Paul Pogba

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The Neviller said:
How does anything you've said here show it makes sense for neither club to announce whether Pogba is going or not until his contract ends? I don't see what impact it has on any negotiations with other clubs/players that a teenager who has barely kicked a ball for United might or might not stay.
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You are not negotiating packets of crisps. It is multimillion pound deals we are talking about and in those a player's value is determined by how much you are perceived to be willing to pay.

It has no bearing on a Hazard negotiation, or Modric, but for the Dembeles of this world, if we have Pogba available or not does make a difference to our willingness to pay (in reality and in the counterparty's perception).

Of course, we have no duty to keep quiet about it unless it is convenient for us. If Juventus have signed him it would be reasonable to expect Juve to be happy to keep it quiet until July 1st (they got what they wanted so why not make allowances for club relations?). If we kept him that doesn't quite work, but as I said, I think we won't.
 
At a guess, i'd say Juve are offering him (and his agent) more money than United but not as much as they'd like. After all, Juventus isn't City.

There's probably some hard bargaining going on. Doesn't mean there's any chance of him accepting less from us and staying on but the deal with Juve isn't probably signed and sealed yet and the agent's going around offering him anywhere else he possibly can (PSG etc.)
 
Red-Indian said:
At a guess, i'd say Juve are offering him (and his agent) more money than United but not as much as they'd like. After all, Juventus isn't City.

There's probably some hard bargaining going on. Doesn't mean there's any chance of him accepting less from us and staying on but the deal with Juve isn't probably signed and sealed yet and the agent's going around offering him anywhere else he possibly can (PSG etc.)
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I'd say this is more likely than the deal having been signed and the two clubs being involved in a somehow mutually beneficial covert operation to keep the news under wraps.
 
The Neviller said:
I'd say this is more likely than the deal having been signed and the two clubs being involved in a somehow mutually beneficial covert operation to keep the news under wraps.
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They happen all the time. We are usually very quiet and very conscious of timing when conducting our transfer business and I would expect Juve to go along with anything we request, they've got nothing to lose and their priority once the deal is done immediately switches to not souring relationships.

If the deal weren't sorted you can be pretty sure Raiola would be keeping it in the news but there has been nothing concrete or even rumoured for bloody ages.
 
antohan said:
They happen all the time. We are usually very quiet and very conscious of timing when conducting our transfer business and I would expect Juve to go along with anything we request, they've got nothing to lose and their priority once the deal is done immediately switches to not souring relationships.

If the deal weren't sorted you can be pretty sure Raiola would be keeping it in the news but there has been nothing concrete or even rumoured for bloody ages.
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Read the thread title. Juventus are shit at this covert stuff then eh?
 
Yeah I'm fairly sure this is like that business with de Gea last year and it will become 'official' after July 1.

Is a change of agent in play? I know the whole thing was basically done by Raiola but last I checked he was still just the kids 'adviser'. Has he been upgraded to actual agent yet?
 
The Neviller said:
Read the thread title. Juventus are shit at this covert stuff then eh?
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Just saying enough yet not showing anything concrete to prove it. Pretty genius if you ask me. No one has asked about it again, yet no one knows for sure, and come July 1st he can simply say "Didn't I tell you about two months ago?".

I've no idea what you do for a living, but I'm pretty sure you've never dealt with multimillion pound negotiations, at least not in a sector which values money. Every single detail counts and will be taken care of, particularly in football when how much you have to pay is directly correlated with how much money you are deemed to have and how desperate you seem to be (it's not like you are asking for a quote on something generic, easily replicated, with an abundant supply, known cost and many potential suppliers).

It is not the players which are worth 5M or 25M or 50M, it's a myriad of factors that makes the buying club spend it. That's how Liverpool wound up spending 35M on Andy fecking Carroll. We would never put ourselves in such a situation in the first place, neither Gill nor SAF are idiots.

Whether we retain Pogba or not makes a difference to other clubs' perception of how much we may need, and thus be willing to pay for, their midfielders. Levy will ignore it, but for less established targets it is a relevant factor. It is also relevant to youth prospects (Clyne, Powell) who may wonder "Morrison shipped out, Pogba gone, some Norwood fella wanting out...", is that telling me something about my future prospects there?

It may or may not be worthwhile, but I'm sure SAF would find it more attractive to keep it quiet as long as possible rather than make it public purely so that everyone on the caf can stop arguing and close this thread.

There's absolutely no benefit in making it known, there are potential benefits in this "covert operation to keep it under wraps". Prove to me that is not the case before you act so dismissive.
 
