[horsechoker]

People preparing for this thread when Pogba doesn't single handedly rescue United

 

[roonster09]

Calling him a good player is shitting on him? Thats what he is. A good player. World class players do it week in week out. He doesn't.

OK.

 

[The Original]

Admittedly I haven't been keeping a specific ledger on this so perhaps it is a bit of confirmation bias. That said, do we not expect more from a player of his reputation and talent level than what we have seen since his return?

Okay other than a few high profile errors, what are your exact expectations of a centre midfielder and how has Paul failed to deliver?

 

[The Original]

Why? So because im a United fan I have to be blinded by club loyalty. Paul Pogba is a good player. He's one of our better players for sure. But he won't be ever world class in my eyes until he starts performing week in week out like KDB does. That's why I bring him up. He's got the ability to do it. He's just never been consistent for us and people on here make excuses for him.

Bruno has come in and shown consistency without knowing the club, players or league. That speak volumes.

What is your definition of performing? Pogba doesn't play in KDB's position, whereas Bruno does. So take a player in a similar position, who you think is world class, and let's compare. I will also give you the chance to set the terms of the comparison, i.e which metrics to go by.

 

[roonster09]

Admittedly I haven't been keeping a specific ledger on this so perhaps it is a bit of confirmation bias. That said, do we not expect more from a player of his reputation and talent level than what we have seen since his return?

I thought he did well, his passing from deer was class, he had his bad moments too like losing possession in very dangerous areas but overall I thought he did well.

Can he do better as he is very talented player? I think he can.
Did he do well since coming back? I think so.

Thought Southampton was his worst game, lost possession few times and never looked like making impact (I know odd thing to say when he played good enough role for both goals).

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Okay other than a few high profile errors, what are your exact expectations of a centre midfielder and how has Paul failed to deliver?

He has only 1 goal and 1 assist since the return. Whilst Bruno now leads the midfield in an attacking sense I'd like to see more output from Pogba in that regard. Moreover some inspiration when things aren't going well i.e. him taking the lead on the pitch rather than sinking with the rest of the players.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

What is your definition of performing? Pogba doesn't play in KDB's position, whereas Bruno does. So take a player in a similar position, who you think is world class, and let's compare. I will also give you the chance to set the terms of the comparison, i.e which metrics to go by.

I'm sorry but this is nonsense. Paul Pogba has played in several midfield roles for us numerous times. He's not always played as the deep player and KDB sometimes plays that deeper role for City anyway depending on who is in the team with him.

Pogba is a good player and one of our better players but he needs to show consistency. It's 4 years since he signed and he's still not showing it. This season has been hard with his injuries granted but world class players show more consistency than he does. He's just the level below for me. Has the ability to do it too which is annoying as hell.

 

[Hammondo]

Some people defending Pogba and I understand it. He wasn't the worst player but the position he plays is the most important. Central midfielders are meant to run teams, that's their job and we are setup for that to happen. So for us to stop being dominated by Chelsea in that game, one of our central midfielders are supposed to step up and get control of the game. You can do it with hard work with closing down, or you can do it by being better on the ball than the opposition.

Pogba did neither, and it highlights a problem that we do not have a player who can. We were not setup to win the midfield battle with pressing because of Matic + Pogba = feck all pressure. So we had to win the game with a midfield general to run out game, and Pogba didn't do it.

His talent is amazing, technically fantastic and his passing range is amazing, but whats his role in the team? Because from what I have seen in every game is that he does half a CM role.

 

[The Original]

I'm sorry but this is nonsense. Paul Pogba has played in several midfield roles for us numerous times. He's not always played as the deep player and KDB sometimes plays that deeper role for City anyway depending on who is in the team with him.

Pogba is a good player and one of our better players but he needs to show consistency. It's 4 years since he signed and he's still not showing it. This season has been hard with his injuries granted but world class players show more consistency than he does. He's just the level below for me. Has the ability to do it too which is annoying as hell.

The conversation has so far centered on his performances since the restart, hasn't it?

 

[The Original]

He has only 1 goal and 1 assist since the return. Whilst Bruno now leads the midfield in an attacking sense I'd like to see more output from Pogba in that regard. Moreover some inspiration when things aren't going well i.e. him taking the lead on the pitch rather than sinking with the rest of the players.

