Paul Pogba / turned down United offer of 300k as “nothing”

JJ12 said:
Pogba also plays in this team what on earth are you getting at :wenger: why is this teams shortcomings Bruno’s fault?

We are discussing their individual performances - Bruno has had a much bigger impact over the course of 2 seasons. I don’t think that is debatable but here we are.
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I’m defending a point to a stupid argument that Bruno has been better. All in all you can’t talk about a teams short comings then apply it to Bruno but not Pogba. It’s the same for both players. It’s just a preference argument at the end of the day. Bruno is looked at as some great w**}•e hope. Both have contributed well and both have failed in getting us close to the big prizes. There no Eric Cantona or Cristiano Ronaldo. But they are both very good players Pogba just being the better player. That’s all.
 
Eplel said:
Pogba at United
Games: 208
Goals: 38
Assists: 42

Bruno at United
Games: 80
Goals: 40
Assists: 25


You tell me.
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They play two different positions for Manchester United. But expose yourself at will.
 
Gavinb33 said:
Is it though look at what he has won, league titles and cups at Juve where they win most seasons regardless of players but failed to win the big trophy the CL and the world Cup where he was surrounded with elite world class talent such as Mbappe and Kante among0st others, you could say since leaving Juve in club football he hasn't achieved all that much and what he had won prior he was expected to win because Juve have won as much since he left
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We can literally do this for every bloody player on the planet if we wanted to.

Pick one and I’ll give you a great argument how it’s a two horse race league or have they have more money they the competing club or how they have the luxury of playing next to Xavi and Iniesta whilst X player Have Tom Cleverly. It’s all irrelevant.
 
charlenefan said:
You're wrong again, Pogba by recent reports is currently on 250k a week, those aren't wages that potential suitors of Pogba couldn't match, the issue is the bump he wants, that's something quite obviously out of the clubs hands . Now if we were talking about De Gea or Sanchez then you'd have a point but not with Pogba
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I’m talking about the clubs wage structure, yes De Gea for instance. We will have Bruno next who will be offered a new contract and as our most important player he’s wage will have to reflect that!
 
Mainoldo said:
I’m defending a point to a stupid argument that Bruno has been better. All in all you can’t talk about a teams short comings then apply it to Bruno but not Pogba. It’s the same for both players. It’s just a preference argument at the end of the day. Bruno is looked at as some great w**}•e hope. Both have contributed well and both have failed in getting us close to the big prizes. There no Eric Cantona or Cristiano Ronaldo. But they are both very good players Pogba just being the better player. That’s all.
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You haven’t defended anything with any sort of substance though.

Anyway - United are better with both and I hope Pogba stays.
 
ivaldo said:
No, quite the opposite. It was sarcasm. This notion that Pogba/Raiola keeps fecking us over is pure fantasy created to further push the narrative that Pogba is the bogeyman.
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I’ll have to disagree with you there, can’t wait for the pair of them to be away from the club.
 
This Bruno vs Pogba discussion is tiresome. Yes, Pogba is a natural bigger talent, but Bruno has done more for the club in 6 months than Pogba has for 5 years. Pogba, potensially great as is he can be is exused so much. For me it’s just not worth it. The Scandinavian supporters club presented some stats that showed that the team pick more points without him, which is interesting. I’m not saying we are better of without him, but I think the team looks more balanced and fluid when he doesn’t play. The main difference for me between Pogba and Bruno is that Bruno in an instant bossed games and improved us as a team, whilst Pogba needs other players performing to make an impact. People are talking about his Juve stint, but I remember his last season there where Pirlo and Matuidi was out in the beginning of the season, which ment Pogba had to take more responsibilty and dropped in his performances. Now, Ole found a position for him out left, making Rashford play right, which hasn’t worked out at all. Pogba might be brilliant on his day, and even though I will be sad seeing him leave, I think we should use that situation to sign a midfielder who suits our system better.
 
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Mainoldo said:
How many games has he been benched? Interested to know because you’d think he was a super sub last season.

Infact I will answer it. He was subbed 5 matches out of 26.
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End of the day the only position he can play effectively is CAM, with no defensive duties. And even then Bruno’s goal scoring stats are far superior in that position. The deeper Pogba plays the more he’s targeted by the opposition’s press and I’ve lost count how many times he loses possession in dangerous areas which leads to a goal.

He’s a great player but I really don’t think he will be a massive loss to us. There is constant drama around him and I think it would be best to get money for him before he leaves on a free anyway. We need a proper defensive midfielder and I believe our midfield would be far more balanced and effective. It will also provide proper width as we aren’t trying to get Pogba on the wing, whilst trying to play two defensively minded midfielders, with a lack of passing skills.
 
