[Rozay]

I've no appetite for going into stats and same goes for all players. Goals scored, assists(maybe) and distance covered. After that I've no real use for them.

I've watched him for five years. I don't want Pogba anywhere near our own third. It seems Ole has come to the same conclusion.

That's not me saying Pogba can't be brilliant in any other role, he can.

I just don't see any substance to the argument he can be trusted defensively across a whole season.

But I know you guys will argue that.

We share a similar view to stats, which is refreshing.

And I’d never claim Pogba is good defensively, his strengths are clearly elsewhere. I responded directly to a claim that he hasn’t improved defensively since 23, and I think he has. And while Pogba isn’t good defensively, I don’t think he’s worse than playing any attack minded midfielder in a midfield two (generally speaking).

My reference to the stats is due to people liking to take what I’d never argue is not a weakness in his game, and turn it into something so extreme. It’s exaggerated a bit. If you come near Pogba, he will tackle you. Or probably try to, and foul you. He’s not totally invisible as is implied, and the statistics will tell anyone that as he regularly has respectable or even good numbers for ball recoveries etc. What he’s terrible at it defensive pressing and tracking, and his stride pattern doesn’t suit short, sharp shuttling runs. He doesn’t press. But he can tackle and he clears anything into our box in the air game after game.

The fact is, Pogba has played many games in a double pivot and done his defensive duties well. As recently as this season. In fact, we all said so at the time. But I’d rather a much player much better at keeping our defensive shape in the midfield, and wouldn’t be comfortable with him in a double pivot over the course of the season due to the defensive deficiencies you speak of.

 

[He'sRaldo]

If he literally didn’t move and continued doing what he was doing at Juventus, he absolutely would be considered a top 3 midfielder in the world.

The reality is, if you watch the so-called better midfielders as closely for 38 games and compare objectively, they probably aren’t better at all. Maybe a couple. But certainly not the likes of Henderson or whoever. With me, I’m not even going into potential. I’m saying the player he is RIGHT NOW is far better than he gets credit for. He suddenly gets that credit in a blue shirt, because of his team’s success, and I believe he would get that credit at club level of his team were successful too.

Nobody actually cares to microanalyse when these so-called top 3 or top 5 or whatever midfielders give away a pass, don’t score 20 goals from a midfield 2 or whatever. Their teams win trophies, and we view them more ‘generally speaking‘ as good before bad. No other player would actually stand up well to the micro scrutiny that Pogba gets, but they don’t get it. I see Toni Kroos dispossessed easily, I see players run off him, and I also see him return far less goals and assists than Pogba but nobody cares. I can absolutely guarantee you that they would suddenly care more if he were at a 5th place United. Whatever it is he has gotten away with doing at Real simply wouldn’t be seen as ‘enough’ in a failing team. Kanté is everyone’s favourite. Put him at United, who are expected to finish first but finish 4th, and his ‘simply winning the ball back’ would not be viewed as enough, people will start asking for the rest like why doesn’t he score more, why doesn’t he create more etc. Because ultimately, the team is not a winning team so the players playing for the team can’t universally be viewed as doing well enough.

Pogba could go through the Euros and play well and not score a single goal, for example, and still collect a medal and praise for his personal contribution. We’ve had many in this thread over the season presenting goal stats, why not more goals etc. Nobody will care that a player ran off him once or twice, or a pass was sloppy. They will focus on the good things he did, because whatever his contribution was, it was a winning one.

One of the saddest things is that people simply haven’t taken the time to enjoy a terrific player playing in our league, and it’s a shame. Forget hypothetical potential, there has actually been far more good moments than people seem to appreciate. He has his bad games, of course, but he plays well plenty for United too. When he leaves, it will be written that he didn’t.

Great post.

People don't seem to realize that when other top players go through a bad patch, they simply disappear from the conversation. Hence when they do go through a period of great form again, they can just pick up where they left off being world class players with no serious flaws.

When a Utd player goes through a bad patch, the conversation about him gets louder and more frenzied, and the bad patch isn't simply forgotten. Even if he does regain form there will always be a caveat, in Pogba's case the "inconsistent" tag being forever branded on him.

The way the 2 sets of players are judged is fundamentally different, and the only way to change this is to win trophies and consistently be in that conversation.

