Haha, fair enough. Let’s also throw in doubts about Fergie being able to manage a team in a different football culture/country with a different language. We can go all day talking about things people haven’t done. It’s ridiculous
'Pep' Guardiola sack watch
- Thread starter Classical Mechanic
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Haha, fair enough. Let’s also throw in doubts about Fergie being able to manage a team in a different football culture/country with a different language. We can go all day talking about things people haven’t done. It’s ridiculous
If lots of people have done what Pep has done then why are some of the biggest clubs in the world giving the managing job to the likes of Ole, Pirlo, Pochettino, Lampard, Koeman etc, who haven't done anything of note? I don't think PSG's chairman chose between Pep's equal and Pochettino and went "You know what, I'm not feeling the guy who can do what Pep has done for Barca, Bayern and City, I want the one who has never won a single trophy in his entire career instead."
Pep will never be anything special to folks on this forum, that is unless:
1. He first goes to Aberdeen and wins a european title against Real Madrid
2. Comes to West ham when they are low and builds a new team
3. Does it for 27 years on a repeat and wins more PL and CL titles than fergie
4. Do everything ferguson did and more. And do it on a budget (because ferguson never spent money) while having "pep's fledglings"
For sure, I think it was Rooney who gave an interview where he said something like the players were shocked when Ferguson wanted to press the life out of them and show them who's boss before the game and its expanded from there. Truth is with that Barca side, you could die on your sword or die sitting back but either way you inevitably died.
Let me ask you then why do all the big clubs want him and not any of the other Barca managers? Rajikaard took Barca out of their dark period and won 2 leagues and a CL titles yet after Barca he coached in Turkey and Saudi Arabia. Enrique is a treble winner yet the best offer he had on his table is the Spain Int. job. If he had offers from Bayern, Chelsea, City, PSG, Juve etc he probably wouldn't have taken the Spain job.
Pep can lose the CL final to Chelsea if he decide to step down he'd have all have Europe at his doorstep who'd desperately want to sign him. He's the most sought after manager at the moment who comes with a huge price tag...why are clubs desperate for him Juve president said Pep is a dream for any club, PSG who's owners networth is double Abu Dhabi have offered him an insane deal he turned down before extending with City...so question is why?
I don’t think many are questioning Pep being a great manager, I know I’m certainly not however I think some are taking issues with how you’re trying to prove you’re right by diminishing Fergies achievements and making weird and biased statements like ‘you don’t count his Aberdeen success’ and ‘you think Pep will eventually win more CL’s so he’s had more success in Europe’. I’ve yet to see you make a valid argument as to why I could potentially change my opinion that Pep has so far had a better career than Fergie.
I don’t think anyone is expecting him to go to West Ham to prove himself but if he was to take over a Milan for example and turn them into a dominant force again I think it would cement his legacy undeniably.
Ultimately for me it comes down to a manager who could work under any circumstances at any club and be successful regardless and I’d always bank on a Fergie or a Klopp over Pep, just to clarify that’s not me saying Pep can’t do it but the other 2 I mentioned have proven it whereas Pep hasn’t so it’s still up for debate. On the flip side if I had the unlimited resources I can see the argument Pep comes out on top, although I question his European record, but others have proven they can succeed at the highest level with big budgets also
I'm not sure but I'm not sure what point you're making either.
Why do you think those managers, who won lots, didn't then follow the expected career path?
There is something about Pep that top clubs see and they want. Bayern hurried Jupp to retirement for him, Fergie tried to convince him for it, City cleared house for him, etc that
The other Barcelona coaches you mentioned obviously lack
You think they got offer from top clubs and just decided No, I will rather coach Fenerbahce or in Saudi?
Mancini left Citeh and his next club was in Turkey, Pellegrini left City and his next job was in China
Ranieiri after winning the EPL with Leicester one of the greatest achievements of this century(what some said is the criteria that determine great coaches), left Leicester and landed at Nantes and Fulham
RdM won the CL with Chelsea etc
Yet all these great achievements, those clubs are not running after them as they do for Pep
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I've not read or seen many interviews with Pep or articles about him, however I've always assumed he would keep club hopping or go back to Barca eventually.
