Paul Pogba's mentality...
- Thread starter Rhyme Animal
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At worst he has been our third or fourth best player this season. But, every disappointing result the knives are back out.
Pogba has made FIFA team of the Year already.
Partially agree. The transfer fee was the kind of fee one would pay for a product very near to finish. And he is talked among top 10-20 players of the world (by fans and media). If we all agree that he is not anywhere near the top players "yet" (which implies we cut down on expecting him to be awesome 85-90% of the time), then nobody would have an issue I guess.
Again, I am not arguing that he is not a top player. So don't ask me for a list of players who are better than him or such things. But merely pointing out why he is getting more flak than other players.
I think we all agree he is definitely in the top 10-20 players in the world. But many fans seem to expect him to be in the top 3. Which is just too unrealistic. Such expectations will only cause him to feel more pressured and it could stunt his development and growth. For example if the media starts writing about how he is a flop or waste of money etc, based on the chatter they pick up from fans websites and forums, it would not do him any good.
Great post. Seriously you have really made me think with that post and I guess the main thought is around how a CM matures later. I agree CM's do tend to mature later. The only problem the club thought we were getting a much more mature CM from Juve, I would argue even Jose thought this. I've yet to see real maturity in his game. Which is disappointing for a guy his age and with his experience (Serie A winner, CL finalist).
There's nothing wrong with his mentality, he has elite mentality. One of the problem is that he's adjusting to a new role, similar to what happened to him at Juve last season. This United team doesn't have enough genuine match winners & he doesn't have the kind of classy CM partners he had at Juventus, football is not black and white, just because you cost 89m, then you'll just come into a team that has struggled for 4 yrs and everything starts working smoothly, honestly, some of you don't understand just how complicated these things are.
Another thing with Pogba is Jose Mourinho. Maybe this is just me, but I don't think Jose knows for sure what he wants to do with Pogba, and even against Bournemouth when he lost his head and was hoofing it, what stopped Jose from giving him specific instructions on what to do? Jose just stood at the touchline and watch him do it for 45 minutes, how about a rollicking, a talking to etc. Maybe he's giving him freedom to make things happen, but you do need to give players specific instructions when they're losing their way. And the obsession with 4-2-3-1, I'm sorry, this formation is never going to get the best out of Pogba, even though he can still do it at a good level.
The third is Pogba himself, always caught in two minds, there's an indecision about his game that he needs to sort out. The best central midfielders in the game know what they'll do before they receive the ball, it's something he has not mastered though he did that quite well at Juve, he'll need to improve on this and also on his general awareness. So, nothing wrong with mentality, application just has to be better, a top player by every standard and I'm very happy we have him, we'll be calling him world class if he was playing at Real Madrid.
Another thing with Pogba is Jose Mourinho. Maybe this is just me, but I don't think Jose knows for sure what he wants to do with Pogba, and even against Bournemouth when he lost his head and was hoofing it, what stopped Jose from giving him specific instructions on what to do? Jose just stood at the touchline and watch him do it for 45 minutes, how about a rollicking, a talking to etc. Maybe he's giving him freedom to make things happen, but you do need to give players specific instructions when they're losing their way. And the obsession with 4-2-3-1, I'm sorry, this formation is never going to get the best out of Pogba, even though he can still do it at a good level.
The third is Pogba himself, always caught in two minds, there's an indecision about his game that he needs to sort out. The best central midfielders in the game know what they'll do before they receive the ball, it's something he has not mastered though he did that quite well at Juve, he'll need to improve on this and also on his general awareness. So, nothing wrong with mentality, application just has to be better, a top player by every standard and I'm very happy we have him, we'll be calling him world class if he was playing at Real Madrid.
Think of the world class players 89m can get you, now realise we have this clown instead.
