't won more La Ligas over the last 4 years, it is more expectable when they've been in competition with a much stronger side than the one Pep's Barca faced for at least 2 out of 3 years, especially when you consider the 14-15 Barca treble winning, free-scoring side.
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Sorry, just saw this, see my reply above.
Its a very good accomplishment but they really dont look very impressive at all. At half time they certainly didn't look anywhere near as good as City have been this season let alone the greatest club side ever.
Pep’s Barca was the better side, easily. Everyone of those players was playing in their prime. They annihlated everyone that crossed them domestically and in Europe. This Madrid team though, has a huge winning mentality. They know how to win the important games. Plus the Madrid bench is far better.
Seems us "scouse lovers" were right in the end. City would've beaten them.
Maybe. Impossible to say, and Madrid got better after half time while Liverpool were losing momentum losing their best player and their goalkeeper giving away free goals.
But I'm a bit surprised at the reaction to Madrid's performance. It was half a good one at best, against a team we didnt have problems against. Madrid managed 2 shots wide (Marcelo and Ronaldo) and an offside goal in the first half. Is that any better than us? And we've been poor going forward.
So yeah, half a good performance, some free goals from the keeper and a wonder goal from a substitute who had just come on.
90's AC Milan
Its way harder to win 3 champions leagues in a row than to win a treble imo, easily real madrid.
If you're the sort of person who thinks Pep's Barca is better than Zidane's Real Madrid, then you're probably the same sort of person who thinks that the 'invincibles' were better than 2007-2011 United or 1999-2001 United. You can't compare a team that could never go back to back in europe to one that won 3 in a row and 4 in 5 years.
I like this guy.
In 2.5 years as Madrid manager, he won 3 Champions league. It's just insane record. This team haven't lost a European tie in 3 years and they have played Bayern. Juventus, PSG, Atletico Madrid few times. Amazing consistency in CL.
Well, i am biased but still 70's AJAX is the best ever in my opinion.
Me too.
Pep’s Barca would do them.
They are a great CL side, but their league record is not great.
How can you be considered the best team in Europe when you’re not even the best in your country?
Great side don’t get me wrong, but nowhere near as good as Pep’s Barca.
People forget how dominant they were, it didn’t matter who they were playing, it always looked like they were playing against a youth team, they were utterly dominant.
They are a great CL side, but their league record is not great.
How can you be considered the best team in Europe when you’re not even the best in your country?
Great side don’t get me wrong, but nowhere near as good as Pep’s Barca.
People forget how dominant they were, it didn’t matter who they were playing, it always looked like they were playing against a youth team, they were utterly dominant.
Pep's Barca all day, this Madrid team had all the luck in the world in all 3 wins and have not been winning domestically either. They just had a freak run in this tournament and had the fortune of having no outstanding teams across Europe in the past 5 years compared to that Barca team (United, Bayrn). Don't get me wrong it is amazing what they did but i just can't rate a team with the best ever just because they won the CL without any notable domestic success to speak of.
The CL just loves them, they get all the breaks and luck in the world but that is what you need to win the dam thing !!
The CL just loves them, they get all the breaks and luck in the world but that is what you need to win the dam thing !!
Barca won in 09 and 11 and were probably only just prevented from winning it in 2010 by a tactical masterclass from Mourinho. At a time when they were winning consecutive league titles as well.
I think there's an argument that Zidane's side are better (even though I'd disagree) due to the sheer impressiveness of winning three-in-a-row, but competitions are often decided on fine margins and Barca missing out on one between 08-11 doesn't necessarily make them the lesser side.
I think Ronaldo v Messi sums them up to be fair. One is very efficient and uses experience well. One is nicer to watch. Both very good.
Barca was also without Iniesta in the 2nd leg against Inter. Fine margins, fine margins.
Barca was more dominant imo. Their 10/11 might be the best - biggest luck they had was Van Persie's ridiculous red card, but Barca got a correct goal called off in the first leg IIRC.
Current Real Madrid not winning the league against the far inferior Barca 17/18 side doesn't look good either.
Barca's 08/09 CL was a gift - 09/10 CL & 11/12 CL were narrowly lost.
Current Real Madrid not winning the league against the far inferior Barca 17/18 side doesn't look good either.
Barca's 08/09 CL was a gift - 09/10 CL & 11/12 CL were narrowly lost.
Yeah, obviously the CL is the highest level at which club teams compete but in any cup competitions freak moments, luck and who you come up against in the draw will factor in to a certain extent, and when you've got two very good teams it'll often just depend on who turns up on the night. Liverpool won in 05, but clearly weren't a better side than the Chelsea one that year who they knocked out in the semis and who steamrolled the league. Similarly the Chelsea side who won in 2012 finished behind Pardew's Newcastle and Redknapp's Spurs. They (again) evidently weren't the best side in Europe.