KetilOwren88 said:
This Bruno vs Pogba discussion is tiresome. Yes, Pogba is a natural bigger talent, but Bruno has done more for the club in 6 months than Pogba has for 5 years. Pogba, possibly great as is he can be is exused so much. For me it’s just not worth it. The Scandinavian supporters club presented some stats that showed that the team pick more points without him, which is interesting. I’m not saying we are better of without him, but I think the team looks more balanced and fluid when he doesn’t play. The main difference for me between Pogba and Bruno is that Bruno in an instant bossed games and improved us as a team, whilst Pogba needs other players performing to make an impact. People are talking about his Juve stint, but I remember his last season there where Pirlo and Matuidi was out in the beginning of the season, which ment Pogba had to take more responsibilty and dropped in his performances. Now, Ole found a position for him out left, making Rashford play right, which hasn’t worked out at all. Pogba might be brilliant on his day, and even though I will be sad seeing him leave, I think we should use that situation to sign a midfielder who suits our system better.
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Stop exaggerating - we won 2 trophies without Bruno and Pogba scored in EL final for us.
 
KiD MoYeS said:
I still don't know his best position or role. After five years. That is an issue in itself.
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FrankDrebin said:
He's played numerous roles for us and has been a success and failure in all with equal measure.
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This is the issue really, in basic terms of course you want to keep one of your most talented players. But in context, do we really want to make a player who no one knows what his best position is, who at 28 has never developed into a consistent performer, who has been dropped by the last 2 managers for both form and attitude issues the highest-paid footballer in the club's history?

Which is what it would take to keep Pogba past the end of next season.
 
FootyGirl88 said:
Stop exaggerating - we won 2 trophies without Bruno and Pogba scored in EL final for us.
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True, and David May won a lot more trophies than Bryan Robson. Does that mean he had a bigger impact on the team? Bruno contributed to an instant optimism we haven’t felt since Ferguson retired and without him we probably wouldn’t be anywhere near a CL spot. Again, Pogba can be great on his day but I am surprised so many are downplaying Bruno to prove a point for Pogba.
 
Mainoldo said:
They play two different positions for Manchester United. But expose yourself at will.
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Can you please point out the huge differences in their positions? And try to not move the goalposts this time.
 
KiD MoYeS said:
I still don't know his best position or role. After five years. That is an issue in itself.
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Still the same since he has left Juventus, as the most advanced midfielder in a 3 or as the left midfielder in a 4-4-2 or like we used him last season on the left wing, which technically wasn't really a left winger position.
 
Riola is like wormtail whispering poison into he ear of King Theodin. Pogba is a bit goofy and quite probably has ADHD. I like Pogba but he is no Zlatan. He is a twat and he has not earned his place in the first team of Utd. He is just not willing to do a job for the team and fulfill his defensive obligations. Let him run his contract down, he will try his heart out so Riola can get a huge greasy bone.
 
Cant we just offer him to Madrid as a swap for Varane? He's said in the past he's like to play for Madrid.
 
charlenefan said:
You're wrong again, Pogba by recent reports is currently on 250k a week, those aren't wages that potential suitors of Pogba couldn't match, the issue is the bump he wants, that's something quite obviously out of the clubs hands . Now if we were talking about De Gea or Sanchez then you'd have a point but not with Pogba
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Pogba's salary is in the Football Leaks book. After the 2nd year, it is £7.75m basic + £1.875m if in CL + £3.78m loyalty bonus + £2.87m image rights = £16.275m

There is a Daily Mail image with the details in the first post on the following thread (requires careful reading as the figures for the first and second years are slightly different): https://www.redcafe.net/threads/football-leaks-ibrahimovic-and-pogba-wages.428839/
 
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Eddy_JukeZ said:
Someone posted the stats on here, but our win rate significantly goes up when Pogba doesn't start under Ole.

Hard to argue against the facts.

I'd like for him to stay, but we've lost better players before and done fine.
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I've seen our midfield, it's not good enough to win the Premier League that's for sure. That midfield can challenge for top 4 but isn't going to win major trophies.

My point seems to be missed, I'm saying if he leaves we must significantly improve our midfield. It's far from good enough. That's my point. Even if he stays, we should be after a DM.
 
BusbyMalone said:
My issue with this is not the player himself, as I couldn't care less whether he leaves or not. I certainly won't be shedding a tear over it nor will I miss him in the slightest. The issue is, is that we would obviously need to replace him, and considering we already need a midfielder I can't see us getting two, first-team starters and the CB we need before the season starts.