I'll bow down to your greater knowledge of "multimillion pound negotiations". Of course it benefits both clubs to keep this quiet until 1st July, when there is a whole month left in the transfer window for the agents of potential midfield recruits and selling clubs to hike up their fees based on the fact we've lost a youth player. Maybe they'll let it wait to deadline day so Nathaniel Clyne doesn't pull out of a deal for fear of not getting games because Paul Pogba left.
 
The Neviller said:
I'll bow down to your greater knowledge of "multimillion pound negotiations". Of course it benefits both clubs to keep this quiet until 1st July, when there is a whole month left in the transfer window for the agents of potential midfield recruits and selling clubs to hike up their fees based on the fact we've lost a youth player. Maybe they'll let it wait to deadline day so Nathaniel Clyne doesn't pull out of a deal for fear of not getting games because Paul Pogba left.
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Why risk it?

Simple proof for you: most M&A deals are a disaster for the buyer. Why? Are M&As intrinsically bad? No, but usually the buyer is taken to the extreme of their available resources and willingness to pay. No one ever pays what a company is worth as a going concern, the selling side and an army of consultants will paint all these pretty pictures of how much value would be created through synergies, scale, etc.

As said, if you are buying something abundant, easy to replicate, with many suppliers, prices are pretty set. Players, like companies that are targeted for big-time M&A, do not have those characteristics. Their value is a function of how desperate the buyer is and you will push as far as you believe you can take them with them not walking away.

There is indeed another couple of months before the transfer window closes, and a risk that anyone who considers Pogba a factor just thinks they may as well wait until it is clearer. Two things work against them though:

1) The club could move on to other targets or be presented with further alternatives if made to wait.
2) You leave yourself less time to find your suitable replacement so whatever extra value you extract has to be higher than what it will cost you (see Carroll example)

For anyone peddling a 5-15M player (the ones were Pogba staying is a factor worth 1-2M) those two are important considerations. For someone peddling a more expensive/difficult to replace player the second is an issue and they couldn't care less about Pogba anyway.
 
According to italian news juve is close in signing anither promising cm verratti
 
devilish said:
According to italian news juve is close in signing anither promising cm verratti
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FM legend that one, always got him as a cheap Hamsik. Have you seen him play? Any good?

I thought Juve needed a striker more than anything else.
 
antohan said:
FM legend that one, always got him as a cheap Hamsik. Have you seen him play? Any good?

I thought Juve needed a striker more than anything else.
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He's pretty rated in Italy and he's got great potential. Prandelli called him in his 32 men list and that despite the boy is 19 yr old and is playing in Serie B


However my argument is why the hell Pogba would want to go to Juventus? Juventus are not big spenders (they work on a smaller budgets then us), their CM is pretty strong (Vidal, Marchisio and Pirlo), they practically signed Asamoah and are closing in for Verratti. Apart from the rumored signing on fee Raola would get from Juventus if Pogba signs with them, there's nothing that justify this deal.
 
devilish said:
He's pretty rated in Italy and he's got great potential. Prandelli called him in his 32 men list and that despite the boy is 19 yr old and is playing in Serie B


However my argument is why the hell Pogba would want to go to Juventus? Juventus are not big spenders (they work on a smaller budgets then us), their CM is pretty strong (Vidal, Marchisio and Pirlo), they practically signed Asamoah and are closing in for Verratti. Apart from the rumored signing on fee Raola would get from Juventus if Pogba signs with them, there's nothing that justify this deal.
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Frankly it makes no sense. The only reason I can see is that Raiola somehow convinced the boy that it is a good move and that the food in weather in Italy is better or something.

But I'm done with the whole story and actually don't care anymore. Wouldn't be the first talent to ruin his career by listening to his agent not to mention that Railoa is probably happy to make another move happen in 1 or 2 years to cash in again.

The only thing I don't understand is why there has been no official confirmation by now? What exactly are they waiting for?
 
devilish said:
He's pretty rated in Italy and he's got great potential. Prandelli called him in his 32 men list and that despite the boy is 19 yr old and is playing in Serie B


However my argument is why the hell Pogba would want to go to Juventus? Juventus are not big spenders (they work on a smaller budgets then us), their CM is pretty strong (Vidal, Marchisio and Pirlo), they practically signed Asamoah and are closing in for Verratti. Apart from the rumored signing on fee Raola would get from Juventus if Pogba signs with them, there's nothing that justify this deal.
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Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Marcotti claims Veratti is the new Pirlo.
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Which was my impression based entirely on how I used him on FM. Makes sense and underscores what I always found strangest:


  • No way Pogba is the new Pirlo, so the midfielder closest to retirement is not the one he could hope to be replacing.
  • No way is he going to replace Marchisio in the next 5 years or so (a homegrown local lad who is an Italian international, good luck with that!).
  • No way he is going to displace Vidal, who is a different type of player and significantly more versatile.
All he has to look forward to is a couple of years on loan and a move to a lesser club or a place on their bench until he is well into his twenties.