 

[Rozay]

Keane, who you say was always a complete midfielder, was at Cobh Ramblers at 19. Then at Notts Forest under a finished Brian Clough and got relegated. That was his early coaching environment.

Yet Pogba, with all the help, coaching and facilities in the world, can't be expected with age to fully round his game?

It really does read that you're making excuses for him.

But Pogba has matured into a top midfielder. He just hasn’t matured into a ‘complete’ one. But his lack of completeness does not mean he isn’t a top midfielder, he’s one of the game’s best midfielders. But not a complete one. People saw a 6’3 black guy and decided he should basically do what Vieira does. But he can’t. But Vieira couldn’t pass a ball like Pogba. Pogba is still a top midfielder, just not equally balanced offensively and defensively (and the significant bit of ‘midfielding’ in between both that current football struggles to define).

 

[JPRouve]

We share a similar view to stats, which is refreshing.

And I’d never claim Pogba is good defensively, his strengths are clearly elsewhere. I responded directly to a claim that he hasn’t improved defensively since 23, and I think he has. And while Pogba isn’t good defensively, I don’t think he’s worse than playing any attack minded midfielder in a midfield two (generally speaking).

My reference to the stats is due to people liking to take what I’d never argue is not a weakness in his game, and turn it into something so extreme. It’s exaggerated a bit. If you come near Pogba, he will tackle you. Or probably try to, and foul you. He’s not totally invisible as is implied, and the statistics will tell anyone that as he regularly has respectable or even good numbers for ball recoveries etc. What he’s terrible at it defensive pressing and tracking, and his stride pattern doesn’t suit short, sharp shuttling runs. He doesn’t press. But he can tackle and he clears anything into our box in the air game after game.

The fact is, Pogba has played many games in a double pivot and done his defensive duties well. As recently as this season. In fact, we all said so at the time. But I’d rather a much player much better at keeping our defensive shape in the midfield, and wouldn’t be comfortable with him in a double pivot over the course of the season due to the defensive deficiencies you speak of.

That's exactly what I see from him. Pogba has two big flaws defensively, he ball watches which is the source of his poor marking and he isn't built for back and forth actions which see him late in the early phases of counter attacks against his team.

 

[He'sRaldo]

That's exactly what I see from him. Pogba has two big flaws defensively, he ball watches which is the source of his poor marking and he isn't built for back and forth actions which see him late in the early phases of counter attacks against his team.

This shouldn't even be a problem for most top teams which compress the pitch and press high in smaller spaces.

If we played more compact and less end to end, it wouldn't be an issue. In fact it's why most top attackers and offensive mids are willing to press and defend from the front, as they know they won't be running box to box meaning overall they'll end up running less.

 

[Marwood]

Being complete and being good are two different things, though Keane was also good at 23 which is the age that you brought up.

But your argument was that Pogba didn't have the correct coaching environment to be a complete midfielder. He was at United and Juve during this time.

But Keane did have the right environment? At Cobh Ramblers and a relegated Forest?

Then there's all the other examples of players who didn't even play CM till their early/mid 20's. No coaching in that role at all.

To me the much more obvious answer is that one wanted to learn and develop. The other has and always will play football his way.

I post here mainly out of frustration with missed opportunity rather than any "hate" for the player. I think he had it all to be a top 3 CM. Where as instead we have a player we've never known how to accommodate.

 

[JPRouve]

But your argument was that Pogba didn't have the correct coaching environment to be a complete midfielder. He was at United and Juve during this time.

But Keane did have the right environment? At Cobh Ramblers and a relegated Forest?

Then there's all the other examples of players who didn't even play CM till their early/mid 20's. No coaching in that role at all.

To me the much more obvious answer is that one wanted to learn and develop. The other has and always will play football his way.

I post here mainly out of frustration with missed opportunity rather than any "hate" for the player. I think he had it all to be a top 3 CM. Where as instead we have a player we've never known how to accommodate.

At youth level he was developed as an attacking midfielder not as a complete midfielder, iirc the same was true with Le Havre. At Juventus he was used as a support player but mainly attacking support alongside more complete midfielders like Vidal or Marchisio and even defensive midfielders like Khedira. So it's not about righ environment but what the coaching staffs expected and wanted from him on the field, Pogba's history tells you that he was expected to be a difference maker offensively, at United Mourinho decided to try to use him as a potential Vieira, Pogba has improved defensively but he isn't complete because he has years of being used differently.