None of that is meant to knock this Real side. They've won the last two finals convincingly, and by clear margins. The draw largely worked against them this year to an extent: they consistently came up against the best sides in various leagues before reaching the final. But very fine margins still do define cup competitions, and I feel like it's hard to rank this Real side ahead of Pep's Barca one when they're currently lagging behind a Barca side domestically that's far weaker than that Barca side from 08-11.
Zidane has been a manager for 2,5 years. What's there to compare? He completely destroyed Guardiola when it comes to what he has achieved in his time at the club.
This comparison doesn't make any sense at all. If anything it's the other way around.
Pep's Barca has more in common with 2007-2011 United in terms of consistent performances if you look at their domestic title wins in that period while Zidane's Real and the Invincibles' success were cup competitons/just one season which are both more likely to be aided by some luck.
Put it this way. If this years Barca were playing Real in the final. Real would not be winning their 3rd consecutive CL. Pep's Barca will destroy this Real.
Barcelona easily. I’m actually surprised by how close the poll is. Barcelona in their prime showed a level domination that bordered on the grotesque. I mean top teams were going to the Camp Nou and played like 2 division teams to even have a chance. I have never seen anything like that before and since.
Real Madrid will also go down as a historical great team but they were never as dominant and they were also very very lucky over the years. I have no problem with them having luck btw. because It’s part of the game but you would be silly to not take that into account when comparing teams.
Real Madrid is like an olympic sprinter that wins 4 100 meter gold medals in a row, clocking ~9.85 and winning closely.
Barcelona is like Usain Bolt winning two (I know he won three
) in a row but absolutely pulverizing the field and world record.
That would be an apt comparision for me.
Real Madrid will also go down as a historical great team but they were never as dominant and they were also very very lucky over the years. I have no problem with them having luck btw. because It’s part of the game but you would be silly to not take that into account when comparing teams.
Real Madrid is like an olympic sprinter that wins 4 100 meter gold medals in a row, clocking ~9.85 and winning closely.
Barcelona is like Usain Bolt winning two (I know he won three
) in a row but absolutely pulverizing the field and world record.That would be an apt comparision for me.
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That's just not true at all IMO. This Real side is so immensely resilient.
Yeah I'm not denying that but they struggle to beat the current Barca. Pep's Barca would run rings around their players.
This Madrid team gets beaten on a Regular basis by a much poorer barca team and had poor league run.
They are able to win in the champions league tho. But you can't compare the two.
They are able to win in the champions league tho. But you can't compare the two.
Pep's Barca in away KO rounds (last 16, QF and SF) during four years won only twice in 12 matches = 16% win rate.
Zizou's Madrid in away KO rounds won 8 out of 9 matches = 89% win rate. That's unprecedented.
But rose-tinted glasses makes some of you forget all that, as one poster rightfully said playing in finals vs MU (in a MU message board) had an obvious effect on overhyping them and not seeing the bigger picture.
Re league comparisons, obviously this year hasn't been a good one for Zizou, but he won it last year, and won the year before as well by 10 pts!, if you count it from when he take the hel from freaking Benitez. So 2 out of 3 (if the emphasis is on what Zizou did) ain't bad by any measure.
Zizou's Madrid in away KO rounds won 8 out of 9 matches = 89% win rate. That's unprecedented.
But rose-tinted glasses makes some of you forget all that, as one poster rightfully said playing in finals vs MU (in a MU message board) had an obvious effect on overhyping them and not seeing the bigger picture.
Re league comparisons, obviously this year hasn't been a good one for Zizou, but he won it last year, and won the year before as well by 10 pts!, if you count it from when he take the hel from freaking Benitez. So 2 out of 3 (if the emphasis is on what Zizou did) ain't bad by any measure.
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Best team in history this Real Madrid. The way they win these games by going through the motions year after year, eliminating big team after big team.
Unbelievable and unmatched. The art of winning at it's finest.
Unbelievable and unmatched. The art of winning at it's finest.
Zidane's Real Madrid team has multiple gears and multiple tactical setups. The team can play possession and it can play counter attack. It can sit back and defend, and it can also maintain a high line and press its opponents. This flexibility means that it is like a multi headed hydra, one which most coaches would be perplexed as to how to set up against, considering that this team can always come out with a setup which negates the setup that a coach comes out with. Add to this the fact that this team is able to find that extra gear when it matters e.g. like in the 2nd half of the CL final vs Juve or in the 2nd half in the 1st leg vs PSG in this year's CL QF, and one can see how so many different managers and teams of high quality, have found it difficult to finish it off across two legs or in a one off final.
