To be fair, he was Whoscored's best player on the pitch regardless of the score.
6
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 22
- Goals
- 1
- Assists
- 4
- Yellow cards
- 2
- Status
Yesterday (Sevilla) we were up against quality. He didn't let himself down. He oozes quality. Wish we could see a bit more of it though!
Now now, no need to be like that is there? A bit of Pogba criticism and the cultists come out in uproar.
He’s quite obviously better than any of our other midfielders, that’s not up for debate. But for me he really isn’t doing the job we need him to do in this team and we’ll struggle to effectively control the midfield with him in the side for reasons I’ve already highlighted.
No doubt he’s a good player and he’s capable of some brilliant moments, but they simply mask his deficiencies.
What's strange about expecting more in our biggest game of the season from a guy who has all the tools to dominate games but consistently fails to do so?
Thought Pogba played well. Poor defending and not converting opportunities is what cost us.
He did play quite well, but it would be nice if occasionally he was outstanding.
I thought Pogba was outstanding, bar a few annoying misplaced passes when he was intercepting the ball or getting it from the opposition players. We have to consider the fitness preparations, I think both him and Rashford are far away from actually being 100% match fit, they don't always look physically or mentally sharp, but I saw Pogba absolutely giving his all, pressing and going into challenges as if his life depended on it. He was visibly gassed at one point, Fred was also working on pure adrenaline at the end of the game.
We totally outplayed Sevilla, I know people are angry and with reason, but last time we met them, they totally outplayed us and we were saved by a brilliant DDG performance. If we have to point fingers at someone, it should be the forwards and the full-backs, Martial and Rashford won the penalty, but otherwise they were incredibly wasteful. The game should had been finished during the early stages of the second half, Sevilla had no answer to us.
It might partly be down to positional reponsibilities, but I don't think he is quite back to his pre injury fitness levels yet, holding back somewhat in his running. He is covering ground but not much of it at high intensity, still has more ability than almost any player he comes up against but after his bright start it has been more of a feeling his way back couple of months.
Aside from possession, passes, and midfield heat map you mean. Pogba is good at being creative, not at dominating the midfield.
I think you'll find if you click on the 3 midfielders for each team and their heat maps, that ours were a good 5-10 yards further forward on average. Possession? 53/47... You're saying we failed to dominate the midfield because they had 53% possession? Who gives a feck? We restricted them from creating chances through the middle, we restricted them from getting in behind our midfield and we pushed them back for most of the game and had them keeping possession in deeper positions, while supplying our attackers in dangerous positions and creating loads. That's literally everything involved in midfield performances.
I don't disagree to an extent and there can be a bit more balance but I got to ask, how do you think he or anyone can keep it 'simple'? People always say 'keep it simple' but what does that actually mean? Is it along the lines of moving the ball faster, less daillying, play more conservatively etc right?
Ok then, now who do you think those passes will go to and in which areas of pitches?
Because for Pogba or anyone in the team to keep it simple and play in a congested midfield, with smart opposition who press well, that essentially means playing more square passes to your AWB/sWilliams, more back passes to your centre backs and less vertical passing. That would mean your Rashfords, Fernandes, Greenwoods and Martials needing to drop and play even more of a part in the build up than they already do.
There's always this assumption that if you keep it simple, somehow we will magically retain possession better or create more chances because 'less dallying and risk taking'. I will readily agree Pogba is guilty of over playing but don't you see it's a fundamental issue that we need a technical genius in the deepest two to have these moments before we can even get out of our half? You're having a laugh if you expect De Gea, Lindelof, AWB and Maguire to an extent are going to be playing passes to the midfield in the centre of the pitch so we just happen to progressively move into the opposition pitch.
In a well coached team, if Pogba was doing what he was doing at the deepest two, I'd agree his risk taking would be self indulgent but we are not. We are an all guns blazing, instinctive, run ourselves into the ground and hope to blitz the opposition team with little nuance.
Are you really comparing the performances of those players, who have played with elite players and managers most of their career? Those players were great individuals and made up great teams because they also had great team mates. Neither of those players 'controlled' a midfield or team on their own. They could run ragged the opposition with their passing and control because they only had to draw a pressing player in and then pop it it off to Ronaldo, Messi, Eto, Ronaldinho, Villa, Alba, Alves, Marcelo etc etc, who were all individual threats.