You're being wilfully feline. Players with a sense of humour are always the first to get their mentality questioned. On the contrary, I would question players without a sense of humour, by which I mean to question their seriousness. There is something about Pogs that is like Ballotelli but without the need to express himself with fire. But he nine times the footballer and not actually immature. I hate the fact that we spent 89 million on a former player but he has to be made to work. if he doesn't, it's not because of his mentality. It would be for very similar footballing reasons that Veron couldn't quite do it in English football.
he is allowed, why not..that's actually what he is doing almost all the time.
which is natural. He is appointed a leader and a star against all odds and he likes it, so he needs to put extra effort to prove he is. Someone mentioned it's not fair to criticize him because of the price tag but due to that fact he most probably earns a higher salary and should realize for this money MU could haмe bought 2 very decent players. Some responsibility, isn't ?
Sell fergi sack goggs
I think Pogba's problem is that he represents something bigger than him.
Any AMC would struggle without a top quality defensive midfielder at his side.
What do you mean?
Air shots in the box when it matters most...?
I was absolutely gutted when he scuffed his shot towards the end of the Bournemouth game.
Actually made me feel a tad sick.
Actually made me feel a tad sick.
I'm not worried by his mentality. Its not like he's not bothered when he misses a chance. You've seen the reactions people, he knows he should be doing better.
Is anyone on here able to shed some light on what Pogba is asked to do? What is his role in the team (I know this may differ depending on formations).
To me, I see a player who struggle, not only because of himself, but also because it doesn't seem like he knows exactly what he is supposed to do, and if that's the case it's also a coaching issue.
To me, I see a player who struggle, not only because of himself, but also because it doesn't seem like he knows exactly what he is supposed to do, and if that's the case it's also a coaching issue.
I think Mourinho sees him as an enhancer, wild card. He's not tied down into a defined traditional role which would require him throwing away some of his attributes (he has everything & potential at good level). It's like a Seedorf's role in Milan side, but Pogba's potential indicates he can be a better one. Problem the other parts of the team is not all that when getting enhanced.
Some people forget that Pogba is still 23 years old. That’s strange considering that the some people who criticize Pogba’s lack of discipline tend to give a pass to a 27 year old Smalling who ‘would do well’ if he’s nannied by an organizer or a Vidic
Anyway let’s return to Pogba. The Frenchman is a beast. He’s strong, he’s technically gifted and he’s got a great shot and pass in him. Unfortunately like most young players whose gifted with such a wide array of skills he does lack good judgement. At Juventus they always made sure to play him alongside more defensive minded world class players like Pirlo, Marchisio and Vidal, ie players who would do the defensive work and keep him in line. That’s hardly surprising. Keane was instrumental in Scholes development, Deschamps did the same with Zidane while Gattuso used to run like a mad man around Pirlo, closing the gaps and allowing him to focus on his game. Not to forget that Pogba is used to the Serie A. In Italy football is more technical, defences tend to be more organized and there’s more time for a midfielder to think.
I think that a Keano/Incey type of DM is the single most important signing this club can do. It would strengthen the team's spine by providing cover for defence and he's stabilize the midfield. A top quality DM would allow our attacking minded players to focus more on their game and that will improve our goal tally. We do have goalscorers (Mata, Ibra, Martial, Mkhitaryan etc) and they will score goals if they can focus on their game
So basically he has no defined role and the only reason he isn't playing well is everybody else's fault? Right now the comparison with Seedorf ain't looking too hot.
That is precisely why I am worried about his mentality.
Pogba clearly cares too much. I think people get sucked in by the dancing and dabbing. To me its all a front. I would not be surprised if Pogba was actually a little bit shy.
People talk about Pogba dallying on the ball, taking too many touches, dribbling when he should pass. I agree he does all these things. I think he does them because he's nervous though. When you are nervous you hesitate, you freeze. That, to me, would explain some of the ball hogging. He may be afraid to do something wrong, so he does what comes naturally: tricks and flicks.
