Paul Pogba racially abused on social media

OL29 said:
Hold on, if Pogba flirting with Madrid is such a crime (and let’s be honest, he HAS dropped numerous hints) why didn’t we hear anything from Neville on Rooney who handed in two transfer requests, flirted with City, and generally behaved unprofessionally at numerous points in his career? And I know Rooney’s achievements at united can’t be compared to Pogba but that’s still a massive double standard, especially when his antics directly contributed to us losing the title in 2012. Surely that would have left Neville fuming?
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The whole ‘he flirted with Madrid’ thing is a nonsense excuse people are using to justify their distain.

The guy said he wanted a new challenge & by the looks of his midfield partners most would too. He then turned up for pre-season & has been professional.

RvN refuses to sit on the bench before going to Madrid, Ronaldo issued post match flirtations - it goes on.

These guys are employees, not fans. Why would Pogba be ‘loyal’ given the way some fans treat him? Would you feel a part of the club when people criticise you after you give 2 assists in the first game at Chelsea for example. You’d think Cabellos was the greatest midfielder in Arsenal’s history after 2 assist this weekend where as Pogba assists twice against Chelsea & his performance thread is a shambles. People were actually celebrating that fan at the end of last season by the tunnel, bet that makes him feel like a right part of the United family.

He’s been far more professional than I would be in this instance.

The wilful ignorance of people in this thread isn’t shocking, it just speaks to how divided we all are.
 
AFC NimbleThumb said:
The whole ‘he flirted with Madrid’ thing is a nonsense excuse people are using to justify their distain.

The guy said he wanted a new challenge & by the looks of his midfield partners most would too. He then turned up for pre-season & has been professional.

RvN refuses to sit on the bench before going to Madrid, Ronaldo issued post match flirtations - it goes on.

These guys are employees, not fans. Why would Pogba be ‘loyal’ given the way some fans treat him? Would you feel a part of the club when people criticise you after you give 2 assists in the first game at Chelsea for example. You’d think Cabellos was the greatest midfielder in Arsenal’s history after 2 assist this weekend where as Pogba assists twice against Chelsea & his performance thread is a shambles. People were actually celebrating that fan at the end of last season by the tunnel, bet that makes him feel like a right part of the United family.

He’s been far more professional than I would be in this instance.

The wilful ignorance of people in this thread isn’t shocking, it just speaks to how divided we all are.
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Oh I agree with all of this, I don’t have any problem if he wants to leave, I’m just acknowledging that he clearly wants out, which seems to personally offend those who lose sight of the bigger picture.
 
OL29 said:


It’s pretty much a witch-hunt, how can you criticise Pogba for wanting to be Hollywood and fail to mention Rashford shooting from 60 yard free kicks? I don’t care what anyone says, I hope Pogba leaves, the English press have targeted him since he returned and it’s uncomfortable to watch.
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It's unconscious bias, the majority of pundits in this country suffer from it.
 
OL29 said:
Hold on, if Pogba flirting with Madrid is such a crime (and let’s be honest, he HAS dropped numerous hints) why didn’t we hear anything from Neville on Rooney who handed in two transfer requests, flirted with City, and generally behaved unprofessionally at numerous points in his career? And I know Rooney’s achievements at united can’t be compared to Pogba but that’s still a massive double standard, especially when his antics directly contributed to us losing the title in 2012. Surely that would have left Neville fuming?
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Because Rooney doesn't play for us anymore and Neville wasn't a pundit when all that happened and Rooney is someone he played with whereas he can be more open about the current generation? Plus Rooney gave us years of world class service whereas Pogba has been a disappointment?
 
Art Vandelay said:
Because Rooney doesn't play for us anymore and Neville wasn't a pundit when all that happened and Rooney is someone he played with whereas he can be more open about the current generation? Plus Rooney gave us years of world class service whereas Pogba has been a disappointment?
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Neville was pundit when Rooney asked for transfer back in 2012-13, he even did interview with Scholes in which Scholes mentioned that.

I agree with the overall point though. Rooney was teammate, friend and also played almost all his career for ManUtd.
 
Art Vandelay said:
Because Rooney doesn't play for us anymore and Neville wasn't a pundit when all that happened and Rooney is someone he played with whereas he can be more open about the current generation? Plus Rooney gave us years of world class service whereas Pogba has been a disappointment?
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But people are saying that Neville’s issues with Pogba are due to his disruptive influence, if that’s the case, Neville witnesses Rooney’s disruption first hand yet was extremely protective of him when he moved into punditry. Spin it whichever way you like but it’s blatant hypocrisy at the very least.
 
roonster09 said:
Neville was pundit when Rooney asked for transfer back in 2012-13, he even did interview with Scholes in which Scholes mentioned that.

