[Marwood]

He has progressed, his defensive awareness is better today and he is also better at picking his moments with the ball. And no I wouldn't expect him to be complete based on the 23 years old version, the 23 years old version was not complete at all and while I hoped that he could somehow be a complete midfielder, I didn't expect it because it's fairly rare for players to reinvent themselves, it happens but we need to keep in mind that out of hundreds of top league players only a few drastically change their game or their understanding of the game.

Also it's probably worth making it clear, for me expectation is what I believe will happen while hope is what I want to see happen. This distinction is probably a cause of the divide between my viewpoint and others.

I don't think a midfielder fully maturing from 23 to 28 is the same as reinventing themselves.

Its the natural development that should be expected of top talents. It's happened countless times

If for example Rashford is pretty much the same player in five years as he is now I think that'd be a dissapointment.

I think you're still judging Pogba by the player he was at Juve, with little further expectation. Which to my mind is wrong. He should be considerably better by now and his performances judged in that fashion.

In terms of improved defensive awareness I'm not seeing that at all. I think he's a nightmare in his own third. He's pretty much said that himself.

 

[Rozay]

Pogba's potential was to be one of the top 3 midfielders in the world on a regular base, possible Ballon d'Or candidate and much more deciding player in the final 3rd based on his Juventus spell, especially when you know that midfielders mature and grow later in their game. He was not being close to that, actually he didn't come close to being named United POTY once which is astonishing based on his potential at the time when he was bought. Potential is not a fantasy btw as been said, it is based on players ability or objective parameters which you see and compare with other players at such a young age. There were mitigating factors in terms of us being collectively shit in his time here, but all together and at this point in time it is leaning for "disappointing" mark if this is the end of the road for him here despite flashes of brilliance now and then.

And that is fine, most people don't fulfil their potential and expectations of that magnitude (more so if you don't allow the proper circumstances for it to happen).
But, damn, to sit here and turn the narrative into oh well, fool is on us for thinking he is something else once we were buying him is mind boggling. Yeah, he is still frustrating like he was in Juventus looking for a certain period like he can dominate any team in the world and the next time like he is uncapable of a simple 10 yard pass. That shouldn't be the case with a player 5 years later into his career.

If he literally didn’t move and continued doing what he was doing at Juventus, he absolutely would be considered a top 3 midfielder in the world.

The reality is, if you watch the so-called better midfielders as closely for 38 games and compare objectively, they probably aren’t better at all. Maybe a couple. But certainly not the likes of Henderson or whoever. With me, I’m not even going into potential. I’m saying the player he is RIGHT NOW is far better than he gets credit for. He suddenly gets that credit in a blue shirt, because of his team’s success, and I believe he would get that credit at club level of his team were successful too.

Nobody actually cares to microanalyse when these so-called top 3 or top 5 or whatever midfielders give away a pass, don’t score 20 goals from a midfield 2 or whatever. Their teams win trophies, and we view them more ‘generally speaking‘ as good before bad. No other player would actually stand up well to the micro scrutiny that Pogba gets, but they don’t get it. I see Toni Kroos dispossessed easily, I see players run off him, and I also see him return far less goals and assists than Pogba but nobody cares. I can absolutely guarantee you that they would suddenly care more if he were at a 5th place United. Whatever it is he has gotten away with doing at Real simply wouldn’t be seen as ‘enough’ in a failing team. Kanté is everyone’s favourite. Put him at United, who are expected to finish first but finish 4th, and his ‘simply winning the ball back’ would not be viewed as enough, people will start asking for the rest like why doesn’t he score more, why doesn’t he create more etc. Because ultimately, the team is not a winning team so the players playing for the team can’t universally be viewed as doing well enough.

Pogba could go through the Euros and play well and not score a single goal, for example, and still collect a medal and praise for his personal contribution. We’ve had many in this thread over the season presenting goal stats, why not more goals etc. Nobody will care that a player ran off him once or twice, or a pass was sloppy. They will focus on the good things he did, because whatever his contribution was, it was a winning one.

One of the saddest things is that people simply haven’t taken the time to enjoy a terrific player playing in our league, and it’s a shame. Forget hypothetical potential, there has actually been far more good moments than people seem to appreciate. He has his bad games, of course, but he plays well plenty for United too. When he leaves, it will be written that he didn’t.

 

[villain]

The reality is, if you watch the so-called better midfielders as closely for 38 games and compare objectively, they probably aren’t better at all.

This is it.