And I think that it was a good idea to try Pogba in a deeper position, try to make him more complete but I don't think that it's reasonable to expect it to definitely work because we are talking a decade of being developed differently. Also interestingly Vieira think that Pogba should be an attacking midfielder, that it is where his high potential was.

 

[Oranges038]

They improved on their strength, on the tools they already possessed they didn't turn into something they weren't. And it's not about not having a good football brain, Pogba is a very good football player, he isn't a great football player, you are comparing him to some players that are arguably all time greats, not reaching their level doesn't mean that you don't have a good football brain, it simply means that you are not at their level. The way some of you are talking about Pogba you would think that he is playing like a sunday league player.

Here is the thing that I don't understand. None of us are infallible, our judgement of players are more often than not wrong whether we rate or not a player because we use incomplete sets of data. So doesn't it make more sense to reevalute your previous ratings than consider that the player is at fault, that your evaluation was definitely correct?

You can say he's limited mentally in what he can achieve or that the coaching environments for him at club level didn't help him improve as they should have. He's had the best of everything since he joined Utd at 16.

I think he's a fantastically talented player. In terms of talent he should be being talked about as a great midfielder. But he hasn't improved in line with expectations and given the talent he's shown since a young age I think people are right to expect more from him. I think that's why he divides opinion so much, some people expect more from him, others are happy for him to produce YouTube clips.

At 23 Luka Modric moved to Spurs, he was relatively unkown, he had a poor enough first season and was roundly criticised playing in a struggling Spurs side. He showed the mental resilience and drive to improve, 4 years later he signs for Real as one of the best midfielders in the world, now at 35 he's regarded as one of the best midfielders of his generation. Thats the type of evolution we should have seen with Pogba, at 28 he should undoubtedly be one of the best on the world, shouldn't even be a debate about it.

What started me in here was people comparing him to De Bruyne and maybe even thinking he Pogba was better, he's not.

The point I made was that De Bruyne has worked hard to improve and maximise his talents and Pogba hasn't.

De Bruyne has also worked under numerous managers and was at different clubs, has only been at City a year longer than Pogba at Utd. De Bruyne took a harder route, so maybe he felt he had to work harder to get back up. Maybe playing in Serie A with a dominant Juventus team meant Pogba was able to coast through some pivotal development years and as a result we're seeing a the effect of that on a player that hasn't had to improve his game over those years to get ahead.

 

[Rolaholic]

 

[Jeppers7]

Virus

 

[Jeppers7]

The lengths of these debates.

 

[Marwood]

At youth level he was developed as an attacking midfielder not as a complete midfielder, iirc the same was true with Le Havre. At Juventus he was used as a support player but mainly attacking support alongside more complete midfielders like Vidal or Marchisio and even defensive midfielders like Khedira. So it's not about righ environment but what the coaching staffs expected and wanted from him on the field, Pogba's history tells you that he was expected to be a difference maker offensively, at United Mourinho decided to try to use him as a potential Vieira, Pogba has improved defensively but he isn't complete because he has years of being used differently.

And I think that it was a good idea to try Pogba in a deeper position, try to make him more complete but I don't think that it's reasonable to expect it to definitely work because we are talking a decade of being developed differently. Also interestingly Vieira think that Pogba should be an attacking midfielder, that it is where his high potential was.

He played in a 2 man midfield at youth level, next to Tunnicliffe. Tunnicliffe was no holding midfielder either. He very much was being brought up as the complete type. Le Havre I've no idea but are we really suggesting what happens at 15 determines for life the role of a player?

But all that's neither here nor there. We've already discussed examples of players who never played CM until they were early 20's and ended up world class. Never mind CM's who tweeked their game as they got older.

What I would say is that the defference between players today doesn't help. If Pogba or for example Martial had been in the first team early to mid 90's I think the other players would have sorted a lot of this out. Does anybody today get on his case if he dwells on the ball for example? Does anyone get at Martial for being lazy? I can't say for sure but it doesn't look like it on the pitch.

To my mind and quite frustratingly, what Pogba lacks to be complete is the relatively easy stuff. The stuff you can and should learn. In a different era I think the other players wouldn't have allowed him to get away with it.