I agree with the overall point though. Rooney was teammate, friend and also played almost all his career for ManUtd.
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fecking hell has he been a pundit that long? The point still stands though, for all the criticism Rooney deserves(which is one whole hell of a lot) expecting Neville to be the one to do it is just going to lead to disappointment.
 
roonster09 said:
Neville was pundit when Rooney asked for transfer back in 2012-13, he even did interview with Scholes in which Scholes mentioned that.

I agree with the overall point though. Rooney was teammate, friend and also played almost all his career for ManUtd.
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While this is true, what does it say about Neville’s credibility as a pundit when he can’t separate his personal relationships from his job? Stinks of hypocrisy to me.
 
OL29 said:
But people are saying that Neville’s issues with Pogba are due to his disruptive influence, if that’s the case, Neville witnesses Rooney’s disruption first hand yet was extremely protective of him when he moved into punditry. Spin it whichever way you like but it’s blatant hypocrisy at the very least.
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Or it's someone not publicly slagging off his mate? Rooney deserved criticism and managed to escape a lot of it, but Neville was never going to be the one to dish it out. Whereas he's removed from the current generation and is more free to do so.
 
Art Vandelay said:
fecking hell has he been a pundit that long? The point still stands though, for all the criticism Rooney deserves(which is one whole hell of a lot) expecting Neville to be the one to do it is just going to lead to disappointment.
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Yeah, he retired long back and also used to look like an idiot going after De Gea. IIRC SAF also commented on that back in 2011 or 2012. He said how his teammates like Vidic and others don't trust him (he became body language expert at that time analyzing video).
 
pastyfool said:
Neville’s comments last night had just as much influence on the racist tweets as computer games do with mass shootings in the States. NOTHING.

Stop looking to point fingers at people you don’t like. Neville also went on to say last night that he believed Pogba could be the player of the season.

And for all of you reading this who still think Neville is somewhat to blame, if at some point in the future Young gets racially abused online (which I’m sure he has already) will it be OK for me to point a finger at half of you on this forum who are constantly slagging him off... Of course not.

There’s going to be a percentage of idiots out there.
Don’t be one of them.
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Agreed.
 
OL29 said:
While this is true, what does it say about Neville’s credibility as a pundit when he can’t separate his personal relationships from his job? Stinks of hypocrisy to me.
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I agree with lot of Neville points in general but I don't take him seriously when he talks about any player. He barely criticizes English players, so I don't take his words seriously at all. I still remember how shit he was when it came to Hart vs De Gea.
 
JPRouve said:
Which is why I first said aggressive and used the term potentially in front of hateful, you can't ignore half of the words, some will think that he is aggressive others that he is hateful it's a matter of perception. And with Neville, it's all about the tone that he uses when he talks about Pogba, the delivery is as important as the substance.
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And for me, that tone is one of exasperation, more than of hatred or aggression (I find Souness far worse in this regard.) And ‘potentially’ is such a tricky and suggestive word and, in my opinion, not appropriate to use when making an inference of racism and/or complicity in racism.
 
roonster09 said:
Yeah, he retired long back and also used to look like an idiot going after De Gea. IIRC SAF also commented on that back in 2011 or 2012. He said how his teammates like Vidic and others don't trust him (he became body language expert at that time analyzing video).
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Yeah, but that was back when he had an unconcious bias against tall Spaniards which you can see a mile away because of his moustache, accent and where he went to school.

Now I'm realising how long De Gea has been here and feeling increasingly old. It all feels like not that long ago Sir Alex was still there, maybe I'm repressing the Moyes and LVG eras in my mind.
 