He left Barca when he had built arguably the greatest club side of all time, despite being Barca through and through himself. I vaguely recall it may have also had something to do with the club politics as well.
Basically what I'm saying is, when is he going to just feck off? OK on the one hand City can give him everything he needs to build a top team, but they aren't alone in that, and off all the top sides at present they are the most soulless. Surely he will get bored at some point and move on?
He left Barca when he had built arguably the greatest club side of all time, despite being Barca through and through himself. I vaguely recall it may have also had something to do with the club politics as well.
Basically what I'm saying is, when is he going to just feck off? OK on the one hand City can give him everything he needs to build a top team, but they aren't alone in that, and off all the top sides at present they are the most soulless. Surely he will get bored at some point and move on?
I think he'll stay until he wins a CL and/or thinks he can't win one at City in the near future. Barca prioritise the CL over La Liga and I wouldn't be surprised if Pep would swap all 3 PL's he's won at City for being European champion once.
Problem is that I'd assumed he'd go back to Barca too but they're such a shambles even Xavi turned down the job recently.
We wouldn't go back to Barcelona now. He'd want an easier job.
Ouch! That's not very nice Yimby. Let's talk about football and leave the insults out of it.
For instance, Are you still of the belief that Fergie bought his way to the top like City or has this not very bright person disabused you of that silly notion?
I think the fact that people are giving those jobs to old club legends actually makes my point rather than yours. Owners are trying to repeat the Pep at Barca story because it's proven to be repeatable. Zidane, Enrique etc.
Also why do people keep installing football club owners as the paragons of footballing knowledge? Football club owners know no more or less than the average person. Do you really think Mansour or his PSG equivalent have some massive football intelligence?
I feel it's strange that this has to be pointed out again and again but the main reason for City's success is the playing squad and not the coaching squad. That's why they spent so much more on the playing squad. And that's why clubs are willing to take a punt on inexperienced or unproven club legends to manage their clubs.
Because, and this may be the most important thing I say, It ain't that complicated.
Nope.
He doesn't have to do exactly what Fergie did. He just has to replicate one Fergie trait.
He has to win something without having the most talented squad at his disposal. It's that simple.
A la Fergie when he took over at Aberdeen and United. Wenger when he took over at Arsenal. Clough when he took over at Forest or Derby. Klopp when he took over at Liverpool.
If he does that I'll change my opinion.
Exactly. He doesn’t have to match or replicate what Fergie did. If he managed to do what Klopp did for Liverpool (basically took a decent/good team into great/dominant team winning everything in sight under reasonable spending), I’ll surely changed my opinion on him.
If your first paragraph is true then your 2nd paragraph makes a whole lot of sense because they would have to be pretty stupid to believe that a manager with a big check book has a great chance to be as successful and influentual as Pep was for Barca simply because they've played for the club previously.
I guess they've learned by now that it fails a whole lot more times than it succeeds given the fact that Lampard, Pirlo, Poch, Koeman, Arteta etc have taken their clubs backwards instead of forwards, while the guys who have managed United for the past 8 years surely have proven that having lots of money is far from a guarantee for success, trophies and setting records left and right.
The thing is that Pep isn't seen as one of the best managers in the world just because of his trophy haul, it's just as much about how he wins as how much he wins. He basically changed the game with Barcelona, he set some pretty crazy records at Bayern and City gave him free reign to restructure the way every team in the club plays football, which seems to have been a very good decision. I hate the way he took two CL's from us and his current success at City just as much as the next guy, but to say he's done nothing special or that other managers have done what he's done is pretty narrow minded imo.
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If your first paragraph is true then your 2nd paragraph makes a whole lot of sense because they would have to be pretty stupid to believe that a manager with a big check book has a great chance to be as successful and influentual as Pep was for Barca simply because they've played for the club previously.
Oh managers can definitely get it wrong whether they're past legends or not. Mourinho at United, Mourinho at Spurs.
I guess they've learned by now that it fails a whole lot more times than it succeeds given the fact that Lampard, Pirlo, Poch, Koeman, Arteta etc have taken their clubs backwards instead of forwards, while the guys who have managed United for the past 8 years surely have proven that having lots of money is far from a guarantee for success, trophies and setting records left and right.