You'd think the likes of Modric, Kroos, Kimmich, De Jong etc are consistently playing 10/10 games 2x a week, and on top of that, these midfielders are often playing in teams that have been better than ours.

 

[JPRouve]

I don't think a midfielder fully maturing from 23 to 28 is the same as reinventing themselves.

Its the natural development that should be expected of top talents. It's happened countless times

If for example Rashford is pretty much the same player in five years as he is now I think that'd be a dissapointment.

I think you're still judging Pogba by the player he was at Juve, with little further expectation. Which to my mind is wrong. He should be considerably better by now and his performances judged in that fashion.

In terms of improved defensive awareness I'm not seeing that at all. I think he's a nightmare in his own third. He's pretty much said that himself.

It would be reinveting himself because Pogba wasn't a complete midfielder, he wasn't close to be a complete midfielder at 23, he didn't had the mentality nor the skills of a complete midfielder. He was an attacking minded center midfielder with clear defiencies when it came to control possession and defending proactively, for most players these things are developed at youth level between 16 and 23 years old, the next phase being to find a way to adapt to senior football and improve skills that they already possess. In the case of Pogba people expected him to learn skills or develop a mindset that he didn't had because he was a 10 at youth level and why SAF didn't play him at 18-19 years old.

And your last point is interesting because you seem to not realize that Pogba was worse defensively, his awareness was way worse than it is today, the one thing that he had at 23 years old is that he was a better athlete and could save some of the mistakes he would make through sheer athleticism. In 2021 Pogba is an excellent footballer but he has flaws and those flaws match the way he has been developed from age 16 to today.

 

[Marwood]

If you follow the timeline of agent comments and negative sentiment, you will see that the latter began way before the former in his time here. When the agent comments later on arrived, they were clung too in order to rationalise what was likely partially irrational. Agents have always; and will continue to talk shit about player’s futures, but never have I seen it apparently offend everyone as much as this situation.

I couldn't even name most players agents never mind recount examples of them talking like Pogba's.

Only comparable agent behaviour at United I can remember is Kia Joorabchian and Tevez.

This type of thing is rare.

 

[Jim Beam]

If he literally didn’t move and continued doing what he was doing at Juventus, he absolutely would be considered a top 3 midfielder in the world.

The reality is, if you watch the so-called better midfielders as closely for 38 games and compare objectively, they probably aren’t better at all. Maybe a couple. But certainly not the likes of Henderson or whoever. With me, I’m not even going into potential. I’m saying the player he is RIGHT NOW is far better than he gets credit for. He suddenly gets that credit in a blue shirt, because of his team’s success, and I believe he would get that credit at club level of his team were successful too.

Nobody actually cares to microanalyse when these so-called top 3 or top 5 or whatever midfielders give away a pass, don’t score 20 goals from a midfield 2 or whatever. Their teams win trophies, and we view them more ‘generally speaking‘ as good before bad. No other player would actually stand up well to the micro scrutiny that Pogba gets, but they don’t get it. I see Toni Kroos dispossessed easily, I see players run off him, and I also see him return far less goals and assists than Pogba but nobody cares. I can absolutely guarantee you that they would suddenly care more if he were at a 5th place United. Whatever it is he has gotten away with doing at Real simply wouldn’t be seen as ‘enough’ in a failing team. Kanté is everyone’s favourite. Put him at United, who are expected to finish first but finish 4th, and his ‘simply winning the ball back’ would not be viewed as enough, people will start asking for the rest like why doesn’t he score more, why doesn’t he create more etc. Because ultimately, the team is not a winning team so the players playing for the team can’t universally be viewed as doing well enough.

Pogba could go through the Euros and play well and not score a single goal, for example, and still collect a medal and praise for his personal contribution. We’ve had many in this thread over the season presenting goal stats, why not more goals etc. Nobody will care that a player ran off him once or twice, or a pass was sloppy. They will focus on the good things he did, because whatever his contribution was, it was a winning one.

One of the saddest things is that people simply haven’t taken the time to enjoy a terrific player playing in our league, and it’s a shame. Forget hypothetical potential, there has actually been far more good moments than people seem to appreciate. He has his bad games, of course, but he plays well plenty for United too. When he leaves, it will be written that he didn’t.

Good post, will try to come back at you later for few things I disagree, but in general I know what are you getting at and yes, if we were more successful during his time here he would be certainly more appreciated.

And that first sentence is definitely true to some extent pending on Juventus collecting trophies. Especially, knowing our fans thinking and that constant "he should have been ours" crying while he was there. He would 100% been seen in a different and much more positive light which is quite absurd in its own way.

