'Pep' Guardiola sack watch

Mahrez has underwhelmed for City (would probably be better in a ball over the top team). Bernando had a torrid year last year for City and an amazing one the year before, but he's demonstrated brilliance in a Pep side.

Plus, this isn't weird, players go in and out of form in every side. Look at Bobby No Goals under Klopp.

I know he played well in patches.

Bobby has been the same player for 2/3 seasons though, he has never been a 20 goal a season striker. I think the difference is Klopp is alot more trusting.

Pep tinkers with his team too much, it confuses players, only Sterling and KDB know theyll play every game but even KDB has different positions every game.
 
But we've seen City play with a more traditional setup under Pep. I think it was the 17-18 season when Sane was on the left and Sterling was on the right. They hugged the wide lines and provided that typical ball across the 6 yard line to Aguero and Jesus every game. He plays inverted now primarily because up till this season, there's been no reliable wide option on the left with Mendy crocked and Sane sidelined/leaving. Mahrez can't play on the left either.

This idea of Pep being dogmatic to the point of insanity needs to die. One can argue that in the CL he is overly reactive to the the point of neutering his team's strengths. But he's always worked to maximize the capabilities of his players. Saying "he hasn't won the CL so he may need to find a better false 9 or convert to a more.traditional 9 setup" is overly reductionist

When he played sterling out wide on the opposite side did you find him better than he was as an inverted forward? You migh have.

I didnt really bring this up to talk about Pep being crap or him not getting the best out of Aguero.

It was more to do with what I see :

I see that Barcelona midfield of possession Xavi, iniesta, Busquests might not be exactly be the same at City but their possession is never an issue over the years with Silva, Fernandinho and De Bryune.

Many journalists have started to say that Pep's success is now due to Messi. Whilst I think that's unfair on Pep, I looked back during his Barcelona years and that same midfield and that same defence and even that same type of inverted forwards didnt cause the same type of fear when playing with Ibrahimovic instead of Messi.

Many of us thought it was just the player and put it behind us as Zlatan was not made for Barcelona or something.

Then we go to Bayern, same thing the possession is there, Lewandowski does well and score the goals but is he comparable to his current standard, is he comparable to the false 9 Messi formation of Barcelona?

Again people will say - well its Messi how could it be replicated but it hasnt been tried yet has it?

Then comes City. The guy didnt even want to try aguero at the start but he managed to work himself in and does really well but not comparable to his old self nor anything related to a season of that Barcelona team.

I'm just trying to see how Pep could get City to try and be like Barcelona again. Maybe stop with the inverted fullback stuff, maybe try a false 9 and see how it works. He hasnt struck a CL winning feat with a central striker in any of his clubs post Barcelona.

We saw this with Henry, Etoo, Villa who all got pushed out wide eventually, Zlatan, Lewandowski, Aguero and gabriel jesus.

The only one who sticks out as different is Messi not just due to his quality but the position he plays.

Possession football means that the team has most of the ball remember and when a false 9 ( your central striker) has the ball; they are in a 33% chance of dribbling and taking the defence in, 33% chance of taking a shot and 33% chance of making a game changing pass to a player like an inverted forward who finds themselves one on one.

Compare that to a central striker who has to be more predatory, has to be in the right area to predominantly finish his chances or lose possession then I think a false 9 player in Possession football is something that can be viewed as versatile but consistent with regards to possesion.
 
No, I do not think he did to Aguero or Lewandowski but there are players who have stagnated recently under pep.

Look at Mahrez, Bernado and the like who have been hit and miss for a year now.

Two players that would probably start most games at other top clubs.
Well, one can argue Mahrez is a big fish in a small pod type of player who probably fits counter-attacking teams more and Bernardo possibly overperformed for 15-16 months.
 
When he played sterling out wide on the opposite side did you find him better than he was as an inverted forward? You migh have.

