Statistically it won't say so, but that 08/09 team was so so so magic. World of football was barely prepared for it, even if they needed a shade of luck against super anti-football Chelsea to get what they deserved.
Was mentioned in mine bruv. But otherwise throughout that span, they comprehensively deserved it....especially the 10/11 win, with what is still likely Messi's finest hour in the semi in the biggest game of recent memory for both clubs really.
Theres not many CL wins that I don't feel haven't had luck, and as bias as it seems, I believe United have had the worst luck in my lifetime, shitty stuff happening in most exits - except not Sevilla and a couple others of course - but I would say in 08, 09, 11, 15 and 17 you genuinely had the best team in Europe winning....pretty much fairly. Three of those are Barcelona.
And yet Jose's won it twice - despite for me, not winning when he did create the best team in Europe(back to back years with Chelsea 05-06 and Real 2012).
Funny old sport.
I thought Barca won 2 out of those 4. 1 draw and 1 loss.Pep's Barca can do whatever they want, at the end Zizou's Madrid will get the result.
There are too many rose-tinted glasses looking at Pep's Barca, their away record in CL was simply horrible compared to Madrid.
Also remember the 4 consecutive Clasicos within 2 weeks? Barca won just one out of 4, and that was due to horrible refereeing with Pepe being sent off for a non-challenge on Alves' dive (also another legit goal by Higuain was ruled out in the away match, or that'd have been another win).
Now that Madrid side wasn't nearly as good as Zizou's Madrid, especially last season's version when they were at their peak.
That's a fair point that's why I rate them more a of a GOAT cup team.Barca was a domestic force next to the CL. That's what makes me rate Guardiola's Barca higher for now.
Nah not for me mate and i'm talking about 2010-2011 United here. It was still a pretty good side, better than the one Liverpool that played tonight anyway. Rooney, Nani and Valencia in the form of their careers, Hernandez and Berbatov both getting 20+ goals and plenty of experience. Not saying they would beat this Madrid side but they would have had a better chance than a side with the likes of Henderson, Karius, Lalanna and Milner in it.
Possibly mate yeah, but i don't see how this Madrid side would have beaten that Barca side in 2009 & 2011. That team was just too dominant.
I was referring to our 08/09 side, not the 10/11 (probably our weakest team to reach the final). There wasn't a huge difference in our 08/09 side compared to the 07/08, core was basically the same and do remember we absolutely cruised our way to a PL title (when there was actual quality in big 4 teams) and a CL final where we were well beaten by that Barca side.
Barca's overall quality of players in XI and play was higher but this Real side is more ruthless, things that are repeated ad nauseam in Messi v Ronaldo thread so it's a very good comparison imo.
There is a trend in this thread that discounts Madrid's domestic incompetence. During the Zidane's tenure they have 1 domestic trophy, Pep Barca during the same timeframe have 3 titles and one Cup. Even Zidane admitted the league title is the greater achievement over a European trophy (not 3 in a row because that's amazing so don't kill me).
But that discounts that the Barca team Madrid have faced over the past 3 years (which includes 2 seasons of Messi / Suarez / Neymar) is streets ahead of the Madrid team that Barca faced through 2008-11. That team had players like Granero, Albiol, Arbeloa, Diarra starting regularly. Only for 1 season (the last) did they face Mourinho's madrid, which was still a fair bit inferior to this current one.
Three champions league in a row. Also, they beat the champions of France, Italy and Germany on their way to the title this year.
That Barca team seemed unstoppable - but weren’t. This Madrid team seem stoppable - but aren’t. Madrid take it for me.
Barca was a domestic force next to the CL. That's what makes me rate Guardiola's Barca higher for now.
Yeah agree on the domestic front. For me, the domestic performance show your average performance - Pep has always shown he is the best in the business when it comes to this. But this Madrid team, they just have a never say die attitude. There exists an intangible element to their game - and I feel like they could beat any team in a one off game.Only if you discount domestic performances. I do like that last sentence though, this Madrid team have great mental strength, they look beatable and for the taking but churn out results every time in Europe.
They did not, won one (thanks to the ref for Pepe Alves incident which turned the match on its head), drew 2 (one of which should've been a loss if not for disallowing Higuain's legit goal), and lost one (CDR final), and this was all in Mou's first season where Madrid weren't really good, while it was arguably peak Barca under Pep.I thought Barca won 2 out of those 4. 1 draw and 1 loss.
Barca were by the far the better team, but if it came down to a single final, this Real team would probably win.
Makes no sense, but there you go.
They did not, won one (thanks to the ref for Pepe Alves incident which turned the match on its head), drew 2 (one of which should've been a loss if not for disallowing Higuain's legit goal), and lost one (CDR final), and this was all in Mou's first season where Madrid weren't really good, while it was arguably peak Barca under Pep.
Nah, Messi's finest ever performance turned that game on it's head.
Sorry I meant the 10-11 side, not the 11-12 side. It was still night and day between the 07-08 team and the 10-11 team as I mentioned in the previous post.
Nani was in great form but didn't start the final sadly (nor the 08/09 one). Our midfield of Carrick, Giggs, Anderson wasn't much better truthfully than Wjnaldum/Ox, Milner, Henderson. Our front 3 of Park, Rooney and Valencia is miles behind the current Pool front 3. Our back 4 barring Fabio were better than Pool's back 4, but not noticeably barring Lovren's occasional blunders, though obviously Van Der Sar was better.
It wasn't a great team really.