NoLogo said:
Frankly it makes no sense. The only reason I can see is that Raiola somehow convinced the boy that it is a good move and that the food in weather in Italy is better or something.
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The deal that made the rounds (20K/week + 2M for Raiola) is one that should have been sown up ages ago. Excellent for Raiola (no chance we would pay him that) and Juventus (total cost including a 6-year contract approx. what we spent on Bebe).

It doesn't make sense for those two not to tie it up pronto as soon as the kid even flinched. Add to that the fact that it would be harder to convince him over the Summer (calciopoli and several other midfield targets which Juve would have known about).

Why would Raiola risk that and leave it late to try extract, say, 1M more at most? He had a whole Summer ahead and lots of other clients, just pocket the 2M and move on.

The only thing I don't understand is why there has been no official confirmation by now? What exactly are they waiting for?
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You were always only going to know before July 1st if he had signed on with us. No one has any meaningful incentive to announce it otherwise.
 
Regarding Bebe, the most bizarre transfer ever.

I wonder whether it had any impact on the reserves. I for one would be playing in the reserves, seeing him first hand, and wondering "WTF were they thinking? Have they completely lost the plot around here?".
 
NoLogo said:
Frankly it makes no sense. The only reason I can see is that Raiola somehow convinced the boy that it is a good move and that the food in weather in Italy is better or something.

But I'm done with the whole story and actually don't care anymore. Wouldn't be the first talent to ruin his career by listening to his agent not to mention that Railoa is probably happy to make another move happen in 1 or 2 years to cash in again.

The only thing I don't understand is why there has been no official confirmation by now? What exactly are they waiting for?
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I would have understood if Pogba went to a club like Udinese (first team opportunity) or PSG (money) but not Juventus. Even the weather in Turin is nearly as shit as Manchester's

Another thing that Pogba need to take in account is Juventus patience. As I said before, Juve are similar to us in conducting things (they work on a budget, they prefer to develop their own talent etc), however they are far more cynical and arrogant then we are. This club is renowned of giving the boot to anyone who cross the line, including legends like Roberto Baggio, Ravanelli etc. Once your time is up (either you're deemed old, or the price is right), the club will escort you to the door without second thoughts. Considering Pogba's hesitation in signing with them + the fact that Juve are very close in signing two other CM, then I wont be surprised if La Vecchia Signora is losing patience with him. The risk of him pissing off both clubs is there
 
devilish said:
I would have understood if Pogba went to a club like Udinese (first team opportunity) or PSG (money) but not Juventus. Even the weather in Turin is nearly as shit as Manchester's

Another thing that Pogba need to take in account is Juventus patience. As I said before, Juve are similar to us in conducting things (they work on a budget, they prefer to develop their own talent etc), however they are far more cynical and arrogant then we are. This club is renowned of giving the boot to anyone who cross the line, including legends like Roberto Baggio, Ravanelli etc. Once your time is up (either you're deemed old, or the price is right), the club will escort you to the door without second thoughts. Considering Pogba's hesitation in signing with them + the fact that Juve are very close in signing two other CM, then I wont be surprised if La Vecchia Signora is losing patience with him. The risk of him pissing off both clubs is there
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Another reason why surely he has already signed. For Marotta to make that "lured away" statement he must have been very confident he would not end up looking the mug.

Your point on Juve's player management reminded me of Giovinco as well. Very special talent which they just laid the waste on the sidelines for far too long. I wonder whether Pogba ever heard of him though.
 
antohan said:
Regarding Bebe, the most bizarre transfer ever.

I wonder whether it had any impact on the reserves. I for one would be playing in the reserves, seeing him first hand, and wondering "WTF were they thinking? Have they completely lost the plot around here?".
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I agree however its not a first from us. Dont you remember the uproar caused by us signing bellion? We spend around 3m for him (who was never man utd quality in the first place) when the compensation to get him would have been half that fee
 
antohan said:
Another reason why surely he has already signed. For Marotta to make that "lured away" statement he must have been very confident he would not end up looking the mug.

