'Pep' Guardiola sack watch

amolbhatia50k said:
These questions get stupider by the minute.

Why would I have the same "energy" for the manager of Manchester fecking City as I do for that of my own club? And of course it makes a difference what your manager has achieved in the past - A) it defines their qualifies/pedigree and B) buys them faith as they have actually achieved big things for you and other wise in their career

For eg Klopp when he had that rubbish season with Dortmund was still wanted by all the tops. It was a bad year for a top class manager. The best Gary Neville could do after Valencia was punditry on MNF. Go figure.
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Yeah, I might be stupid, but have a look at your comments.

"Manutd hire managers who are finished" - I take it you are refering to LVG who just got to the final?
Or Jose who had just won the league 2 seasons before with Chelsea?

Klopp was wanted by top clubs?

Carlo Anthelotti was sacked in June 2015 - Klopp didnt get that job
Martino left Barca in 2014.

No doubt Klopp was and is a top manager, is there evidence that all top clubs wanted him?

Who said Gary Neville was a good manager?

So I have seen your posts about Pochettino, how is he a better fit than Ole. What has be achieved? A CL final? top 4?

Ole has achieved top 4. Di Matteo has won the CL....
 
Zehner said:
And still that team declined pretty quickly after he left. Barca was never the same ever since and alnost all his former players name him the best coach they've had.

I don't get why people are so negative these days. It seems everybody is a fraud unless they win things. In that case they're the real deal.
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This exactly is the reason or at least the one of the major reasons why he left Barca. He knew the team was declining.
 
PepG said:
@GameOn explained very well the Jose Part of this statement but the second part about Pep and England is just laughable. OK, may be in his first year Guardiola and his staff underestimated a bit the importance of the second balls in english football but after that Pep adjusted his team and won 2 titles in a row with a record breaking points and wins in a row and an unprecedented domestic treble! His failure to win the title against a very strong Liverpool side wich was close to take it from Pep the year before has nothing to do with the nature of the football played in England but with the quality of the opponent and the shortcomings of Guardiola's own side.
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Pep didnt adjust. He went out and spent a fortune on a squad with already world class stars that he still relys on and forced his style through. He literally relies on players who have already succeeded in England. It doesn't get more telling than that.
He over recycled the ball to tease sides out and tore them apart and then sides sat further back which took away a lot of the meaningful counters. Then sides learned to let them have the ball and only press in certain situations and come flying out with counters anyway. The mindset of press them high because Stones etc cant take it that fooled sides into coming out disappeared and now its at the point City dont even overly pass from the back anymore because they dont have to.
Now sides press the little cutback passing lanes they relied on for attacks around the box which leaves their roaming FB exposed so Pep has them in a more rigid structre. Hes now at a stalemate with his players playing in a safer formation to stop counters but is struggling more and more to sustain attacks or overload the wings like the good old days and Pep has not adjusted. Not even in the slightest. Theres a reason why he is obsessed with defenders at City and not at Bayern or Barca. Hes continually trying to solves the counter problem and he cannot do it.
Its why Dan James has his best games against him, why Vardy takes the piss time and time again.
 
No Messi, Xavi or Iniesta = No Champions League.

It's kind of no coincidence that Pep has never even got to a CL final never mind winning it, without that trio. Arguably the greatest trio in football history. 2 of whom won the Euro's twice and the WC, 3 tournament's in a row.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Nothing to do with this



It is 100% this. The media and a section of die hard Pepites. Thankfully there are less of them these days.
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Yeah. Anybody with a brain can happily accept that he's a very good manager and that his time at barca was his best
They were ridiculously dominant. Equally anybody with a brain can point to fair criticisms without being 'bitter' and suggest that no matter who had Messi between 2009 and 2012 would have won at least one CL if remotely competent. He was that good.

The fact that it's bordering on sacrilege among many to even criticise the guy or point to limitations and areas he should have done better all things considered, is probably the reason so many see him as divisive. Mourinho, pochettino, Zidane, and so many more get absurdly high levels of criticism from some, but guardiola worshippers get extra touchy
 
footballistic orgasm said:
This is not true though, everyone's been talking about how Messi's been dragging the team to la Liga titles since Neymar left, it's not just the past 18 months that their standard has started to drop. As an extremely dominant unit, that started in 2013 (same with the Spanish NT).