 

[Rozay]

Good post, will try to come back at you later for few things I kind of disagree, but in general I know what are you getting at and yes, if we were more successful during his time here he would be certainly more appreciated.

And that first sentence is definitely true to some extent pending on Juventus collecting trophies. Especially, knowing our fans thinking and that constant "he should have been ours" crying while he was there. He would 100% been seen in a different and much more positive light which is quite absurd in its own way.

Thank you sir, and I await your further response.

Just to reinforce the Juventus point, many people at the time thought that we were already getting a top 3 midfielder in the world when we signed him from Juve, and that player wasn’t even as good as the one we have now! In England at the time, the consensus was absolutely that he was one of the best, if not the best midfielder in the world. Which is probably why our fans expected him to sign for Real or Barcelona in the first place, and couldn’t and still can’t believe that he would actually want to play for us.

Juve had won 4 titles on the spin and gotten to a CL final. Players in teams like that are distilled down to a highlight showreel of their best bits, and Pogba’s best bits were damn impressive. So nobody cared about tracking runners, and if he stayed there another 5 years, nobody would still care about tracking runners till this day (as you said, provided that Juve kept winning trophies) and he would, the exact same player, be seen as one of the best, if not the best MF in the world, especially when coupled with his success for France. The evidence used would be all the good things he’s done.

That analogy is the same whether applied to any top midfielder, be it Paul Scholes, Toni Kroos, Kimmich or whoever. I’m willing to bet that the average fan on the caf would struggle to name 3 bad games Scholes had for United in his entire career. Not just because it’s far in the past, but even the very day he retired. Nobody cares. We probably didn’t even care immediately after the games, because we likely still won. And if we didn’t we still won the league anyway!

 

[Oranges038]

It would be reinveting himself because Pogba wasn't a complete midfielder, he wasn't close to be a complete midfielder at 23, he didn't had the mentality nor the skills of a complete midfielder. He was an attacking minded center midfielder with clear defiencies when it came to control possession and defending proactively, for most players these things are developed at youth level between 16 and 23 years old, the next phase being to find a way to adapt to senior football and improve skills that they already possess. In the case of Pogba people expected him to learn skills or develop a mindset that he didn't had because he was a 10 at youth level and why SAF didn't play him at 18-19 years old.

And your last point is interesting because you seem to not realize that Pogba was worse defensively, his awareness was way worse than it is today, the one thing that he had at 23 years old is that he was a better athlete and could save some of the mistakes he would make through sheer athleticism. In 2021 Pogba is an excellent footballer but he has flaws and those flaws match the way he has been developed from age 16 to today.

The way he has been developed suggests that it's not his fault at all, that it's the fault of all the coaches and managers he's had for the last 12 years.

I love that you keep making exuses for his lack of development and improving the weaknesses in his game. It's cute.

 

[Marwood]

It would be reinveting himself because Pogba wasn't a complete midfielder, he wasn't close to be a complete midfielder at 23, he didn't had the mentality nor the skills of a complete midfielder. He was an attacking minded center midfielder with clear defiencies when it came to control possession and defending proactively, for most players these things are developed at youth level between 16 and 23 years old, the next phase being to find a way to adapt to senior football and improve skills that they already possess. In the case of Pogba people expected him to learn skills or develop a mindset that he didn't had because he was a 10 at youth level and why SAF didn't play him at 18-19 years old.

And your last point is interesting because you seem to not realize that Pogba was worse defensively, his awareness was way worse than it is today, the one thing that he had at 23 years old is that he was a better athlete and could save some of the mistakes he would make through sheer athleticism. In 2021 Pogba is an excellent footballer but he has flaws and those flaws match the way he has been developed from age 16 to today.

No CM's are complete at 23. Or very, very few are anyway. This idea Pogba couldn't develop into a fully rounded player at 28 because he wasn't at 23 is a new one to me.

Keane wasn't controlling possession at 23. Modric and Schweinsteiger I don't think were even CM's at 23. Yet they all ended up being fully rounded CM's by 28.

Being incomplete at 23 doesn't stop a top player from developing into fully matured, rounded CM at 28. If anything that's the established path of most top CM's.

He's got what it takes it's just been a question of determination or a willingness to develop his game.

Are we saying Rashford can't be a complete wide forward at 28 because he currently isn't at 23?

Course not.

 

[Brwned]

Perhaps.

