[Smores]

It really isn’t. Saying Pogba has been brilliant is a ridiculous claim. Saying he’s been one of our best performing players is a statement of fact.

You fanboys are crazy, statement of fact

I'm not even sure Pogba has completed a single season of consistently high performances for us. Arguably the first season the rest have been littered with periods of torrid form and lapses of concentration that cost the team.

All these constant threads about how he's not been utilised correctly, we need to play him elsewhere, we need to change the formation. Those are not the signs of a player performing to a consistently high standard.

 

[Cassidy]

How is he outperforming most of the squad? All that stat shows is that in16% of games he was considered by Utd fans to be the best Utd player on the pitch. That proves nothing. Does that mean he has been consistently good? Not at all.

So I said...if we want to measure consistency then we need to look at his actual performance ratings...average them out...then you ask...do we expect more then let’s say an average of 6.5 from our star midfielder...if so...he hasn’t been worth it and is certainly not worth a pay rise and an extension!

There are plenty of stats that show he has been one of our best performers when fit, ones that have nothing to do with Redcafe, just go and have a look at whoscored.
You choose to ignore all of that and expect everyone to base their opinion on your eye test?

The stats show he has been one of the top performers.
I can accept that fans had higher expectations than that since United performance levels haven't been that great, but that has nothing to do with the point I just made.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

He said he has produced MOTM performances about 12 times, he hasn’t it’s many more. As for best of a bad bunch the vast majority of those MOTM performances his rating was 8 and above. The second poster said that 32 was ‘wank’…..well then every player we have had in the last five years has been wank and below.

Basically true. I assume you’ve actually watched us over the last 5 years?

Obviously, repeatedly phoning in wank performances is more of an issue with some players than others because - amazingly - expectations are higher with some players than others.

 

[Jeppers7]

@Pogue Mahone exposed again in a Pogba thread, as a lurker I remember how revered he was, laughable at this point.

The man hasn’t played in weeks yet his performance thread still draws the ire of the same old posters. The man is leaving, surely we should be more concerned about Caf faves like our £80mil captain.

Mata point is poignant, it’s the same nonsense we saw with Herrera, ‘he gets the club, nice guy’ nonsense which ignores the rather blatant reason Martial & Pogba draw more criticism despite greater impact on the whole.


Summed up brilliantly again. Saying he’s been one of our best performers in a poor period is just honesty.

It really is. He’s been an absolute disaster of a signing and rinsed the club for millions. Thanks for Juanfield and a handful of other performances and that’s about it. He’s not been a regular since about his second or third season.

 

[Smores]

That's an interesting suggestion. If we go by Whoscored, among players that played at least 19 games, Pogba was our best performer in the league during his first three seasons.

Yet didn't win our player of the season in any of them. How strange.

 

[Jeppers7]

I totally agree with anyone thinking that Pogba wasn't worth his transfer fee, it was my opinion in 2016 and it has been vindicated since that time. His wage isn't actually high for a superstar and someone with his commercial appeal, so there is no way that I will have an issue with it when there are dozens of players earning more, it's worth keeping in mind that United wages include image rights which isn't the case for many of the top earners in Spain. I also agree with the idea that he should have been sold in 2019 simply because I don't think that he was a good fit for United and it would have been the best thing to recoup part of his transfer fee and reinvest that money.

Now none of that justify people talking absolute nonsense about him or his actual performances.

Here here

 

[Pogue Mahone]

What posters are doing here, and I’m sure you’ve recognised this, is adjusting the assessment criteria between two connected but separate factors.
One is a players contribution full stop, the other is their contribution relative to what the fans expected. I don’t think it’s even difficult to understand.

Never underestimate the potential for people on here to struggle with basic concepts.

 

[captaincantona]

I totally agree with anyone thinking that Pogba wasn't worth his transfer fee, it was my opinion in 2016 and it has been vindicated since that time. His wage isn't actually high for a superstar and someone with his commercial appeal, so there is no way that I will have an issue with it when there are dozens of players earning more, it's worth keeping in mind that United wages include image rights which isn't the case for many of the top earners in Spain. I also agree with the idea that he should have been sold in 2019 simply because I don't think that he was a good fit for United and it would have been the best thing to recoup part of his transfer fee and reinvest that money.

Now none of that justify people talking absolute nonsense about him or his actual performances.

Well we are on the same page in every sense except that I do not think his performances have been as good as some posters.

 

[Jeppers7]

Basically true. I assume you’ve actually watched us over the last 5 years?

