Paul Pogba is not lazy

Discussing if Pogba is lazy or not is really not the issue.

The problem for Pogba is football has developed into an intense, rapid fast moving sport.

Football is leaving players like Pogba behind. Look at elite kids football training - the emphasis is on intense high octane performances, quick passing, off the ball runs and closing down.

Pogbas natural game is slower, taking a touch or two , carrying the ball etc. A style more suited to Italy

If Pogba is lazy anywhere its with his own development. He became too busy focusing on where he should be best employed on the pitch under Jose (remember the endless wide on the left discussions?).

Whatever the reason for his performances at this stage the best thing for both parties would be for him to go. United are at the start of a long painful rebuilding phase.
 
Abizzz said:
It's made to look like one. That's all I can tell from the tweet you posted. Is neither here nor there either, Sky are plenty capable of spinning a narrative and running with it. The fact remains it's a "Stat" that I've never seen for any other player before... and I watch football all the time. Can you reference any other player on this forum where this stat has ever been used before?
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I'm actually a Pogba fan and I definitely want him to stay with us as long as possible, but this argument is incredible. In a bad way. Number of sprints is a commonly use statistics, and a one that is actually more important than the distance covered as it shows a more complete picture. If you haven't seen it, it's on you.

Just a single example, you can find lots. The only thing is, it's not a stat that you'll find on whoscored — Opta has a lot of statistics that they don't publish openly, because it's how they make the most of their money, on detailed statistics that are available only for their paid subscribers (clubs and journalists mostly).

Marca said:
Lionel Messi was one of the most decisive players in Saturday's Clasico, but he was able to make an impact despite hardly running. For 83.1 percent of the match the Argentine was walking, while he spent 10.8 percent of the match jogging, 4.95 percent of it running and just 1.15 percent sprinting. These stats were reported by El Periodico, who analysed his entire 90 minutes performance. It makes sense that Messi would try to conserve his energy, as he is the only Barcelona outfield player to have played every La Liga minutes so far this season.
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Stats can make any person look good.

According to the stats, Pogba runs more than Herrera, and you said Matic does 11km.

Tell me without the stats, how many times have you seen Pogba and Matic not track their runners which causes goals conceded and chances conceded?

Now tell me how many times have you seen Herrera failing to track a runner?

Don't rely on stats people. If we did, we'd all agree that Martial is better than Beckham, Ronaldo, and Giggs. After all, his agency posted that stupid comparison that made him seem better than those 3 based on stats.
 
devilish said:
Race isn't the issue. He's a Johnny foreigner, whose paid on big money and who made a career for himself despite proving SAF wrong. The least thing he can do is carry this team of honest British core (most of whom homegrown talent) to victory.

That's the vibe I usually get from people in here.
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Perhaps that is the vibe from a few but I think the question is more: is Pogba good enough to have a lower workrate? You have to build the team round him. Messi has one of the lowest work rates in football but offers so much in attacking moments and crucial moments it's accepted. Hazard often leaves his full back exposed by not tracking back but he's good enough at the other end to compensate, although when he went out of form along with the Chelsea side, he too took a lot of stick, from Mourinho as well.

I know that you point to Pogba at Juve but they have zero competition in that league and were successful to the same degree before and after him.

I think the great question is, is he the player to build your team round?
 
Slevs said:
Stats can make any person look good.

According to the stats, Pogba runs more than Herrera, and you said Matic does 11km.

Tell me without the stats, how many times have you seen Pogba and Matic not track their runners which causes goals conceded and chances conceded?

Now tell me how many times have you seen Herrera failing to track a runner?

Don't rely on stats people. If we did, we'd all agree that Martial is better than Beckham, Ronaldo, and Giggs. After all, his agency posted that stupid comparison that made him seem better than those 3 based on stats.
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This always makes me laugh.

"don't rely on stats people"

Overall the 'stats' say as a team we run the least in the league...is that a believable stat? I think it is but when the stats don't suit your personal agenda it's "don't rely on stats, people!"
 
harms said:
I'm actually a Pogba fan and I definitely want him to stay with us as long as possible, but this argument is incredible. In a bad way. Number of sprints is a commonly use statistics, and a one that is actually more important than the distance covered as it shows a more complete picture. If you haven't seen it, it's on you.
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We were not talking about number of sprints or distance covered.
 