Although I disagree with the use of ‘how little love he had for us’ being presented as ‘fact’. It has indeed been a running suspicion that Pogba apparently doesn’t care about United, but I doubt it’s true personally. I think fans have always openly spoken as if he seemingly loves Real Madrid more than he loves United, for example, and that is based on little to nothing other than it making sense to some that he probably wants to go to Real. I think he loves United a lot, if not for logic more than anything else. He’s spent most of his adulthood here, has lifetime friends etc.

But I do agree that his previous departure is likely to have left some sort of imprint. Stands to reason. Perhaps that’s why many fans haven’t warmed to him. Being on this forum, I’d say he is almost viewed the way I’d expect a Real Madrid player on loan to Manchester United to be viewed, than a United player, let alone one who actually came through our academy.

The number one issue though, to me, is that the team simply hasn’t been successful. I think the exact same Pogba is viewed massively differently if our couple of second place finishes were actually first, for example. Even the season that has just finished is getting re-written to have been worse and worse than it was being analysed in real time, and despite a number of good MOTM performances for us just this season, a narrative has already developed as to him playing well for France but not United. I think the main difference between the two is that France is the best team and United isn’t. Not in the sense that ‘he has Kante and Mbappé with France’, but simply the fact that the players are all generally speaking, viewed as a success first and foremost, whereas at United - we are failing. Like, I don’t think Pogba at the World Cup was that special. If France went out in the quarter finals of that WC, it would have been said that he didn’t do enough IMO. Because a failing team with the talent of Paul Pogba leads to the question as to why he didn’t ‘drive his team to victory’, with some sort of montage of all of the very best bits of Yaya, KDB, Keane etc seen as the standard. Pogba’s contribution for France isn’t questioned because he’s doing his bit and they are winning.

I don’t think it’s fact I think it’s pure speculation whether he loves us or hates us, there’s no confirmatory evidence anywhere just lots of contradictory evidence layered on top of imagination and previously held views. In which case all views are equally valid or invalid as far as I’m concerned. Not something worth arguing about unless it’s purely to waste time, because there’s nothing in it that will persuade one side the other is right when it’s obvious the other side is relying on speculation to justify their views.

Agree with the rest of it. Although I don’t get why people care so much. It seems to be a divisive debate full of frustration, dismay and ultimately personal attacks, with no end point in sight beyond proving the other person wrong. It doesn’t seem that enjoyable nor productive when observed from a distance. Most debates on here seem much simpler and more amicable so I don’t really get why people are drawn to this one over and over again.

 

[Adisa]

Good posts by @Rozay can't remember a midfielder whose game is as microanalysed like Pogba's.

 

[JPRouve]

The way he has been developed suggests that it's not his fault at all, that it's the fault of all the coaches and managers he's had for the last 12 years.

I love that you keep making exuses for his lack of development and improving the weaknesses in his game. It's cute.

I don't think that there is a fault which is an other issue that I have. Pogba is a very good player today, the fact that he isn't complete isn't a fault, most players aren't and it's generally based on early influences, mainly coaches. A simple example is Blanc, Blanc was a very good young attacking midfielder and he only turned into a sweeper because Mézy and Jacquet saw something else, convinced him to change his position and helped him make the transition otherwise Blanc would have been a totally different player and he was an international player as an attacking player, so it's not even about level but just profile, footballers don't really choose their profile, that's based on youth coaches opinions and then senior coaches.

 

[Rozay]

I don’t think it’s fact I think it’s pure speculation whether he loves us or hates us, there’s no confirmatory evidence anywhere just lots of contradictory evidence layered on top of imagination and previously held views. In which case all views are equally valid or invalid as far as I’m concerned. Not something worth arguing about unless it’s purely to waste time, because there’s nothing in it that will persuade one side the other is right when it’s obvious the other side is relying on speculation to justify their views.

Agree with the rest of it. Although I don’t get why people care so much. It seems to be a divisive debate full of frustration, dismay and ultimately personal attacks, with no end point in sight beyond proving the other person wrong. It doesn’t seem that enjoyable nor productive when observed from a distance. Most debates on here seem much simpler and more amicable so I don’t really get why people are drawn to this one over and over again.

All of this is true. I’m trying to fall back from it myself, generally speaking.

 

[JPRouve]

No CM's are complete at 23. Or very, very few are anyway. This idea Pogba couldn't develop into a fully rounded player at 28 because he wasn't at 23 is a new one to me.

Keane wasn't controlling possession at 23. Modric and Schweinsteiger I don't think were even CM's at 23. Yet they all ended up being fully rounded CM's by 28.

Being incomplete at 23 doesn't stop a top player from developing into fully matured, rounded CM at 28. If anything that's the established path of most top CM's.