If he does leave, it will probably be dragged out which will only inhibit our chances of replacing him, which in turn could possibly screw up our season. If he is going to leave, let's get it done ASAP and be done with him.
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Think VDB would play a bigger part in the team. On theory at least.

That's Bruno, VDB, McTominay, Fred and Matic. Plus his replacement. Oh and Mata too. We do have numbers.
 
LoneStar said:
Think VDB would play a bigger part in the team. On theory at least.

That's Bruno, VDB, McTominay, Fred and Matic. Plus his replacement. Oh and Mata too. We do have numbers.
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Yeah, we have numbers, but the quality is the issue. We already have to upgrade on one of McTominay or Fred. Matic is solid, but he's not going to play THAT often. And Mata will have little game time, IMO. Our midfield needs upgrading now, and that's before Pogba possibly leaves.
 
PJS007 said:
Cant we just offer him to Madrid as a swap for Varane? He's said in the past he's like to play for Madrid.
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They want cash so they can sign Mbappe. Which in and of itself is a bit stupid. Modric and Kroos aren't getting any younger and they have no readymade replacements.
 
You can’t force a player to go and I’m sure we still want him to stay.

Besides if he stays that’s another 12 months of convincing him to stay

That being said, if you have to he convinced to stay, do you really want to be here? Wouldn’t it be more detrimental in the long run?


Will Singh said:
IMO him running down he’s contract is holding the club ransoms.nuts a win win for him and we lose either way!
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Interesting how no one has backed up the Mirror's claim by now that he has rejected the contract offer

That being said no one has shot it down either
 
Borys said:
You questioned the stats provided by @hobbers, and argued that Pogba starting the game isn't the best way to judge his effect on the team because he made an impact from the bench. It's a fair point but it doesn't change the fact we're getting significantly more points when he isn't starting. It's not a hole in theory, it's a different point.

Fbref provides another angle, with "impact" calculated per 90', but including each game in which given player was on the pitch 30'+. Here you can see a summary for 2020/21 season. All those stats tell the story Pogba isn't that important for United as some might suggest.
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I've seen that post of yours before, my previous point still addresses this.

The fact that Matic tops that list should already give you room for pause, especially if your conclusion is to use the list to determine the relative importance of the players based on their placement. Of course I'm going to find a statistic that claims Matic as our most influential midfielder, with Pogba being the least influential and Bruno the 2nd least, a bit suspect. And if there's no effort by you to qualify that then I'm already losing interest, because otherwise it would be my job to validate your pretty wild claim.

Point being, if you're going to use stats like that, your job isn't to use them to validate your already formed pov and leave it at that. It will always be unconvincing if you do so (except to those who already have that pov, of course).
 
romufc said:
16/17 - Big chances created
https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/big_chance_created

https://external-preview.redd.it/dR...bp&s=e9bec995fbf603f24d85e8b866f706cd0cfa10cc

You have posted the win/loss ratio from 2/3 years ago mate... go check 2016 to current.
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The stats are Factual. Trying to falsely claim he had " one purple patch" is proved wrong with the statistical evidence you were shown.

He was the most Creative player in England (most through balls) and the third highest ranked player in the Premier league statistically despite playing for the 6th best team. And in the 2017/18 season our creative stats went down badly when he wasn't playing (proved by the numbers)

And I'm not even talking about Europe where he was still good enough to be the player of the tournament in the EL 2016/17- the last relevant trophy this club has won in 8 years.

These are simple facts that cannot be argued against. Funny how he achieved all of that in " One purple patch" right ?





VP89 said:
If ever there was a post built to cherry pick stats.

Firstly, we watch the fecking games, don't patronise us with stats from a few seasons ago to try and put things into context now. Stats alone don't tell you the whole picture but even if you wanted to look at them it's not exactly glowing one way or another as per @hobbers post
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the season they were collected is irrelevant to the statement that is being refuted
 
Canagel said:
The stats are Factual. Trying to falsely claim he had " one purple patch" is proved wrong with the statistical evidence you were shown.

He was the most Creative player in England (most through balls) and the third highest ranked player in the Premier league statistically despite playing for the 6th best team. And in the 2017/18 season our creative stats went down badly when he wasn't playing (proved by the numbers)

And I'm not even talking about Europe where he was still good enough to be the player of the tournament in the EL 2016/17- the last relevant trophy this club has won in 8 years.

These are simple facts that cannot be argued against. Funny how he achieved all of that in " One purple patch" right ?
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Most through balls - didn't realise the meaning of most means 3rd.
https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/total_through_ball

Also in the last 2 seasons, its proved factually that the team does better without Pogba in the team than him in the team.

Well done to him, he was Europa league player of the year, lets all go celebrate that. What has he done in a Manutd shirt in the CL - yep feck all.

