His fee didn't help either, it created a ridiculious expectation, it made him a different player in their minds.
6
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 22
- Goals
- 1
- Assists
- 4
- Yellow cards
- 2
- Status
There ain't a scenario in which Pogba will have more goals/assists than Bruno with the current setup. It's not gonna happen
Assists, maybe just about possible, but goals - no chance. Pogba just isn’t a natural goalscorer like Bruno for me. Bruno is far more purposeful and deliberate when he tries to score. Passing though, Pogba is a different level, and it isn’t unrealistic that he can match assist numbers even playing further back, as he can put a chance on a plate from 40/50 yards anyway.
Or the lack of understanding about Football. The only way that expectation becomes realistic is if the team for some unknown reason bypasses Bruno.
Honestly not going to bother. Not sure why people have this innate need to dislike our own players or want them to fail. Makes very little sense.
This is Pogba's heat map in the Villa game
This is Bruno
This is Matic
Pogba's positioning looks more similar to Matic than it does to Fernandes, who truly has a license to roam. Its not just where he gets into in attack but where he receives the ball in the build up and it looks like he's receiving the ball from the defense more often than he is receiving it from Matic.
poor attempt at a WUM.Now, someone show us from last night - how many minutes do @MuranoLover watch.
He wasn't watching the same game at all.
I think Keane is right. He's much happier and free now the focus is off him on the pitch. Hopefully he signs on.
Yup, his biggest critics always judged his performances through the goals/assists lense.
Even when he does one or both it's still 'well he shouldn't have turned the ball over, not impressed'
Anything short of a 9/10 is deemed average or not good enough
Quoted for future reference.
If Pogba stays fit and plays most of our games next season, I'm sure I'll be revisiting this and quoting Pogba's G+A vs Bruno's just to underline my point. In the wake of Bruno's brilliant form, quite a few of you have forgotten how devastating Pogba has been and can be and that Bruno himself cannot keep up these ridiculous numbers. Till then, I'm content with labelled as someone with 'no understanding of football', as someone with presumably a far greater understanding has put it.
I meant G+A, as I feel Pogba's lead in assists will be enough to cover his deficit in goals.
While we can now also break teams down now with good-link up play or improvised set pieces, our primary strength on the front foot is still direct and based on distributing the ball quickly to forwards with space ahead of them. Rashford, Martial, Greenwood (and hopefully Sancho) are all devastating on counters, or even in quick transitions where the opposition don't have enough numbers to close them down. In all these scenarios, Pogba is either the assister or the 'assister to the assister' given his insane vision and ability to pick a through ball. Even when space is restricted with a low block as we have seen of late, Pogba is usually at the edge of the box, ready to put in lofted through balls (to Martial the other day) or lay-offs (to Bruno twice in one game - where he hit the bar and later when he scored) or to support attacking runs (one-twos with Martial and Rashford). If you are one of those people who think that this system doesn't let Pogba rack up numbers himself, you're missing something. Matic playing deep with Shaw/AWB almost acting as wide midfielders when Pogba and Bruno are both forward means that he has a lot more freedom than a usual deep lying playmaker.
On initial viewing, Bruno's numbers (5G/3A in the PL) are far superior to Pogba's (1G/1A) since the break.
But Bruno has 2 penalties - Pogba isn't on penalty duty right now. It could have been 3 goals each if Pogba had converted them instead.
Bruno has 12 key passes for his assists, Pogba has 11 - they've just not been converted as clincially (think of Rashford one on one from a long ball).
Pogba has completeled 11/12 dribbles in the opposition half, Bruno with 5/7.
Pogba has been more conservative with his shooting (5 shots vs Bruno's 16) than usual.
And all this while Bruno looks unplayable and Pogba is still finding his feet post injury. On top of that, Pogba's role here is such that G+A metrics aren't the best way to judge his performances as opposed to Bruno who's often as further forward as Martial himself. For instance, Pogba's possession recovered is way better than Bruno, as are tackles, dribbled past %, overall number of passes and clearances.
Rashford (and hopefully, again, Sancho) will be competing with Bruno for corner/freekick/penalty duties next season and his numbers will definitely drop a bit (if he can keep up 1.3 G+A/game over next season, forget everything I've said - Bruno is better than Zidane and Lampard in that case), and Pogba's numbers will consistently rise.