Obviously, repeatedly phoning in wank performances is more of an issue with some players than others because - amazingly - expectations are higher with some players than others.

I’m a season ticket holder in the stretford end….so yes.

Moving the goalposts has nothing to do with the post I replied to.

The rest is just your own irrational responses.

 

[Cassidy]

What posters are doing here, and I’m sure you’ve recognised this, is adjusting the assessment criteria between two connected but separate factors.
One is a players contribution full stop, the other is their contribution relative to what the fans expected. I don’t think it’s even difficult to understand.

Except that is not what this poster was doing. Since they explicitly responded to my post which said the same thing and disagreed.

 

[JPRouve]

Well we are on the same page in every sense except that I do not think his performances have been as good as some posters.

And the issue is that your opinion doesn't match what the caf thought in the MOTM polls nor what a neutral website thought, which should logically make you question your own version of events.

 

[Smores]

And the issue is that your opinion doesn't match what the caf thought in the MOTM polls nor what a neutral website thought, which should logically make you question your own version of events.

Shall we play this game with the stats on which players make the most mistakes?

You might then realise why there's a gap. No one is saying he never has great games just that he has many wank ones too which is the issue.

A player of his price and he's been in team of the season once, never won our player of the season trophy, repeatedly ranked in top 10 mistakes in the league, never found a position he excels in.

Even if his wages were half what they are he can't be trusted to perform in any position we play him in.

 

[Tarrou]

I think Pogba has more than his fair share of stinkers which contributes heavily to the overall opinion on his time here

but he's been great loads of times too

depending on whether you're a Pogba fan or not you probably remember more of one end of the spectrum

 

[Pogue Mahone]

And the issue is that your opinion doesn't match what the caf thought in the MOTM polls nor what a neutral website thought, which should logically make you question your own version of events.

All those MOTM polls confirm is how poorly the whole team have been playing over the last few years (as well as the usual bias towards creative/attacking players) The fact De Gea is top five and Martial top three says it all. Being best of a bad lot means very little about overall quality. Someone has to win MOTM every game after all.

The only slight surprise is Bruno not polling higher but he hasn’t been here very long and has been in pretty terrible form for a while now.

 

[Cassidy]

Shall we play this game with the stats on which players make the most mistakes?

You might then realise why there's a gap. No one is saying he never has great games just that he has many wank ones too which is the issue.

In comparison to his teammates?

 

[JPRouve]

Shall we play this game with the stats on which players make the most mistakes?

You might then realise why there's a gap. No one is saying he never has great games just that he has many wank ones too which is the issue.

You are clutching here. Did someone suggest that Pogba was a perfect players or that there was nothing to criticize in his game? Or did the post that you quoted mention the fact that the caf and neutral observers estimated that he was our best performers more than for other players?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Shall we play this game with the stats on which players make the most mistakes?

You might then realise why there's a gap. No one is saying he never has great games just that he has many wank ones too which is the issue.

A player of his price and he's been in team of the season once, never won our player of the season trophy, repeatedly ranked in top 10 mistakes in the league, never found a position he excels in.

Even if his wages were half what they are he can't be trusted to perform in any position we play him in.

I think that’s another important point. A steady 7/10 player is a far greater asset than someone who oscillates between 8 and 4. Although the latter will obviously win more MOTM awards.

 

[Cassidy]

All those MOTM polls confirm is how poorly the whole team have been playing over the last few years (as well as the usual bias towards creative/attacking players) The fact De Gea is top five and Martial top three says it all. Being best of a bad lot means very little about overall quality. Someone has to win MOTM every game after all.

The only slight surprise is Bruno not polling higher but he hasn’t been here very long and has been in pretty terrible form for a long time now.

Besides the point, the point was that he has been one of OUR top performers.
If we rank him against the rest of the league and players in other sides, or vs his transfer fee and expectations then that's a different story.

Most of the posters have already said as much too.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Besides the point, the point was that he has been one of OUR top performers.
If we rank him against the rest of the league and players in other sides, or vs his transfer fee and expectations then that's a different story.

Most of the posters have already said as much too.

He’s been our best performer in less than 1 in 5 games. How he performed in the other 4 games is a better barometer of how well he’s played for us overall. And I suspect the answer is “badly”.

 

[JPRouve]

All those MOTM polls confirm is how poorly the whole team have been playing over the last few years (as well as the usual bias towards creative/attacking players) The fact De Gea is top five and Martial top three says it all. Being best of a bad lot means very little about overall quality. Someone has to win MOTM every game after all.