Don't you wonder why the biggest clubs (including united) all wanted him and were all willing to pay huge money to bring him to their team?
Not only the media declared him the best, other great coaches and great players (even those that don't like him personally) talk about how great of a coach he is, i guess they don't know what they're talking about right?

Big teams bring Pep in because they want their teams to win while playing a brand of defined expansive football within the first 2 years and that's what they get, and that brand of football requires technical players. Offcourse many other coaches can win the same titles, just not the same way. But the style of play also matters to the teams that hire him obviously.

Who are the superstars he inherited at City? How many City players were considered top 5 in the world in the various positions when Pep arrived? I count only KDB, who else? Pep made the team become dominant with his style of play.

He proved himself at his first job and from his first season, which brought him the different opportunities. That's what happens in every job, why should he refuse high ranking jobs just to keep proving himself at a lower level? That makes no sense.
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Who were the superstars at City?

They had Aguero, Silva, De Bruyne, Kompany and Sterling.

All were top class players in the league, and remain the best players he'd had in his time there.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Nothing to do with this



It is 100% this. The media and a section of die hard Pepites. Thankfully there are less of them these days.
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Yep, they've had to ease that down.
One because Klopp is their new favourite.

But he's not getting the criticism a Jose would be getting for some of their poor results.
 
Cloud7 said:
When was the last time the media declared him as the best manager ever? Probably when he was managing that Barcelona team and they looked unstoppable, maybe, but absolutely nowhere have I seen him called the best ever since then.
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Erm, when they won the league at a canter a couple of years ago?
Do you have that short a memory?
 
Sandikan said:
Who were the superstars at City?

They had Aguero, Silva, De Bruyne, Kompany and Sterling.

All were top class players in the league, and remain the best players he'd had in his time there.
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Sterling ? Seriously? The player that was beginning to be considered a flop for City and who just had a horrible euro campaign for England before playing under Pep? On a personal level, i still don't rate Sterling very highly.
Kompany was always injured and barely played, he also played little under Pep. The 2nd half of his last season was when he played a lot under Pep and that seems to be what's making some people try to rewrite history.
Aguero and Silva were not top 5 (in the world/europe not just premier league in their positions), especially Silva who often had the tendency of going missing in big games and Aguero never finished top scorer of the league and was being benched in the NT for Higuain. So like i said, just KDB. And City still won the league with 98 points with KDB barely featuring and Zinchenko playing as LB.

Pep's system made a lot of City players look much better than they actually are IMO. It's like some people look at the money paid for a player and then come to the conclusion that the player must be world-class, which makes no sense.

And when some talk about what Klopp has done with Liverpool in comparison, let's not forget that Klopp won nothing with them for 4 years until he bought the most expensive defender and GK, and Fabinho, while having a very good goal scorer in Salah and a very good technical player who was already doing well in the league before he joined Liverpool in Mané. And also changed his whole 1st team players (except for Henderson) since he joined the club. He didn't start winning with a bunch of nobodies either.
 
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footballistic orgasm said:
Sterling ? Seriously? The player that was beginning to be considered a flop for City and who just had a horrible euro campaign for England before playing under Pep? On a personal level, i still don't rate Sterling very highly.
Kompany was always injured and barely played, he also played little under Pep. The 2nd half of his last season was when he played a lot under Pep and that seems to be what's making some people try to rewrite history.
Aguero and Silva were not top 5 (in the world/europe not just premier league in their positions), especially Silva who often had the tendency of going missing in big games and Aguero never finished top scorer of the league and was being benched in the NT for Higuain. So like i said, just KDB. And City still won the league with 98 points with KDB barely featuring and Zinchenko playing as LB.

Pep's system made a lot of City players look much better than they actually are IMO. It's like some people look at the money paid for a player and then come to the conclusion that the player must be world-class, which makes no sense.