All that aside, Pogba was playing in similar positions for quite a large period when he racked up these numbers:
Pogba just needs his head to be in the right place, and a few more games to hit full stride. The shots attempted, the passes completed, and assists will rise automatically, it's just a matter of time.
surely that poster is just a WUM bud. Can't be that clueless.We haven't and the tweet that you posted is actually the problem. In a functioning team with other creative players and in particularly creative players that are higher than Pogba like Bruno is, Pogba isn't supposed to even match their stats. It's not about how devastating Pogba is, it's about the role that he plays in the team. Just to show you how I don't underestimate Pogba, for us he is comparable to Iniesta, he will most likely be the player that creates the opening for an assist but not the player that provides the assist himself. He is crucial and in my opinion our best player but it doesn't mean that you have to see it through raw stats.
If Pogba has better raw stats than Bruno, then the latter isn't doing his job which was the issue with Lingard.
Quote away. At the end of the day, it's for our benefits. When Pogba was at his most productive, he was playing as a 10 like Bruno therefore if the setup is the same, I'm ready to wire you 10000 euros if Pogba ends up having more G+A than Bruno from playing as a pure CM now.
Quote this too
I had a look at some of his other posts on Pogba over the last year or two. He's dead serious. The maniac!
This is ridiculous. The goals and assists aren't a zero-sum equation. Having better players around a star player doesn't diminish their individual contributions, it enhances them. Messi is head and shoulders above everyone else in the Argentine National team (70G, 48A - a sorry attempt for numbers to capture what he does, but a reasonalbe metric), but he's even better for Barca when he has a functional and better team around him. Suarez had 31 goals and 12 assists in that Liverpool team where he was the main man, and one year later he had 40 goals and 16 assists for Barca - where he wasn't the main man, where Messi and later Neymar took freekicks and penalties, and where he had to take wider roles on the pitch when both of them drifted in.
Pogba's numbers will not go down because of Bruno, Martial, Rashford and Greenwood - they'll go up.
Quote away. At the end of the day, it's for our benefits. When Pogba was at his most productive, he was playing as a 10 like Bruno therefore if the setup is the same, I'm ready to wire you 10000 euros if Pogba ends up having more G+A than Bruno from playing as a pure CM now.
Quote this too
it's ok if you have personal/irrational dislike for someone, but to have that cloud any sense of judgement is a bit much. And still showcasing it for all to see.Maybe this is a long term WUM
@Gandalf Greyhame
I like your enthusiasm, but Pogba playing as the deep lying playmaker will struggle to match an attacking midfielder in terms of goal output.
Pogba will often be the "pre assister" which is just as important, but Bruno will get the final pass etc.
If Pogba does manage to beat him then he would have had 1 hell of a season, but it's not to say Pogba won't be just as important.
I like your enthusiasm, but Pogba playing as the deep lying playmaker will struggle to match an attacking midfielder in terms of goal output.
Pogba will often be the "pre assister" which is just as important, but Bruno will get the final pass etc.
If Pogba does manage to beat him then he would have had 1 hell of a season, but it's not to say Pogba won't be just as important.
But that's wrong, why do you talk about stars when I'm talking about football and roles? Players share the ball, they share roles and numbers don't automatically go up, that's why players don't have drastically better stats when they join a better club. And you are using Messi who is an attacker and the same type of attacker with Argentina and Barcelona, his role doesn't change.
The stats that you posted aren't that impressive when you compare them individually to other players in the league, 9 assists or 13 goals aren't special for top level attacking midfielders and the reason he was at the top of this charts in our team is because our attacking midfielders and designated goalscorers were terrible while he was able to do more than he should which had consequences on our ability to dominate in midfield. Nowadays, Pogba can play the role that he is supposed to play which is as a support for our attacking midfielders and strikers with Bruno Fernandes being the main beneficiary.
I'm not doubting Pogba's abilities, I'm not saying that in a different setup he wouldn't have better stats than Bruno, I'm just saying that in our setup, the one that sees us be arguably the best team in the league Pogba isn't supposed to provide more goals and assists than Bruno Fernandes, I won't be surprised when Bruno registers at least 15 goals and 15 assists next season and Pogba will play a major role in that.
