Jesus
6
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 27
- Goals
- 1
- Assists
- 9
- Yellow cards
- 9
- Red cards
- 1
- Status
Could say that Mata and Pogba have been major disappointments, but I never expected great things from Mata , while Pogba....
Jesus
The drivel posted in here is some of the worst stuff on the caf. The dislike some have of Pogba is a bit sad.
That's a surprising take. You didn't expect great things from a player that was at the time the most expensive player United had ever purchased and someone that was coming off a season where he registered nearly 30 assists? The lack of contribution from Mata has been comparatively significantly worse, Pogba essentially proved to be what he was known to be by anyone that watched, while Mata was a shadow of himself from 2013 to today, it's comparable to Alexis Sanchez decline, it has been totally unexplainable.
This is very interesting, it should be a thread of it's own tbh. Would also be interesting to see this split in the PL only, not that I'm asking you to do that
Pogba being second isn't really surprising as during his time here, especially before Bruno's arrival he was the one most likely to make something happen. His performances could have been better and we expected more but he was still one of the most impactful players in most matches.
Martial being third I never would have expected, then again when he's on form he really is amazing but when off form he is terrible.
Have to say Rashford doesn't surprise me. His performances are generally not particularly impressive but he has a knack of getting key contributions despite this. For his status in our team since 2016, him being so low in this list is very poor.
Which "facts"? That Pogba has been voted MOTM 32 times over five and half seasons by caf posters who can only vote for a United player as MOTM, even if we were badly beaten that matchday?
Even if Pogba was the true MOTM 32 times in 200+ matches that's not an impressive number for a player of Pogba's undeniable world class ability. That's the point some of us are making here, that Pogba is an undeniable world class midfielder but that his performances for United have fallen far short of all reasonable expectations. No one is arguing that Pogba has been revealed to be the next Cleverly of Anderson. We have seen how brilliantly he performed for Juve and France. But for reasons that are still not clear -- it can't be all on Jose and Ole's mismanagement -- Pogba has been nowhere near the player for United that has been for Juve and France.
Hopefully that all changes once Pogba is available to Ralf. But we just can't have the Pogba we've seen for the last five and half seasons in a United short for the next five and half seasons in a United shirt.
Thanks for taking the time to write some of the stuff you have.Jesus
I'm not a huge fan of Pogba the player, but some of the hate he gets is unreal and is indeed best answered with a few green smileys.
Mata's lows weren't as a bad as Pogba's and it compensates for his lack of MotM performances. You heard it here first folks
The more you post the more irrational you sound
No worries and I don’t disagree with your postThanks for taking the time to write some of the stuff you have.
I'm not a huge fan of Pogba the player, but some of the hate he gets is unreal and is indeed best answered with a few green smileys.
Mata's lows weren't as a bad as Pogba's and it compensates for his lack of MotM performances. You heard it here first folks
Incorrect. All those things are valid criticisms. You just can’t say anything negative about Pogba as he is clearly the greatest player and human that ever lived. Must be the hair or something.
This is a funny take, if Pogba’s on the pitch when we lose, he along with Martial are usually the most slated players. In fact, one of the bigggest accusations (lies) thrown at these two is that they disappear when the going gets tough. I don’t have the stats to back it up but I’d wager that the majority of Pogba’s Redcafe man of the match awards are in games in which we’ve won.
Re: Stats and ratings for individual players (see the discussion above).
Was idly and more or less randomly browsing some stats earlier today - and if you look at Whoscored (mentioned specifically above), you frequently come across a few headscratchers. Not talking about Pogba - just in general. In some cases it is very evident that the old eye test, as biased as it may be, is preferable to the "objectivity" of sheer stats.
Just one example: according to Whoscored Cavani was exactly one percentile better in the league (sample of 26 games, 13 as a starter) last season than...Alexis Sanchez in his second season (22 games, 9 as a starter).
The same Sanchez significantly outperformed Cavani in his first season for United (12 starts). In fact, according to Whoscored Sanchez was pretty good.
In what I (and most United fans) would call reality, though, he was usually pretty shite (even in games where he did make some kind of tangible contribution). Whereas Cavani was usually good, having an obviously positive impact when he started or came on as a sub, even when he did not score/assist.