 

[Jim Beam]

Thank you sir, and I await your further response.

Just to reinforce the Juventus point, many people at the time thought that we were already getting a top 3 midfielder in the world when we signed him from Juve, and that player wasn’t even as good as the one we have now! In England at the time, the consensus was absolutely that he was one of the best, if not the best midfielder in the world. Which is probably why our fans expected him to sign for Real or Barcelona in the first place, and couldn’t and still can’t believe that he would actually want to play for us.

Juve had won 4 titles on the spin and gotten to a CL final. Players in teams like that are distilled down to a highlight showreel of their best bits, and Pogba’s best bits were damn impressive. So nobody cared about tracking runners, and if he stayed there another 5 years, nobody would still care about tracking runners till this day (as you said, provided that Juve kept winning trophies) and he would, the exact same player, be seen as one of the best, if not the best MF in the world, especially when coupled with his success for France. The evidence used would be all the good things he’s done.

That analogy is the same whether applied to any top midfielder, be it Paul Scholes, Toni Kroos, Kimmich or whoever. I’m willing to bet that the average fan on the caf would struggle to name 3 bad games Scholes had for United in his entire career. Not just because it’s far in the past, but even the very day he retired. Nobody cares. We probably didn’t even care immediately after the games, because we likely still won. And if we didn’t we still won the league anyway!

As I said, just to come with a more detailed response.

Yes, Pogba still in Juventus would probably get much higher reception here and as I said it is quite absurd (and a bit sad) as it seems like he would get more praise if he never joined us.

However, collective success while also being one of the things that would massively help in his image here is not absolutely necessary. Robson is still so highly rated and for the most people favorite United player because of his ability to drag poor United team through the years. Pogba can't do that and while I agree he wasn't a bad signing and even people use him as kind of a scapegoat for our recent years his periods of poor form have been bad and there are times where he was a massive liability. There are also times where you see how much he can influence the game with the pass, faint or goalscoring ability (which I would touch back later in terms of middle ground not being able to be recognised when it comes to him).

But, on a broader and more general point you are getting I feel Kroos for example would massively struggle as he is also highly dependent of his surrounding (check some Germany games when they went collectively down in recent years). Modric and Kante are different imo and I think you are mistaken about them. Kante is on his way to be the best defensive b2b even in an all time context and Modric is really consistent (although, now past his best). But also totally different midfielders tbf.

All together, my biggest gripe is with people not being able to see that middle ground as often is the case here. Yes, he didn't live to the expectations, but he also wasn't that bad as some say. You can see the class, looking at his personality and game it is a shame we never put him in a proper position to shine (controller behind with a b2b engine beside him and let him make chaos in the final 3rd). Am disappointed as we never got what we were buying, but he was one of the rare cases of player entering his peak who wanted to come here which is a massive thing. I also don't really see where this is heading as we moved away from building around him once we bought Bruno.

Hopefully, as Sancho is on his way here we don't make similar mistakes whatever happens with Pogba.

In the end, we could at least learn from past mistakes. The contract he is about to receive shouldn't be massive though imo, although the prospect of adding Sancho and Varane and keeping Pogba looks appealing.

 

[Rozay]

As I said, just to come with a more detailed response.

Yes, Pogba still in Juventus would probably get much higher reception here and as I said it is quite absurd (and a bit sad) as it seems like he would get more praise if he never joined us.

However, collective success while also being one of the things that would massively help in his image here is not absolutely necessary. Robson is still so highly rated and for the most people favorite United player because of his ability to drag poor United team through the years. Pogba can't do that and while I agree he wasn't a bad signing and even people use him as kind of a scapegoat for our recent years his periods of poor form have been bad and there are times where he was a massive liability. There are also times where you see how much he can influence the game with the pass, faint or goalscoring ability (which I would touch back later in terms of middle ground not being able to be recognised when it comes to him).

But, on a broader and more general point you are getting I feel Kroos for example would massively struggle as he is also highly dependent of his surrounding (check some Germany games when they went collectively down in recent years). Modric and Kante are different imo and I think you are mistaken about them. Kante is on his way to be the best defensive b2b even in an all time context and Modric is really consistent (although, now past his best). But also totally different midfielders tbf.