I did some more digging. Compare Pogba and Bruno's stats there this season here: https://understat.com/player/1740
Bruno was expected to assist 0.24 goals/90min, actually assisted 0.63 goals/90min -> overachieving by 179%.
Pogba had xA90 of 0.30, and A90 of 0.31 -> performing on par.
Bruno was expected to score 0.5 goals/90min, actually scored at 0.74 goals/90min -> overachieving by 48%.
Pogba had xG90 of 022 goals/90, but actually scored at 0.1 goals/90min -> underachieving by 54%.
Bruno is being helped by some good finishing from his passes, and is also scoring way more than expected. Pogba will get there, soon - confidence and form have an effect on xG/xA stats as is evident from our streak right now.
Bruno was expected to assist 0.24 goals/90min, actually assisted 0.63 goals/90min -> overachieving by 179%.
Pogba had xA90 of 0.30, and A90 of 0.31 -> performing on par.
Bruno was expected to score 0.5 goals/90min, actually scored at 0.74 goals/90min -> overachieving by 48%.
Pogba had xG90 of 022 goals/90, but actually scored at 0.1 goals/90min -> underachieving by 54%.
Bruno is being helped by some good finishing from his passes, and is also scoring way more than expected. Pogba will get there, soon - confidence and form have an effect on xG/xA stats as is evident from our streak right now.
But that's misleading because if both players xG and xA matched their actual outputs, Bruno would have the better stats. It's totally situational which is what understat is about, you just provided us the reason why you shouldn't expect to see Pogba have better stats than Bruno, the only way it would happen is if Bruno underachieve or if Pogba overachieve or if their roles change, for example if Bruno isn't on penalty, corner and free kicks duties. Bruno is supposed to assist and score 0.74 times per 90 while Pogba is supposed to score and assist 0.52 times per 90, clearly situationally one player has an advantage on the other.
I'm not disagreeing with your premise, I'm disagreeing with how you fit Pogba into it. I am saying that Pogba did not move from a AM to DM after Bruno, the positions he occupies on the pitch are just slightly different from last year, but with more freedom and better players around him. He's played in a midfield 3 or as the part of the double pivot last year as well - with Lingard/Pereira starting game after game in a more advanced position. Look back on earlier posts, you'll remember the exasperation we all had when even Ole put Pogba in a double pivot and insisted on starting Lingard.
Here's a heat map of Bruno vs Bournemouth, for instance:
Here's 2 heat maps of Pogba, one of which is against Chelsea in our 4-0 win in the season opener (so no Bruno) and the second is from Bournemouth. Spot the difference.
Pogba is largely playing in the same area of the pitch, and if need be he can still go up as he used to earlier. But now - he has better players to link up with, more movement to spot and assist, and better finishers to convert his passes into goals.
Last edited:
I didnt think Pogba was all that good last night, he almost cost us a goal that time where he lost the ball in midfield, resulting in a good chance for Villa and not sure what he was thinking when he wandered into the off side position for Rashford's goal, though keeper would likely have saved anyway it if he wasnt there....I think.
Took his goal very well but I wouldn't read too much into passing stats etc as the second half was a timid training game for united.
I think he has been ok since returning,far from our best performer. Acknowledge however that he is returning from long lay off.
Took his goal very well but I wouldn't read too much into passing stats etc as the second half was a timid training game for united.
I think he has been ok since returning,far from our best performer. Acknowledge however that he is returning from long lay off.
Bruno on current brillaint form is expected to have 0.74, Pogba's just getting started and is already at 0.52.
I have already addressed how getting Sancho and Rashford coming back to form will relieve Bruno of a few of his duties, at least in certain situations.
Anyways, I've got get back to work now, I've done enough digging here. My bottom line is simple : while I agree that an AM is in a role where he's expected to have more G+A, I still feel Pogba from a double pivot will exceed Bruno's numbers through sheer difference in quality - even thought that's only one of the metrics you should judge him by. The 'luxury player' label is often bandied about - well, now that we have the luxury of Bruno, Martial, Rashford and Mason (and for the last time, hopefully Sancho), Paul Pogba will truly shine.