You must have a very poor opinion of the likes of Scholes then...since in his latter years he played in the same position and had very little by way of goals and assists... do you have a poor opinion of Scholes?

 

[Nou_Camp99]

The conversation has so far centered on his performances since the restart, hasn't it?

Im talking about his 4 years as a whole. I think he's been steady since the restart nothing more. Villa was his best game where he got a goal.

Nobody is blaming for yesterday as he didn't even start and the whole team was a mess anyway. There's a lot more to come from Pogba hopefully next season. Like I said he's still a valuable player for us but he needs to play 4 good gaes out of 5 for me to really merit the praise he gets. Right now he's more like a 2 good games out of 5.

 

[roonster09]

Some people defending Pogba and I understand it. He wasn't the worst player but the position he plays is the most important. Central midfielders are meant to run teams, that's their job and we are setup for that to happen. So for us to stop being dominated by Chelsea in that game, one of our central midfielders are supposed to step up and get control of the game. You can do it with hard work with closing down, or you can do it by being better on the ball than the opposition.

Pogba did neither, and it highlights a problem that we do not have a player who can. We were not setup to win the midfield battle with pressing because of Matic + Pogba = feck all pressure. So we had to win the game with a midfield general to run out game, and Pogba didn't do it.

His talent is amazing, technically fantastic and his passing range is amazing, but whats his role in the team? Because from what I have seen in every game is that he does half a CM role.

No that's not their role. Watch Ole's interview and he says how he wants his team to play. He wants his team to play forward passes quickly, which means we wont be controlling midfield or playing possession football. Even last season when he gave interview with Neville, he said he don't like passes for the sake of it, he wants his players to look for forward passes.

Midfielders running the game depends on which manager is in charge. We dominated midfield of Yaya, Fernandinho, KbB, Silva (all of them or 3 of them playing) with midfield of Herrera, Fellaini when Van Gaal was our manager. Now the same City midfield dominates every midfield in the league, that's because Pep sets up that way.

 

[G-manc]

Other than Aston Villa and Southampton, in which games since the restart has he lost possession in poor positions?

Yesterday

 

[MattofManchester]

Looked like the player trying to do it all by himself again against Chelsea. Kept dallying on the ball and not trusting his teammates. I don't think he ever had. Then again, every time he did pass the ball, it seemed like the result was after was a pass backwards.

I also feel like this new role is stifling him. Yes, the team as a whole is more important, but wouldn't the team be better served with him being played in a role that compliments the abilities that have made people call him World Class(when on his day)?

 

[The Original]

Im talking about his 4 years as a whole. I think he's been steady since the restart nothing more. Villa was his best game where he got a goal.

Nobody is blaming for yesterday as he didn't even start and the whole team was a mess anyway. There's a lot more to come from Pogba hopefully next season. Like I said he's still a valuable player for us but he needs to play 4 good gaes out of 5 for me to really merit the praise he gets. Right now he's more like a 2 good games out of 5.

How do you develop a frame of reference to compare the two players over the past four years? They weren't playing with similar quality of player. and for that matter KDB still has a much better supporting group around him. Not to mention having the benefit of playing under Pep...if the contexts are not the same how do you evaluate his output?

What if we compare the periods when Pogba played in Juventus and for France to When KDB played in Germany and for Belgium?

 

[Classical Mechanic]

You must have a very poor opinion of the likes of Scholes then...since in his latter years he played in the same position and had very little by way of goals and assists... do you have a poor opinion of Scholes?

I don't really find this to be an apt comparison. Scholes was a metronomic type of midfielder in his latter career, more analagous to Kross in the modern game. Scholes would register 90% plus pass completion whilst playing more long passes than Pogba. Pogba's pass completion is lower because it's more adventurous and attacking so you expect more attacking output. I don't think Pogba is the guy to look after the ball for 90 minutes and dictate tempo like Scholes did.

That said, I think what is disapppointing about Pogba is that he doesn't take charge on the pitch when you need him to, in bad moments for the team. You may disagree on this point but I think if he's to be heralded as one of the great midfield players of his generation then he needs to do this more often.

 

[The Original]

Yesterday

Really, what incident was that?