Even if it's not 1 purple patch, its a maximum of 2 in 5 years for a player who is paid close to 300k a week.
 
Good thing about this that we know it in July so that we can prepare well. But ideally would have preferred to have this next season since we already spent on Sancho.

2 MF, 1 CB and 1 RB is what we need but it does not look likely that we will get all 4 of them.
 
Mainoldo said:
Has Bruno? I mean he consistently is nowhere to be seen in a big game. I can’t recall one Man City like performance that Pogba had, there’s also zero trophies to show for it whilst also arguably playing in a better team.

It’s all hype but not reality. Like someone pretending we develop youth.
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He is doing his bit by scoring the goals, penalties or otherwise. He can't be held responsible for the team not showing up in the finals
 
He'sRaldo said:
I've seen that post of yours before, my previous point still addresses this.

The fact that Matic tops that list should already give you room for pause, especially if your conclusion is to use the list to determine the relative importance of the players based on their placement. Of course I'm going to find a statistic that claims Matic as our most influential midfielder, with Pogba being the least influential and Bruno the 2nd least, a bit suspect. And if there's no effort by you to qualify that then I'm already losing interest, because otherwise it would be my job to validate your pretty wild claim.

Point being, if you're going to use stats like that, your job isn't to use them to validate your already formed pov and leave it at that. It will always be unconvincing if you do so (except to those who already have that pov, of course).
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You got it totally wrong with "formed pov", I actually checked the stats for different reason (in one of the other threads somebody posted something about highest PPG with Fred, and I got interested in that). So firstly I checked the stats which indicate we're having pretty poor record with Pogba in the team compared to other midfielders.

There is a lot of context for that kind of stats, for example Matic only started in 12 games (although I stated multiple times during the season he's criminally underused), in other debate Telles has higher PPM than Shaw because he played against weaker opponents, Bruno played almost every game so his PPM is pretty much the same as for the team over the season. With Pogba we have a pretty decent sample od data with him and without him in the team, wouldn't you agree? Every time I try to look at the data from that perspective.
I've been accused of presenting the data without context, but I can't find any explanation for Pogba poor record last season. He wasn't even first choice midfielder against the top teams (where we played conservative and targeted goalles draw most times). So may I ask again, whoever is doubting that data may provide some argument against it?
 
Son said:
Two players like Saul and Camavinga maybe to replace Pogba would be smart business. Experience and one for the future.

We really need to bolster our versatile midfield options, especially if we are doing the 3 man mid this coming season and Camavinga would literally be like getting a young Pogba again. Perfect like for like.

Saul will give us the grit and ball retention abilities we should be looking at to dominate games better than we normally do.
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That would be amazing, I will take

One from --Carmavinga / Bissouma / Touchameni / Brozovic

One from --Saul / Aouar / Goretzka
 
romufc said:
Most through balls - didn't realise the meaning of most means 3rd.
https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/total_through_ball

Also in the last 2 seasons, its proved factually that the team does better without Pogba in the team than him in the team.

Well done to him, he was Europa league player of the year, lets all go celebrate that. What has he done in a Manutd shirt in the CL - yep feck all.

Even if it's not 1 purple patch, its a maximum of 2 in 5 years for a player who is paid close to 300k a week.
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By your logic no one in our squad has done anything in the CL considering we've been massively disappointing as a side in the UCL ever since SAF left.

And Pogba was probably our best player in the later half of the season along with Cavani and Shaw.
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
By your logic no one in our squad has done anything in the CL considering we've been massively disappointing as a side in the UCL ever since SAF left.

And Pogba was probably our best player in the later half of the season along with Cavani and Shaw.
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That is correct. No one has done anything in the CL.

Sure, if you say so. Best player yeah.. okay.
 
Being a free agent is the new era of the transfers

Many players going to became impossible to extend (alaba, donnarumma, pogba, mbappe etc)
 
::sonny:: said:
Being a free agent is the new era of the transfers

Many players are going to became impossible to extend (alaba, donnarumma, pogba, mbappe etc)
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Its driven by the agents really. The likes of Railoa know that they get a bigger piece of the chunk if the player goes for a free or a smaller fee.

It's an agents game at the moment.
 
romufc said:
Its driven by the agents really. The likes of Railoa know that they get a bigger piece of the chunk if the player goes for a free or a smaller fee.

It's an agents game at the moment.
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Wish I could get a piece of chunk
 
Breaking on SSN - he's unlikely to sign a new contract
 
Looks like DVB will play alot more if Pogba goes. Guess Utd will concentrate on a longer term replacement for Matic / upgrade on Fred who can screen the defensive and provide the initial key pass on breakway transitions to feed the forwards.
 
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