Abizzz said:
Altidore not holding back in his reply. I agree with him (Altidore). I've never seen running broken down like this for any other player.
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It has been done for Messi, years ago. They are the only players that I can remember.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Perhaps that is the vibe from a few but I think the question is more: is Pogba good enough to have a lower workrate? You have to build the team round him. Messi has one of the lowest work rates in football but offers so much in attacking moments and crucial moments it's accepted. Hazard often leaves his full back exposed by not tracking back but he's good enough at the other end to compensate, although when he went out of form along with the Chelsea side, he too took a lot of stick, from Mourinho as well.

I know that you point to Pogba at Juve but they have zero competition in that league and were successful to the same degree before and after him.

I think the great question is, is he the player to build your team round?
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This is what I know. He was an important member of two quality sides. His attitude at those clubs wasn't the problem either. You won't get a free pass at Juventus and France that's for sure. Deschamps, Conte and Allegri are disciplinarians, the former two are Lippi's disciples, the latter makes SAF look like Kevin Keegan in terms of discipline and I assure you he drills that mentality in each and every player of his. Yet they barely ever said anything against his lack of work rate and they appreciated his contribution to their respective side. In fact I've met some Juventus fans and they are shocked about how we treated him at Cardiff. They can't understand how the same fans who constantly a chance to that wreck at the back, the fat bum on the left and the striker who needs 6 chances to score a goal would go so hard against our best player.

Sure you need to surround him with the right sort of players but that can be said about 99% of all players. Take Scholes as an example I love the guy. He is one of the most consistent playmakers I've ever seen in my lifetime. If I had to choose between him and Zidane I'd choose him all the time. However he couldn't tackle. He needs players to do that for him else he'll struggle. Let us not forget that throughout his splendid career with us Scholes played alongside Keane and then Carrick. We're talking here about 2 of the finest and most intelligent defensive midfielders of their era as well.

So here is what I think. Unless we bring in more quality players in then I refrain in judging him. Lets face it, he's not our main problem at the moment. Unlike our horde of deadwood his stats are quite encouraging. He's our main goalscorer (penalties help but lets not forget that he isn't a striker) and he's our main assist man. So lets add the players WE need (irrespective of whether Pogba stays or not) and then judge him accordingly.

My argument changes if he wants to leave. In that case we shouldn't keep him or anybody else against their will.
 
I think people have the perception that he's lazy because his off the ball game is absolutely shocking. His reading of the game is exceptionally poor for a player at a top club. Attacking wise he's brilliant but that's all he's got really!
 
fergieisold said:
I think people have the perception that he's lazy because his off the ball game is absolutely shocking. His reading of the game is exceptionally poor for a player at a top club. Attacking wise he's brilliant but that's all he's got really!
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And it's worth remembering that it's the type of player that we bought and why I didn't thought that it was a good idea. I like him for what he is and as a fan of United I'm glad that we have him but I would have never bought him in 2016, not with the team, or lack of team, that we had at the time.
 
RedDevilUnited369 said:
This always makes me laugh.

"don't rely on stats people"

Overall the 'stats' say as a team we run the least in the league...is that a believable stat? I think it is but when the stats don't suit your personal agenda it's "don't rely on stats, people!"
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Is Martial better than Giggs, Beckham, and Ronaldo? All I'm saying is view stats with some common sense.
 
Zlatattack said:
This is going to be unpopular but I was having a look at stats and he runs a lot more than many of our players, and even more than some rival players in the same position. Call him what you like but lazy shouldn't be it.

Paul Pogba ran an average of 9.96km per match this season.

Compare that to:
Herrera 8.3km
Henderson 8.02km
Kante 10.94km
Maddison 9.34km
Ramsey 6.42km
Jorginho 10.98km
David Silva 9.19km
KdB 6.97km
Son 7.2km
Eriksen 10.41km
Martial 5.95km

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison

Look under the matches tab.
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Have to admit that is very surprising. Still not great that he's behind the likes of Kante, Eriksen and and WTF Jorginho? I also quickly compared him to the likes of Bernardo Silva and last seasons Kevin De Bruyne has he's behind both of them as well but well ahead of Liverpool's workhorse midfield

I think like Berbatov his languid style is always going to count against him when people think of him as a lazy player although distance covered is different from number of sprints per game and I guess it could be argued that that's more of an important stat when assessing laziness - anyone got that number?
 