 

[The Original]

I don't really find this to be an apt comparison. Scholes was a metronomic type of midfielder in his latter career, more analagous to Kross in the modern game. Scholes would register 90% plus pass completion whilst playing more long passes than Pogba. Pogba's pass completion is lower because it's more adventurous and attacking so you expect more attacking output. I don't think Pogba is the guy to look after the ball for 90 minutes and dictate tempo like Scholes did.

That said, I think what is disapppointing about Pogba is that he doesn't take charge on the pitch when you need him to, in bad moments for the team. You may disagree on this point but I think if he's to be heralded as one of the great midfield players of his generation then he needs to do this more often.

They occupy the exact same position on the pitch even if their style of play is somewhat different. But if you reject Scholes for the comparison, then who do you think plays a similar role? Modric? Kroos? Gudnogan?....You name the player.

 

[Hammondo]

No that's not their role. Watch Ole's interview and he says how he wants his team to play. He wants his team to play forward passes quickly, which means we wont be controlling midfield or playing possession football. Even last season when he gave interview with Neville, he said he don't like passes for the sake of it, he wants his players to look for forward passes.

Midfielders running the game depends on which manager is in charge. We dominated midfield of Yaya, Fernandinho, KbB, Silva (all of them or 3 of them playing) with midfield of Herrera, Fellaini when Van Gaal was our manager. Now the same City midfield dominates every midfield in the league, that's because Pep sets up that way.

A team who do not play any sort of midfield control are never going to be a top team. Playing forward passes quickly has nothing to do with if they play midfield control. Liverpool play forward passes quickly but have quite a lot of midfield control with their pressing.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

They occupy the exact same position on the pitch even if their style of play is somewhat different. But if you reject Scholes for the comparison, then who do you think plays a similar role? Modric? Kroos? Gudnogan?....You name the player.

What does any of this have to do with your original point? There's a reason why Scholes didn't achieve as much attacking output as Pogba and that's because he offered different things to the midfield.

You can actually look at Scholes's stats for the tailend of his career in detail

https://www.whoscored.com/Players/11/History/Paul-Scholes

https://www.whoscored.com/Players/97752/History/Paul-Pogba

Scholes was much better at holding on to the ball and retaining possession. Pogba is a risk player so you expect more attacking output.

 

[roonster09]

A team who do not play any sort of midfield control are never going to be a top team. Playing forward passes quickly has nothing to do with if they play midfield control. Liverpool play forward passes quickly but have quite a lot of midfield control with their pressing.

Eh? you think Yaya, Fernandinho, Silva, KdB suddenly got some powers from unknown to start dominating the games, when players like Fellaini, Herrera used to dominate them with Van Gaal as a coach, or do you think Rooney, Fellaini was better than Fabregas, Oscar in controlling the midfield?

Or that players like Winks, Sissoko lost their ability to pass as they don't have midfield control now compared to how it was under Poch.

How coach set up plays the big role in who controls the midfield. It's not as if Henderson was possessed by Xavi's spirit to control the game when he wasn't doing that under Rodgers.

 

[Hammondo]

Eh? you think Yaya, Fernandinho, Silva, KdB suddenly got some powers from unknown to start dominating the games, when players like Fellaini, Herrera used to dominate them with Van Gaal as a coach, or do you think Rooney, Fellaini was better than Fabregas, Oscar in controlling the midfield?

Or that players like Winks, Sissoko lost their ability to pass as they don't have midfield control now compared to how it was under Poch.

How coach set up plays the big role in who controls the midfield. It's not as if Henderson was possessed by Xavi's spirit to control the game when he wasn't doing that under Rodgers.

Of course how the coach sets up the team decides how they control it, just like how Liverpool are setup to control through the press. Pobga does nothing towards any possible way of controlling the midfield. We cannot play to dominate the midfield with him in the team unless we play 4 central midfielders, or him as AM, and hes not anywhere near as good as Bruno at it.

 

[roonster09]

Of course how the coach sets up the team decides how they control it, just like how Liverpool are setup to control through the press. Pobga does nothing towards any possible way of controlling the midfield. We cannot play to dominate the midfield with him in the team unless we play 4 central midfielders, or him as AM, and hes not anywhere near as good as Bruno at it.

Yeah, but Fellaini was the pass master for us controlling the possession isn't it?

