Exactly.
'Pep' Guardiola sack watch
- Thread starter Classical Mechanic
- Start date
Exactly.
You can talk down everything like that if you want to. "Pep's Barca wasn't that special they just passed it sideways some more". "Messi isn't all that special he just finishes a bit better." Etc...
I think their eye for detail, the micro management, the obsession with perfecting the execution of their ideas created a level of cohesion and fluidity that set both Klopp and Guardiola apart from their peers, at least initially. Klopp won his first title 99% thanks to his competitors not being able to deal with his team's quick transitions.
I also don't see how Pep's football is dying. PSG are coached by his biggest fan, Bayern's players have taken quick care of both coaches who deviated from his methods, they are now supposedly looking at two of his disciples for the post. Barca have strayed a bit under Valverde, but their squad is still built for dominant football. I think if anything we will be seeing both styles merge more and more in the future, especially since at some point teams just force you into a dominant role.
There have been small signs since earlier this year that Pep's tenure at City is entering its final stages. Rumours that his wife has gone back to Spain, presumably to look for somewhere to live, and that the club already as his replacement identified. One thing Pep has talked about is his disappointment that the fans don't share his view of UEFA/and winning the CL. Also the clubs financial situation in respect of their ongoing battling with UEFA, seemed to upset him.
Perhaps we are all just wishing he's moving on?
Perhaps we are all just wishing he's moving on?
What are peps and citys fans conflicting views on winning cl?
Pep thinks highly of CL, fans boo anthem and are ambivalent.
My nephew is a season ticket holder at City and he is always going on about it, he reckons most City fans are ambivalent about winning the CL; for example they would prefer to have won the PL three times on the spin this year! He also hates UEFA and he probably led the booing of the UEFA anthem at the Etihad a while back. Don't know how typical he is of City fans but he is a lifelong fan, followed them when they were down and almost out and I would call him a dyed-in-the-wool 'Blue'. He likes Pep, but my niece, his sister, also City fan, has never taken to Pep, although she will admit he has 'built a decent team'...! and we think reds fans are hard to please?
It will be very interesting to see what City does when he eventually leaves. Their rise to the status of a genuine top class team (yes, they lack the CL trophy for ultimate bragging rights - but over the last couple of seasons they have been just that) seems very much linked to him personally when you look at it from the outside.
And by that I mean that their entire strategy since the hiring of Begiristain seems to have revolved around getting Pep, and then - subsequently - providing him with the means to build a team. To what extent they're actually prepared to deal with him leaving is another matter altogether. Barca dealt with it easily enough - but they had Messi (and Iniesta, Xavi, Busquets), for one thing. And a foundation built over decades, including an outstanding academy, based on a particular "philosophy" hailing back to the days of Michels, for another.
City, by comparison, look like "Barca light" much more than "Barca Mk2": they've emulated, or tried to emulate, certain elements (nicking Begiristain, hiring Pep, investing heavily in their academy - but how many players have they actually produced who will prove top class first teamers in the future?), but have they actually put together a sustainable model? Money will only get you so far. As United fans, we know all about that.
And by that I mean that their entire strategy since the hiring of Begiristain seems to have revolved around getting Pep, and then - subsequently - providing him with the means to build a team. To what extent they're actually prepared to deal with him leaving is another matter altogether. Barca dealt with it easily enough - but they had Messi (and Iniesta, Xavi, Busquets), for one thing. And a foundation built over decades, including an outstanding academy, based on a particular "philosophy" hailing back to the days of Michels, for another.
City, by comparison, look like "Barca light" much more than "Barca Mk2": they've emulated, or tried to emulate, certain elements (nicking Begiristain, hiring Pep, investing heavily in their academy - but how many players have they actually produced who will prove top class first teamers in the future?), but have they actually put together a sustainable model? Money will only get you so far. As United fans, we know all about that.
I'd frame it as a counter-balance to nauseating hype.
