Something about Pep seems to really draw out ire from a lot of our fans. You don't see it to the same extent with Zidane, Klopp or even Mourinho pre him being our manager. I think it probably stems from those two CL final losses.
'Pep' Guardiola sack watch
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Something about Pep seems to really draw out ire from a lot of our fans. You don't see it to the same extent with Zidane, Klopp or even Mourinho pre him being our manager. I think it probably stems from those two CL final losses.
And still that team declined pretty quickly after he left. Barca was never the same ever since and alnost all his former players name him the best coach they've had.
I don't get why people are so negative these days. It seems everybody is a fraud unless they win things. In that case they're the real deal.
Rijkaard started it.
Not sure if this has been asked yet but does Pep rate the players in his squad? I feel like maybe he thinks some of them aren’t good enough.
Yes, I've seen this too personally. Barca were admired somewhat amongst my United friend circle previously. Then I found a lot of them gloating about Chelsea's win over Barca in 2012, and I put it down to those CL losses back then.
The time Pep leaving is also (probably) the time Nagelsmann, Rose, and probably Favre, become available.
I can see Ole at United for at least for the next 2 seasons then hire Ancelotti (after he done quite well with Everton).
I can see Ole at United for at least for the next 2 seasons then hire Ancelotti (after he done quite well with Everton).
That's mostly it.
Would be just like us to miss out on the next batch of great managers.
They twice beat his points record in the league in the years after he left with unheralded managers and won the treble FFS. They've won 5 out of 7 La Liga titles since he left. This was in the years when the Spanish league was completely dominating European football. When they won the treble they won the European Cup by beating the champions of all the other top 4 leagues in the knockout stages. Probably the hardest kockout stages for any club in history. Some decline.
The truth is that now they're only just starting to really decline and that is because Messi is starting to decline.
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No it stems from the media declaring him as the best ever.
When he's always picked up the best squad in the league he's in, usually inheriting either all time greats,or all time best league players.
Mixed in with an inability to rebuild a team when the initial magic wears off.
At city he not only inherited an array of super stars but still spent league record amounts on top of that.
Clearly he has a very successful style though, and we've seen that just throwing money around isn't enough.
But i just don't believe he'd have done anywhere near as well here as at city as he wouldn't have inherited Aguero Kompany Sterling Silva and de Bruyne who were and still have been their best players.
Klopp doesn't get the same ire as in effect he's built more organically. His ability has brought him up a level each time.
Pep will always draw these views unless he picks up a moderate level team like Spurs or AC Milan and do magic with them.
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Agree with this completely! It's only the past 18 months or so where their standard has started to drop
United and Chelsea have as much spending power as City. And no, City wasn't "regularly" winning titles, also not with 100 points, nobody had done that before so let's not rewrite history. Mancini and Pellegrini won with City, but there's a reason why their names don't come up in any discussion concerning the best coaches ever. So no, they couldn't do what Pep did.
So the players were the only reason why that Barça team was so good? Well those players were there before (except for Busquets and Pedro who were in division 3), why weren't they considered the best ever? Or why weren't they playing the brand of football they played with Pep?
When was the last time the media declared him as the best manager ever? Probably when he was managing that Barcelona team and they looked unstoppable, maybe, but absolutely nowhere have I seen him called the best ever since then.
Is he one of the best managers ever? Absolutely. He assembled and led what is arguably the greatest club team ever. When his football is in full flow it’s by far the most entertaining of any manager in world football today.
You say he only goes to the very best teams as a point of criticism, but my counter to that is why does he need to go to a lower team to prove some kind of point? He’s clearly about playing football a certain way, and that can only be done at certain teams. Look at it from the other side, other teams have managed the same teams he did, and none of them played football that was as good as the quality of football he produced, even if he did fall on his own sword a few times due to his insistence in playing a certain way.
You can almost guarantee this is going to happen. Whenever Ole moves on, you just know that we’re not going to think outside the box and hire one of the next batch of great managers, but rather someone from the previous generation.
As Sandikan said, it's more a reaction to the media's over-the-top love for him. They basically rammed him down everyone's throats as some mythical and amazing manager that was completely reinventing the wheel, and basically ignored things when it didn't go his way. He definitely deserved plenty of praise but the fact they went overboard annoyed people, along with his own reactions when things go against him.
Barca hadn’t won anything for 2 seasons in a row and finished 18 points behind Madrid in the league when Guardiola took over.
He moved their 2 Star players on and changed half the starting XI. That was his team and their real dominance started there. 03-05 Barca under Rijkaard played some breathtaking football at times but they were still very much part of the pack instead of being a class above.
This is not true though, everyone's been talking about how Messi's been dragging the team to la Liga titles since Neymar left, it's not just the past 18 months that their standard has started to drop. As an extremely dominant unit, that started in 2013 (same with the Spanish NT).
Don't you wonder why the biggest clubs (including united) all wanted him and were all willing to pay huge money to bring him to their team?