All together, my biggest gripe is with people not being able to see that middle ground as often is the case here. Yes, he didn't live to the expectations, but he also wasn't that bad as some say. You can see the class, looking at his personality and game it is a shame we never put him in a proper position to shine (controller behind with a b2b engine beside him and let him make chaos in the final 3rd). Am disappointed as we never got what we were buying, but he was one of the rare cases of player entering his peak who wanted to come here which is a massive thing. I also don't really see where this is heading as we moved away from building around him once we bought Bruno.

Hopefully, as Sancho is on his way here we don't make similar mistakes whatever happens with Pogba.

In the end, we could at least learn from past mistakes. The contract he is about to receive shouldn't be massive though imo, although the prospect of adding Sancho and Varane and keeping Pogba looks appealing.

Speaking of similar mistakes, I’m not that optimistic regarding Sancho. The whole notion of signing a player whose optimum is on the left as a big money right wing solution suggests to me that there is a fair chance that we will also spend a while not extracting the maximum from him.

Kante is brilliant at what he does, but I suspect the huge disparity between he and Fred, for example, is lack of major honours. I don’t think there’s that much between them, certainly not the chasm that is their respective reputations, but I guess that is an argument for another day. But ultimately, my point of mentioning Kanté was that there are things that he can’t do. And in a midfield pairing for a team that is considered to be underachieving, I suspect there would be greater focus on what he is not good at than what he is good at. Players have strengths and weaknesses. The amount of times I’ve read on here that ‘France have to play Kanté and Matuidi to cover Pogba’s weaknesses’, while seemingly failing to acknowledge that by the same token - Pogba is played to cover the weaknesses of Kanté. And Tolisso and even Griezmann. If those players could create chances and pass like Pogba, perhaps he wouldn’t be needed at all. A France midfield with Kanté and Tolisso would be bang average as a whole.

I understand the view that Pogba hasn’t lived up to expectations. But I think he probably wasn’t given a fair chance to. I think based on a Juve highlight reel, the ‘expectation’ was loads of game winning goals and something similar to KDB, Yaya, Gerrard etc. Even the briefest of analysis will beg the question of how that sort of offensive output was a realistic ‘expectation’ when he was asked to do what all of those did themselves from a 3rd midfielder free role, from a double pivot. From the very beginning, first season, Pogba began his time in a partnership with Marouane Fellaini. We signed Mkhitaryan in the same summer to play as a 10, and generally, there was some variation of Mkhi, Lingard, Mata and Pereira in the free role in midfield. Pogba, who had shown little capacity to do so, was asked to be a PL cm. None of that is even close to what he was doing at Juve. Why just insist he can do it to a high level, and if not, he has a ‘terrible attitude’ or whatever? He’s never refused to play any role. Comparison to the Gerrard’s and De Bruyne’s were therefore a false equivalence, with the task seemingly to become Roy Keane or Patrick Vieira, which is not his game. My suspicion is that, due to having the most quality, different managers have felt that his gifts were best needed in different areas. At Juve, the coach didn’t need to say ‘we need your long passing most as a 6’ because Pirlo was there. They didn’t need him to be the ball winner, Vidal was there. They looked at what he was best at and what he was worst at, and generally asked him to focus on what he was best at.

Even last season. Pogba has played 6 and on the left. How many players have even close to the skill set to play as both a 6 and an offensive winger? Do you remember what happened when Saint Kanté was asked to play on the right by Sarri? He couldn’t do it. His performances drew much criticism. Going to this season ahead, Ole says he wants him to stay, but I’m not sure it’s still clear what he wants from Pogba. What is his position? If some weren’t so caught up in some sort of vendrtta, they may consider that aspect. Pogba has been given different roles since he’s been here, and he’s come in for huge flak for not excelling where he isn’t best. He said himself in a recent interview that he hopes to have one position in the future. These are also factors that make a player consider leaving. We just know he is ‘capable of brilliance’, but beyond that, there seems to be no clear defined role we want from him, and the closest to that is one that doesn’t suit all of his strengths, but he’s asked to do it because he can pass. All the midfielders he’s compared to can pass too. KDB isn’t asked to play same role, Yaya was pushed forward against anyone decent too, as was Gerrard. Everyone just accepted it wasn’t their strength, and focused on what they were good at.