Imagine Pogba popping it off and trying to play one touch triangles with AWB/Williams, an out of form Rashford and Fernandes who is 15 yards away. Actually don't, we've seen plenty of it the past month. Also the last bolded bit is more apt for Fernandes.
I'm not absolving Pogba of any individual criticism but the context and objective thought is just ridiculous when you have these wild expectations and comparisons. I think this post below sums it up well:
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Is that figure accurate?
Even if it's accurate it's nothing. You play 50 passes with 90% accuracy, you are still giving away ball around 10 times. It's hilarious how the stats are abused.
Pogba completed 65 passes at 89% accuracy, that itself means he gave away possession around 8 times.
It's hilarious how stats are twisted but not surprising.
Talking about stats btw,
Pogba completed 65 passes at 89%, only Banega completed more passes in the entire game.
Pogba created 4 chances - most by anyone on the pitch, Bruno also created 4 chances.
Pogba completed 9/11 dribbles he attempted, that's insane for CM. Only Banega was close with 7/9. Rest all Sevilla team combined completed 7 dribbles
He also won 3 tackles, only 4 players from both sides won more than that.
It's hilarious the shit he is getting and even more with irrelevant stats like "gave the ball away". It's always topped by players who takes lot of risks, KdB topped it in 2017-18, TAA topped it in 2018-19.
It wasn't his best game or anywhere close to that but he had good game. Most of our players had good games, our problem was finishing off the chances. If we did that then people would have praised the same performance.
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I thought he was top class against Sevilla.
I absolutely agree with you. I was just wondering where they got that figure him as it seemed way off to my recollection and I had a brief look at the pass completion as well.
There's a huge tendency to focus on the negative when criticising certain players, even when it's outweighed by the good.
Yes, it is. It frustrated me during the game, then I came here and the praise left me in utter disbelieve. So I watched a summary of his game, counted and ended up at 12 or 13 possession losses (he played a very dumb long ball on Rashford that technically wasn't a failed pass but lead to a throw in for Seville). It's also the fashion in which he gives away the ball. It's so unnecessary. He almost always has an easy option but he tries to force it or goes into unnecessary dribblings. I guarantee you don't see such stuff from players like Kroos but most people in here seem to only remember the bad passes if there are no good ones to cover it.
00:07
00:18 (but not his fault)
00:48
01:00
01:10
01:16
01:22
01:50
02:27
03:13 (just why?)
03:54 (that's the long ball I menat)
04:11
As I said, the most frustrating thing is that he generally is able to keep it simple and it improves his game so, so much. Sometimes he reminds me of a youth player whose decision making has to improve but the abilities are there. And as I said, watching him play you don't even get the feeling that he thinks his wastefulness is an issue.
More chance of him being outstanding playing alongside Matic. Doesn't work with Fred!
It's just not just looking for positives or negatives, it's just the abuse of stats. Player who plays risky passes will give away possession and 10-12 times is nothing.
For example, if someone posts a stat saying "Pogba gave away possession 13 times" people just go with "what a shit player" mode.
If some other site/account says 65/73 passes with most of them in final third, it will set the tone with "Wow that's some good game he had".
People also want to view player from their own spectrum, we don't play possession football. Ole said it many times that he wants his midfielders to look for forward passes instead of sideways for the sake of it, we play in the exact way. If we have Van Gaal suddenly all these players will play safe passes as that's what manager wants.
You watch the scenes I noted and think that are usual possession losses for a risk-minded midfielder? 80% were pretty dumb and predictable. His good passes were actually those that weren't ambitious but quick short passes to the better positioned player.
And as I mentioned, he showed in this game that he an keep it simple, what makes his dumb passes all the more frustrating.
Didn't he complete more passes and dribbles than any other player on the pitch against Sevilla?
"Keep it simple" is just useless term, his switch of play has created many chances. We play in a way where midfielders look for quick forward passes, switch of play is commonly used phase of play to switch the attack or create 1v1 situation with FB.
You also mentioned his misplaced pass where he used his laces, he played same pass in previous game which created chance.
All this would be easy to see if you understand there are more than 1 way to play football.
Also I don't understand why you even replied to my post considering we have done this 100 times with completely different views.
Because we've got a specific example this time and I even gave you the minute marks of these actions. I'm honestly completely baffled how one can rewatch these scenes and not criticize them. Among those scenes, especially in the first half, were many, many passes/dribblings which had close to zero possibility of not leading to a possession loss and he almost always had an easier option. If you allow a player so many attempts it puts his number of through balls in perspective.