 

[Hammondo]

Yeah, but Fellaini was the pass master for us controlling the possession isn't it?

Do you have problems reading? Its not only about passing.

 

[roonster09]

Do you have problems reading? Its not only about passing.

Well I'm trying to make someone understand how midfield role differs for each coach, that poster has failed to understand and wants to blindly blame Pogba.

Now I have to bring the examples to show how midfield control is directly related to who the coach is.

 

[Hammondo]

Well I'm trying to make someone understand how midfield role differs for each coach, that poster has failed to understand and wants to blindly blame Pogba.

Now I have to bring the examples to show how midfield control is directly related to who the coach is.

Yes I see you have a problem with reading as I said that several posts ago.

As I replied there is no setup where Pogba helps with midfield control, he doesn't do it in anyway with any setup. He needs other players to do it for him.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

A team who do not play any sort of midfield control are never going to be a top team. Playing forward passes quickly has nothing to do with if they play midfield control. Liverpool play forward passes quickly but have quite a lot of midfield control with their pressing.

Imagine Guardiola coaching a midfield if Bruno Pogba and Matic

 

[roonster09]

Yes I see you have a problem with reading as I said that several posts ago.

As I replied there is no setup where Pogba helps with midfield control, he doesn't do it in anyway with any setup. He needs other players to do it for him.

What do you mean by midfield control?

 

[The Original]

What does any of this have to do with your original point? There's a reason why Scholes didn't achieve as much attacking output as Pogba and that's because he offered different things to the midfield.

You can actually look at Scholes's stats for the tailend of his career in detail

https://www.whoscored.com/Players/11/History/Paul-Scholes

https://www.whoscored.com/Players/97752/History/Paul-Pogba

Scholes was much better at holding on to the ball and retaining possession. Pogba is a risk player so you expect more attacking output.

My point is that I can't see how Pogba isn't doing exactly what is required of a player in his position. You want him to have more attacking influence but no one who plays centre mid has better-attacking influence, showing that it is typical for players in that position to not have such an influence.

Since the restart, Pogba has not been that risk-taker. When you say that he is, you contradict yourself because bey definition, a risk taker is one who is trying to assert himself attacking-wise, whereas you are saying you wish he would do that more.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

My point is that I can't see how Pogba isn't doing exactly what is required of a player in his position. You want him to have more attacking influence but no one who plays centre mid has better-attacking influence, showing that it is typical for players in that position to not have such an influence.

Since the restart, Pogba has not been that risk-taker. When you say that he is, you contradict yourself because bey definition, a risk taker is one who is trying to assert himself attacking-wise, whereas you are saying you wish he would do that more.

I think we're just going round in circles here. That said, I've said the greatest disappointment for me is him not stepping up to lead the team in a time of minor crisis, instead he's sunk with the level of our worst players. The same thing happened at the tail end of last season. In the past few games Martial, Rashford and Bruno to a lesser extent have stepped up and saved their team mates. I expect Pogba to be doing the same given his reputation. This is the standard you are right to expect from 'world class' players.

 

[Mainoldo]

Did he even play today? I mean I saw him sat in the stands, and also go for a jog and I know he came on, but I can't remember anything from him at all. He was supposed to be our game changer from the bench today but nothing changed.

He wasn't the reason that we lost, but I'll never understand what all the fuss is about him when he can't influence games like these, which I thought was what world class players did.

No doubt he'll have a worldie against LASK and we'll get 10 new pages of adulation for him.

I always find it a weird correlation that those who don’t rate Pogba are always the managers biggest fans.

Not sure why that is but definitely something behind it. I mean the way you talk about Pogba is exactly how those who criticise Ole talk and your always the first to get you chest up about it. Yet you use the same tone talking about players.

 

[sp_107]

On his day he is still the best but I prefer more consistency from a central midfielder, Against top pressing teams he always struggle.

I wish we could keep the following as our core and build the blocks with top talent around them for a better future (Henderson/Maguire/Bruno/Martial/Rashford/Mason)

 

[Mainoldo]

On his day he is still the best but I prefer more consistency from a central midfielder, Against top pressing teams he always struggle.

I wish we could keep the following as our core and build the blocks with top talent around them for a better future (Henderson/Maguire/Bruno/Martial/Rashford/Mason)

Wad Matic consistent? Was Bruno or Fred consistent yesterday?

on that building block who is our key midfielder then?