Not only the media declared him the best, other great coaches and great players (even those that don't like him personally) talk about how great of a coach he is, i guess they don't know what they're talking about right?
Big teams bring Pep in because they want their teams to win while playing a brand of defined expansive football within the first 2 years and that's what they get, and that brand of football requires technical players. Offcourse many other coaches can win the same titles, just not the same way. But the style of play also matters to the teams that hire him obviously.
Who are the superstars he inherited at City? How many City players were considered top 5 in the world in the various positions when Pep arrived? I count only KDB, who else? Pep made the team become dominant with his style of play.
He proved himself at his first job and from his first season, which brought him the different opportunities. That's what happens in every job, why should he refuse high ranking jobs just to keep proving himself at a lower level? That makes no sense.
Now suddenly points records matter?
Thing is, Enrique's Barca won the CL because they were good enough to win. But with Pep's Barca you've got the feeling they're too good to lose. The task of a coach is to create collective that is more than the sum of it's parts. The synergies Pep created at Barca were unreal and not rivalled by Enrique's Barca although the latter featured Neymar und Suarez on top of Iniesta and Xavi. Pep was also instrumental for the development of Iniesta, Xavi, Messi, Busquets, Pique, Dani Alves and Pedro. Every manager that followed him profited greatly from his work since the system was so deeply integrated into the team that you'd always see the handwriting.
And on top of that Pep reproduced that to a lesser extent in other leagues. He was the first to reach those heights in La Liga, he's still holding the points record in the Bundesliga and the EPL. And he achieved that against Mourinho's Madrid, Klopp's Dortmund and Klopp's Liverpool.
Nothing to do with this
It is 100% this. The media and a section of die hard Pepites. Thankfully there are less of them these days.
It has plenty. There's definitely an anti Barce/Pep/Messi thing among United fans stemming from those losses. It's fine, they felt bloody awful.
Maybe for a few people, but I'm pretty sure it's not high on the list for most. Messi is more the Ronaldo factor for a lot of people. Barca and Pep is more the over-the-top media love and the holier-than-thou attitude they both have, combined with the hypocritical 'more than a club' thing for Barca.
I don't think I've ever come across a fan who thinks likes this, literally ever. If they had parked the bus and shithoused their way to a win, maybe there would be some of this but we were the second best team on two occassions - I don't think anyone on here would disagree.
Would be interested if there are any exmaples of this because, as said, I have genuinely never come across a United fan who feels that way
Sure, every club has a reason to be hated. At least successful ones. I'm sure we're hated for many similar reasons - arrogant, entitled etc
But there's definitely more hate towards them from United fans due to those losses (understandable) and Ronaldo (for some odd reason). Either way it's something that exists despite the existence of not rivalry between the club's which is interesting.
As if they'd tell you they felt that way. Come on. It's pretty evident that those defeats scarred plenty of us and then the whole Ronaldo Messi rivalry as if he actually was our player.I dunno about that. Speaking personally I felt we were battered in those games by the best club side we've seen. I didn't feel all that angry just beaten by the better team.
I don't harbour any bad feeling to them over those games. Pep I dislike more now than I did back then but that's just because he's a bit odd.
Now suddenly points records matter?
Thing is, Enrique's Barca won the CL because they were good enough to win. But with Pep's Barca you've got the feeling they're too good to lose. The task of a coach is to create collective that is more than the sum of it's parts. The synergies Pep created at Barca were unreal and not rivalled by Enrique's Barca although the latter featured Neymar und Suarez on top of Iniesta and Xavi. Pep was also instrumental for the development of Iniesta, Xavi, Messi, Busquets, Pique, Dani Alves and Pedro. Every manager that followed him profited greatly from his work since the system was so deeply integrated into the team that you'd always see the handwriting.
And on top of that Pep reproduced that to a lesser extent in other leagues. He was the first to reach those heights in La Liga, he's still holding the points record in the Bundesliga and the EPL. And he achieved that against Mourinho's Madrid, Klopp's Dortmund and Klopp's Liverpool.
Guardiola inherited the core of one of the greatest international teams in history and had the greatest player of all time on top of that. Not to mention the array of other top players on Barca's books at that time. Once the competition in La Liga started to grow, that Spanish core started to decline and he was dethroned he hightailed it a league where all the odds were stacked in his favour once again. When he finally joined a truly competitive league, even with a very stong hand he has been humbled.
He came to Manchester as a God but will leave as a mortal. He was brought in to make City the dominant force in European football and has failed at the task. City actually look as bad as they have done in 10 years at the moment. He needs to win the PL and CL double this season to leave with any dignity.
Great coach in the perfect conditions but a genius he is not.
Back to Pep, brilliant manager, probably the best of this generation, but his signings at City deserve more cricism. He's spent an incredible amount on their defense and it's still mediocre. That's a lot of money flushed down the toilet. While it's true that City's excesses leads to higher fees like with us, and they've won two titles in a row, that sort of spending shouldnt leave them with a defense that constantly makes mistakes. Not to mention that he's spent so much on his defense and DM that the attack hasn't been refreshed all that much and that is also down to him.