I'm not against switches of play by the way, they're a very good tool to put players in one on ones. But I'm against them when the receiving player is under immediate pressure, with the back to goal, the defender hugging him from behind and no team mate in the proximity of 15 meters around him to lay it off to. You don't play such a pass if you've got other options that have a 99% success probability. Those are basics.
This also has nothing to do with your playing style. Just because I say he's impatient doesn't mean I don't want him to pass forward. But if the ball will get intercepted when you play the pass, you don't make this pass. You say "keep it simple" is a useless term but ironically, his best actions occurred when he did exactly that. Look at the chances he created for Martial exemplarily. Keep it simple, don't do crazy stuff too early in the build up of an attack. Those are the situations you want to end up in. If your main midfielder gives the ball away so often, you end up getting into less of them.
Good post. Sums up my own frustrations with him. Interesting to see concrete evidence to back my impression up. There’s a truly great player in there somewhere if he cuts out these bad decisions but he’s at an age where you wonder if that will ever happen.
In the same video, there are similar incidents where he made those "Dumb decisions" and then retained possession, played the pass to player in better position to create chance. You have just highlighted just misplaced passes, and some of them are just hilarious too just he tried to play Greenwood with his weaker foot which would have created good chance to Greenwood.
Main midfielder had 89% pass completion, that's good for any midfielder, especially the one who creates chances.
Anyways I'm done with this, I have done this many times and I have no interest to repeat the same posts again and again.
Midfielders sometimes take their time to mature. I wouldn't rule it out but in all honesty, I don't think it will happen at this. As I said, he doesn't seem to bother too much about it and I don't have the impression that he even gets the feedback. The fans are okay with it as it seems, the coaching staff apparently too. I believe the Mourinho years unfortunately affected his development. Had he had a more progressive coach in this crucial years, he could be a different player by now.
The reality is they scored 2 goals out of 3 chances. This won the game for them.
Good post, I find it surprising that Pogba got so much stick considering we dominated the game and one of the reason was midfield who created plenty of chances. it was just bad day for the attackers who missed plenty of chances.
I actually feel that "keeping it simple" is limiting his full potential. It's so obvious in his play that the coaching staff is kinda forcing him to play simple.
Him playing it simple at DM next to Fred/Matic is absolutely useless, that;s something that most fans don't get. If you have both of your CM's playing simple you pass the ball sideways and absolutely nothing happens. In the Sevilla game Bruno was at times playing as a 3rd midfielder because of this.
In the 2nd half Pogba played a bit different and shifted from passing sideways to trying to get rid of the two men pressing him, thus, in some plays it worked and in some it didn't. What do you want him to do when there are no other options, pass it sideways/backwards?
People thinking you can have a player like Pogba, SMS, hell, even KDB trying to do stuff without losing the ball a few times are absolutely crazy. Check KDB's game in UCL and you'll see what I mean.
If you expect some otherworldly level of consistency from a player that is played out of position and has the shackles on, you're going to be in for a disappointment.
Him playing it simple at DM next to Fred/Matic is absolutely useless, that;s something that most fans don't get. If you have both of your CM's playing simple you pass the ball sideways and absolutely nothing happens. In the Sevilla game Bruno was at times playing as a 3rd midfielder because of this.
In the 2nd half Pogba played a bit different and shifted from passing sideways to trying to get rid of the two men pressing him, thus, in some plays it worked and in some it didn't. What do you want him to do when there are no other options, pass it sideways/backwards?
People thinking you can have a player like Pogba, SMS, hell, even KDB trying to do stuff without losing the ball a few times are absolutely crazy. Check KDB's game in UCL and you'll see what I mean.
If you expect some otherworldly level of consistency from a player that is played out of position and has the shackles on, you're going to be in for a disappointment.
Was exactly the other way round, IMO. He became better once he kept it simple and tried the difficult stuff in the first half. See the scenes I mentioned.
Also, I couldn't disagree more in general. You're gifting the ball to the opposition far too many times with a midfielder that's so wasteful. Especially if you play a big team, this is really painful, since it requires big effort to get it back. Bayern or PSG exemplarily will punish you for that big time.
That we are still here having a debate about whether Pogba had a good game or not after Sunday just underlines that critique has gone way past rational or objective. For many posters, for Pogba to just have a very good game, not a little praise mixed with some criticism for ‘balance’ - but just an acceptance that he had a good game - it seems a totally different metric to even other top players.