 

[Jeppers7]

Speaking of similar mistakes, I’m not that optimistic regarding Sancho. The whole notion of signing a player whose optimum is on the left as a big money right wing solution suggests to me that there is a fair chance that we will also spend a while not extracting the maximum from him.

Kante is brilliant at what he does, but I suspect the huge disparity between he and Fred, for example, is lack of major honours. I don’t think there’s that much between them, certainly not the chasm that is their respective reputations, but I guess that is an argument for another day. But ultimately, my point of mentioning Kanté was that there are things that he can’t do. And in a midfield pairing for a team that is considered to be underachieving, I suspect there would be greater focus on what he is not good at than what he is good at. Players have strengths and weaknesses. The amount of times I’ve read on here that ‘France have to play Kanté and Matuidi to cover Pogba’s weaknesses’, while seemingly failing to acknowledge that by the same token - Pogba is played to cover the weaknesses of Kanté. And Tolisso and even Griezmann. If those players could create chances and pass like Pogba, perhaps he wouldn’t be needed at all. A France midfield with Kanté and Tolisso would be bang average as a whole.

I understand the view that Pogba hasn’t lived up to expectations. But I think he probably wasn’t given a fair chance to. I think based on a Juve highlight reel, the ‘expectation’ was loads of game winning goals and something similar to KDB, Yaya, Gerrard etc. Even the briefest of analysis will beg the question of how that sort of offensive output was a realistic ‘expectation’ when he was asked to do what all of those did themselves from a 3rd midfielder free role, from a double pivot. From the very beginning, first season, Pogba began his time in a partnership with Marouane Fellaini. We signed Mkhitaryan in the same summer to play as a 10, and generally, there was some variation of Mkhi, Lingard, Mata and Pereira in the free role in midfield. Pogba, who had shown little capacity to do so, was asked to be a PL cm. None of that is even close to what he was doing at Juve. Why just insist he can do it to a high level, and if not, he has a ‘terrible attitude’ or whatever? He’s never refused to play any role. Comparison to the Gerrard’s and De Bruyne’s were therefore a false equivalence, with the task seemingly to become Roy Keane or Patrick Vieira, which is not his game. My suspicion is that, due to having the most quality, different managers have felt that his gifts were best needed in different areas. At Juve, the coach didn’t need to say ‘we need your long passing most as a 6’ because Pirlo was there. They didn’t need him to be the ball winner, Vidal was there. They looked at what he was best at and what he was worst at, and generally asked him to focus on what he was best at.

Even last season. Pogba has played 6 and on the left. How many players have even close to the skill set to play as both a 6 and an offensive winger? Do you remember what happened when Saint Kanté was asked to play on the right by Sarri? He couldn’t do it. His performances drew much criticism. Going to this season ahead, Ole says he wants him to stay, but I’m not sure it’s still clear what he wants from Pogba. What is his position? If some weren’t so caught up in some sort of vendrtta, they may consider that aspect. Pogba has been given different roles since he’s been here, and he’s come in for huge flak for not excelling where he isn’t best. He said himself in a recent interview that he hopes to have one position in the future. These are also factors that make a player consider leaving. We just know he is ‘capable of brilliance’, but beyond that, there seems to be no clear defined role we want from him, and the closest to that is one that doesn’t suit all of his strengths, but he’s asked to do it because he can pass. All the midfielders he’s compared to can pass too. KDB isn’t asked to play same role, Yaya was pushed forward against anyone decent too, as was Gerrard. Everyone just accepted it wasn’t their strength, and focused on what they were good at.

This is a great post. One for the ‘we’ve tried everything to build a side around him’ brigade to mull over. The reality is he’s been forced to play in areas of the pitch that don’t suit his strengths for 90% of his time here….when he’s been played in positions that suit his strengths he’s performed really well, then been shoved back into double pivots and criticised again for not playing to the same standards. He’s generally done well anywhere he’s been asked to play and got on with it for five years. Others complain after six months of not playing in their preferred positions.

 

[hubbuh]

I don't think there's any doubting that United dropped the ball with Pogba. Fergie left and ever since we've been spending lots of money on different pieces of different puzzles, jamming them altogether and hoping something fits. Pogba hasn't been the only victim of Utd's post Fergie malaise as a club (though he's probably the most talented and biggest name, so gets spoken about the most).