I didnt really bring this up to talk about Pep being crap or him not getting the best out of Aguero.

It was more to do with what I see :

I see that Barcelona midfield of possession Xavi, iniesta, Busquests might not be exactly be the same at City but their possession is never an issue over the years with Silva, Fernandinho and De Bryune.

Many journalists have started to say that Pep's success is now due to Messi. Whilst I think that's unfair on Pep, I looked back during his Barcelona years and that same midfield and that same defence and even that same type of inverted forwards didnt cause the same type of fear when playing with Ibrahimovic instead of Messi.

Many of us thought it was just the player and put it behind us as Zlatan was not made for Barcelona or something.

Then we go to Bayern, same thing the possession is there, Lewandowski does well and score the goals but is he comparable to his current standard, is he comparable to the false 9 Messi formation of Barcelona?

Again people will say - well its Messi how could it be replicated but it hasnt been tried yet has it?

Then comes City. The guy didnt even want to try aguero at the start but he managed to work himself in and does really well but not comparable to his old self nor anything related to a season of that Barcelona team.

I'm just trying to see how Pep could get City to try and be like Barcelona again. Maybe stop with the inverted fullback stuff, maybe try a false 9 and see how it works. He hasnt struck a CL winning feat with a central striker in any of his clubs post Barcelona.

We saw this with Henry, Etoo, Villa who all got pushed out wide eventually, Zlatan, Lewandowski, Aguero and gabriel jesus.

The only one who sticks out as different is Messi not just due to his quality but the position he plays.

Possession football means that the team has most of the ball remember and when a false 9 ( your central striker) has the ball; they are in a 33% chance of dribbling and taking the defence in, 33% chance of taking a shot and 33% chance of making a game changing pass to a player like an inverted forward who finds themselves one on one.

Compare that to a central striker who has to be more predatory, has to be in the right area to predominantly finish his chances or lose possession then I think a false 9 player in Possession football is something that can be viewed as versatile but consistent with regards to possesion.

Yes, I thought he (and Sane) were at their best during that season in terms of general play. IIRC Sterling's numbers were better the following season.

Ah I understand where you are coming from now. I don't see City, or any other team he manages, ever replicating what he did with Barcelona. The personnel was just too different and unique with regards to possession play.

Keep in mind, earlier on, City were utilizing 5-3-2, with Mendy and Walker providing width, until Mendy got crocked. Delph and Zinchenko couldn't replicate Mendy going forward, but as midfielders they were able to play that inverted role, allowing De Bruyne and Silva to sit further up right behind the attack line.

So let's say he scraps that; no more inverted fullbacks. That could probably work if Foden becomes an undisputed fixture in their starting 11 and is a secondary option for moving the ball forward. Currently they only have De Bruyne as a starting fixture. Bernando Silva deputized well when KDB was out for a while, but can they be effective in the same team playing in midfield? Then who does that leave at the base of midfield? Rodri isn't Fernandinho.

Benefits of this approach? More defensive protection against counter attacks on the wing (City have improved on this aspect this season). Having 2 creative midfielders in midfield as opposed to 1 (Gundogan + Rodri is too safe IMO). Disadvantage: who provides the width in attack? Cancelo tends to drift inward when he plays on the left. Sterling also. It remains an open question as to what Torres can do.

Interesting conversation for sure.
 
Why is it weird?

My assessment of him is that, given the players and resources he had available, he did Ok at Barcelona (6/10) and underperformed in his two clubs after that.
Serious?

Barcelona (6/10 according to you) Fact: 4 seasons - 14 trophies. 3 La liga, 2 spanish cups, 1 spanish super cup, 2 champions league, 2 super cups, 1 world cup. 72% winning rate
Bayern Munchen (underperformed according to you) Fact: 3 seasons - 7 trophies. 3 Bundesliga, 2 german cup, 1 super cup, 1 world cup. 75% winning rate
Manchester City (underperformed according to you) Fact: 5 seasons - 8 trophies. 2 Premier League, 1 TheFA cup, 3 league cup, 2 community shield. 72% winning rate

So if that is underperforming I don't know what he could have done more. Whatshould he have done do get 10/10 in Barcelona?
 