Rolaholic said:
Article is spot on,there isn't a more scrutinized player in the league and one of the most in world football. When things are going well he doesn't get the plaudits that his contemporaries get for doing similar because it's 'expected (while a De Bruyne can go almost a full year without registering an assist then back to being considered the best in the world after one match) and when things go south it always falls squarely on his head. Been a shame seeing so many fans willingly go all in on rival fan and media narratives against one our own which would adversely effect any player.
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Exactly. I have never seen an academy graduate, and star player of a team, be so scrutinised by their own fanbase. It’s nuts. Media set the standard when he came back by having a ridiculous issue with his haircuts and happy disposition, oppo fans, often motivated by jealousy, amplified it, but the most absurd thing is how Man United fans jumped on the same train. It’s been non-stop since.
 
jem said:
And for me, that tone is one of exasperation, more than of hatred or aggression (I find Souness far worse in this regard.) And ‘potentially’ is such a tricky and suggestive word and, in my opinion, not appropriate to use when making an inference of racism and/or complicity in racism.
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It's not tricky at all, I didn't make any of the things that you mentioned in the last sentence. And truth be told I'm done, if your goal is to argue about things that I didn't say, do it alone.
 
AFC NimbleThumb said:
I left this thread last night & rejoin with people still seeking ‘proof’ Neville is a racist despite no one actually saying he is.

The fact people refuse to get their mind around the fact that the criticism of Pogba & the narrative portrayed could perhaps fuel the fire amazes me.

People really do get uncomfortable around race so honestly how can you have a discussion. I mentioned privilege yesterday & people were falling over themselves.

People are literally speaking on behalf of Neville as if he were a family member but no one is calling him what he’s being defended against.

He has a responsibility as a pundit to analyse the game & give his opinion, he does this in a way to Pogba that doesn’t quite correlate with the vast majority of his analysis. Does this mean he is ‘a racist’, no but he has biases [not necessarily racial] that mean his lexis around the man is. . . OTT.

Neville has a right to make his points, he can make good ones but when Pogba is involved he loses all rationale.
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I can't speak for others, but I've been asking for direct quotes of words he's said so I can understand how those words can be held in any way accountable for the racist actions of people online or, in the example that mancan92 gave, for the racist words of an idiot in a bar. I've yet to see any. I've never said that you or mancan92 or anyone else has directly labelled Neville racist; but hinting that he is complicit in the racist actions of others is still, to my mind, a very serious charge, and one that requires more than the, at best, circumstantial evidence that has been provided.

I am more than willing to engage in discussions around race (I don't like to say comfortable because that hints at a complacency that I, as a privileged white male, have no right to.) But I think with open dialogues such as those comes a responsibility not to slander, or at the very least, to provide tangible evidence when making accusations, however subtle or indirect they may be.
 
JPRouve said:
It's not tricky at all, I didn't make any of the things that you mentioned in the last sentence. And truth be told I'm done, if your goal is to argue about things that I didn't say, do it alone.
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Calm down JPRouve - you jumped into a discussion in which some of those inferences were being made by others, and then claimed that Neville's words had the potential to incite hatred (in a thread about racism towards Pogba.) So it is hardly a stretch to see your words as supporting the claims of others (even if that wasn't your intent), claims which implied racist complicity in Neville's words about Pogba.

Unrelated side note: I just arrived in France yesterday - the croissants really are amazing. Now to try the French taco....
 
jem said:
I can't speak for others, but I've been asking for direct quotes of words he's said so I can understand how those words can be held in any way accountable for the racist actions of people online or, in the example that mancan92 gave, for the racist words of an idiot in a bar. I've yet to see any. I've never said that you or mancan92 or anyone else has directly labelled Neville racist; but hinting that he is complicit in the racist actions of others is still, to my mind, a very serious charge, and one that requires more than the, at best, circumstantial evidence that has been provided.

I am more than willing to engage in discussions around race (I don't like to say comfortable because that hints at a complacency that I, as a privileged white male, have no right to.) But I think with open dialogues such as those comes a responsibility not to slander, or at the very least, to provide tangible evidence when making accusations, however subtle or indirect they may be.
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It's not circumstantial it is video evidence. You believe that he didn't cross a line whilst other people feel he did. It's that simple.
 
OL29 said:


It’s pretty much a witch-hunt, how can you criticise Pogba for wanting to be Hollywood and fail to mention Rashford shooting from 60 yard free kicks? I don’t care what anyone says, I hope Pogba leaves, the English press have targeted him since he returned and it’s uncomfortable to watch.
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What's this plonker's name again? I'm gonna have a go at him on Twitter.
 
jem said:
Calm down JPRouve - you jumped into a discussion in which some of those inferences were being made by others, and then claimed that Neville's words had the potential to incite hatred (in a thread about racism towards Pogba.) So it is hardly a stretch to see your words as supporting the claims of others (even if that wasn't your intent), claims which implied racist complicity in Neville's words about Pogba.