Pep's Barcelona on the other hand seemed to have only a single plan and playstyle, which of course was extremely successful and in which the team's players specialised to a degree that made it very effective. However, that also made it difficult for the model to be replicated with the same success elsewhere (the main reason for Pep's lack of CL success outside of Barcelona). And yet it had a major drawback in that it was just not as dynamic as it is required to be, to always take care of comparably high quality teams of varying playing styles and tactical setups i.e. the kind one finds in the latter stages of the CL.
In conclusion, Pep's style is probably better for league play, wherein there aren't as many comparably high quality teams and thus the team's specialisation and quality prove overwhelming. Zidane's non-style or hydra-like team on the other hand is probably better for cup competitions with comparably high quality opponents, due to its flexibility and sheer unpredictability so long as Zidane keeps getting his tactics and setups right or so long as he makes the necessaray changes to get them right in time. However, these are aspects that can backfire when the requirement is to maintain a certain consistent level, as is required in a league campaign, since the players themselves have to continuously adjust and might not feel the same motivation in doing so against a low level league opponent. As for a 1v1 between the teams, it would probably go to Zidane's Real Madrid 7 times out of 10, considering that it plays into his team's specialisation of a knockout tie vs comparably high quality opposition. (Note: One shouldn't read too much into his team's league performances vs the current Barcelona btw, considering that during the same time that his team have lost 2 and drawn 2 in the league against that team, his team have been able to beat Barcelona across 2 legs to win the Spanish SuperCup).
Pep's Barcelona on the other hand seemed to have only a single plan and playstyle, which of course was extremely successful and in which the team's players specialised to a degree that made it very effective. However, that also made it difficult for the model to be replicated with the same success elsewhere (the main reason for Pep's lack of CL success outside of Barcelona). And yet it had a major drawback in that it was just not as dynamic as it is required to be, to always take care of comparably high quality teams of varying playing styles and tactical setups i.e. the kind one finds in the latter stages of the CL.
In conclusion, Pep's style is probably better for league play, wherein there aren't as many comparably high quality teams and thus the team's specialisation and quality prove overwhelming. Zidane's non-style or hydra-like team on the other hand is probably better for cup competitions with comparably high quality opponents, due to its flexibility and sheer unpredictability so long as Zidane keeps getting his tactics and setups right or so long as he makes the necessaray changes to get them right in time. However, these are aspects that can backfire when the requirement is to maintain a certain consistent level, as is required in a league campaign, since the players themselves have to continuously adjust and might not feel the same motivation in doing so against a low level league opponent. As for a 1v1 between the teams, it would probably go to Zidane's Real Madrid 7 times out of 10, considering that it plays into his team's specialisation of a knockout tie vs comparably high quality opposition. (Note: One shouldn't read too much into his team's league performances vs the current Barcelona btw, considering that during the same time that his team have lost 2 and drawn 2 in the league against that team, his team have been able to beat Barcelona across 2 legs to win the Spanish SuperCup).
I always find Champions League wins without a league title accompanying it a bit hollow. This Madrid side isn't even the best in their currently, let alone greatest side ever.
To be the best team ever you have to at least be winning your domestic league pretty regularly, which Barcelona did (I think).
To be the best team ever you have to at least be winning your domestic league pretty regularly, which Barcelona did (I think).
Still Pep's Barcelona for me. Can't ignore how limp Madrid have looked in the league at times.
Now if you're of the opinion that the league and domestic cups count for feck all, then I'd see why you'd rate Zidanes side above Pep's.
Now if you're of the opinion that the league and domestic cups count for feck all, then I'd see why you'd rate Zidanes side above Pep's.
This, I never seen a team as dominant and as good as that Barca, they are easily 3 levels above this Real Madrid team
They had their weaknesses but they were so good at what they were good at it didn't matter most of the time if you scored 3 goals they would score more
The most dominant team I have ever seen and probably ever will see
with Pep's Barca it didn't matter what you had in your team because you couldn't really match the quality of prime Messi and Xavi & Iniesta. you could "only" beat them tactically, by defending and waiting your chances, rarely - if ever by outplaying them. you coudn't really last until ET or penalties against them, like you can with Madrid.
current Madrid side can be outplayed and they have rival that have a certain psychological advantage over them + even better player than Ronaldo. you couldn't say that for Pep's Barca. there weren't possible upgrades available on their best players neither there was team they were particularly scared of. they were just better than everyone.
current Madrid side can be outplayed and they have rival that have a certain psychological advantage over them + even better player than Ronaldo. you couldn't say that for Pep's Barca. there weren't possible upgrades available on their best players neither there was team they were particularly scared of. they were just better than everyone.