His Barcelona team is regarded by most as the best team ever, so how can his performance with that team be rated as nothing more than a 6/10?
 
His Barcelona team is regarded by most as the best team ever, so how can his performance with that team be rated as nothing more than a 6/10?
I know right? That's such a ludicrous assertion. Yes, you could say "oh well, he had the most talented players at his disposal" but they were still shit hot.
 
Serious?

Barcelona (6/10 according to you) Fact: 4 seasons - 14 trophies. 3 La liga, 2 spanish cups, 1 spanish super cup, 2 champions league, 2 super cups, 1 world cup. 72% winning rate
Bayern Munchen (underperformed according to you) Fact: 3 seasons - 7 trophies. 3 Bundesliga, 2 german cup, 1 super cup, 1 world cup. 75% winning rate
Manchester City (underperformed according to you) Fact: 5 seasons - 8 trophies. 2 Premier League, 1 TheFA cup, 3 league cup, 2 community shield. 72% winning rate

So if that is underperforming I don't know what he could have done more. Whatshould he have done do get 10/10 in Barcelona?

With that team, he should have easily won all four La Ligas and another CL. That final season was especially poor with the way he lost to ten man Chelsea a summing up of all oh hia shortcomings.

Tin pot trophies I do not count.

His record of winning titles or in Europe at Bayern and City is no better than those who came before or after him.
 
With that team, he should have easily won all four La Ligas and another CL. That final season was especially poor with the way he lost to ten man Chelsea a summing up of all oh hia shortcomings.

Tin pot trophies I do not count.

His record of winning titles or in Europe at Bayern and City is no better than those who came before or after him.
You do understand that there are other teams?
 
You do understand that there are other teams?

Do you recall what the state of other powerhouses in Europe was at that time?

Also, what he had available was unprecedented. Midfield plus central defence of the reigning international superpower (Spain) plus arguably the GOAT as a part of his attack.

And even that he needed that referee to win one of his CLs.
 
Do you recall what the state of other powerhouses in Europe was at that time?

Also, what he had available was unprecedented. Midfield plus central defence of the reigning international superpower (Spain) plus arguably the GOAT as a part of his attack.

And even that he needed that referee to win one of his CLs.
I do recall and still think you are not living in reality. You really think all other teams were bad that he should have won everything, wich he pretty much did? Really?!

Tell me some other manager that have been as successfull in the same way as Guardiola. In so many clubs.

I'm actually intressted who you think was 10/10 or atleast better manager then him (more then 6/10)?
 
I do recall and still think you are not living in reality. You really think all other teams were bad that he should have won everything, wich he pretty much did? Really?!

Tell me some other manager that have been as successfull in the same way as Guardiola. In so many clubs.

I'm actually intressted who you think was 10/10 or atleast better manager then him (more then 6/10)?
I am afraid SAF is gonna be somewhere like 4/10 or something :D
 
I do recall and still think you are not living in reality. You really think all other teams were bad that he should have won everything, wich he pretty much did? Really?!

Tell me some other manager that have been as successfull in the same way as Guardiola. In so many clubs.

I'm actually intressted who you think was 10/10 or atleast better manager then him (more then 6/10)?

My list of better than him is too long.

8/10 and up 2000 onwards big club tenures only off the top of my head
SAF obviously
Mourinho at Porto and Inter.
Del Bosque
Ancelotti at Milan and probably Real
Benitez at Liverpool up to 2009
Klopp at Dortmund and Liverpool
Heykens at Bayern in 2013

Probably plenty I am forgetting.