I'm just a bit lost with this mindset tbh. If anything Messi's performances against us are a big part of why there are United fans who think he's the GOAT. Ronaldo versus Messi isn't about club loyalty - it's simply who you think is better overall but if you can't separate the players from the clubs I guess that explains your answers.
It's actually good that you're a bit lost with that mindset. Your take is rooted in logic. But lets be honest here, biases are as much a part of football fans as logic is.
Yh of course, I guess I personally have no issue with being beaten when we're second best. Maybe if Messi had been at Liverpool I might feel differently!
Does Pep have the final say on signings? Or is it Txiki?
Maybe they work together, but I always assumed it was Txiki that took the lead on finding targets and acquiring said targets?
Well no, we obviously don’t have as much spending power as City
. And yes you were regularly winning titles before Pep.Mancini and Pellegrini's names won’t come up amongst the greats no, but it’s not Pep’s record with City which puts him up there now is it?
Now suddenly points records matter?
Thing is, Enrique's Barca won the CL because they were good enough to win. But with Pep's Barca you've got the feeling they're too good to lose. The task of a coach is to create collective that is more than the sum of it's parts. The synergies Pep created at Barca were unreal and not rivalled by Enrique's Barca although the latter featured Neymar und Suarez on top of Iniesta and Xavi. Pep was also instrumental for the development of Iniesta, Xavi, Messi, Busquets, Pique, Dani Alves and Pedro. Every manager that followed him profited greatly from his work since the system was so deeply integrated into the team that you'd always see the handwriting.
And on top of that Pep reproduced that to a lesser extent in other leagues. He was the first to reach those heights in La Liga, he's still holding the points record in the Bundesliga and the EPL. And he achieved that against Mourinho's Madrid, Klopp's Dortmund and Klopp's Liverpool.
This is probably the strongest argument against him. Klopp's Dortmund in particular had nowhere near the financial resources of Guardiola's Bayern, while Guardiola's City is probably the most free-spending squad in history, with a big trophy record that doesn't surpass that of his predecessors and with performers heavily weighted towards his predecessors' signings (despite the record-breaking spending during his reign). Zidane probably has a more impressive record in the big cups given the available resources.
Review their last season with Rijkaard season. They were in free fall when Pep got the job.
Pep spent a ton of money before getting attractive football. He is 8 points in 5 games.
He was 20 points off the winner.
Please have the same energy criticising other managers when you are criticising your own manager.
By your metric, he is crap manager no?
Thread should really be closed after this post.
Pep didnt deal with Liverpools run after Christmas very well when they both had 90 plus points. He went from free flowing football to playing to win and overly protect leads and has never been able to reverse it. They saw out the season but their shape became more rigid and sterile coupled with less imagination.
Madrids circus changed Jose forever and Englands direct football on the counter has done the same for Pep.
Please exert your brain a little more. Ole has already spent a ton of money anyway. Are you actually comparing Pep with Ole? What's their respective trophy haul in football? People in support of Ole seem to use the most woeful logic when bigging him up.
"Great manager A also started season poorly. No difference between the two and Ole."
"Great manager B also didn't win anything in 1st years. No difference between him and Ole".
Yes, so let's just ignore everything else about the respective managers just to conveniently put Ole on some padestal (or bring others down to his).
I am not comparing managers, I just want to see the same energy regardless of the manager.
So it is ok for a manager who has won alot to have less points than a manager who hasnt?
So are you saying you would be ok if we were in the relegation zone as long as it was a manager that has won many trophies?
He wont get sacked but I can see him going back to Barcelona at some point or indeed it wouldnt surprise me one bit if he stays with his current company of employment for years
It's really shocking to compate pre-Madrid Jose to post-Madrid Jose.
I actually still believe that his 2011/12 and 2012/13 Madrid sides were comfortably better than the CL winning sides under Zidane.
Those semifinal losses against Bayern and Dortmund and the circus that followed really broke Jose though.
These questions get stupider by the minute.
Why would I have the same "energy" for the manager of Manchester fecking City as I do for that of my own club? And of course it makes a difference what your manager has achieved in the past - A) it defines their qualifies/pedigree and B) buys them faith as they have actually achieved big things for you and other wise in their career
For eg Klopp when he had that rubbish season with Dortmund was still wanted by all the tops. It was a bad year for a top class manager. The best Gary Neville could do after Valencia was punditry on MNF. Go figure.
@GameOn explained very well the Jose Part of this statement but the second part about Pep and England is just laughable. OK, may be in his first year Guardiola and his staff underestimated a bit the importance of the second balls in english football but after that Pep adjusted his team and won 2 titles in a row with a record breaking points and wins in a row and an unprecedented domestic treble! His failure to win the title against a very strong Liverpool side wich was close to take it from Pep the year before has nothing to do with the nature of the football played in England but with the quality of the opponent and the shortcomings of Guardiola's own side.