ETA An interesting comparison could be made (again, based on what was discussed above) between Caf ratings and Whoscored ratings. Randomly looking at certain matches, there are some obvious instances where the Caf (using the eye test, one has to presume, at least in the case of most voters) rated an individual player who did not stand out in a purely statistical sense significantly higher than Whoscored. There are also several cases (like I said, I've just been browsing back and forth more or less randomly here) where the Caf picked a different MOTM than Whoscored.
Was idly and more or less randomly browsing some stats earlier today - and if you look at Whoscored (mentioned specifically above), you frequently come across a few headscratchers. Not talking about Pogba - just in general. In some cases it is very evident that the old eye test, as biased as it may be, is preferable to the "objectivity" of sheer stats.
Just one example: according to Whoscored Cavani was exactly one percentile better in the league (sample of 26 games, 13 as a starter) last season than...Alexis Sanchez in his second season (22 games, 9 as a starter).
The same Sanchez significantly outperformed Cavani in his first season for United (12 starts). In fact, according to Whoscored Sanchez was pretty good.
In what I (and most United fans) would call reality, though, he was usually pretty shite (even in games where he did make some kind of tangible contribution). Whereas Cavani was usually good, having an obviously positive impact when he started or came on as a sub, even when he did not score/assist.
ETA An interesting comparison could be made (again, based on what was discussed above) between Caf ratings and Whoscored ratings. Randomly looking at certain matches, there are some obvious instances where the Caf (using the eye test, one has to presume, at least in the case of most voters) rated an individual player who did not stand out in a purely statistical sense significantly higher than Whoscored. There are also several cases (like I said, I've just been browsing back and forth more or less randomly here) where the Caf picked a different MOTM than Whoscored.
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Anything you disagree with is drivel then? I have no “dislike” for Pogba for the sake of it. You can go back to my comments from a couple of years ago and see how strongly I have defended him in the past. But the performances Pogba has served up in the last couple of years are basically a handful of world class performances mixed with a bagful of shockers.
The last couple of years would go back to just before we signed Bruno, Pogba was injured then…..so you have project restart where Pogba was very good, the end of that season the last few games his form tailed off. If you looked back you’d find more good games than bad, as always and as is the case with almost all players he had some great games in that period, some good, some poor and a couple of shockers.
Then you have last season where he started terribly, most likely due to the affects of Covid, came back around December and was largely excellent until his injury, came back from injury and again was largely excellent until the very last few games of the season, once we’d got to EL final.
The start of this season his form continued with games like Leeds, Newcastle Southampton where he was superb, then his form tailed off and he was poor in games like Leicester and Liverpool. Then again he is now injured.
So in isolation you see the injuries and the inconsistency. But football isn’t played in a vacuum and when you compare him to his teammates he’s had more good games and longer periods of good form than most. If you take Bruno, because he’s largely considered as the benchmark, for some reason, he too has had a similar amount of excellent performances but longer periods of terrible form in that time. Pogba has never had a period of poor form like Bruno has this calendar year. In fact it’s getting to the point where if you analyse Bruno’s performances game by game it’s looking like he had a great start, scored a lot of penalties after that to mask his dropping performance levels and since they were removed he’s been consistently poor with a handful of good/great performances.
Again we shouldn’t view these two players in a vacuum, how has the team performed in that time…….largely the same as the individuals. Some great performances and results, some steady performances that produced results and a lot of poor performances masking results until this season where the wheels fell off.
Southampton drew 7.1
Burnley won 8.4
Fulham won 7.9
Milan won 8.1
Spurs won 8.4
Villa won 7.4
Watford lost 6.3
Leicester won 7.7
Young boys won 8.2
Wolves drew 6.8
Newcastle won 7.7
Cardiff won 8.1
Huddersfield won 8.6
Bournemouth won 9.1
Leicester won 7.0
Fulham won 8.6
West Ham won 6.6
Swansea won 8.0
Newcastle won 8.5
Everton won 8.4
Stoke won 8.7
City won 8.4
Bournemouth won 7.2
Arsenal won 6.8
Leicester won 8.2
Fenerbache won 8.0
Swansea won 7.7
West Ham drew 6.9
Palace won 8.0
St ettienne won 7.2
Celta Vigo won 8.0
Palace won 8.0
W 28 D 3 L 1
form
6-7 5 games
7-8 9 games
8-9 17 games
9-10 1 game
So we see from this actually Pogba really only gets MOTM when his performances are very high, barring a handful (posters seem to like this term with Pogba) of decent/good outings.