Abizzz said:
We were not talking about number of sprints or distance covered.
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I hate to break it to you, but the number of sprints is the same stat as % of walking/juggling/sprinting, just presented in a different form. And I've literally gave you an example of the use of that statistics on Messi.
 
Kudos to the posters pointing out much worse his stats are if you use per 90 minutes instead of per game.

I personally don't consider Pogba an especially lazy power. I consider him inconsistent player. When he's motivated and confident he works hard, passes brilliantly and dribbles past the opposition for fun. When he's complacent and distracted he strolls around messing up simple passes and getting tackled anytime he even thinks about taking someone on.
 
Pogba needs to do better, we all know this, but the dysfunctional mess he's playing with obviously doesn't help.

There's no point in trying to block up a hole in the side of a ship with your hands. Sometimes you just know it's futile, and fair enough, sometimes it is with us.. Why would you give everything when you know it's a bit pointless? I fecking don't! Ole needs to get the player's believing in a system of play, and once they start to see some genuine payback for their hard work we'll see different players all over the pitch.. But it starts with the coach.
 
Lazy might be a stretch, but he's not the most industrious player when the opponent has possession. Which, in a perfect midfield doesn't have to be, which you can see when he plays for France.
 
Because he is tall, lanky and lacking that small midfielder's agility, he appears to be lazy.

He did what he could, but he is not as assured when things go wrong for him.

I don't think he is lazy at all. If he is, he won't make it as a footballer.
 
Judas said:
The absolute state of Martial :lol:
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His per 90 minutes stats in the CL come out to 8.9 km. Which is still quite shit but not as breathtakingly terrible as the per match stats - which makes sense as he's often a sub.
 
KirkDuyt said:
Lazy might be a stretch, but he's not the most industrious player when the opponent has possession. Which, in a perfect midfield doesn't have to be, which you can see when he plays for France.
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I wonder if that was one of the things that attracted Mourinho (and Pep) to Fred as he had the best running stats in the Champions League the year we were after him.
 
Glad I've seen that to be honest as I'm glad he's at least fit enough.

However, just because he jogs about doesn't prove he isn't lazy. He looks unmotivated, half-arsed with his play, seems to give up when it gets tough. He doesn't play with that aggression and speed that we need at the moment.

Someone like Martial fits the above description but also barely moves too. It's a joke. I was going to say how's he getting away with it but Ole's dropped him so he's not!
 
devilish said:
This is what I know. He was an important member of two quality sides. His attitude at those clubs wasn't the problem either. You won't get a free pass at Juventus and France that's for sure.
So here is what I think. Unless we bring in more quality players in then I refrain in judging him. Lets face it, he's not our main problem at the moment. Unlike our horde of deadwood his stats are quite encouraging. He's our main goalscorer (penalties help but lets not forget that he isn't a striker) and he's our main assist man. So lets add the players WE need (irrespective of whether Pogba stays or not) and then judge him accordingly.

My argument changes if he wants to leave. In that case we shouldn't keep him or anybody else against their will.
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So, what your saying is, surround him with Kante, Mbappe and Griezmann, and he'll be great?

I admit, i rarely watch football outside of United, but, being Croatian and all that, i watched the whole WC.
And watched France play, every game.

Paul Pogba was wank. Not wank as his United games, but overall, a player who made no difference what so ever.
You could have put any player, put Tom fecking Cleverley in that France team and you wouldn't see a difference.
His passing was ordinary, key passes were non existent, i don't think he had an assist the whole tournament.

Let me get to the point....

What's the point in having a player that needs to have 2 players better then him around him to make him better?
Why doesn't he make all others around him play better?

Could you pinpoint who would that player, or players be? Who would make PP better?
 
He comes across as lazy. Literally left the Cardiff player run off him for their second goal yesterday. Was pathetic really. It's situations like that where he doesn't help himself.
 
DickDastardly said:
So, what your saying is, surround him with Kante, Mbappe and Griezmann, and he'll be great?

I admit, i rarely watch football outside of United, but, being Croatian and all that, i watched the whole WC.
And watched France play, every game.

Paul Pogba was wank. Not wank as his United games, but overall, a player who made no difference what so ever.
You could have put any player, put Tom fecking Cleverley in that France team and you wouldn't see a difference.
His passing was ordinary, key passes were non existent, i don't think he had an assist the whole tournament.

Let me get to the point....

What's the point in having a player that needs to have 2 players better then him around him to make him better?
Why doesn't he make all others around him play better?