The reason that modern managers are able to micro-analyse is because of modern technology, the reason that players can run so hard and press so hard is because of modern technology. It's a natural evolution and not something that sets them apart from their historical counterparts in any special way.
Strange really. For me winning the PL and CL goes hand in hand in showing the world that you are the best team in the world. Considering that Pep is considered the best coach in the world and assembled the most expensive team it's fair enough to expect a regular CL challenge.
I think they will be fine as long as they spend big next summer. It will be interesting to see how they build their team. Whether Pep would be here to do that is something I doubt.
I'm not making a statement about their "football IQ" compared to their predecessors, there were plenty of coaches before them who played remarkable football for their time and laid the ground work for what the game has become today.
My point is that Guardiola and Klopp were spearheading the current wave of football (r)evolution. They made the leap quicker and more successfully than their peers and until others catch/caught up their football is/was special.
Well, yes - but what's the definition of "fine"? They have a shitload of very good players already, and adding more on a similar level should mean just about anyone can come in and do alright. Or "fine". However, I doubt very much that Mancini or Pellegrini would've won two on the trot the last couple of seasons - not with the emergence of Klopp's Liverpool.
Of course, Klopp will face a backlash to some degree or other sooner or later - perhaps as soon as next season (if they win the league). So, nothing is set in stone.
But the question remains whether City have built - or are in the process of building - a lasting model, or whether they've spent a fortune on a more isolated "Pep project".
They may not be successful to such an extent but they won't also be finishing outside top 4. But the key aspect for that is they have to spend big and spend it wisely. Nothing is granted in football but as long as they plan well they will be doing good. As for Klopp/Pool, I think he will stay longer than Pep but I don't think what they are doing this season or what they did last season would be repeated. They would also need to strengthen their squad and hope their core players aka VVD, Salah and Mane stay fit.
Yeah, that's another interesting one. I hope - of course - that Liverpool have simply lucked out with Klopp and that they will struggle considerably once he leaves.
That is, rather than being able to build any kind of lengthy "domination" on the basis of the current success. The latter is the ultimate nightmare - but my hope is that the landscape of the PL simply won't allow for it. England is different to any of the other top domestic scenes.
The number of teams that are, potentially (with the right moves), there or thereabouts is incomparable to Spain, Italy or Germany. Look no further than Leicester. In terms of resources, they're not only behind Spurs, Arsenal and United (obviously) - but behind the likes of West Ham and Newcastle too (teams that could easily "pull a Leicester" based on money alone: they can afford to bring in both the manager and the players to do just that).
Well thats it, style of plays have cycle they don't essential die out in itself. Usually this comes down to also when the style comes into play and if its counterpart is there at the time or not.
In football we have 3 philosophy in terms of style of play:
1. Catenaccio - The school of Helenio Herrera and today largely used by managers like Mou, Simeone, Conte, Allegri with different variations.
2. Total Football - The school of Rinus Michel and today largely used by Pep, to an extent Tuchel and Sarri with different variations.
3. Counter attack/pressing - The school of Arrigo Sacchi and today Klopp and Jardim Monaco in the league winning season were variations of it.
Catenaccio:
Is largely based around defensive set up, its created to take the piss of opposing teams and making it difficult for them to break through and while watching them suffer and in hopes you can capitalize on them when there guards are down, low morales which will force mistakes.
This style of football requires players with high intensity, great defensive awareness and capabilities, mental strength to constantly be able to soak in pressure. They don't require to many flair, offensive type players, Herrera had Luis Suarez (Spanish), Mou at Chelsea had Drogba, at Inter had Sneijder and Milito, Simeone, Costa and Greizmann.
Total Football
This is the opposite of Catenaccio, its a full out attacking system that revolves around dominating and controlling the game. This is style that requires a lot of patients, it set up to create numeric superiority, while putting players in 1 v 1 situations.
This style requires highly intelligent and technically gifted players, that are also good at dribbling, as well as GK and CB that can play out from the back.