He's got what it takes it's just been a question of determination or a willingness to develop his game.

Are we saying Rashford can't be a complete wide forward at 28 because he currently isn't at 23?

Course not.

No, most complete midfielders are complete at 23 years old. They are not at the top of their potential but it's very rare that a midfielder that has big deficencies offensively or defensively turns into a complete midfielder. If I'm being honest I don't know any.

 

[KD6-3.7]

If we don't sign a top quality CDM we may as well just sell Pogba.

Any competent club would have signed one a long time ago.

 

[CG1010]

If he doesn't do it, who's going to do it? Our other midfielders can barely execute a 20 yard pass. They are also prone to hiding from the ball. There's no such thing as a consistent player in a mediocre team outside of keepers.

In 34 games there’s a handful of poor performances....I’d be happy for you to enlighten me as to who you think was consistent in this period

My point is he is he is not able to consistently perform over a stretch of a season, and therefore its not correct to project his performances in a couple of international matches to say he isn't utilised correctly in the team. He has had many great performances for this same "mediocre" United team and the likes of Bruno have been able to produce much more, again in the same team. As an experiment, I suggest you to compare G+A by Pogba when he has played as in left of front 3 this season, and tell me if it is good enough.

 

[Marwood]

No, most complete midfielders are complete at 23 years old. They are not at the top of their potential but it's very rare that a midfielder that has big deficencies offensively or defensively turns into a complete midfielder. If I'm being honest I don't know any.

Suppose we'll just have to disagree but I'm not getting that at all.

I mean Keane 23 to 28 was very different. His passing at 23 was nothing like what it became. He's on record himself saying that.

And as I just mentioned two of the best over last couple of decades, Modric and Schweinsteiger, weren't even playing CM at 23.

Scholes didn't play or train as a CM until he was about 22.

Didn't stop them.

 

[JPRouve]

Suppose we'll just have to disagree but I'm not getting that at all.

I mean Keane 23 to 28 was very different. His passing at 23 was nothing like what it became. He's on record himself saying that.

And as I just mentioned two of the best over last couple of decades, Modric and Schweinsteiger, weren't even playing CM at 23.

Keane was a good passer at 23, he was an adventurous midfielder that contributed offensively, he improved on his strength but he didn't change his game dramatically. Completeness would be for example if Kanté developed his dribbling, passing and creativity, few players do that. You may want to name exceptions but keep in mind that they are exceptions not the norm.

 

[Oranges038]

I don't think that there is a fault which is an other issue that I have. Pogba is a very good player today, the fact that he isn't complete isn't a fault, most players aren't and it's generally based on early influences, mainly coaches. A simple example is Blanc, Blanc was a very good young attacking midfielder and he only turned into a sweeper because Mézy and Jacquet saw something else, convinced him to change his position and helped him make the transition otherwise Blanc would have been a totally different player and he was an international player as an attacking player, so it's not even about level but just profile, footballers don't really choose their profile, that's based on youth coaches opinions and then senior coaches.

He has all the tools to be the best midfielder in the world. He just hasn't employed himself correctly to using them in the right way.

As someone else pointed out the evolution of Modric, Schweinsteiger and Keane. You could even add Viera, Lahm, Scholes, Xavi Alonso, Pirlo, Xavi, they all evolved into top midfielders over time through playing experience and working on their game. They didn't start with the complete set of skills at 20 and not have to develop or improve any aspect of their games at all over their careers.

Pogba is as physically and technically capable as any of them. He probably has more natural talent than any of them. At 28 he should be a more developed, capable and effective midfielder than he currently is.

 

[Jeppers7]

My point is he is he is not able to consistently perform over a stretch of a season, and therefore its not correct to project his performances in a couple of international matches to say he isn't utilised correctly in the team. He has had many great performances for this same "mediocre" United team and the likes of Bruno have been able to produce much more, again in the same team. As an experiment, I suggest you to compare G+A by Pogba when he has played as in left of front 3 this season, and tell me if it is good enough.

34 games is about 60% of a season.

The likes of Bruno....and anyone else?

Bruno by the way plays as a forward for us, Pogba doesn’t but from January Bruno scored two league goals from open play and had about 6 assists, some of which were where he didn’t touch the ball but had to be given the assist to validate the goal.

I’m not sure why you’d question Pogba in that period when Bruno produced little and has free reign in this team to go where he wants, do what he wants. Pogba performed and the player you quoted really didn’t.