Could you pinpoint who would that player, or players be? Who would make PP better?
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well the same when we surrounded Scholes with Keane, Beckham and Giggs or Carrick, Ronaldo and Rooney I guess. The only player I can think off who took a rather ordinary side and made it title contender was Diego Maradona. To note that Napoli of the time was way better then our side.
 
He is selectively lazy, he will just a gut going forward, when there's a chance to score or assist, you know the fun glory bringing stuff, but how many times has a player been left free because he won't do the gritty meat of a midfielders job? He's a glory hound and as talented as he is going forward we don't have a squad capable of carrying a player who only wants to do 50% of his job. Better off with two slightly less talented players with more commitment
 
Pogba has an explosive play style, he’s the 1 that’s supposed to sprint forwards and join the attack. He’s the only sprinting with the ball to carry us up the pitch - that drains stamina.

His body type is clearly fast twitch and has very little fat which is build for speed and power, but his stamina is a little slow to recover.

When you’re gassed and needing to get your breathe back you’re way more likely to not track a run or switch off, it just happens.

He clearly isn’t lazy or doesn’t care, it’s a made up narrative by the press to harm the club.

What I would say is our style of football doesn’t help, having to run the length of the pitch repeatedly isn’t good, we need to box teams in more and play in a 30 metre zone, rather than 90. Hopefully ole can get us pressing better in pre season.
 
freeurmind said:
He isn't lazy. I don't know how anyone could come to that conclusion. His body language isn't great and sometimes he isn't sprinting back but the amount of criticism he gets on here and in the media is ridiculous. Put him on Liverpool or City and he'd be a candidate for Footballer of the Year imo.
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Yes and we’ll witness this when he leaves.
 
devilish said:
well the same when we surrounded Scholes with Keane, Beckham and Giggs or Carrick, Ronaldo and Rooney I guess. The only player I can think off who took a rather ordinary side and made it title contender was Diego Maradona. To note that Napoli of the time was way better then our side.
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Ok, i get your view on the matter, and somewhat agree with you. (in the matter of bringing better players overall)

You could compare Pogba to Scholes in a matter of responsibility in making the team tick.
The raw reality is that their similarities start and end with their first name. They're both named Paul. It ends there.

You couldn't take the ball away from Scholesy, yet, you put a taller, bigger Pogba in the team and he gets disposessed like no other midfielder in the Premiership.
 
DickDastardly said:
And watched France play, every game.

Paul Pogba was wank. Not wank as his United games, but overall, a player who made no difference what so ever.
You could have put any player, put Tom fecking Cleverley in that France team and you wouldn't see a difference.
His passing was ordinary, key passes were non existent, i don't think he had an assist the whole tournament.
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:lol:
 
Adam-Utd said:
Pogba has an explosive play style, he’s the 1 that’s supposed to sprint forwards and join the attack. He’s the only sprinting with the ball to carry us up the pitch - that drains stamina.

His body type is clearly fast twitch and has very little fat which is build for speed and power, but his stamina is a little slow to recover.

When you’re gassed and needing to get your breathe back you’re way more likely to not track a run or switch off, it just happens.

He clearly isn’t lazy or doesn’t care, it’s a made up narrative by the press to harm the club.

What I would say is our style of football doesn’t help, having to run the length of the pitch repeatedly isn’t good, we need to box teams in more and play in a 30 metre zone, rather than 90. Hopefully ole can get us pressing better in pre season.
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But you see I'm receptive to the idea that there is a mismatch between what he reliably provides and what we need. That's where I have an issue with many posters, instead of discussing tactics and ways to use or not use different players, they make sweeping statements that are just dumb. For me the question is simple is the team that we want to build compatible with Pogba's strength? If it isn't just sell him, simply because he isn't compatible. But we shouldn't make ridiculous narratives that are meant to turn a cold and professional decision into a moral one.

I think that Gerrard was a great player but I would never purchase him because I wouldn't know how to use him correctly in a team that is collectively good. You could make the same argument with Ibrahimovic, he was a great player individually but the way he plays football doesn't make it easy to create a very strong first eleven. That's the issue that I have had with Pogba for years with France and why I was for his exclusion on many occasions, now France got lucky and great players that were compatible with Pogba and Deschamps magically appeared but go find United's Matuidi, Kanté, Mbappé and Griezmann, it's not simply their levels but their respective characteristics that makes it work.
 
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