I think it’s too late for Pogba to be in the good graces of many who have felt a certain way for so long. Again, after the final, the same posters came with the ‘not good in this portion of the game, good in that portion of the game’ comments that are literally never applied elsewhere. Or ‘still a bit sloppy’. What does that even mean? A non-100% pass completion? A couple losses of possession, which people are no doubt scribbling down every game?It creates a narrative, but by such standards, it is almost literally impossible to not be sloppy when you are under this ‘Ball giveaway-o-meter’ that doesn’t apply to anyone else. You will never not give the ball away. You will never not be tackled during a take-on. Against Lyon, all anyone had to talk about after the match was that Kevin played a wonderful pass with the outside of his foot. If they chose to, it could have been ‘scored a goal, some great moments in the second half, but poor for the first 20 minutes’. That 5-minute, by 5-minute report card doesn’t apply to him or anyone else though. He just played well. It’s not complicated.
It didn’t take long to revert to norm. When PP returned from injury in June, due to his absence, people were full of praise for the first few games. Unadulterated praise too, not even the backhanded type. He had about 3 below par games after that, but against Copenhagen and Sevilla, he’s played no differently to how he was playing just after lockdown, but the reactions are starting to change back to a default setting.
Apart from a few who are labelled ‘cultists’ or ‘fanatics’ - Redcafe generally talks about Pogba how I would expect them to if he played for Liverpool or City. Certain posters so obviously go out of their way to discredit. If there is anything that can warrant them marking a performance down, it will be taken, while it is so clear after a good game that it is almost ‘with regret’ that they have to say ‘he was alright’ - and then quickly move on to any losses of possession or that they want to see him (the central midfielder) winning these games himself. It’s actually starting to become more and more apparent after every game now, to the point where there isn’t really much point engaging with it anymore.
I think it’s too late for Pogba to be in the good graces of many who have felt a certain way for so long. Again, after the final, the same posters came with the ‘not good in this portion of the game, good in that portion of the game’ comments that are literally never applied elsewhere. Or ‘still a bit sloppy’. What does that even mean? A non-100% pass completion? A couple losses of possession, which people are no doubt scribbling down every game?It creates a narrative, but by such standards, it is almost literally impossible to not be sloppy when you are under this ‘Ball giveaway-o-meter’ that doesn’t apply to anyone else. You will never not give the ball away. You will never not be tackled during a take-on. Against Lyon, all anyone had to talk about after the match was that Kevin played a wonderful pass with the outside of his foot. If they chose to, it could have been ‘scored a goal, some great moments in the second half, but poor for the first 20 minutes’. That 5-minute, by 5-minute report card doesn’t apply to him or anyone else though. He just played well. It’s not complicated.
It didn’t take long to revert to norm. When PP returned from injury in June, due to his absence, people were full of praise for the first few games. Unadulterated praise too, not even the backhanded type. He had about 3 below par games after that, but against Copenhagen and Sevilla, he’s played no differently to how he was playing just after lockdown, but the reactions are starting to change back to a default setting.
Apart from a few who are labelled ‘cultists’ or ‘fanatics’ - Redcafe generally talks about Pogba how I would expect them to if he played for Liverpool or City. Certain posters so obviously go out of their way to discredit. If there is anything that can warrant them marking a performance down, it will be taken, while it is so clear after a good game that it is almost ‘with regret’ that they have to say ‘he was alright’ - and then quickly move on to any losses of possession or that they want to see him (the central midfielder) winning these games himself. It’s actually starting to become more and more apparent after every game now, to the point where there isn’t really much point engaging with it anymore.
First of all I'd take umbrage with a number of these:
00:18 (but not his fault): that pass went to his intended target who mis-controlled it.
00:48: He slipped, it happens
03:13 (just why?): Why did he take a shot? Are you for real?
03:54 (that's the long ball I menat) : The long ball where we retained possession?
You are nit-picking here and it's a bit ridiculous to be perfectly honest.
As @roonster09 has said he had a pass completion of 89% and could have had two or three assists so I'm not really sure why you're obsessed with the moments when things don't come off.
If you go back through the match and count up all the times he successfully dribbles, gets himself out of trouble or finds team-mates with his passes and take the 8 or 9 (revised down as you are being overly harsh imo) as a percentage of that figure you'll probably find your answer as to why he doesn't seem bothered by the ones that don't come off.