Now of course this will become…Pogba has only played well in these games….well I’d forgotten most of these games myself. I’d struggle to tell you much about many of them and this being a poster who is defending Pogba against what is IMO agenda driven nonsense.
A few things that surprise me (or not)…..some really low scores in relation to performances in games he was brilliant in, Leicester at home first game of the season after World Cup 7.7, City away the game everyone talks about as his one great game 8.4, Fulham 8.6 in Ole’s caretaker game….that was 9.5 at least as a performance. Southampton away this season 7.1 can only be marked down for the result and team performance there. Etc etc.
Other games that stand out, from the top of my head, that aren’t on the list….Chelsea away in FA Cup, Arsenal away in FA Cup, a couple of league games away at Arsenal…..Not a single game from project restart is on this list. Games against City in league cup I remember the team being dreadful and Pogba playing well. Leeds at home 4 assists, So they do surprise me as games he was clearly our best player or Leeds for example it was a choice of two players who were both outstanding, and a lot of the games listed I can’t remember. A lot of games not listed I won’t remember either.
There must be absolutely boat loads of games where he was second or third, but I don’t know how they can be found.
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For comparison I’ve done the same for Bruno and there’s some interesting discrepancies, and certainly his awards fit more with what @lex talionis was questioning regarding Pogba’s MOTM awards……
Bruno :-
Sevilla Lost 6.6
Chelsea Lost 5.8
Brighton won 8.6
Spurs drew 7.3
Everton drew 7.4
Brugge won 8.6
Watford won 8.5
Spurs Lost 3.8
Everton won 8.7
West Brom won 6.9
Istanbul won 8.6
West Ham won 8.0
Leipzig lost 5.9
Leicester drew 7.5
Everton drew 7.4
Sociedad win 8.6
Liverpool lost 5.7
Leeds won 9.6
W 9 D 4 L 5
form
3-4 1 game
5-6 3 games
6-7 2 games
7-8 4 games
8-9 7 games
9-10 1 game
Bruno’s MOTM performances 33.33% of the time have come in games where he has performed between 3 and 6.9. His awards have come in results with only 50% win ratio and we’ve lost 27.77% of the games he was voted MOTM in. So it is highly likely he wasn’t the MOTM in many of these games…..but Caf can only vote for a United player.
Pogba on the other hand has only received MOTM in 15.625% of his awards where his performance was between 6-6.9. Therefore 84.375% of his awards were in games where his performances were between 7-10 and our Win % 87.5.
So it’s clear that Bruno is more likely to be favoured in games where we play poorly, there is a more positive regard in general, but I’d also say that Pogba is clearly, as has been repeatedly stated by @JPRouve, a better player in a functioning team, where Bruno is absolutely more a player you would want in a game where you’re struggling than Pogba.
I’m sure this factors in to the way people feel about Pogba too. He’s a cherry on the cake player more consistently…..but I want a great team. I don’t want to struggle and it doesn’t alter the fact that people spouting made up garbage like 1 good game in 10. A handful of good games in six seasons, who only rear their heads after a poor performance or when he’s injured are talking absolute shite.
Bruno :-
Sevilla Lost 6.6
Chelsea Lost 5.8
Brighton won 8.6
Spurs drew 7.3
Everton drew 7.4
Brugge won 8.6
Watford won 8.5
Spurs Lost 3.8
Everton won 8.7
West Brom won 6.9
Istanbul won 8.6
West Ham won 8.0
Leipzig lost 5.9
Leicester drew 7.5
Everton drew 7.4
Sociedad win 8.6
Liverpool lost 5.7
Leeds won 9.6
W 9 D 4 L 5
form
3-4 1 game
5-6 3 games
6-7 2 games
7-8 4 games
8-9 7 games
9-10 1 game
Bruno’s MOTM performances 33.33% of the time have come in games where he has performed between 3 and 6.9. His awards have come in results with only 50% win ratio and we’ve lost 27.77% of the games he was voted MOTM in. So it is highly likely he wasn’t the MOTM in many of these games…..but Caf can only vote for a United player.
Pogba on the other hand has only received MOTM in 15.625% of his awards where his performance was between 6-6.9. Therefore 84.375% of his awards were in games where his performances were between 7-10 and our Win % 87.5.