The only slight surprise is Bruno not polling higher but he hasn’t been here very long and has been in pretty terrible form for a long time now.

That leads to two questions. Why is Pogba isolated if everyone else is worse? And don't you think that the performances of a midfielder will be greatly affected by the fact that he is surrounded by a "bad lot"?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

For a player who blows so hot and cold it would be weird if Pogba didn’t pick up a relatively high number of MOTM awards.

Emphasis on “relatively”…

 

[Pogue Mahone]

That leads to two questions. Why is Pogba isolated if everyone else is worse? And don't you think that the performances of a midfielder will be greatly affected by the fact that he is surrounded by a "bad lot"?

I don’t understand the first question and I refer you to Steven Gerrard in answer to the second.

 

[Cassidy]

He’s been our best performer in less than 1 in 5 games. How he performed in the other 4 games is a better barometer of how well he’s played for us overall. And I suspect the answer is “badly”.

His overall performance stats vs the rest of the squad, he is one of the best performers, relative the rest of the team.
Not talking about MOTM or his best games. Considering all his games, he outperforms the majority of his teammates.

It isn't that hard though since most of them lack real quality anyway, but again that is besides the point.

 

[roonster09]

So Pogba has second best Man Of the match/Total matches played percentage, but few hear said caf hates Pogba?

So did they vote Pogba even thought they hate him or did they start hating him from last season?

Anyways, Pogba has been one of our best players since his signing. Also Pogba just like any other player was inconsistent as we didn't have a system to bring best out of team. Last time when he played as a team was under Van Gaal, after that we had 0 team work in our game. So just like team, players were inconsistent when they couldn't pull those magical passes all the time.

Also yes he was defensive liability, so we should be questioning why managers played him in deeper role.

 

[JPRouve]

I don’t understand the first question and I refer you to Steven Gerrard in answer to the second.

Gerrard has never consistently played well while being surrounded by a bad lot, he also hasn't been performing well within a disfunctioning english national team, which is why he has won the grand total of zero league titles. And the first question is why do you isolate Pogba when you consider that his positive evaluations are only the fruit of being surrounded by dross, shouldn't you focus on the dross?

 

[Cassidy]

Funny enough we see the same issue with Bruno Fernandes now...

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Gerrard has never consistently played well while being surrounded by a bad lot, he also hasn't been performing well within a disfunctioning english national team, which is why he has won the grand total of zero league titles. And the first question is why do you isolate Pogba when you consider that his positive evaluations are only the fruit of being surrounded by dross, shouldn't you focus on the dross?

Steven Gerrard was the most important player in Liverpool teams full of very average players that won major trophies. He almost single-handedly won a number of huge games in that time. Legitimate match-winning performances that Pogba has hardly ever produced at United.

I don’t “isolate” Pogba. This is the Pogba thread. In which Pogba gets discussed.

 

[Smores]

In comparison to his teammates?

On what metric, I'd say on great games he's in the top 5 arguably top 3 and on terrible games the worst 5. He's been the player who makes the most mistakes per minute in the team and one of the worst in the league too.

When you sign a player who is supposed to be the star and he's up and down that's a huge issue. His inconsistency and mistakes will mean ultimately he's been a flop when he leaves, he can't possibly be considered one of our best players just based on half the picture.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

His overall performance stats vs the rest of the squad, he is one of the best performers, relative the rest of the team.
Not talking about MOTM or his best games. Considering all his games, he outperforms the majority of his teammates.

It isn't that hard though since most of them lack real quality anyway, but again that is besides the point.

Actually that’s exactly the point. Expectations differ and you can’t discuss performances in isolation from expectations.

 

[Cassidy]

Actually that’s exactly the point. Expectations differ and you can’t discuss performances in isolation from expectations.

Of course, you can.
If someone says he performed better than his teammates, then that's what they are saying, that's nothing to do with the expectations.
The posts today were saying exactly that.
He hasn't lived up to expectations especially has not justified the fee.
He has also outperformed the majority of his teammates.

It is not that hard to grasp what people are saying here.

 

[Cassidy]

On what metric, I'd say on great games he's in the top 5 arguably top 3 and on terrible games the worst 5. He's been the player who makes the most mistakes per minute in the team and one of the worst in the league too.