And when some talk about what Klopp has done with Liverpool in comparison, let's not forget that Klopp won nothing with them for 4 years until he bought the most expensive defender and GK, and Fabinho, while having a very good goal scorer in Salah and a very good technical player who was already doing well in the league before he joined Liverpool in Mané. And also changed his whole 1st team players (except for Henderson) since he joined the club. He didn't start winning with a bunch of nobodies either.
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Serious question, who were the strikers you'd have rated above Agüero and the attacking midfielders above Silva at that point? I mean, I'm a Bayern fan but I'd probably have no issues trading Lewa for Agüero back then, insane big game striker. Silva was maybe below Modric and very arguably KdB (who was already at City?), whom else? Kompany was also a top 5 center back and despite his injury, he was probably one of the most important players for their second title. Sterling definitely improved under Pep but he was the most expensive young player at the time, having had one bad season before, it wasn't like he was Daniel James. Dinho was also already one of the best in the league.

He is still one of the top managers in the world, no doubt about that, but many of his big money transfers have been abysmal and he is definitely struggling to replace Silva, Kompany and an aging Agüero or Dinho. Pool paid 140m for VVD (way overpriced back then for someone from Southampton) and Alisson. City is spending that much every transfer window on the already strongest squad in the league and they have spent by far the most money out of every single club in the world, gross or net. Criticism is undoubtedly not completely unfounded, don't you think?
 
JDoe said:
Serious question, who were the strikers you'd have rated above Agüero and the attacking midfielders above Silva at that point? I mean, I'm a Bayern fan but I'd probably have no issues trading Lewa for Agüero back then, insane big game striker. Silva was maybe below Modric and very arguably KdB (who was already at City?), whom else? Kompany was also a top 5 center back and despite his injury, he was probably one of the most important players for their second title. Sterling definitely improved under Pep but he was the most expensive young player at the time, having had one bad season before, it wasn't like he was Daniel James. Dinho was also already one of the best in the league.

He is still one of the top managers in the world, no doubt about that, but many of his big money transfers have been abysmal and he is definitely struggling to replace Silva, Kompany and an aging Agüero or Dinho. Pool paid 140m for VVD (way overpriced back then for someone from Southampton) and Alisson. City is spending that much every transfer window on the already strongest squad in the league and they have spent by far the most money out of every single club in the world, gross or net. Criticism is undoubtedly not completely unfounded, don't you think?
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Your last paragraph is assuming that Pep makes the decision on who the club buys, we don't know that (and i personally don't think it's the case, though i believe his opinion is taken into account). Every club has had to spend and like i said, Klopp didn't win anything with Liverpool untill VVD, Alisson and Fabinho arrived the same season, we're talking about 3 players that were very highly rated as the next best things when they arrived. City doesn't have the strongest squad in the league if you look at players individually.

Offcourse Pep is flawed just like everyone else (like when he overthinks tactics in CL). The problem with most of the criticism though is that they're mostly just emotional. Some from people who are just mad that others rate him as the best and because they don't agree, they criticize everything without taking context into account. Others, from people who think he shouldn't accept jobs at clubs with a lot of financial power that want to hire him and that he has to go and prove himself in lower rated clubs. But then again, if he isn't that good, why are most of the biggest clubs willing to hire him? Why do other great coaches and great players talk so highly of him and the way he makes his teams play? It's like at this point, the hate is just irrational...

Silva was a playmaker positioned often on the wing, so as far as playmakers go (positioned on the wings or in the middle), he was rated below Modric, Kroos, Iniesta, Cesc, Hazard, and offcourse KDB like you said. As for Aguero; Lewandowski, Zlatan Suarez, Kane, Benzema, Costa, were rated higher as of then..
And how can a player who barely played be a top 5 player/defender in his position? Yes he was influential in the 2nd half of his last season, i already said that.
Sterling had more than one average season and was beginning to be seen as a flop. He also wasn't a forward giving his team more than 10 goals per season before playing under Pep. His price tag had to do with his potential and also with him being English.

This City team (with all thoses players you listed) became a team feared to play against because of Guardiola's system. They were there before he arrived but definitely weren't as dominant as they became under Pep.
 
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Would still have them as title favourites tbh.