He's a player that's made to play in a team that primarily dominates. We're sorting of getting there, so it'd be a big shame for him to leave now though understandable from his point of view. We really need Ole to drop his slightly conservative leanings and trust Pogba in a midfield 2/3 in big games again. There's waaaaay too little creativity in McFred, it's no wonder we drew or lost the majority of the big games.

 

[MUFCAFC]

I wonder how much Chelsea would realistically want for Kante, he’s 30 now...

Naturally they wouldn’t want to sell but money talks, especially as a player ages.

 

[mitchmouse]

Who keeps count? And what is the definition of "boss"? Are you expecting him to put in 10/10 games week by week? It's such a weirdly subjective term, especially when used in the context of a team sport.
He's more consistent and productive to our chance creation than not which is what I expect from a playmaking midfielder. I think we were a much better team when he returned from injury, and I think his contributions played a big part in us reaching the EL final, and finishing 2nd in the league.
I believe that if some of our players weren't playing through fatigue & injury and were able to provide more of an attacking threat by making runs off the ball, and finishing chances like they do in the French NT, his influence would've been even greater. I also accept that he can do more, but like I said in a different post - there are so many more players who should be the ones up for scrutiny in terms of providing more for the team before we talk about Pogba.

So you don't think we should expect more a "world class" player? And it's fairly easy to keep count of those performances because there weren't nearly enough - by boss I mean outplay players at Fulham and Sheff Utd to mention just two

 

[villain]

So you don't think we should expect more a "world class" player? And it's fairly easy to keep count of those performances because there weren't nearly enough - by boss I mean outplay players at Fulham and Sheff Utd to mention just two

How about you define what a ‘world class’ performance is for a central midfielder.
Then give us examples of central midfielders who consistently give world class performances, and how many world class performances those midfielders have had in recent years.

As @Rozay pointed out, we don’t watch other midfielders over the course of 38 games, and only see glimpses when they do well, therefore we’re led to believe that they consistently perform to that standard, and they don’t.

 

[Jeppers7]

So you don't think we should expect more a "world class" player? And it's fairly easy to keep count of those performances because there weren't nearly enough - by boss I mean outplay players at Fulham and Sheff Utd to mention just two

Did you watch United v Fulham and Sheff United away last season

 

[Pow]

I wonder how much Chelsea would realistically want for Kante, he’s 30 now...

Naturally they wouldn’t want to sell but money talks, especially as a player ages.

Don't think he's the kind to be tempted by money. Besides most reports say he will be signing a new deal soon. They better off giving us pogba

 

[mitchmouse]

Did you watch United v Fulham and Sheff United away last season

you asked for examples, I gave you two. you can move the goalposts as much as you like, it doesn't change the times Pogba has been anonymous

 

[mitchmouse]

How about you define what a ‘world class’ performance is for a central midfielder.
Then give us examples of central midfielders who consistently give world class performances, and how many world class performances those midfielders have had in recent years.

As @Rozay pointed out, we don’t watch other midfielders over the course of 38 games, and only see glimpses when they do well, therefore we’re led to believe that they consistently perform to that standard, and they don’t.

I didn't call him world class - I said people in the caf do. but I don't need to define it: I can say Roy Keane, I can say almost the entire City midfield, I can say Cruyff and Zidane, I can say Modric. And I can tell you what isn't: six goals and six assists

 

[Jeppers7]

you asked for examples, I gave you two. you can move the goalposts as much as you like, it doesn't change the times Pogba has been anonymous

Im not sure what you’re talking about if I’m honest? I’ve not moved the goalposts. You’re talking about Pogba being anonymous against teams he was outstanding against last season.

 

[villain]

I didn't call him world class - I said people in the caf do. but I don't need to define it: I can say Roy Keane, I can say almost the entire City midfield, I can say Cruyff and Zidane, I can say Modric. And I can tell you what isn't: six goals and six assists

You certainly need to define "boss the midfield" since that was your initial criteria. I would argue that "bossing" the midfield isn't about stats. Assists yes - but mostly pass completion, key passes & chances created, especially considering Pogba doesn't play #10. Someone who bosses the midfield to me, is one who builds play from deep, makes the team better by creating chances and is a presence in the middle of the park that the opposition need to devise a plan to try and stop. Pogba fits that description to me. But would be interested to hear your definition.