He's more than likely encouraged by the manager and coaches to be brave and keep trying things as he is capable of moments of magic and that's what creates goals.
If he always 'kept it simple' and passed to a nearby teammate and ended up with a pass completion of 100%, there'd be no point in him being on the pitch.
Or, you know, people see football different to you and genuinely criticize him for his wastefulness. I have no agenda against Pogba, why would I? I'm not a United fan, not even a fan of an English team. But everytime I watch him play I see the same stuff that would absolutely infuriate me if I was in fact a United supporter - and it infuriates me if our players do it, too.
The scenes I listened I are dumb decisions of him. Not in a certain system but in general. Why does he take a shot that has an xG of maybe 0.02? Why does he play passes that are impossible to get at the end of? Why does he play a 40m long ball with his weak foot to a marked and isolated Rashford when he could play a short pass? Why does he play through balls in spaces that are defended or through lines that are marked? Why does he decide to turn into two players instead playing an easy sideways pass to retain possession?
Those aren't "yes, he could've retained the ball but the possibility of creating a chance justified the risk" situations. Those are "well, even my grandmother could've predicted that this ball will end up in the opponent's feet" situations.
The main midfielder in a top team can't allow himself such stuff. If he does, his output must be exceptional like de Bruyne's - and even he is less wasteful - and Pogba's isn't. Don't underestimate ball retention. Especially against teams that like having the ball and play long passing sequences, it is deadly if you give it back to them so easily and unprovoked. At least let them work for it.
Good post, "keep it simple" is one more thing people use when they don't know what to say. Why should Pogba keep it simple when he can take risk and create chances. We already have "Keep is safe player" in DM. it's not like Pogba went to hollywood passes all the time either.
He took on players, beat them and played passes to player in good position (usually Bruno) who either created chance or made progressive passes. He lost the ball twice yesterday in 11 attempts and people want to highlight those 2 failed chances instead of praising those 9 times when he beat the player to make progressive passes.
Like you said, he can't win. people have already made their decisions and if he "keeps it simple" people will come up with "we don't need Pogba to keep it simple, even Cleverley can do that".
It was hilarious though, trying to paint his performance as bad because he lost ball around 10 times which is normal for any player.
Maybe because he didn't check statsbomb before taking the shot
If we go by this ridiculous logic, any long shot attempt is a dumb move as they don't have xg greater than 0.02.
Wonder if this was also dumb move
Also you more or less proved @Rozay's point with this point.
00:18: As I said (and as you quoted me saying): Not his fault.
00:48: No, he turned into two defending players although he had the option to pass to the CB.
03:13: Yes, because he could take that shot 50 times and it would go in maybe once
03:54: No, Rashford headed that ball out of the field.
And as I said, this game proved that he can do better so I don't get why you're pointing out all the other stuff. I said that he's too wasteful in possession for a top midfielder and actually played good when he decided to keep it simple. And no, "keeping it simply" doesn't mean just easy sideway passings. He created the chances for Martial by playing simple.
Are we finally going to get the real Paul Pogba to stand up and be counted next season? I seriously hope so.
This year has been difficult due to injuries but because of the covid break he's still managed to play over a third of our games. 1 goal in 23 games is simply not good enough for a player with his ability. 4 assists isn't either.
Next season there can be no more excuses made for him. No more ifs and buts. He's got to finally deliver a consistent season from start to finish.
This year has been difficult due to injuries but because of the covid break he's still managed to play over a third of our games. 1 goal in 23 games is simply not good enough for a player with his ability. 4 assists isn't either.
Next season there can be no more excuses made for him. No more ifs and buts. He's got to finally deliver a consistent season from start to finish.
Maybe because he didn't check statsbomb before taking the shot
If we go by this ridiculous logic, any long shot attempt is a dumb move as they don't have xg greater than 0.02.
Wonder if this was also dumb move
Also you more or less proved @Rozay's point with this point.
Yes, it was a dumb move.
Maybe because he didn't check statsbomb before taking the shot
If we go by this ridiculous logic, any long shot attempt is a dumb move as they don't have xg greater than 0.02.
Wonder if this was also dumb move
Also you more or less proved @Rozay's point with this point.
Worldies are now banned. All footballers should be joyless sideways passing drones
Why would anyone judge CM playing in midfield 2 in a 4-2-3-1 on goals? His job is to create chances, spray passes. We have 4 attackers to score goals.
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