Counter Attack/Pressing
This is largely a mixture of both while it emphasis on both attacking is the main outlet. Sacchi Milan wasn't just good at attacking but his defense was one of the best of all times, even while Klopp offense is great defense is still a big part of his team too. This is a style that doesn't really require creative from midfield, hence neither Sacchi or Klopp have technically gifted midfield, both midfields were work horses. Its about pressing and winning the ball then go straight out attack, if you have to soak in pressure then hit them out the break quick.
This requires strong defensive core with workhorse players on both offense and defense, as well as a strong capable attacking group of players.
Now each of these style counter one another:
Total Football > Catenaccio
Catenaccio > Counter Attack/Pressing
Counter Attack/Pressing > Total Football
It doesn't mean they can't beat one another, but largely your best chances to win is by using the counter.
Total football with its gifted players, intelligent movement, numeric superiority, dribbles + putting attackers in a 1 v 1 situation becomes a big issue for Catenaccio base teams.
Catenaccio makes life difficult for counter attacking based teams, because they form blocks and give very little space to those counter attacking players and they themselves don't want possession and counter attacking teams aren't build to keep possession and dominate the game which impacts them.
Counter Attacker teams feast off the space high line, possession, total football type teams leave, this is were there counter attack is most effective and deadly to take these teams a part.
Some example:
Sacchi struggled domestically a lot due to the fact that Serie A was a very defensive oriented league, despite the fact he had one of the greatest squads in the history of the game, but when he meets his counter parts every day it provides life to be a bit more difficult domestically.
Klopp has been able to steamroll teams because he's yet to come up against a defensive juggernaut, with the decline of Atleti and Juve its time for counter attacking teams to rejoice.
Carlo Napoli also made life difficult for Klopp Pool when they shut up shop, despite Carlo not being defensive juggernaut type.
Pep record against defensive managers, Mou/Simeone/Allegri/Conte --- Wins 17 Losses 9 and some draws in between
Pep best CL campaign arguable since post Barca was his last season at Bayern when he landed Juve and Atleti (defensive teams) were he played Kimmich and Alaba as CB and lost an away goal rule.
Klopp despite having inferior squads compared to Pep has a better head to head, matter of fact I believe he's the only managers right now who has best Pep the most and with a postive W/L.
Pep CL run since post Barca, loss to RM on the counter, loss to Barcelona with MSN on the counter, loss to Monaco on the counter, loss to Pool on the counter, loss to Spurs once Kane went out this allowed Son and Moura to hit them on counter.
Pep up until this season went 3 games undefeated against Klopp and his teams average possession was around 50%, he gave up total football in order to beat him, which saw City win the league last season.
When Pep Barcelona came around we didn't have team like Klopp Dortmund/Pool, Jupp Bayern, Carlo/Zidane Madrid, etc that would've troubled them. Now we have counter attack football returning due to the fact defensive juggernaut have declined and who knows when next will see another Inter (09-10), Atelti (14-16), Juve (15-18).
Dying out was the wrong phrase admittedly. Coming to the end of its cycle as the dominant philosophy of the time would have been a better way to frame it.
Nice post by the way.
You really think winning with that squad is a greater accomplishment than what he did with City?
Every team he's ever managed has been the strongest and wealthiest in the league when he joined them. He took over the greatest Barca side of all time and was able to buy players like David Villa, Mascherano and Sanchez. Bayern were the reigning treble winners and he arguably took them backwards despite having the strongest squad in the league and easily the biggest cheque book. City were the best squad in the league when he arrived too, Kompany, Silva, KDB, Sterling, Aguero etc, all the pieces were already there and yet he's still spent over £500m there. They have £60m reserves ffs. Watch his next move, he'll continue his trajectory of taking over the strongest and richest team in the league, Juve or PSG, just watch.