Zidane obviously
 
Disgusting, please appreciate the fact that the best managers get the top jobs. What he made look easy was phenomenal work and new ideas, football we haven’t seen before, winning and scoring goals setting records. His Barca-side was the best ever, his City-side played football we have never seen in the Premier League. 100 points, it will probably never be replicated.

We can say a lot of things about the current state of City and perhaps Pep’s lack of burning desire after winning everything, but calling his former work a product of «just spending the most money and having the best players» is factually wrong, and highly insulting to the beautiful game. Especially as we ourselves have a 500M-team playing like it was worth a third of that - seldom do I watch football these days and think «wow» to myself... that happened a lot with Pep’s Barcelona.
 
Benitez at Liverpool better than Pep at Barca... oh my.
Well we all know who the new worst poster on Redcafe is...
 
City's squad really isn't that impressive given the money invested.

You look at their midfield/attack from when they were at their best:

Fernandinho
De Bruyne D.Silva
Sterling Aguero Sane

to what they have now:

Rodri Gundogan
Mahrez De Bruyne Sterling
Aguero

It's a bit of a drop off in quality isn't it? KDB and Sterling are still brilliant but the rest are a level or two below. Aguero is struggling with injuries and getting towards the latter end of his career now, Jesus might replace him but they're big shoes to fill. Bernardo Silva for whatever reason seems to be a complete shadow of the player he was a couple of years ago and the depth up top is now lacking. Sane was messed around, ok I don't know the ins and outs but the outcome was a brilliant player leaving the club, same with Sancho prior to that. They still don't really have a proper left back either. Pep got the absolute best out of the top players that were already there but he's not doing a great job of creating a 2nd team to take over from them.
 
Benitez at Liverpool better than Pep at Barca... oh my.
Well we all know who the new worst poster on Redcafe is...
Trying to understand the logic, what I got is

His points system is dependent on how many best players in the world you have in the team. If you win a league with the best players of the world, it doesn't count much. On the flip side, if you win a league with average players, you get more points.

So in other words, Ranieri winning league gets him 10/10 points while Pep winning league gets Pep 4/10 or something.

So Ranieri > Pep
 
Trying to understand the logic, what I got is

His points system is dependent on how many best players in the world you have in the team. If you win a league with the best players of the world, it doesn't count much. On the flip side, if you win a league with average players, you get more points.

So in other words, Ranieri winning league gets him 10/10 points while Pep winning league gets Pep 4/10 or something.

So Ranieri > Pep

My points system if dependent of what you got out of what you had at your disposal, which I thought was a standard way of judging a manager in any trade.
 
My list of better than him is too long.

8/10 and up 2000 onwards big club tenures only off the top of my head
SAF obviously
Mourinho at Porto and Inter.
Del Bosque
Ancelotti at Milan and probably Real
Benitez at Liverpool up to 2009
Klopp at Dortmund and Liverpool
Heykens at Bayern in 2013

Probably plenty I am forgetting.

Zidane obviously
I have a feeling that you don't like him on a personal level. I find your post even more strange after you mantiones some of those managers.

Just for fun.
Mourinho at Inter and Porto: 4 seasons - 12 trophies
Del Bosque at Real Madrid: 4 seasons - 8 trophies
Anchelotti at Milan: 8 seasons - 7 trophies
Benitez at Liverpool: 6 seasons - 4 trophies
Klopp Liverpool and Dortmund: 12 seasons - 9 trophies
Heykens at Bayern: 8 seasons - 9 trophies

To compare with Guardiola in Barcelona. 4 years - 14 trophies.
 
I have a feeling that you don't like him on a personal level. I find your post even more strange after you mantiones some of those managers.

Just for fun.
Mourinho at Inter and Porto: 4 seasons - 12 trophies
Del Bosque at Real Madrid: 4 seasons - 8 trophies
Anchelotti at Milan: 8 seasons - 7 trophies
Benitez at Liverpool: 6 seasons - 4 trophies
Klopp Liverpool and Dortmund: 12 seasons - 9 trophies
Heykens at Bayern: 8 seasons - 9 trophies

To compare with Guardiola in Barcelona. 4 years - 14 trophies.