Again managers can get it wrong and not everybody is cut out for it. I don't think anybody is saying Pep isn't a good manager. It's just whether he's a great manager that is up for debate. Given the squads he's had at his disposal and the money he has at City I think he's done well but as I've said, it has been repeated by managers who aren't seen as great.
The thing is that Pep isn't seen as one of the best managers in the world just because of his trophy haul, it's just as much about how he wins as how much he wins. He basically changed the game with Barcelona, he set some pretty crazy records at Bayern and City gave him free reign to restructure the way every team in the club plays football, which seems to have been a very good decision. I hate the way he took two CL's from us and his current success at City just as much as the next guy, but to say he's done nothing special or that other managers have done what he's done is pretty narrow minded imo.
I genuinely don't think you could play boring football with the players he has had. Barca were pretty exciting after he left too. City played great stuff under Pellegrini and Bayern were amazing before he took over. Didn't they trounce his Barcelona? Don't you agree that all of that is true? Managers do have some influence but if you put that 2011 Barca team out I reckon they'd still play some nice football.
To think Pep isn’t a great manager is absurd to me. I’m all for arguing his achievements are exaggerated or overhyped but he’s clearly an elite level coach
He had the chance at the easiest job by continuing with Barca back then, he still left. Even SAF suggested that he cannot understand why would Pep leave that side.
If Pep did not leave Barca back then, he would have more than 2 UCLs now
Pep repeatedly said he won't coach Barca again. It's basically City + maybe some italian side after that and his career is over. He also turned down PSG again 7-8 months back.
The Manchester City squad has not been full of world-historical talents during the time Guardiola has managed them, so people are going to need a better explanation for why he's won some many titles with them.
You don't think having the best group of players is an explanation for winning the league?
Coupled with him obviously being a very good manager.
Fergie took over the biggest club in the country, spent half a billion and broke the British transfer record seven times. I’ve said this already.
Some on here have tried to make out that Man United were a kind of small provincial club when Fergie took over, and it was his success that enabled them to spend all this money. That’s funny, because I can clearly remember his predecessor Ron Atkinson spending loads of money and also breaking the transfer record to sign Bryan Robson, a player that Fergie was extremely reliant on in his very early years when his team was not dominant (read Roy Keane’s first book on this, and his impression of the club when he first got there).
Fergie’s achievements are perfectly laudable without the need of spinning narratives to make them even more so.
Seems a bit of stretch. He went to the treble winners and couldn't win the CL with them yet he's do it with the Barcelona team he got beaten to the title by Jose with.
Didn't Mou fall out with his squad in following season? Think he was done in Madrid before November.
Bayern... Well, Pep never really enjoyed himself there and was thinking about quitting after his second season.
So he should turn down good jobs to take lesser ones to prove a point to internet people? Do you not see how stupid that sounds?
Thats like saying Joel Robuchan can't be the worlds best chef because he never achieved anything at McDonalds... its an incredibly stupid argument.
I don't know what you work at but that is not how the real world works.
Lets see does that logic apply here... CR7 only won CL's at United and Real. Himself and Messi are obviously not top footballers and worse than Deco and Derlei who won one at Porto (am I doing it right?)
I always thought he'd leave after 5 seasons but his power at City is absolute. Nowhere else will he be bigger than the club.
And he'd have taken the title back the next season. Joses disrupting, crying mental bullshit is only good for one year (or more recently 0 years). Pep left Barca because of inner club politics and not wanting to deal with the nonsense that comes with Barca. Didn't Tito cakewalk the league to take it back? You don't think Pep could have done the same... the level of bitterness on here is funny.
Well put.
And to counter that I pointed out that the club Fergie overhauled (Liverpool) spent more on players during his reign, so the notion that money was at the root of his success is false.
Are you choosing not to hear what I'm saying or is it not computing?
Ferguson spent less on his players than Liverpool. He won 13 leagues. They won none. They were starting from a miles better position(2 decades of domination). He largely spent money that came from his early success so his achievements were incredible.
Please take some time to consider these facts.
He's talking about the CL. You can't just assume a manager would have won 2 additional CLs staying at Barca when he couldn't managed one at treble winning Bayern.
The guy whose making those ridiculous claims sounds like the bitter. I'm just going by what happened.