The weight of expectation is big, the price tag makes it big we can't pretend it doesn't. I think Pogba is just above keeping his head above water with the expectations on his shoulders. He's a kid and I don't care if people say he's 24. 24 is not mature in any walk of life, and I think that goes double for footballers who live in a bubble from like 14 years old.
I am not making excuses for him, I am just trying to understand, and I think he's still three maybe four years away from being an £89 million player.
His job is to create goal scoring chances and he is creating plenty of chances. If only our striker were clinical he would have assists in double figures.
Tbf CAF should be avoided for couple of days after match results as most of the opinions are always at extreme levels. This season Pogba showed how good his passing is from deep and every game he creates so many good scoring chances. Such a shame our conversion rate is so poor.
Pogba is guilty of it too, he fluffed some very good chances.
Why lie?
As for the posts claiming Pogba has yet to show any maturity on the field, how about just a couple weeks ago where he was bought on to win usthe game against Blackburn, which he did by setting Ibra up for the winner? Or when we were losing against Boro around Christmas; Pogba dropped deep to orchestrate the play as we had no midfield at the end, which eventually led to him opening up the defence for the equaliser and scoring the winner a couple minutes later. There was also the game against Palace where he kept a cool head in the final minutes to shrug off Cabaye and slip Ibra in for the winner in the final minutes.
It's amazing how short some peoples memory is; of course he's inconsistent at times and shows flashes of immaturity but the way some people are talking about him, you'd think he's not taken out midfield up several notches and he's a disposable player.
Look at my other post in same thread to see that I call him out for being inexperienced & losing his head making thing worse... It's his problem he would need to solve with time. I am not blaming other players for his short coming. I am saying that for the team: the base ( other players in the system) is not all that to get the enhance he can offer. Even in his bad game, he didn't hide, shy away from getting involved. It may highlight his bad game, but at the same time his instinct/ raw talent didn't go missing: still create chances, in good position to miss chance, make shite decision (having a the sense to be in the right position is good base to build on)...
Zlatan happened to be the one who benefited most from Pogba, which is no surprise with him experienced in timing the run to meet Pogba's passing. The understanding between those two is good. So if other players can step up too: improve the base, Pogba has big multiplier power in him to enhance it. That's what I think Mourinho is trying to do with Pogba with all the freedom he's afforded.
Fitting Pogba into a defined traditional role should only be last resort in case one gives up on increasing the base & turn to Pogba asking him to become the base for other enhancer.
Edit: I said "not defined traditional role", not "undefined role". Big difference. I can't find a term to described Seedorf's role at Milan, so I went with this enhancer role. In game, it can be close to a b2b role, but more expansive (like Iniesta role in midfield 3) & demanding (being in scoring position like a no 10; defending set piece & running the length of the field to counter attack like a forward should; still be in position as a part of midfield 2) while not as restrictive in term assigned zone for the player position in.
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Pogba been underwhelming. For many reasons but he isn't a bad player. There are factors people need to consider.
1. Pogba took a step backwards by choosing to leave Juventus to back to United. (Deluded people will disagree but it's a fact Juve were in a better position with Pogba and are probably still better than us at moment.)
2. He left a team with arguably one of the best defences in Europe to play with Jones & Smalling.
3. He was used at Juve in a 4-3-3 system where he didn't have as much responsibility to track back and defend. It allowed him more freedom.
Pogba at Utd is being suffocated because he is being asked to operate in a two man midfield. He can't do it. He doesn't have the discipline. For me he is wasted playing as deep as he is because he tries to force the issue and he can't affect the game in or around the penalty area.
Which brings me back to a question I asked during the summer why did we sign him if we didn't intend to use him properly?
He hasn't been awful he has played well at times missed a lot of goals hitting the post/crossbar. He is playing in a role where you're expected to control the game. He is not naturally suited to his role nor do I think he can learn it.