Unrelated side note: I just arrived in France yesterday - the croissants really are amazing. Now to try the French taco....
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I didn't jump in a discussion, I didn't quote or linked my post to anyone. You asked me a question and when I gave you an answer, you made it about racism even though the first post that you quoted clearly stated that I don't suspect any racism in Neville. That's why I thought that the thread was weird, it's as if no one actually read the posts that they are quoting. And it seems to be true for both sides.

PS: I'm glad you liked it, the quality varies a lot from one shop to the other.
 
jem said:
I can't speak for others, but I've been asking for direct quotes of words he's said so I can understand how those words can be held in any way accountable for the racist actions of people online or, in the example that mancan92 gave, for the racist words of an idiot in a bar. I've yet to see any. I've never said that you or mancan92 or anyone else has directly labelled Neville racist; but hinting that he is complicit in the racist actions of others is still, to my mind, a very serious charge, and one that requires more than the, at best, circumstantial evidence that has been provided.

I am more than willing to engage in discussions around race (I don't like to say comfortable because that hints at a complacency that I, as a privileged white male, have no right to.) But I think with open dialogues such as those comes a responsibility not to slander, or at the very least, to provide tangible evidence when making accusations, however subtle or indirect they may be.
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Although I agree with you, I also have to say that the media is complicit in the events that have surrounded Pogba recently. Although Neville's words may not have directly resulted in Pogba being abused, but he's feeding a narrative that has been going on for a few years. Ever since Pogba joined United, he has been subject to a media witch hunt, for reasons that we can all speculate (I suspect racial undertones myself). Gary Neville has done very little to alleviate this agenda, and even worse, has been feeding it and causing it to grow.

Neville is one of the most prominent figures in British football and I don't think it's over the top to say that if he doesn't have a go at Pogba, then the abuse may have been less severe from the idiots on Twitter.
 
pastyfool said:
Neville’s comments last night had just as much influence on the racist tweets as computer games do with mass shootings in the States. NOTHING.

Stop looking to point fingers at people you don’t like. Neville also went on to say last night that he believed Pogba could be the player of the season.

And for all of you reading this who still think Neville is somewhat to blame, if at some point in the future Young gets racially abused online (which I’m sure he has already) will it be OK for me to point a finger at half of you on this forum who are constantly slagging him off... Of course not.

There’s going to be a percentage of idiots out there.
Don’t be one of them.
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Not even remotely the same thing. We are talking about negative rhetoric against a player of color on a world wide stage. Equating video games or random anonymous posters to this issue is intellectually dishonest at best. After the 4-0 loss to Everton, Neville referred to Pogba as "rotten" and essentially placed all the blame on him for United woes. This is essentially making him a target. Do I believe Neville is a racist? Absolutely not. But that doesn't matter as his agenda-filled rants against Pogba are watched by millions of fans, feed into the negativity around him and make him an easy target for idiots such as racists.

For the last time, it's not Neville's fault but his comments hold a lot of weight because of his platform. He should know better and keep his negative biases to himself.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
Of course there are, they are everywhere, but I think most people thought we were still pretty civilised. Obviously not.
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You lost that one when the angry brigade voted to leave brexit because immigrants are scary.

I have to say though, super uplifting to see Rashford and perhaps most of all Maguire come out and speak out against these scumbags directly.

I would have no qualms about these people being banned from Old Trafford for the next 5 years until they have shown they can be functioning adults.
 
Tom Cato said:
You lost that one when the angry brigade voted to leave brexit because immigrants are scary.

I have to say though, super uplifting to see Rashford and perhaps most of all Maguire come out and speak out against these scumbags directly.

I would have no qualms about these people being banned from Old Trafford for the next 5 years until they have shown they can be functioning adults.
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It is good to see he has the support of his teammates and the club. It is the angry brigade that scare me, not the immigrants.
 
This is a problem of social media more than people. We already knew that there are racists around, what they've got now is a platform to direct their hate towards the players.
 
ThatsGreat said:
This is a problem of social media more than people. We already knew that there are racists around, what they've got now is a platform to direct their hate towards the players.
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This reads like it's more a problem of people than social media.
 
Agreed. Social media pl
ThatsGreat said:
This is a problem of social media more than people. We already knew that there are racists around, what they've got now is a platform to direct their hate towards the players.
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Agreed. Social media platforms have a responsibility (or should have) to ensure twattish comments aren’t put out there.

Free speech is one thing, the freedom to spout racist bile is another. Harry Maguire is correct, all these accounts should be registered with identification so people can be held accountable for the crap the post.