When you sign a player who is supposed to be the star and he's up and down that's a huge issue. His inconsistency and mistakes will mean ultimately he's been a flop when he leaves, he can't possibly be considered one of our best players just based on half the picture.

On his overall ratings on objective sites like whoscored.

Depends what you are counting as a mistake here?

 

[VanDeBank]

mots not that difficult. If McT doesn’t play well it’s not as big of an issue because his status in the squad is a youth player being used to bolster your midfield- not a first name on the team sheet player- which Paul Pogba is paid as

If McTominay is a youth player, so is Pogba (and Lingard).

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Of course, you can.
If someone says he performed better than his teammates, then that's what they are saying, that's nothing to do with the expectations.
The posts today were saying exactly that.
He hasn't lived up to expectations especially has not justified the fee.
He has also outperformed the majority of his teammates.

It is not that hard to grasp what people are saying here.

People are saying he won man of the match more often than a bunch of underperforming players. In less than 1 game in 5.

The response to this has been

a) that’s best of a bad bunch

b) it’s possible to be the best player once every five games and still be one of the poorer overall performers. Consistency matters.

I haven’t seen any convincing counter-argument to b)

 

[JPRouve]

Steven Gerrard was the most important player in Liverpool teams full of very average players that won major trophies. He almost single-handedly won a number of huge games in that time. Legitimate match-winning performances that Pogba has hardly ever produced at United.

I don’t “isolate” Pogba. This is the Pogba thread. In which Pogba gets discussed.

Which major trophies has he won while being surrounded by average players? Are you talking about the trophies won while having the likes of Owen, Hamann, Xabi Alonso,, Gerrard, Babbel, Fowler or Hyypia as teammates? Gerrard has won two major titles both cups and he had world class teammates in all of them.
If we follow your point we may as well give Pogba a statue, he won the EL with a bad lot and actually won the player of the tournament award.

 

[Cassidy]

People are saying he won man of the match more often than a bunch of underperforming players. In less than 1 game in 5.

The response to this has been

a) that’s best of a bad bunch

b) it’s possible to be the best player once every five games and still be one of the poorer overall performers. Consistency matters.

I haven’t seen any convincing counter-argument to b)

That was one thing said in the conversation, one metric used, there have been others also.
With respect to b his overall ratings in all games vs his teammates on actual statical analysis sites that remove fan bias.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

That was one thing said in the conversation, one metric used, there have been others also.
With respect to b his overall ratings in all games vs his teammates on actual statical analysis sites that remove fan bias.

Ah. Ok. Which post are those in?

 

[RUCK4444]

Actually that’s exactly the point. Expectations differ and you can’t discuss performances in isolation from expectations.

That only makes sense if the expectations were reasonable.

My argument since his arrival is that our expectations should have been tempered with a number of points relating to the player. I've mentioned these a million times here and been shot down, ever since he arrived.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

All those MOTM polls confirm is how poorly the whole team have been playing over the last few years (as well as the usual bias towards creative/attacking players) The fact De Gea is top five and Martial top three says it all. Being best of a bad lot means very little about overall quality. Someone has to win MOTM every game after all.

The only slight surprise is Bruno not polling higher but he hasn’t been here very long and has been in pretty terrible form for a while now.

So if they confirm how poorly the team has performed as a whole why are you pitching up in the performance thread of an injured player when others have performed worse?

We know Pogba is leaving, as a fanbase we’re all disappointed in the player to varying degrees but you’re recycling the same old vitriol in here instead of focusing on players that we’ll be lumbered with beyond this season despite being worse than a disappointing Pogba. Bizarre.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

That only makes sense if the expectations were reasonable.

My argument since his arrival is that our expectations should have been tempered with a number of points relating to the player. I've mentioned these a million times here and been shot down, ever since he arrived.

As seems to be the case with our £80mil captain that the Caf still want to proclaim is only in bad form because, ‘lindelof, bailly, DdG doesn’t come off his line, he’s unfit’ etc.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

It really is. He’s been an absolute disaster of a signing and rinsed the club for millions. Thanks for Juanfield and a handful of other performances and that’s about it. He’s not been a regular since about his second or third season.

People will say it’s because he’s ‘loyal’, ‘never spoken bad about the club when not playing’ etc. when actually his form has fallen off a cliff, never recovering & the fact he’s been happy to re-sign knowing he’s not really in management’s plans is in a sense taking the piss out of the club & blocking younger players paths.

At no point since joint has his form commanded the attention of rival clubs, it’s easy to be loyal when nobody wants you.