 

[Marwood]

Keane was a good passer at 23, he was an adventurous midfielder that contributed offensively, he improved on his strength but he didn't change his game dramatically. Completeness would be for example if Kanté developed his dribbling, passing and creativity, few players do that. You may want to name exceptions but keep in mind that they are exceptions not the norm.

I couldn't name midfielders who improved their attacking play, that is pretty much a non starter. You have that or you don't. But it's also a strawman as that isn't the department Pogba struggles with or anybody has asked him to develop.

But the number of midfielders or wingers who improved their defensive play and decision making to become that complete player is long and distinguished.

I've given examples. Guys who didn't even grow up playing CM.

 

[charlenefan]

If the Grealish news in true no choice but to offer him whatever he wants now

 

[JPRouve]

He has all the tools to be the best midfielder in the world. He just hasn't employed himself correctly to using them in the right way.

As someone else pointed out the evolution of Modric, Schweinsteiger and Keane. You could even add Viera, Lahm, Scholes, Xavi Alonso, Pirlo, Xavi, they all evolved into top midfielders over time through playing experience and working on their game. They didn't start with the complete set of skills at 20 and not have to develop or improve any aspect of their games at all over their careers.

Pogba is as physically and technically capable as any of them. He probably has more natural talent than any of them. At 28 he should be a more developed, capable and effective midfielder than he currently is.

Keane was a complete player at Nottingham, Xabi Alonso didn't change and Xavi was a complete midfielder from day one being able to play all the roles in midfield. Scholes was never a complete player. Vieira was a defended minded midfielder with good technique his entire career, Pirlo has never been a great defender from midfield but a playmaker with serviceable defensive contribution, he finished his career the same way with the only difference that he ended as a deep lying playmaker surrounded by defensively sound teammates instead of a 10 surrounded by defensively sound teammates.

But anyway your last sentence says everything, you ignored the most important part. It's the mental aspect of the game and how a player understands and read the game, that's part of the abilities and it's not something that you can easily develop nor something that outsiders can rate. What made Xavi great was his abilitiy to see things that most players couldn't, the same is true for Pirlo, Scholes and Keane and that's why when it comes expectations it's a bad idea to use these players as the goal.

 

[JPRouve]

I couldn't name midfielders who improved their attacking play, that is pretty much a non starter. You have that or you don't. But it's also a strawman as that isn't the department Pogba struggles with.

But the number of midfielders or wingers who improved their defensive play and decision making to become that complete player is long and distinguished.

I've given examples. Guys who didn't even grow up playing CM.

Yes you gave two players who are exceptions. And even then Schweinsteiger was a complete midfielder and was used as a wide midfielder in a 442 diamond/4312, in fact Schweinsteiger's role was close to the one Pogba is currently playing for France. And Pogba has improve defensively, today he is serviceable but you can't expect him to be Vieira.

 

[CG1010]

34 games is about 60% of a season.

The likes of Bruno....and anyone else?

Bruno by the way plays as a forward for us, Pogba doesn’t but from January Bruno scored two league goals from open play and had about 6 assists, some of which were where he didn’t touch the ball but had to be given the assist to validate the goal.

I’m not sure why you’d question Pogba in that period when Bruno produced little and has free reign in this team to go where he wants, do what he wants. Pogba performed and the player you quoted really didn’t.

It would be good to check relative positions of the two players since Pogba started playing left in front 3. And would be good to compare the output of both the players. Honestly I suspect most fans would say Pogba had an "ok" season, only very few would say he had 34 games that were very consistent.

In terms of questioning Bruno, 1) this isn't the thread for it, 2) he doesn't consistently talk about needing to play his best position (like Pogba, which keeps changing) and 3) he has done much more for us since he joined.

 

[Bwuk]

I don't think he's going anywhere, and if we sign Varane I'd imagine Pogba will of known about it happening.

 

[Rozay]

I couldn't name midfielders who improved their attacking play, that is pretty much a non starter. You have that or you don't. But it's also a strawman as that isn't the department Pogba struggles with or anybody has asked him to develop.

But the number of midfielders or wingers who improved their defensive play and decision making to become that complete player is long and distinguished.

I've given examples. Guys who didn't even grow up playing CM.

This forum loves stats, have you had a look at Pogba’s defensive stats?

 

[Oranges038]

Keane was a complete player at Nottingham, Xabi Alonso didn't change and Xavi was a complete midfielder from day one being able to play all the roles in midfield. Scholes was never a complete player. Vieira was a defended minded midfielder with good technique his entire career, Pirlo has never been a great defender from midfield but a playmaker with serviceable defensive contribution, he finished his career the same way with the only difference that he ended as a deep lying playmaker surrounded by defensively sound teammates instead of a 10 surrounded by defensively sound teammates.