After bad second half v Leicester they're not actually been bad at all defensively, clean sheet v Arsenal and today and just one goal conceded v Leeds and West Ham. Guess we'll have to see what they're like v another top 6/7 team but Ruben Dias seems to have made a difference for them and Laporte is back.

Just missing that normal spark going forward with Aguero barely playing this season but I think they'll still crack 80 + points and that will probably be enough for 1st this season as Liverpool will be well down on their points average from last two seasons.
 
FootballHQ said:
Would still have them as title favourites tbh.

After bad second half v Leicester they're not actually been bad at all defensively, clean sheet v Arsenal and today and just one goal conceded v Leeds and West Ham. Guess we'll have to see what they're like v another top 6/7 team but Ruben Dias seems to have made a difference for them and Laporte is back.

Just missing that normal spark going forward with Aguero barely playing this season but I think they'll still crack 80 + points and that will probably be enough for 1st this season as Liverpool will be well down on their points average from last two seasons.
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Dias' been great so far. Very physical, good on the ball, no brain farts and mainly has leadership qualities.
 
footballistic orgasm said:
Your last paragraph is assuming that Pep makes the decision on who the club buys, we don't know that (and i personally don't think it's the case, though i believe his opinion is taken into account). Every club has had to spend and like i said, Klopp didn't win anything with Liverpool untill VVD, Alisson and Fabinho arrived the same season, we're talking about 3 players that were very highly rated as the next best things when they arrived. City doesn't have the strongest squad in the league if you look at players individually.

Offcourse Pep is flawed just like everyone else (like when he overthinks tactics in CL). The problem with most of the criticism though is that they're mostly just emotional. Some from people who are just mad that others rate him as the best and because they don't agree, they criticize everything without taking context into account. Others, from people who think he shouldn't accept jobs at clubs with a lot of financial power that want to hire him and that he has to go and prove himself in lower rated clubs. But then again, if he isn't that good, why are most of the biggest clubs willing to hire him? Why do other great coaches and great players talk so highly of him and the way he makes his teams play? It's like at this point, the hate is just irrational...

Silva was a playmaker positioned often on the wing, so as far as playmakers go (positioned on the wings or in the middle), he was rated below Modric, Kroos, Iniesta, Cesc, Hazard, and offcourse KDB like you said. As for Aguero; Lewandowski, Zlatan Suarez, Kane, Benzema, Costa, were rated higher as of then..
And how can a player who barely played be a top 5 player/defender in his position? Yes he was influential in the 2nd half of his last season, i already said that.
Sterling had more than one average season and was beginning to be seen as a flop. He also wasn't a forward giving his team more than 10 goals per season before playing under Pep. His price tag had to do with his potential and also with him being English.

This City team (with all thoses players you listed) became a team feared to play against because of Guardiola's system. They were there before he arrived but definitely weren't as dominant as they became under Pep.
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True - in the Premier League, for two seasons. Not in the Champions League though.
 
Samid said:
5 goals in 5 league games for the inventor of attacking and fluid football.
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Wins his game in hand and he's 2 points behind Liverpool who are putting up insane numbers. Can't win.. He plays crazy attacking football and loses on the counter occasionally (needs to be pragmatic), becomes more solid and stable in a turbulent season (terrible). Reality is he'll be in the top 2 end of the season and if the gap is the same after we go to Spurs next week, I'd still fancy him to win the league again.
 
He doesn't seem to be able to inspire them that much anymore. I don't understand the problem. They looked uninterested to win during second half despite their bad position in the table at the moment, and the fact they need the points far more than Liverpool

Foden on for only 5 minutes ? It's just really weird.
 
el3mel said:
He doesn't seem to be able to inspire them that much anymore. I don't understand the problem. They looked uninterested to win during second half despite their bad position in the table at the moment, and the fact they need the points far more than Liverpool

Foden on for only 5 minutes ? It's just really weird.
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City just lacks the type of player on the pitch, true leaders who push the team.
 
el3mel said:
He doesn't seem to be able to inspire them that much anymore. I don't understand the problem. They looked uninterested to win during second half despite their bad position in the table at the moment, and the fact they need the points far more than Liverpool

Foden on for only 5 minutes ? It's just really weird.
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Foden is being rightly benched because he's been poor since the Iceland incident. He was in the team at the start of the season and let his chance slip. Still too inconsistent.
 