 

[CG1010]

I think we're just going round in circles here. That said, I've said the greatest disappointment for me is him not stepping up to lead the team in a time of minor crisis, instead he's sunk with the level of our worst players. The same thing happened at the tail end of last season. In the past few games Martial, Rashford and Bruno to a lesser extent have stepped up and saved their team mates. I expect Pogba to be doing the same given his reputation. This is the standard you are right to expect from 'world class' players.

He did that vs Tottenham though. I see it as a form issue, uptil 2-3 games ago he was going past opposition players for fun, and now things aren't falling his way. The next 2 games will be pivotal for us but also for him whether he can recover his confidence/swagger. Otherwise it might be a repeat of last season where we were flying high with Ole but as Pogba's form wavered (along with Herrera out of the picture), we collapsed. He remains very important to our system even though partly Bruno has taken the load off him.

 

[romufc]

As I replied there is no setup where Pogba helps with midfield control, he doesn't do it in anyway with any setup. He needs other players to do it for him.

What? Just because he didnt come of the bench and change the game from 2-0 down to make us win he struggles with control?

By others, you mean Fred Mctominay Matic?

So the games we had control should be ones Pogba didnt start?

Did we have control in the first half v Spurs ? No
Did we have control v Norwhich? No
Did we control 1st hald yesterday? No.

So why is it that without Pogba we have no control?

 

[sewey89]

I think he gets a lot of unfair criticism.

Despite whatever form he's in he ALWAYS shows for the ball and doesn't shy away. He ALWAYS tries to make things happen.

Yes, he might make mistakes now and then and he's been a bit sloppy in possession a few times in the past few games. But thats in part due to the fact he's always showing for the ball.

Him and Bruno are similar in that regard.

 

[sammsky1]

I always find it a weird correlation that those who don’t rate Pogba are always the managers biggest fans.

Not sure why that is but definitely something behind it. I mean the way you talk about Pogba is exactly how those who criticise Ole talk and your always the first to get you chest up about it. Yet you use the same tone talking about players.

Surely I have a secret agenda and it’s all a conspiracy!!!!

Nope. I think I’m very objective in my analysis of both. I simply respond to the stimulus they send my way.

Ole wants to be at the club, tries his very best all of the time, and I can see his positive contributions. Guess what: I wholeheartedly support him.

Pogba cost a ridiculous fortune, we were told he would be the difference and help lead us to glory. Instead he’s been consistently inconsistent, cost us points because of his mistakes, tried to force a move away, makes disrespectful statements himself and via agent about the club, and has even downed tools. Guess what: I’m not so keen.

Here is the thing: no Manchester United pogba critic fan is happy about their opinion on him: we desperately want him to be successful and committed, as that helps the team win, which makes us feel great. That is my only agenda.

It’s pogba’s blind fans that are the issue: He can’t be criticised and must be viewed as the best player at the club no matter what. That there is the agenda.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Surely I have a secret agenda and it’s all a conspiracy!!!!

Nope. I think I’m very objective in my analysis of both. I simply respond to the stimulus they send my way.

Ole wants to be at the club, tries his very best all of the time, and I can see his positive contributions. Guess what: I wholeheartedly support him.

Pogba cost a ridiculous fortune, we were told he would be the difference and help lead us to glory. Instead he’s been consistently inconsistent, cost us points because of his mistakes, tried to force a move away, makes disrespectful statements himself and via agent about the club, and has even downed tools. Guess what: I’m not so keen.

Here is the thing: no Manchester United pogba critic fan is happy about their opinion on him: we desperately want him to be successful and committed, as that helps the team win, which makes us feel great. That is my only agenda.

It’s pogba’s blind fans that are the issue: He can’t be criticised and must be viewed as the best player at the club no matter what. That there is the agenda.

You do know that Ole is very well paid, right? He's not a fan managing, he's doing a job we pay him handsomely for.

They're both employees of the club.

 

[sammsky1]

You do know that Ole is very well paid, right? He's not a fan managing, he's doing a job we pay him handsomely for.

I wish pogba would always do his job too.

 

[He'sRaldo]

I wish pogba would always do his job too.

So when we lose or draw is Ole not doing his job?