You'll never see Guardiola taking on a project like Milan or Arsenal for example, he's a chequebook manager that only takes easy gigs. Complete and utter Pep Guardiola is my idol. He isn't a team builder, he's a monopoly manager, pass go and collect £200m to spend on fullbacks. You hear what this fraud was saying the other day? "We can't compete with Utd, Liverpool, Barca" etc, feck off you massive Pep Guardiola is my idol, you've got the highest net spend in Europe by about £200m.
Thoughts?
You'll never see Guardiola taking on a project like Milan or Arsenal for example, he's a chequebook manager that only takes easy gigs. Complete and utter Pep Guardiola is my idol. He isn't a team builder, he's a monopoly manager, pass go and collect £200m to spend on fullbacks. You hear what this fraud was saying the other day? "We can't compete with Utd, Liverpool, Barca" etc, feck off you massive Pep Guardiola is my idol, you've got the highest net spend in Europe by about £200m.
Thoughts?
Has to dope up his players too.
Why would anyone
a) Take a paycut
b) Take on a harder job with less chance of success
If you're basically good enough take on any job you want?
a) Take a paycut
b) Take on a harder job with less chance of success
If you're basically good enough take on any job you want?
Is he though? He achieved the bare minimum at Barca given the unbelievable squad they had, and underachieved at Bayern. Given the ridiculous amount of money he's spent at Stockport City he should've got them a CL by now, especially with all the piss easy draws they've had.
I don't like Klopp, but his work at Dortmund and Liverpool is far more impressive than anything the Pep Guardiola is my idol has done.
Project / legacy etc. A fecking challenge
He probably isn't even bald!
I know a skin cap when I see it!
I know a skin cap when I see it!
Probably did some himself, explains the rapid hair loss.
He is bald but he’s not a fraud. Have you seen his sides play the kind of football we all desire to see from ourselves? Yes he may need certain so and so players to play his style but to call him a fraud is absolutely ridiculous. He knows what he wants and has to do the first day he walks into a football club
This fraud has the temerity to complain about not having enough depth at centre back. How about instead of buying a £60m reserve right back, you buy a fecking centre back then slap head?
Poor guy only has £60m Laporte, £50m Stones, £35m Fernandinho & £30m Otamendi to rely on. How on earth will he cope??
Poor guy only has £60m Laporte, £50m Stones, £35m Fernandinho & £30m Otamendi to rely on. How on earth will he cope??
Did Pep sleep with your Mrs?
He's the type that would, but she's not into bald frauds thankfully.
He took over a Barcelona side who finished third, admittedly with a hugely talented and underperforming squad, and over the next years won a ridiculous amount, playing brilliant football and creating probably the best side most of us have ever seen (including bringing through players like Busquets and Pedro as well as developing others like Pique) and you consider that the bare minimum?
He didn't win the Champions League with Bayern, it's a cup competition and things can happen, but people who watch them will say the football they played was of extraordinary quality and clearly the Bayern players have missed the quality of his coaching and tactics since he left. He's also racked up the two highest points totals in the history of English football and dominated the cup competitions although it is fair to say that he's under achieved in Europe at City.
If he's not the best manager in the world then he's second behind Klopp and frankly your post is ridiculous.
Every successful manager is a chequebook manager. Klopp would not have been succesful with Liverpool had he not spent 75m on VVD, 65m on Allison, 35m on Salah, 40m on Fabinho. Yes he spent less than Pep, heck every other manager has spent less than Pep but that does not mean other managers are not spending to be successful.
One thing I do agree is Pep's philosophy requires top players. If you don't provide him with that he will not win this much trophies.
One thing I do agree is Pep's philosophy requires top players. If you don't provide him with that he will not win this much trophies.
He is a bloody good manager. He made Barca into world beaters and not the other way around. He was helped by having Messi, but he improved those players a lot and won two CL titles.
In Bayern he didn't do that great in CL, but he totally dominated the league. Other managers have done that too so not super impressive.
He has done a great job at City too. His transfers have maybe not been amazing, but he has helped further develop Sterling and KDB as world beaters. Won everything apart from CL last season which is a great even if he got helped by easy draws.