Your point on Juve's player management reminded me of Giovinco as well. Very special talent which they just laid the waste on the sidelines for far too long. I wonder whether Pogba ever heard of him though.
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Giovinco is another case of juventus zero tolerance towards players crossing the line. The kid made a name while loaned, he was brought back to succeed nedved, while at juve he got a bit complecent and voila he was out of juvents premises before he could say farewell. Juve strategy is similar to ours but they are not us. Fans will boo you if yr not performing and the administration will kick yr butt the minute they think yr not performing. The compropieta rule helps them do that with minimum risk
 
We might see some action on this soon I suspect as Asamoah is undergoing a medical at Juventus. And last I checked it was rumored Pogba would sign for Juventus and be straight off to Udinese on loan to fill the Asamoah void.
 
If Pogba signs for Juve now it will look like a step backward. I think Powell will play more for the United first team this upcoming season than Pogba will for Juve.
 
gooDevil said:
If Pogba signs for Juve now it will look like a step backward. I think Powell will play more for the United first team this upcoming season than Pogba will for Juve.
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You mean he's not gone? What the feck to people talk about on here. Jesus.
 
devilish said:
Giovinco is another case of juventus zero tolerance towards players crossing the line. The kid made a name while loaned, he was brought back to succeed nedved, while at juve he got a bit complecent and voila he was out of juvents premises before he could say farewell. Juve strategy is similar to ours but they are not us. Fans will boo you if yr not performing and the administration will kick yr butt the minute they think yr not performing. The compropieta rule helps them do that with minimum risk
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He was sent on loan to Parma you loon, Juve still own 50% of his rights, and they may get him back.

As for Pogba, I'm pretty sure it's done with Juve and I'm pretty sure they've paid Raiola some extra cash in an offshore bank account to avoid taxes. That's how deals are done there. We cant compete with that level of graft. Incidentally Italy is going bankrupt.

As background, Mino Raiola was a pizzaiolo from Calabria in Amsterdam and Zlatan used to hang out at his pizza parlor. That's how they got to know each other. At some point Mino convinced Zlatan to sign the procure and allow Mino to represent him, and that's how he became a football agent. Once Zlatan became a star, other players wanted to sign with Raiola, incl Balotelli, and the rest is history. Pretty funny.
 
Drifter said:
Italian media say Juventus are ready for Manchester United legal action over Paul Pogba

http://sportwitness.ning.com/forum/...ventus-are-ready-for-manchester-united-legal-
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The Italian side already have Claudio Marchisio, Andrea Pirlo, Arturo Vidal and Emanuele Giaccherini. Youngster Luca Marrone struggles for game time, even as a substitute - and they've now strengthened their midfield considerably. Udinese's Kwadwo Asamoah had his medical with the club last week and the 23 year old, who was linked with Manchester United himself, is a very highly rated midfielder. They've also just got Chilean Mauricio Isla who can play just about anywhere, including central midfield. Oh, and another young midfielder has popped up in the shape of Omar El Kaddouri, who has signed from Brescia.
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Good luck getting into that midfield, Pogs.
 
So we want £300k, we're legally entitled to £240k and they can't find a compromise? There's something more to the story.
 
Brophs said:
So we want £300k, we're legally entitled to £240k and they can't find a compromise? There's something more to the story.
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Indeed. Which is pointed out in the article above, to be fair.

The difference is small and the fact that Juventus are dragging their feet over the amount could suggest they had a total ignorance of it in the first place, are playing hard ball in the hope Manchester United won't want to take it to FIFA's Dispute Resolution Chamber, or are getting cold feet over the cost of the transfer as a whole.
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Pogue Mahone said:
Indeed. Which is pointed out in the article above, to be fair.
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Nah, it's beyond that. Even League of Ireland clubs have a keen understanding of those rules.

EDIT: As you said, it might be down to the cost. But I doubt it.
 
So they're willing to pay his agent 2m but are playing hardball over an additional 60k to us? Doesn't make sense at all, it's about 1 or 2 weeks of Pogba's weekly wages and if they value him enough to pay his agent such a large sum, what's 60k to them?

The Pogba story just gets increasingly ridiculous as the time passes.
 
Pogba may be dragging his feet over the new allegations of fixing games in Serie A, including against the current Juve manager. He could well be waiting for some progress in that investigation before making a choice, room in the midfield aside.
 
Pogba is an fecking idiot if he is hoping to get into that Juve midfield.

SAF has said he will be first team player here in future.And we are quite bigger than Juve.

I just cannot understand this transfer. What the hell is going on?

There is certainly something complex going on.
 
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