But anyway your last sentence says everything, you ignored the most important part. It's the mental aspect of the game and how a player understands and read the game, that's part of the abilities and it's not something that you can easily develop nor something that outsiders can rate. What made Xavi great was his abilitiy to see things that most players couldn't, the same is true for Pirlo, Scholes and Keane and that's why when it comes expectations it's a bad idea to use these players as the goal.

Yeah, they all started with everything they needed to be top level midfielders and never added to or improved any part of their game.

So with Pogba. It's all mental, he doesn't have a good football brain, he doesn't have the mental capacity to improve his game. Despite all his ability we can never expect him to get better. To me that's bullshit.

 

[JPRouve]

Yeah, they all started with everything they needed to be top level midfielders and never added to or improved any part of their game.

So with Pogba. It's all mental, he doesn't have a good football brain, he doesn't have the mental capacity to improve his game. Despite all his ability we can never expect him to get better. To me that's bullshit.

They improved on their strength, on the tools they already possessed they didn't turn into something they weren't. And it's not about not having a good football brain, Pogba is a very good football player, he isn't a great football player, you are comparing him to some players that are arguably all time greats, not reaching their level doesn't mean that you don't have a good football brain, it simply means that you are not at their level. The way some of you are talking about Pogba you would think that he is playing like a sunday league player.

Here is the thing that I don't understand. None of us are infallible, our judgement of players are more often than not wrong whether we rate or not a player because we use incomplete sets of data. So doesn't it make more sense to reevalute your previous ratings than consider that the player is at fault, that your evaluation was definitely correct?

 

[Zoo]

Interesting to listen to Michael Cox rave about Pogba, even said that it's the best he has seen him play.

 

[roonster09]

They improved on their strength, on the tools they already possessed they didn't turn into something they weren't. And it's not about not having a good football brain, Pogba is a very good football player, he isn't a great football player, you are comparing him to some players that are arguably all time greats, not reaching their level doesn't mean that you don't have a good football brain, it simply means that you are not at their level. The way some of you are talking about Pogba you would think that he is playing like a sunday league player.

Here is the thing that I don't understand. None of us are infallible, our judgement of players are more often than not wrong whether we rate or not a player because we use incomplete sets of data. So doesn't it make more sense to reevalute your previous ratings than consider that the player is at fault, that your evaluation was definitely correct?

That's a great point.

 

[El Jefe]

That's not true for you but it is for me, you overrated him and I didn't. I said at the time people were overrating him and that they were mixing their fantasy of a player with the actual player. I had hope that he could get close to a Vieira but I never expected it, you can't really expect something like that in my opinion. Potential isn't an expectation but a fantasy, it just means that you wouldn't be surprised if a player reached that level it doesn't mean that he definitely will.

With all due respect you seem to be underplaying his potential to justify him not meeting expectations. You're talking about a player that by the age of 23, was a starter for Juventus and France for 3-4 years, started in a CL and Euros Final. He wasn't the full package obviously but the potential he'd shown up until his United transfer was frightening. The very fact that he was still so good with all the flaws in his game at the time says that with experience and maturity he should have turned out exceptional. Potential is a fantasy for underdeveloped players, such as those in the academy or having breakthrough seasons, a current example of that would be Bellingham. However in Pogba's case, he was an established young player with proven pedigree. I wouldn't expect a team signing Frenkie de Jong or Haaland today to think it's fantasy for them to reach their potential, it would very much be an expectation.

You don't see the ability Pogba had as a teenager in many CMs. I'd go as far as saying by the age of 23 he was a better player or at least similar level to Modric, Lampard, Scholes, Yaya, Schweinstiger etc. They just developed their games much better than he did from that point onwards.

 

[JJ12]

I think he’ll stay if we bring in good players. Don’t think he’ll sign until he sees improvements.

 

[justsomebloke]

With all due respect you seem to be underplaying his potential to justify him not meeting expectations. You're talking about a player that by the age of 23, was a starter for Juventus and France for 3-4 years, started in a CL and Euros Final. He wasn't the full package obviously but the potential he'd shown up until his United transfer was frightening. The very fact that he was still so good with all the flaws in his game at the time says that with experience and maturity have turned out exceptional. Potential is a fantasy for underdeveloped players, such as those in the academy or having breakthrough seasons, a current example of that would be Bellingham. However in Pogba's case, he was an established young player with proven pedigree. I wouldn't expect a team signing Frenkie de Jong or Haaland today to think it's fantasy for them to reach their potential, it would very much be an expectation.