The number of trophies as an absolute is irrelevant. I am not judging Mourinhos Inter vs Peps Barca I am judging Mourinho at Inter vs Pep at Barca.

I actually quite like him as a character.

I actually think this is about how success is judged in different cultures perhaps because I do not know one single person in real life who rates Pep as a manager and it was quite intriguing to me when I saw people on here do.
 
My list of better than him is too long.

8/10 and up 2000 onwards big club tenures only off the top of my head
SAF obviously
Mourinho at Porto and Inter.
Del Bosque
Ancelotti at Milan and probably Real
Benitez at Liverpool up to 2009
Klopp at Dortmund and Liverpool
Heykens at Bayern in 2013

Probably plenty I am forgetting.

Zidane obviously

Now we know you're WUM
 
The number of trophies as an absolute is irrelevant. I am not judging Mourinhos Inter vs Peps Barca I am judging Mourinho at Inter vs Pep at Barca.

I actually quite like him as a character.

I actually think this is about how success is judged in different cultures perhaps because I do not know one single person in real life who rates Pep as a manager and it was quite intriguing to me when I saw people on here do.
Oh my... It is hard to argue against someone who don't rate one of the absolute best managers last 10-15 years. Something that is easy to check. Trophies are not everything but if you want to judge top managers, trophies are one of the most important things. Otherwise we could argue that Sam Allerdyce is better manager then Jose Mourinho. Or that Scott Parker is better than Antonio Conte.
 
Disgusting, please appreciate the fact that the best managers get the top jobs. What he made look easy was phenomenal work and new ideas, football we haven’t seen before, winning and scoring goals setting records. His Barca-side was the best ever, his City-side played football we have never seen in the Premier League. 100 points, it will probably never be replicated.


His system working is predicated on having considerably better players than your opponents. All of your opponents. If I was running a club that had such players I would want him in charge.

However, the problem is, in my 23 years of watching football I never saw a side that was so superior to everyone else player for player as his Barcelona were. No, this is not because he made them look that way, Messi was considered GOAT material before him and all of their Spanish internationals were Euro winners before him.

Once his sides are not extremely superior his system comes crashing down. Thats why he had so mamy humiliating CL exits.

And regarding his league record, I know that winning the league is a big thing in England but for Barcelona and especially Bayern not as much.

At City, his record is 2 in 4 so far. City who won 2 in 5 before he took over and he won these after spending my country's GDP on fullbacks.
 
He’s a brilliant manager, that Barcelona side is one of the greatest ever playing some of the best football I’ve ever seen. And before ‘yeah but Barce’ they were nowhere near that level when he took over.

City have had arguably one of the greatest PL campaigns under him as well with their 100+ points season, they were consistently blowing teams away.

Biggest complement I can give is that the whole of football has had to adapt to his style of play.
 
Trying to understand the logic, what I got is

His points system is dependent on how many best players in the world you have in the team. If you win a league with the best players of the world, it doesn't count much. On the flip side, if you win a league with average players, you get more points.

So in other words, Ranieri winning league gets him 10/10 points while Pep winning league gets Pep 4/10 or something.

So Ranieri > Pep

Guardiola's record in the Premier League with Man City is no more impressive than that of the managers before him. Guardiola's record in the Champions League is no more impressive than that of the managers before him. Guardiola has spent much, much more than any other manager in the English league. If Guardiola deserves more credit, how much credit do the other managers deserve who have done as much with less resources? Particularly as these other managers built up the core of Guardiola's team.

Maybe another question to ask would be, Guardiola vs Pellegrini: who was better?
 
Why?

He won the CL with probably the worst winning squad in the last 20 years and then reached another final.

I actually agree he's overrated by many but I don't think Benitez is a fair counter.