So it’s clear that Bruno is more likely to be favoured in games where we play poorly, there is a more positive regard in general, but I’d also say that Pogba is clearly, as has been repeatedly stated by @JPRouve, a better player in a functioning team, where Bruno is absolutely more a player you would want in a game where you’re struggling than Pogba.
I’m sure this factors in to the way people feel about Pogba too. He’s a cherry on the cake player more consistently…..but I want a great team. I don’t want to struggle and it doesn’t alter the fact that people spouting made up garbage like 1 good game in 10. A handful of good games in six seasons, who only rear their heads after a poor performance or when he’s injured are talking absolute shite.
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You've just written the worst Mata performances were better than Pogba's average ones which is absolute agenda driven nonsense which can be seen in that thread a freaking lot.
Or you have just wasted everyone’s time by trying to prove your point with a nonsense motm metric which only focuses on the 16% of games that Utd fans said he played better than Other Utd players. Tell me one other sport or real life scenario where that metric is useful? a guy goes out with the lads over 200 times - cheats on his wife 180 times but says to the wife...to prove I’m not as bad as you say I am let’s talk about the 40 or so times I didn’t cheat!?
I am not a poster who says Pogba has been awful generally...my issue is that he has been an entirely average part of a poor squad who has not stood out or provided leadership or taken responsibility in big games and has brought very little more then being “ok” to the team in his entire Utd career. none of this is good enough for a player of his stature and you cannot draw pointless lines in the sand to prove your point that things like expectations within a team don’t matter...if this were Fred we were talking about decent would be fine...he has a role in the team that requires consistent decent performances. But clubs have players they expect more from - to take hold of games and set tempo. As a club, if your best paid midfielder on €300k per week is basically average and has never consistently raised the level of the team- it is entirely reasonable for fans to say - DONT keep paying that guy crazy money and certainly don’t pay him more...he has been consistently underwhelming and has struggled to justify his place in the starting 11 at times, never mind him being the first name on the team sheet which he clearly thinks he should be going on the salary he is after. go pay another guy that crazy money, a guy who can actually make us tick.
Im gonna leave the conversation there and go post in a thread where reasonable differences of opinions are not disingenuously repackaged as agendas.
Wish I had a like to give, if nothing else, for the effort to prep, analyse and provide insight from the data, well done man. The perception people have of Pogba is far worse than reality in terms of performance. The part that I would most definitely agree that should be questioned about him is his availablity. Some would argue this is the most important thing for a player and where he definitely falls short in comparison to Bruno.
My criticisms are more anecdotal, one of which is the frequency at which he tends to take the foot off the gas in games where we should be showing killer instincts by continuing to play hard to translate superior ability into the scoreline. This is more a team trait than specifically about the player. E.g. when we go ahead by one score or we recover from being a goal down.This however is something Bruno or even Cavani don't seem to exhibit. Their intensity of playing rarely changes irrespective of the phase of the game. This is also a reason why I think the perception of Bruno and Cavani is generally better than reality. This second criticism however was more present under Ole than Jose and isn't really just a Pogba issue. A lot of our other players do this too. And is something I have rarely noticed when watching Liverpool, city or Chelsea. Hopefully this part changes with Raf.
Thank you. Appreciated. Yes I can certainly see your points regarding foot of the gas, another player I rate (who many don’t) Rashford can be the absolute worst for this IMO and yes it is extremely frustrating. It almost felt at times like an Ole tactic to lure teams into a false sense of security, but the sense often wasn’t false
Oh yeah Rashford for sure. I think Shaw, AWB and Martial also do this as well, hence why I think it's a team trait. The silver lining of these annoying covid breaks it's that Raf gets to have a full squad with Pogba for more games than initially thought. Assuming he stays fit for the rest of the season of course. I actually think he's likelyhood of staying is far higher than leaving. Mainly due to a lack of options for him in the market at the salary him and his agent want. Especially if Haaland and Mbappe are entering the market this season.Thank you. Appreciated. Yes I can certainly see your points regarding foot of the gas, another player I rate (who many don’t) Rashford can be the absolute worst for this IMO and yes it is extremely frustrating. It almost felt at times like an Ole tactic to lure teams into a false sense of security, but the sense often wasn’t false
No. I don't think he was ever as good as the stats made him out to be, and we were never going to build a team around him as Chelsea did to allow him to continue that output. Stats absolutely flattered him, good player, never a great, even at Chelsea. Always thought his best skill was finishing, very composed, much less creative for others than his assist stats suggested.