You don't see the ability Pogba had as a teenager in many CMs. I'd go as far as saying by the age of 23 he was a better player or at least similar level to Modric, Lampard, Scholes, Yaya, Schweinstiger etc. They just developed their games much better than he did from that point onwards.

You have to take into consideration though that players don't necessarily follow the same development trajectory. Some players peak or reach their basic level before they're 25, others much later. And that doesn't necessarily mean that the early peakers had potential they failed to reach.

Also, the biggest talents tend to peak earlier than others. I've not looked really thoroughly at this for football, but in ice hockey at least, the megastars - the Gretzkys, Lemieuxs and so on - have tended to have their top scoring seasons already in their early twenties. It's not the case that everyone can be expected to continue to improve into their late twenties.

 

[El Jefe]

You have to take into consideration though that players don't necessarily follow the same development trajectory. Some players peak or reach their basic level before they're 25, others much later. And that doesn't necessarily mean that the early peakers had potential they failed to reach.

Also, the biggest talents tend to peak earlier than others. I've not looked really thoroughly at this for football, but in ice hockey at least, the megastars - the Gretzkys, Lemieuxs and so on - have tended to have their top scoring seasons already in their early twenties. It's not the case that everyone can be expected to continue to improve into their late twenties.

I agree with the premise of your point but don't necessarily think it applies to Pogba. He is better than he was in his early 20s, so I wouldn't say he reached his peak early.

 

[justsomebloke]

I agree with the premise of your point but don't necessarily think it applies to Pogba. He is better than he was in his early 20s, so I wouldn't say he reached his peak early.

No, that's fair enough. Hard to tell though if there's further untapped potential.

 

[JPRouve]

With all due respect you seem to be underplaying his potential to justify him not meeting expectations. You're talking about a player that by the age of 23, was a starter for Juventus and France for 3-4 years, started in a CL and Euros Final. He wasn't the full package obviously but the potential he'd shown up until his United transfer was frightening. The very fact that he was still so good with all the flaws in his game at the time says that with experience and maturity he should have turned out exceptional. Potential is a fantasy for underdeveloped players, such as those in the academy or having breakthrough seasons, a current example of that would be Bellingham. However in Pogba's case, he was an established young player with proven pedigree. I wouldn't expect a team signing Frenkie de Jong or Haaland today to think it's fantasy for them to reach their potential, it would very much be an expectation.

You don't see the ability Pogba had as a teenager in many CMs. I'd go as far as saying by the age of 23 he was a better player or at least similar level to Modric, Lampard, Scholes, Yaya, Schweinstiger etc. They just developed their games much better than he did from that point onwards.

Maybe but I didn't rate him as highly as many did in 2016 and I never expect players to reach their presumed potential since it's based on fitness and coaching environment, I hope that they do but I don't expect it. And Pogba is a very good player, one of the best midfielders in the world. And there is the small issue of where the peak is some players have less room for improvement than others.

 

[Marwood]

This forum loves stats, have you had a look at Pogba’s defensive stats?

I've no appetite for going into stats and same goes for all players. Goals scored, assists(maybe) and distance covered. After that I've no real use for them.

I've watched him for five years. I don't want Pogba anywhere near our own third. It seems Ole has come to the same conclusion.

That's not me saying Pogba can't be brilliant in any other role, he can.

I just don't see any substance to the argument he can be trusted defensively across a whole season.

But I know you guys will argue that.

 

[Marwood]

Maybe but I didn't rate him as highly as many did in 2016 and I never expect players to reach their presumed potential since it's based on fitness and coaching environment, I hope that they do but I don't expect it. And Pogba is a very good player, one of the best midfielders in the world. And there is the small issue of where the peak is some players have less room for improvement than others.

Keane, who you say was always a complete midfielder, was at Cobh Ramblers at 19. Then at Notts Forest under a finished Brian Clough and got relegated. That was his early coaching environment.

Yet Pogba, with all the help, coaching and facilities in the world, can't be expected with age to fully round his game?

It really does read that you're making excuses for him.

 

[JPRouve]

Keane, who you say was always a complete midfielder, was at Cobh Ramblers at 19. Then at Notts Forest under a finished Brian Clough and got relegated. That was his early coaching environment.

Yet Pogba, with all the help, coaching and facilities in the world, can't be expected with age to fully round his game?

It really does read that you're making excuses for him.

Being complete and being good are two different things, though Keane was also good at 23 which is the age that you brought up.