I think his biggest flaw is making good transfers and improving the defense of his sides. Although it is clear that he is improving what he got and make his team play very good attacking football as a team.
In Bayern he didn't do that great in CL, but he totally dominated the league. Other managers have done that too so not super impressive.
He has done a great job at City too. His transfers have maybe not been amazing, but he has helped further develop Sterling and KDB as world beaters. Won everything apart from CL last season which is a great even if he got helped by easy draws.
I think his biggest flaw is making good transfers and improving the defense of his sides. Although it is clear that he is improving what he got and make his team play very good attacking football as a team.
Pep comes to my flat and shags my roommate for 90 seconds. I play Russian music to put him off but it doesn't work.
Am I in the wrong?
Am I in the wrong?
He is not a fraud, frauds can't collect 199 Premier League points in 2 seasons. But yes, he is kinda unproven still. Everything he did at Barca and Bayern could have been achieved by probably 10 other coaches who were active at the time as well (del Bosque won WC and EC with the same players minus Messi and he is a dinsosaur coach at this point). Dominating domestically with City and all the spending is very good but not a historic achievement either, despite 100 points.
The problem is always with his cult followers bigging him up to be "mastermind behind Germany's World Cup win" and stuff like that. Pep is still a great, young coach, despite being a very weird character with all his fake praise for everyone and fake humility.
The problem is always with his cult followers bigging him up to be "mastermind behind Germany's World Cup win" and stuff like that. Pep is still a great, young coach, despite being a very weird character with all his fake praise for everyone and fake humility.
Interesting thread and a very novel take I have to admit.
Exactly. Until he does something in the CL with City he's a failure when you consider the ridiculous amounts of cash they've flashed. They have £60m reserves for crying out loud. Their second string would probably finish top 4. Any good manager could do what he's done.
Look at their CL draws the last 3 years, they were gifted a route to the final three times and went out to Monaco, Liverpool (when they were shit) and Tottenham.
Barca weren't that amazing when he took over. He probably did well to get extra year out of likes of Deco and Eto'o as they could've easily been sold with Ronaldinho. Of course Messi becoming superhuman helped and perhaps good timing also with Xavi and Iniesta getting extra confidence from Euro 2008 but Barca had declined a bit after their 2006 CL win.
I do think at Bayern not getting to a CL final was a disappointment and I would question his tactics in the semi final games. Can always remember Real Madrid destroying the high Bayern backline in one of them.
I do think at Bayern not getting to a CL final was a disappointment and I would question his tactics in the semi final games. Can always remember Real Madrid destroying the high Bayern backline in one of them.
This old chestnut.
Well he's certainly had a very fruitful career for a fraud.
Well he's certainly had a very fruitful career for a fraud.
Nothing wrong with being bald pal!
My perception is he’s a very good manager but needs very specific parameters to be successful.
When he has all the specifics the football can be unbelievable and dominant. But I just can’t rank him above other great managers.
Messi at Barcelona
Took over Bayern after they won a treble playing incredibly well in the Champions League.
Took over a very strong City side that had been set up for him over 2 years and it still meant he had to spend £500m before the team was playing as it should.
And he’s comfortably winning the FA cup and League cup because his second side is just ridiculous. He has reserve players costing over £50m playing against Oxford United.
I am also not a massive fan of his possession style. I would much rather United played like Klopp’s Liverpool than Pep’s City.
When he has all the specifics the football can be unbelievable and dominant. But I just can’t rank him above other great managers.
Messi at Barcelona
Took over Bayern after they won a treble playing incredibly well in the Champions League.
Took over a very strong City side that had been set up for him over 2 years and it still meant he had to spend £500m before the team was playing as it should.
And he’s comfortably winning the FA cup and League cup because his second side is just ridiculous. He has reserve players costing over £50m playing against Oxford United.
I am also not a massive fan of his possession style. I would much rather United played like Klopp’s Liverpool than Pep’s City.
Another ex-City doctor got done for doping today...