The lack of intensity between this side and the one that stormed the league in 2018 is like night and day.
 
You talk about our problems, but theirs are high too.

No proper left back, a statue who doesn't offer much in Rodri. Foden should be the replacement for Silva, but is well off that level, so even more is on De Bruyne's shoulders.
Right wing is a problem. Mahrez was barely near it when they stormed the league the other year, and they're not quite sure who they fancy there.

Aguero on the way down, injured again. Jesus with a nice goal today, but surely isn't their long term starter there.

Centre back combo finally looks strong though, after countless 50m signings!
 
Sandikan said:
You talk about our problems, but theirs are high too.

No proper left back, a statue who doesn't offer much in Rodri. Foden should be the replacement for Silva, but is well off that level, so even more is on De Bruyne's shoulders.
Right wing is a problem. Mahrez was barely near it when they stormed the league the other year, and they're not quite sure who they fancy there.

Aguero on the way down, injured again. Jesus with a nice goal today, but surely isn't their long term starter there.

Centre back combo finally looks strong though, after countless 50m signings!
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I don't get where this comes from, his goals per minute ratio at City is very, very good. He moves well. Sure he's not Kun but because he's been second fiddle to him for so long people are really underrating him. I think he's easily a 20ish goal per season striker in our current team. He's no Kun but will be fitter to play more games and he's obviously well behind Kane but he's got good movement, good touch and a good finisher.

LB is definitely a problem as is crativity in midfield.
 
Guardiola crying about five subs is fecking bizarre. He used one today!
 
TMDaines said:
Guardiola crying about five subs is fecking bizarre. He used one today!
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He barely changes when the game is tight, or when the result is fine for him, but by a small(ish) margin. So yeah, in his case, 5 subs would only make sense in the case of batterings, but that barely happens these days, so his complaints are kind of rubbish.
 
Its crazy that after the amount of money he has spent, he will leave the next manager with a series of issues and holes in the first team nevermind the squad.

It’s really poor to be honest. No major trophy this season and he will have left behind an expensive, exhausted and unbalanced squad with little sell on value (outside of the first team) for a modest return, one which most top managers would fancy bettering with those resources.

The football might have been great to watch for a few years, but it definitely won’t have been worth the investment.
 
Losing Sane was a major blow. Torres doesnt have the explosive pace that Sane did. Sane has the ability to breakdown a deep defence. A top elite striker and a left back gonna be the priority for city next summer. Its difficult to replace the likes of aguero, sane, silva, kompany, toure. Dont think Guardiola has done a great job on that aspect. How you replace Aguero and with who is a very difficult question to answer. I'd say they need two strikers (replacement for jesus who has disappointed on most occasions hes started).

I also dont get why Bernardo Silva is on the bench so often when a season or two ago he was up there with KDB as Citys best player.
 
padr81 said:
I don't get where this comes from, his goals per minute ratio at City is very, very good. He moves well. Sure he's not Kun but because he's been second fiddle to him for so long people are really underrating him. I think he's easily a 20ish goal per season striker in our current team. He's no Kun but will be fitter to play more games and he's obviously well behind Kane but he's got good movement, good touch and a good finisher.

LB is definitely a problem as is crativity in midfield.
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People not watching games and going off of narratives.

Creativity in midfield is a given, you don't play with 2 8s anymore (and can't, Silva was magical and Fernandinho was essential to that setup). But it's still early days to see how City as a team figure out how to create chances like they used to.

dinostar77 said:
Losing Sane was a major blow. Torres doesnt have the explosive pace that Sane did. Sane has the ability to breakdown a deep defence. A top elite striker and a left back gonna be the priority for city next summer. Its difficult to replace the likes of aguero, sane, silva, kompany, toure. Dont think Guardiola has done a great job on that aspect. How you replace Aguero and with who is a very difficult question to answer. I'd say they need two strikers (replacement for jesus who has disappointed on most occasions hes started).