Pogba looked as if he could fill a desperate need, an all round CM who gave great passing creativity, someone you could build a team around. I thought he would naturally evolve and mature from a luxury attacking player to a world class midfielder and give us long term stability in that area.
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I greatly appreciate the research.
I begin with the subjective claim that Paul Pogba is a genuinely world class for footballer, the only player we’ve had over the previous five years (thus, before Ronaldo and Varane joined us this season) one could say would have featured (assuming the possibility of time travel) regularly in our 98-99 and 07-08 sides. That could be a daft claim but my point is my very high regard for Pogba’a proven ability.
The problem is that we haven’t seen the kind of world class performances from Pogba on a consistent basis in a United shirt. That’s not only not deniable but your research backs that up. We see the occasional brilliant performance, maybe even two or three straight, followed by pretty ordinary and sometimes woeful performances which leave most of us wondering WTF has happened to him.
But when he’s up for it, what a man. He toys with opposing players, igniting fantastic transitions and creating chances. The concern is that he falls off that kind of firm too often, the expansion for which we can only speculate. But we can’t be blind to the reality that Pogba drops off a steep cliff far too often for a world classfootballer.
Or is it that our expectations are unrealistic, that
Pogba really isn’t not a world class footballer and that his performances for Juve and France enabled the creation of a mythology around him? I don’t think so, but perhaps you can offer your own view of the matter. Is Pogba genuinely world class or is he overhyped and that what United have gotten out of Pogba the player, over the last five seasons, is actually nothing more than we should expected?
What you wrote is what is suprising. In the case of Mata you dismiss what he actually did for several seasons. But for Pogba you not only imagined a player that he never was "an all round CM", a player that never had a successful team built around him, a player that was heavily cirticized with the french team because when we tried to build around him it failed. And you also expected him to naturally evolve and mature into something that is not natural at all, players seldomly go from luxury attacking players to world class CM which I presume implies that he would be well rounded and a center piece. It's like staring at a pony, seeing a horse and expecting a unicorn.
Yes, maybe for Pogba I had the wrong expectations, but to go from a young attacking midfielder to a more rounded one as a player becomes more experienced is hardly an unnatural evolution. Keane was a box to box attacker who ended up a DM, Scholes started as a second striker, to attacking midfielder, to deep lying playmaker. Xavi, Pirlo, Seedorf all started off as more attacking midfielders and became deeper lying game controllers as they matured.I repeat, it is a very standard path for an attacking midfelder. Maybe I expected too much from Pogba but his talent level is immense.
Mata did great for Chelsea, but he was always an inferior player than someone like David Silva despite producing better raw numbers for a short spell, (he had already dropped off that season we bought him), and I had little expectaion he would continue that at Utd.
Come on look at the list of players you created Scholes and Pirlo finished their careers as defensively weak players, they both benefitted from the fact that their managers used their tools and didn't expect them to be well rounded. Xavi has always been well rounded, but he was mainly used as an attacking 8, the same is true for Keane. And as for Seedorf there is a short conversation about him in the Messi thread, he wasn't an all round midfielders and the way he was used will tell you that, he was mainly used as an AM or a Mezzala but whenever the team needed more steal, it's someone like Ambrosini that would play the deeper role. If anything Seedorf is an example of how Pogba was used in Italy and how he wasn't used at United.
Again what you just wrote reiterates the issues in the way some players are judged, even the standards are idealized and essentially imaginary, no one in his right mind will argue that Scholes was well rounded or even defensively competent, the same applies to Pirlo. And the reason the likes of Pirlo and Scholes successfully played deeper is because they showed game management abiilites early in their careers, Pogba didn't and that's why Conte, Allegri and Deschamps never gave him those roles. I personally don't know of a player that wasn't a game manager at all and managed to turn into one later. Silva as a 10 was a game manager and the only question about him playing deeper was from an athletic/defensive standpoint but the presence of prime Fernandinho fixed most issues. There has to be an example but it's an outlier.
If you’re now simply asking my opinion on the player I will guess that you’ve accepted that you were wildly incorrect with your recollection in the first place, as that’s important. Pogba has been far better than you recall, my stats aren’t instantly going to change your recollection, so we must accept that the way you feel he has performed is inaccurate.