When he plays in a two man midfield he takes too many touches, hangs on to the ball for far too long killing forward runs and counters. We need someone who can get the ball pass and move. He doesn't have the ability to drive us forward he is in fact killing us going forward by trying too hard and not simplifying his game. He needs to pick up the ball and release it early get it out of his feet. With Ibrahimovic he feels the need to get the ball and always look for that ball over the top. It's almost as if he thinks that's the only route.
There is a serious lack of footballing intelligence when you look at how we play at home. There is always one touch too many, a bad shot straight at the keeper (making them look like world beaters).
We can question his mentality but the fact is this isn't the Pogba we saw at Juventus. We obviously need to strengthen are attack, midfield and defence but I don't see him improving in the current system.
If we want him to thrive we need play to his strengths but it seems we are only intent on setting up to play with Ibrahimovic at the moment. As good as he has been it's enough to get us into the top 4. We need to consider plan B.
Ibrahimovic playing every second of every game has lead to an over reliance. We should've given Rashford more chances up front. Now Ibrahimovic has a 3 match ban it's going to be difficult for Rashford because he isn't the same player as last season.
1. Pogba took a step backwards by choosing to leave Juventus to back to United. (Deluded people will disagree but it's a fact Juve were in a better position with Pogba and are probably still better than us at moment.)
2. He left a team with arguably one of the best defences in Europe to play with Jones & Smalling.
3. He was used at Juve in a 4-3-3 system where he didn't have as much responsibility to track back and defend. It allowed him more freedom.
Pogba at Utd is being suffocated because he is being asked to operate in a two man midfield. He can't do it. He doesn't have the discipline. For me he is wasted playing as deep as he is because he tries to force the issue and he can't affect the game in or around the penalty area.
Which brings me back to a question I asked during the summer why did we sign him if we didn't intend to use him properly?
He hasn't been awful he has played well at times missed a lot of goals hitting the post/crossbar. He is playing in a role where you're expected to control the game. He is not naturally suited to his role nor do I think he can learn it.
When he plays in a two man midfield he takes too many touches, hangs on to the ball for far too long killing forward runs and counters. We need someone who can get the ball pass and move. He doesn't have the ability to drive us forward he is in fact killing us going forward by trying too hard and not simplifying his game. He needs to pick up the ball and release it early get it out of his feet. With Ibrahimovic he feels the need to get the ball and always look for that ball over the top. It's almost as if he thinks that's the only route.
There is a serious lack of footballing intelligence when you look at how we play at home. There is always one touch too many, a bad shot straight at the keeper (making them look like world beaters).
We can question his mentality but the fact is this isn't the Pogba we saw at Juventus. We obviously need to strengthen are attack, midfield and defence but I don't see him improving in the current system.
If we want him to thrive we need play to his strengths but it seems we are only intent on setting up to play with Ibrahimovic at the moment. As good as he has been it's enough to get us into the top 4. We need to consider plan B.
Ibrahimovic playing every second of every game has lead to an over reliance. We should've given Rashford more chances up front. Now Ibrahimovic has a 3 match ban it's going to be difficult for Rashford because he isn't the same player as last season.
Agree with this.
the thing i have liked is even when hes had bad games hes still always wanted to get on the ball, he never hides, think when hes having a bad game rather then keeping it simple hes trys to do a bit much, takes an extra touch or take an extra player on, should always be played in a 3 for me, bit of a liabilty in a 2 just now. he could easily have double figures on goals as well, between the chances he's missed in open play and the amount of times hes hit the woodwork, same with assits if the chances were taken he created.
He's got loads of pressure on him and he hasn't been playing his best individually (the team hasn't been performing that well either). His mentality has to be all over the place. This season will not decide his future career so why get all over his back and add more pressure. He didn't choose the transfer fee. Don't judge him on half a season, at a "new" club with a new manager and "new" teammates.
With little to no big moments nor tournaments at European or International level.
I would take that with a pinch of salt. Its part of the reason expectations were too high for him. David Luiz at PSG made that list and they regularly got ripped to shreds outside of France.