I’m not a massive Pogba fan but I’ve got his back on this one.
 
OL29 said:
Hold on, if Pogba flirting with Madrid is such a crime (and let’s be honest, he HAS dropped numerous hints) why didn’t we hear anything from Neville on Rooney who handed in two transfer requests, flirted with City, and generally behaved unprofessionally at numerous points in his career? And I know Rooney’s achievements at united can’t be compared to Pogba but that’s still a massive double standard, especially when his antics directly contributed to us losing the title in 2012. Surely that would have left Neville fuming?
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Another good point.
 
JPRouve said:
I didn't jump in a discussion, I didn't quote or linked my post to anyone. You asked me a question and when I gave you an answer, you made it about racism even though the first post that you quoted clearly stated that I don't suspect any racism in Neville. That's why I thought that the thread was weird, it's as if no one actually read the posts that they are quoting. And it seems to be true for both sides.

PS: I'm glad you liked it, the quality varies a lot from one shop to the other.
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Ok, chalk it up to misunderstanding. The quality might vary, but if you've ever tasted a croissant in Canada, you'll be thankful for any that you have in France! I'm in Grenoble, so apparently there are a number of French taco places nearby...
 
Jordan_mufc said:
Although I agree with you, I also have to say that the media is complicit in the events that have surrounded Pogba recently. Although Neville's words may not have directly resulted in Pogba being abused, but he's feeding a narrative that has been going on for a few years. Ever since Pogba joined United, he has been subject to a media witch hunt, for reasons that we can all speculate (I suspect racial undertones myself). Gary Neville has done very little to alleviate this agenda, and even worse, has been feeding it and causing it to grow.

Neville is one of the most prominent figures in British football and I don't think it's over the top to say that if he doesn't have a go at Pogba, then the abuse may have been less severe from the idiots on Twitter.
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It might not be over the top, but it's speculative in the extreme, and quite a serious accusation to make.
 
JPRouve said:
This reads like it's more a problem of people than social media.
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No, the people problem has always been there. Racism is basically tribalism a by product of family building which is coded into our DNA since millenia. Whats changed now is that people have found newer and more effective methods of expressing their racism. Definitely a problem of social media. Put it this way, a racist would've had to buy a ticket to watch a team at the stadium, get a group of like minded racists together and then try and get a seat close to the pitch then make racist chants against the players to express his racism. Now he just needs access to internet.
 
Ban said:
You 2 are still going? :)
Neville went ott but some treat it like he started a race war.
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Yeah I've been dealing with some crazy jet-leg - just arrived in France yesterday. Was up till 4am last night taking part in this!
 
Pogba has had blue hair, he dabs at carrington, had an emoji and didn't like Jose. The fans have never taken to him, he got abused by his own fans at OT last season and despite being our best outfield performer over the duration of his three years back, he's held up as the standard bearer for our decline.

Some people can't see past their own dislike to understand the issue is more with Neville bringing negativity en masses to the club, than the individual. We've had a good start to the season why isn't the focus positive. Ole doesn't need distraction.

As for Pogba's personality justifying the criticism, my hero Bryan Robson flirted with juve and has admitted he'd have liked to have moved at the time. Was caught way over the drink drive limit whilst a player at the club which is abhorrent, and was a known womaniser and massive drinker.

I suppose that's fine though. I stuck to football, didn't judge the person. He obviously wasn't the person I thought he was
 
Jordan_mufc said:
Although I agree with you, I also have to say that the media is complicit in the events that have surrounded Pogba recently. Although Neville's words may not have directly resulted in Pogba being abused, but he's feeding a narrative that has been going on for a few years. Ever since Pogba joined United, he has been subject to a media witch hunt, for reasons that we can all speculate (I suspect racial undertones myself). Gary Neville has done very little to alleviate this agenda, and even worse, has been feeding it and causing it to grow.

Neville is one of the most prominent figures in British football and I don't think it's over the top to say that if he doesn't have a go at Pogba, then the abuse may have been less severe from the idiots on Twitter.
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How many millions of people all across the globe watch televised Man Utd games? How many of those watch Gary Neville's post match punditry? Probably a tiny fraction of that number. The chances that Neville's comments were even heard by the racist twitts, let alone influenced them, are equally small.

There are numerous articles in the national media about Pogba getting racist tweets and I've not seen one of them suggesting that Neville's comments might have been a factor. Funny how it's only a small selection of Utd fans who seem to be wanting to grind that particular axe.
 
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