He wasnt even in the game till Pepe's sending off, before that he was in Pepe's pocket, not to mention that Madrid had the better chances.Nah, Messi's finest ever performance turned that game on it's head.
It was reckless by Pepe, but there was no contact, and not one of the cases that you can call it on intent alone, unlike Messi's horrible foul on Ramos in the last Clasico where he tried 2 successive attempts at hurting Ramos, and with contact as well.That was a straight red, studs first on Alves, playacting or not clear as day red. You get it for intent alone. No idea why people still push that narrative.
He wasnt even in the game till Pepe's sending off, before that he was in Pepe's pocket, not to mention that Madrid had the better chances.
Pepe header, hitting the post? That's a nice deflection attempt though, Messi was worse than Ronaldo tonight till ref bailed him out of the hole he was in (Pepe) and now it's hailed as a "majesterial" performance.What chances you parked the bus? Super negative game by Madrid and apart from the Xavi shot and a Madrid attempt before the end of the half there wasn't much happening because of the tactics. Terrible football game that light up in the end.
Pepe header, hitting the post? That's a nice deflection attempt though, Messi was worse than Ronaldo tonight till ref bailed him out of the hole he was in (Pepe) and now it's hailed as a "majesterial" performance.
They don't need to beat Barcelona to win the title, they need to make sure they beat the other teams. Last year they drew and lost against us but won the title, its about being consistent and competitive against the other sides. They finished 17 points behind Barca this year ffs.
Case in point in 2015 Barcelona won the league on the last day as anything but a win meant a Madrid title but they clinched it. It doesn't matter if its Tata Martino's Barcelona or Pep's the fact of the matter is the difference between the CL Madrid and the domestic one is night and day and it's a major drawback on their status.
Watching the highlights for such a match/tactics would be missing/deflecting the point entirely.Just randomly watched the highlights for this....and well if you fancy a few frustrated potshots over creating the only true opening, then yeah I guess.
But it's not Messi's fault Pepe went off, Madrid were still boringly defensively, and fatiguing....he took over. Just like you know, others have when for whatever reason a marker has gone off....best case being Rafa having a meltdown and taking Masch off, allowing Kaka to murder Liverpool for 15 minutes.
It's still probably, due to the fact that somehow the El Clasico final hasn't happened, the biggest two games for both players. And Messi ended it more or less.
I'd take Carrick & Giggs over Henderson and Milner any day, it's not even close. Not much better my arse mate.
I'd swap Salah for Valencia from the front 3's but and thats it, Nani was better than Mane as well. Firminho miles better than peak Rooney? feck sake mate, are you a Liverpool fan? Jesus.
Great no but very good, way better than the current Liverpool side. Keeper, defence, midfield, attack, depth, experience. Just better everywhere bar Salah, they even won a league title.
We're off topic so let's revisit the comparison if this current Liverpool team manage to ever win... well anything.
The problem with Real is no ambition for the league, they just don’t care, reminds me Ronaldo and Ronaldinho when they didn’t care a bit for South America tournament saying the real tournament was the World Cup.Yeah agree on the domestic front. For me, the domestic performance show your average performance - Pep has always shown he is the best in the business when it comes to this. But this Madrid team, they just have a never say die attitude. There exists an intangible element to their game - and I feel like they could beat any team in a one off game.
I still think PSG could have beaten them if Neymar decided to make the correct decisions.This Madrid side are talented individuals pushing through with a dressing room brimmed with leaders and winners who get results. Barcelona were a unit who’d win games by stamping their football into a side.
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Has there been a tougher run-in to a CL final than what Madrid just went through this season?
PSG -> Juventus -> Bayern -> Liverpool
They’re absolute freaks in the CL.
Nah I don't buy that, the front 3 as a collective were nowhere near this pool front 3. Nani was very good that season and yet didn't even start the final, Park / Rooney / Valencia is a pretty uninspiring front 3. Those 3 scored a combined 27 goals throughout the whole season that year. Liverpool's front 3 this season have scored 91 goals between them - more than 3 times as many as those 3. If we include Nani instead of park the total is 29 goals in the season. Also you can't selectively quote me and say I said Rooney is miles better than Firmino - I said the collective - and even if we compare the two Firmino's scored 27 this season vs Rooney's 16 that season, and even if we take Rooney's supposed peak the season after he still scored not that many more than Firmino at 34 goals.
The midfield 3 of Carrick/Ando/Giggs were individually better than Ox/Wjnaldum + Milner & Hendo, but collectively were they a great midfield? No. And there's a clash of styles there - Pool play Hendo and Milner for a specific purpose - to defend, because their attack is so lethal. They could easily play Ox/Wjnaldum/Lallana and it'd be more creative but they don't need to - our 10/11 team had to be less defensive minded and more attack simply because our front 3 was far poorer than theirs is.
It's also very disingenuous to say our team was better simply because we won the league - we had SAF, the competition was weaker, and pool signing Van Djik has improved them in the second half of the season. For me a better way to judge the team is the football they've actually played - this Liverpool team in the second half of the season are way ahead. They were the better team vs Madrid for the first 25 mins until Salah went off injured, and they beat City 3 times in the second half of the season. There's no way in hell our 10/11 team would've been harder for Madrid than the current Liverpool team.
This season they've been poor but your logic is flawed - they may not need to beat Barca but they do need to be better than Barca throughout the season against all the other teams. It was far easier for Pep's Barca to do that with little competition as the Real time was poor - whereas the 2014 and 2015 Barca teams had MSN up front. Real won last year and have been poor this season - but their competition is far stronger in La Liga than the one Pep faced.