Not really sure what the point is in naming Cruyff and Zidane, firstly they're literally GOATs, nobody can compare to them, secondly they played in completely different eras. Keane is a completely different type of midfielder too. Why not chuck in Sir Bobby, and Maradona?

Also a lot of context needs to applied here; Modric, KdB, Kroos, Gundogan, Goretzka etc play in considerably better teams that expect to win minimum 1 trophy a year. Beyond that, it's much easier to get assists when you're laying it on a plate to Lewandowski, Benzema, Aguero versus the shambles of strikers we've suffered from for years. Also it's much easier to focus on attacking when you have the likes of Casemiro, Fernandinho or Kimmich playing defensively. Finally, when you're in a successful team that wins things, your performances get amplified and given more weight than if you're in an unsuccessful team. We're still in the beginning stages of transforming from a top 4 contender, to an established top 4 team.

Even then, Modric and Pogba actually have similar statistics in their respective domestic leagues, which goes back to the point about not watching other players in different teams over the course of 38 weeks, 2x a week - we only see the highlights of a lot these players.

 

[mitchmouse]

You certainly need to define "boss the midfield" since that was your initial criteria. I would argue that "bossing" the midfield isn't about stats. Assists yes - but mostly pass completion, key passes & chances created, especially considering Pogba doesn't play #10. Someone who bosses the midfield to me, is one who builds play from deep, makes the team better by creating chances and is a presence in the middle of the park that the opposition need to devise a plan to try and stop. Pogba fits that description to me. But would be interested to hear your definition.

Not really sure what the point is in naming Cruyff and Zidane, firstly they're literally GOATs, nobody can compare to them, secondly they played in completely different eras. Keane is a completely different type of midfielder too. Why not chuck in Sir Bobby, and Maradona?

Also a lot of context needs to applied here; Modric, KdB, Kroos, Gundogan, Goretzka etc play in considerably better teams that expect to win minimum 1 trophy a year. Beyond that, it's much easier to get assists when you're laying it on a plate to Lewandowski, Benzema, Aguero versus the shambles of strikers we've suffered from for years. Also it's much easier to focus on attacking when you have the likes of Casemiro, Fernandinho or Kimmich playing defensively. Finally, when you're in a successful team that wins things, your performances get amplified and given more weight than if you're in an unsuccessful team. We're still in the beginning stages of transforming from a top 4 contender, to an established top 4 team.

Even then, Modric and Pogba actually have similar statistics in their respective domestic leagues, which goes back to the point about not watching other players in different teams over the course of 38 weeks, 2x a week - we only see the highlights of a lot these players.

I've continually said what "boss the midfield" means to me: run the game, be involved in almost everything. You can say Keano was a different player but I disagree - his performance at Juve in 1999 sums up what I mean by "boss"

I was asked to name players who i think bossed games and did -not sure how you can discount the names I gave because they (in your words, not mine) are GOATS. That's my point! Pogba isn't and never threatens to be for United

 

[Mainoldo]

Man don’t want him to get knocked out so he can get some rest too??

 

[IrishRedDevil]

A class above the rest on the pitch.

 

[Cassidy]

Amazing player

 

[Member 109952]

Man don’t want him to get knocked out so he can get some rest too??

Nah it's a joy watching him play for France, rather watch play for them as much as possible. Some of these passes and dribbles are

 

[Mainoldo]

Nah it's a joy watching him play for France, rather watch play for them as much as possible. Some of these passes and dribbles are

I know world class man!! Different level to his teammates.. well and Benzema’s touch.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

“Mctominay is better”

 

[Raredaredevil]

Where is this Pogba for us? Infuriating.

 

[Nero]

Where is this Pogba for us? Infuriating.

Seen it plenty of times. Don't be manipulated by narrative.

 

[Mainoldo]

“Mctominay is better”

“Bruno Fernandes is better”

 

[roonster09]

“Mctominay is better”

"Lazy twat, James is showing how shit Pogba is"

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

“Bruno Fernandes is better”

Almost equally laughable to be honest.

 

[ha_rooney]

We cannot lose him.

 

[Mainoldo]

Crown him.

 

[roonster09]

Wow, what a goal