Benitez won a CL and an FA cup -I'm really hoping you aren't counting things like the Super Cup and Community Shield FYI. This isn't to be sneered at but Liverpool were still a big team, he still spent a lot of money (comparatively) and so I can't see how you'd put him up with someone like Mou at Porto or Inter who are similar size teams in their leagues but won more important trophies.
 
I actually agree he's overrated by many but I don't think Benitez is a fair counter.

Benitez won a CL and an FA cup -I'm really hoping you aren't counting things like the Super Cup and Community Shield FYI. This isn't to be sneered at but Liverpool were still a big team, he still spent a lot of money (comparatively) and so I can't see how you'd put him up with someone like Mou at Porto or Inter who are similar size teams in their leagues but won more important trophies.

You are probably right. If Benitez left in 2007, my point would have been valid but his later years were really poor with no real output for the spend.
 
His system working is predicated on having considerably better players than your opponents. All of your opponents. If I was running a club that had such players I would want him in charge.

However, the problem is, in my 23 years of watching football I never saw a side that was so superior to everyone else player for player as his Barcelona were. No, this is not because he made them look that way, Messi was considered GOAT material before him and all of their Spanish internationals were Euro winners before him.

Once his sides are not extremely superior his system comes crashing down. Thats why he had so mamy humiliating CL exits.

And regarding his league record, I know that winning the league is a big thing in England but for Barcelona and especially Bayern not as much.

At City, his record is 2 in 4 so far. City who won 2 in 5 before he took over and he won these after spending my country's GDP on fullbacks.

The same Barcelona that finished 19 points behind Madrid the season before he arrived?
You say his system depends on having the best players, well then how many Barça players were considered top 5 in the world in their various positions when he arrived? I'll say Eto and Puyol, Xavi was a great talent but was about to leave Barça before Pep arrived and he wasn't yet the player he became after (even though he had a great euro campaign the summer before Pep arrived)...
Ronaldinho was a magical player but he was on a downward spiral for the past 2 seasons and Pep wanted to offload him immediately, the same goes for Deco. Messi's talent was visible for all to see but his first complet season was under Pep if I'm not mistaken, Iniesta also became a worldwide and established name that season too.
Saying that Barça team had the best players, is simply re-writing history.

The same thing at City, apart from KDB who was inarguably a top 5 in the world player in his position, who else? Aguero and Silva were definitely top 5 in the EPL, but in the world? Very debatable...
The truth is that he gave their team an identity and made them a team to afraid of due to his system and the system makes a lot of the city players much better than they actually are. Offcourse they won the league before him, but he clearly took them to another level and i can't even see how you could try to argue against that.
Not only did he win the most competitive league with them in an extremely stylish fashion, they did it breaking the 100 points record, and then won again with 98 points the season after.

He's made the most competitive league as a whole adapt to him and his style, if that isn't a sign of greatness, then i guess i don't know what being great looks like i guess...
 
I actually agree he's overrated by many but I don't think Benitez is a fair counter.

Benitez won a CL and an FA cup -I'm really hoping you aren't counting things like the Super Cup and Community Shield FYI. This isn't to be sneered at but Liverpool were still a big team, he still spent a lot of money (comparatively) and so I can't see how you'd put him up with someone like Mou at Porto or Inter who are similar size teams in their leagues but won more important trophies.
Benitez won two league titles and UEFA Cup with Valencia during his three years there. He was pretty good back in a day.
 
You are probably right. If Benitez left in 2007, my point would have been valid but his later years were really poor with no real output for the spend.
I actually think with the right owners in place, he could have won the league at Anfield. He was a very good manager who was shafted by our owners post 2007 and he was never really given a chance by them. It's no coincidence that Benitez took Liverpool to the number 1 ranked team in Europe during his tenure. He understandably gets a lot of stick on here but he will always be one of my favourite ever Liverpool managers