League? Sure he'd have won it again at Barcelona. I mean, Messi himself ensures that. Having Pep would help.
Exactly. Once he does all that then we can talk.
Well that's convenient
Not really. But to be claimed as greatest of all time, he simply will be compared with the other greatest manger out there. And there were many great managers in the past who managed to took a decent/good side and turn them into great/dominant side, even at present time (Klopp with Liverpool), or in last 2 decades or so (Mourinho with Porto/Inter, Wenger with Arsenal etc). For Pep, his success has always been back up by oil money (City) or having best squad/players before he took over (Barca, Bayern). But for other great managers, in many cases their success were back up by building their own teams with limited resources, and some of them even started everything from "scratch" or work all the way up as underdogs (Fergie with Aberdeen/Man Utd), which are far more admirable. There's quite a distinctive difference in terms of how we define their legacy.
But lets say if Pep never has chance to work with weaker side in future, then how will be he will be judged as compared with other all time greats?
IMO, let's say with the help of these oil money, let's assume even winning 49 trophies in future (matching with Fergie) wouldn't be enough for Pep, then perhaps winning a lot lot more than that would put him in a stronger position? There's no definitive answer, but its about who has the greater edge when we are doing comparison. Right now, its fair to say Pep doesn't have the greater edge there.
Its the same reason why we always see Maradona always being compared with Pele for GOAT title back in past decades. Maradona clearly has his own edge/legacy of "single-handedly" winning WC with weaker side, being most talented player ever, and won things with underdogs Napoli in strongest/most competitive league ever in the world. While Pele, who doesn't have exactly the same edge/legacy has Maradona, has his own edge/legacy of winning "3 WC" with greatest Brazil side ever and scored "1000+ goals" in his career.
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Well, Flick's decided to leave them 6 months after he won CL there. One of the most successful coaches ever in Ancelotti was repeatedly disrespected there. Let's not act like only Pep had problems.
Who is pretending? You're being defensive that's all making a lot of excuses
What you are essentially saying is because Pep started at the top (which he didn't) he should be punished in these debates, it makes zero sense. Its like saying because Messi started at Barca he can't be the goat, he has to do it for Levante.
Its a ridiculous argument with no grounding in logic and also its not true as it is completely disregarding Pep taking a Barca B team tipped for the lower regions of the table and winning the title with them.
Maybe just maybe there is a reason that Pep was given the Barca job over Mourinho I might add on merit for his performance with Barca B, then there is a reason Bayern and not Roma wanted his services when leaving Barcelona and maybe there is a reason that when he left Bayern, City and not Everton were the club that came calling? There is a reason he has constantly had the pick of any club in the world since his Barca days. People act like he didn't earn those jobs.
Also you are completely moving the goalposts. Your original post was he has to do what Klopp did, so you completely imply he should leave a top job he earned on merit to take on a sleeping giant to prove a point. Its beyond ridiculous. I mean using that logic Ranieri > Sir Alex or Daglish or Zidane or Pep. Its makes zero sense. Maradona is remembered as one of the best players ever because he was one of the best players ever and would be with or without that world cup... same for Pele whose 1000 goal thing is nonsense.
So you don't think he could of won the CL at a club and with a team he won 2 CL's with, even though Luis Enrique won a CL with them a couple of years later? He had built the best club side ever seen, a side who beat probably Sir Alex greatest ever side in 2 finals (no slight on Sir Alex either) and you don't believe he'd have done it again with an added Neymar?
Do you just ignore what other people say to you for your own narrative? What is it you fail to understand?
Nobody is saying Pep isn't a great manager, but the 3 teams he has managed were already regarded the best teams in the country when he took over, and had recently won European cups and league's.
Sir Alex rebuilt Aberdeen and Manchester United from the ground up and spent within his means. (Like Klopp at Liverpool) what is it about this you fail to grasp?
Could of would of. He didn't do it with Bayern I'm not going randomly add CLs to his hypothetical count had he stayed at Barcelona. Enrique won treble, and that's the only CL they won't with MNS. We can't just assume Pep would have done as good a job as him. Seems unfair to other managers accomplishments when Pep was competing with him using a different team and unable to win it.