I also dont get why Bernardo Silva is on the bench so often when a season or two ago he was up there with KDB as Citys best player.
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Sane was great but he was inconsistent as feck. He was outplayed by Sterling and B. Silva at times. Jury still out on Torres but he's been one of City's brighter performers this season

@padr81 here's someone else who, despite the evidence, believes Jesus needs replacing.
 
padr81 said:
I don't get where this comes from, his goals per minute ratio at City is very, very good. He moves well. Sure he's not Kun but because he's been second fiddle to him for so long people are really underrating him. I think he's easily a 20ish goal per season striker in our current team. He's no Kun but will be fitter to play more games and he's obviously well behind Kane but he's got good movement, good touch and a good finisher.

LB is definitely a problem as is crativity in midfield.
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He doesnt do enough as a striker. He doesnt drag the defenders around enough. He is great as he is, a sidekick to genuine class attackers. Nothing more.
 
He still won battle against Klopp today. He is still "better" manager then Klopp.

Why does Klopp get away without any criticism? Because of 4 trophies in 5 seasons? But every time Guardiola lose points, he gets just that, criticism.
 
cyberman said:
He doesnt do enough as a striker. He doesnt drag the defenders around enough. He is great as he is, a sidekick to genuine class attackers. Nothing more.
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He moves and drags defeners loads more than Kun did/does. He lacks most of Sergio's other qualities. One of the most common things said about him is he's a pain in the arse because he doesn't ever stay still and his movement is good. He benched Firminio at the WC for that very reason (even if he did have a nightmare tourny).

He pops into midfield or the wings more too. The one plus he has over Sergio is his ability to drag defenders out of position.
 
90 + 5min said:
He still won battle against Klopp today. He is still "better" manager then Klopp.

Why does Klopp get away without any criticism? Because of 4 trophies in 5 seasons? But every time Guardiola lose points, he gets just that, criticism.
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I thought Klopp out thought him pregame and def got the best of the first half from it. Pep made the better choices during the game though.
 
padr81 said:
He moves and drags defeners loads more than Kun did/does. He lacks most of Sergio's other qualities. One of the most common things said about him is he's a pain in the arse because he doesn't ever stay still and his movement is good. He benched Firminio at the WC for that very reason (even if he did have a nightmare tourny).

He pops into midfield or the wings more too. The one plus he has over Sergio is his ability to drag defenders out of position.
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Maybe Im blind but I dont see it. He scores a goal when he has the chance but overall Im not a fan. I'd be comfortable if we were playing Jesus as a 9 quite frankly. I just dont see him as effective against low blocks.
If Jesus is the starter number 9 next season Ill be shocked, Ill be even more shocked if you do anything with him up top this year
 
90 + 5min said:
He still won battle against Klopp today. He is still "better" manager then Klopp.

Why does Klopp get away without any criticism? Because of 4 trophies in 5 seasons? But every time Guardiola lose points, he gets just that, criticism.
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Thats an easy one. It’s because Guardiola already had a far superior team to Klopp when he joined his club, and both his net spend and overall spend absolutely dwarf Klopp’s at Liverpool.

Not only did the latter manage to build a team and wrestle the league title away from City despite this deficit, he also won the Champions League on the way to doing so.
 
padr81 said:
He moves and drags defeners loads more than Kun did/does. He lacks most of Sergio's other qualities. One of the most common things said about him is he's a pain in the arse because he doesn't ever stay still and his movement is good. He benched Firminio at the WC for that very reason (even if he did have a nightmare tourny).

He pops into midfield or the wings more too. The one plus he has over Sergio is his ability to drag defenders out of position.
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Dragging defenders out of position and making them work is one thing, but having great movement is another I think.

Aguero kept defenders on their toes because he accelerated into space and made darting runs so well to get on to passes. He is a more intelligent attacker for me and far more predatory.

I think defenders would rather have games where they decide whether they should follow Jesus out of the wing or not, rather than react too slowly and have someone like Aguero punish you in seconds.

I think Aguero is a massive miss because he is just so predatory and his reactions and finishing make him a far more daunting prospect than Jesus.
 
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