My opinion is that Pogba has very definitive world class aspects to his game, but too many weaknesses in his game, make upto be considered a world class player. A player capable of world class performances but whose flaws can be exposed, particularly when played in positions that leave him vulnerable. People talk like we’ve built a team around him, or attempted to. Why would anyone play Pogba in a double pivot next to players who weren’t high energy defensive beasts to cover for his flaws, if they were indeed building around Pogba? The truth is he’s been mostly asked to adapt to us, which is fine, but is largely responsible for his inconsistent performances.
The next point I’d make is that if you’re asking a player with Pogba’s skill set and deficiencies to play in a struggling team, with very little structure and inconsistent performance levels……you will get inconsistent performances guaranteed.
Where does this leave us? Predictably he hasn’t lived up to expectations given that we have been largely inconsistent and poorly set up as a team for five years, relying on individual brilliance, rather than cohesive consistent team performance. Anyone expecting Roy Keane, Stevie G type performances simply misunderstood the player he is, and that’s not his fault. I wonder what the view of Pogba would be, if he performed the same but looked more like Modric.
Does not living up to expectations, being underwhelming and just not being downright great mean that he hasn’t outperformed his compatriots….absolutely not as the stats show. He has produced higher quality performances on a regular basis than any of his teammates and been one of our better players every season he has played for us…..given he’s actually an icing on the cake player, my personal opinion is that that in itself is some form of achievement.
As I’ve said repeatedly, people’s reflections on Pogba are wildly inconsistent with what he’s actually produced, people can’t even remember the last twelve months and you constantly trying to move goalposts, manipulate stats, or bring into question whether he actually performed well, or if the team were actually battered and he was given a token award have proven to be way off the mark. But yes thanks for the research indeed.
I’m not interested in a back and forth with anyone who can’t recall anything like an accurate assessment as it’s not going to change anything, you’ve built up this alternate reality in any case. All of our high quality offensive players have been equally or more inconsistent and unless we improve as a team, the downward spiral of performances from all our attacking talents will not decline.
The point was, and remains….bumping a thread because you’ve plucked some random figure out of your arse and stated it as fact, then stating it as a mind blowing fact….is in itself mind blowing and has been proven to be totally inaccurate.
Just going through his history, it's crazy how far his stock fell after his Utd move.
At Juve, he made the most appearances when they won the league by a record number of points, at 21. Made a CL final, won the Golden Boy award, got on the shortlist for Men's Player of the Year, shortlisted for Ballon D'or, etc all at a very young age.
He was meant to be an all-time great, but the years seem to have just slipped by and it didn't happen. Fine he won a World Cup and got to a Euros final being a key player, but his overall perception as a player now is far below what it should have been.
At Juve, he made the most appearances when they won the league by a record number of points, at 21. Made a CL final, won the Golden Boy award, got on the shortlist for Men's Player of the Year, shortlisted for Ballon D'or, etc all at a very young age.
He was meant to be an all-time great, but the years seem to have just slipped by and it didn't happen. Fine he won a World Cup and got to a Euros final being a key player, but his overall perception as a player now is far below what it should have been.
Story of every United player the past few years really.
Bruno has done alright though. Although he gets plenty of leeway in what he does.
IMO if pogba had that type of freedom and didn't get crucified losing the ball as much as Bruno then I think his technical ability will mean some pretty nice assists.
Great player when the team is functioning well, less so in our situation. We fans expected him to carry the team and it's obvious (now) that he isn't that sort of player.
Would we be doing better if he was playing? Instead of a non functioning non footballing midfield. We still look awfully exposed, but when Pogba played he was apparently the main reason for this.
Please Pogba, come back
Can't match this drip.
To think he started the season so well, then went back to his usual joggy self, then got injured and now he doesn't even want to come back for training.
Feels like Pogba has spent half his time at united injured and when he’s injured it’s always many weeks to recover. Current thigh injury taking forever to heal it seems.. I hope we can sell him in this window and use the money on a CDM but looks like he will run out his contract and become a free agent In summer.
He has zero loyalty or interest in the club imo.
He has zero loyalty or interest in the club imo.
nope! I can see a woman on the rear glass
Ah the usual hyperbole nonsense on here. The only player in our team who gets shit on for being injured.
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