Petit said that people keep saying Pogba is World Class yet he hasn't shown anything at World level. This is no disrespect to Serie A, its just Petit sentiment that Pogba's rep outstrips his actual ability as a player.
I don't mean to nitpick (genuinely), but he's 24 in about a week!
The 'he's only in his mid 20s' narrative seems desperate to me.
He's being paid as a star-performer, he's un-droppable and seemingly un-subbable, and he's in his mid 20s. We can't imagine that we're watching a 'prospect for the future', because that's clearly not the case.
He's being paid to be a top boy in our team right now, and whenever it most matters, the fecker's decision making goes missing!
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How many games did he go missing? Apart from those Liverpool games he has created excellent chances in almost every game. Looks like those 2 missed chances are clouding people's judgement of his performance.
By 'goes missing' I mean that his decision making drops by about 50%, he still gets involved, but fluffs simple decisions. I've edited it.
In almost every game we've had where there's been some added, tangible pressure, the same thing happens. Sometimes he'll still grab an assist because basically all our play goes through him, but even in those instances there'll be a lot of examples of him dithering on the ball or blasting daft hollywood passes or shots and losing possession repeatedly.
It's so un-Mourinho it's actually a bit odd.
If our attackers had their shooting boots on then he would have been in double digits when it comes to assists. He is blamed for the mistakes done by our attackers.
when the pressure is off and everything is rosey
I was furious after the game. Not on pogba because I thought he played rather well. He created most of our chances and gave us the penalty.
But I was furious on my girlfriend because when we got the penalty the first thing she said was that Zlatan would miss it.
She is now banned from watching all United games and handcuffed to the kitchen table. No worries though she got access to food and water.
But I was furious on my girlfriend because when we got the penalty the first thing she said was that Zlatan would miss it.
She is now banned from watching all United games and handcuffed to the kitchen table. No worries though she got access to food and water.
I hope Mourinho instructs him to stop shooting until he gets better at it on the training ground. It clearly affects him when he misses easy chances. He gets more stick than any of our players from the media and opposition fans when we don't win a match. When things don't go his way, he tries to make up for it by going for glory rather than trying to be a team player. The opinions of people clearly matter to him and he is still not mature enough to let it not get to him.
He misses a one-on-one against Liverpool at the start of the match and he put in an abysmal performance thereafter giving away a penalty, taking his anger out on Henderson in the midst of one of our corners and then taking too many touches resulting in him losing the ball far too often. Something similar happened to him when we played Stoke at home when he missed a sitter and then he shoved one of their players into the ground during one of our corners and it affected his whole game. These traits were apparent again in the last match against Bournemouth.
For the first time in his career, he is having to deal with this amount of responsibility on his shoulders and he doesn't seem to cope with that pressure when the team is not winning. Mourinho has questioned the mentality of players like Mkhitaryan, Shaw and Martial but if there is one player who needs toughening, it is Pogba.
He misses a one-on-one against Liverpool at the start of the match and he put in an abysmal performance thereafter giving away a penalty, taking his anger out on Henderson in the midst of one of our corners and then taking too many touches resulting in him losing the ball far too often. Something similar happened to him when we played Stoke at home when he missed a sitter and then he shoved one of their players into the ground during one of our corners and it affected his whole game. These traits were apparent again in the last match against Bournemouth.
For the first time in his career, he is having to deal with this amount of responsibility on his shoulders and he doesn't seem to cope with that pressure when the team is not winning. Mourinho has questioned the mentality of players like Mkhitaryan, Shaw and Martial but if there is one player who needs toughening, it is Pogba.
I'm not a major critic of Pogba and he can obviously improve loads in the next couple of years, but I've got to agree that 24 isn't amazingly young and a lot of top players aren't far from their peak at that age.
I'm not too worried though. Hoping we'll see an improvement this time next year after things have settled a bit more.