And last season Pogba had a worse xA90 which was at 0.15 and he was on penalty duty which represented 0.23 xG90 out his 0.47 xG90 in all situations. His current xG90 is similar to the one he had last season without penalty duties while his curent xA is superior to last season. In reality Pogba is currently doing better in xG+xA than last season and he is still not statistically expected to provide more goals and assists than Bruno according to understats which means that your expectations are way above where they should be.
The point of understat is to look at what is expected, it's relatively straightforward and understats tells you that Pogba is currently producing more than last season in open play and that Bruno Fernandes is expected to produce more than Pogba. So there is little sense to expect Pogba to produce more than Bruno Fernandes based on what he was doing last season.
Last edited:
Of course he'd have way worse xA90 and xG90 last season - his options were Lukaku, Lingard, Mata, Sanchez and a hit-and-miss Rashford - and his manager for the most part was someone who called him a virus. He cannot find passes if there's no movement and he cannot score goals if he's not helped by good play around him.
As for current stats, like I've said before - I feel like he's still warming up post injury into this new team, finding his groove. Let us have a larger data sample for both Bruno and Pogba when they're playing together, and if the numbers are still vastly apart, I will accept that my predictions are wrong.
Yea he definetly is still improving fitness wise and finding his feet.
It is possible if Ole does not continue to restrict him. Pogba with a free role is one of the most devastating players I have seen in the epl for sometime. From deep like he is playing now though the only way he scores more is if he start scoring bullet shots again. Outside of Balotelli and Ibra this guy has one of the hardest shots in world football but all of a sudden he has stopped shooting, it makes no sense. Once he corrects that then certainly he can rack up the numbers.
There are many scenarios where it could happen, if he starts shooting again and if as expected Rashfords takes penalties first again like he should with Fernandes getting the odd one.
Not sure what you mean there, maybe you should rewatch when Paul waltzed into the box at will and scored against City, Chelsea and Bournemouth. No other midfielder in my time watching United has done anything like it and only players of a certain level can score when they want and he does it. If Fernandes was more purposeful and deliberate he would not take 50 shots to score 1.
Not understanding football? Mate I remember posts from you where you claimed Paul was not influential at the world cup and that Hernandez, Giroud and Grizou were more so. Perhaps someone can ask the same in response to those posts..
Should not be his role though and I can't see it lasting for long.
No I said that France didn't have a single key player that it was a team performance where everyone played its role. I probably put Varane and Hernandez has the best performers during the WC which can be debated but France under Deschamps has never really had a single key player.
Last edited:
too many Guiness last night? Amazing how you discredit everything good he did, but highlight 2 errors across 90 minutes and call it a bad performance.
For your information that IS a good midfield performance. Statistically and to the eye it was spot on.
So he lost the ball once so that means he wasn't great? Honestly had enough of this crap.
You've just completely changed your argument because you realised how ridiculous of a claim it was. You said that he will consistently have more goals and assists, not that his combined goals and assists will be higher. For their clubs in the last 5 years, Bruno has 116 G+A, with Pogba having 82 G+A, if you want to go by that. Bruno is 2 years younger than Pogba, so his low numbers at the start of that period could be put down to growing as a young player, he is clearly trending to be a high scoring AM. Pogba is now playing behind Bruno, and has just scored his first goal in 16(?) months, and you are saying he will consistently outscore and out-assist Bruno? It's just never going to happen where he is playing.
In my observation, Pogba is far more natural in creating than he is scoring. Being a goalscorer to me os largely mental. Pogba does have the ability to score any type of goal. But it is a certain coldness that is required to be considered a natural goalscorer to me. There’s no point in giving me examples that he has scored a goal before. I know this. But I’ve seen him go 1v1 a few times, and every time, he has failed to even make a clean connection with the ball. There is too much pressure required perhaps. I think this is why he is also a questionable penalty taker. It is more a mentality thing. There are defenders in my time watching football who I think are more natural goalscorers even. Sergio Ramos to me is a more natural goalscorer than Pogba, albeit not as talented. But when he’s near the goal, he’s less ‘shy’ about it - he fecking means it, and isn’t shooting just for the attempt or because he’s in a shooting position. He means it. With Pogba, I get the impression that shooting is almost a last resort, something does because football common sense says he is in a clear shooting position. But he rarely even has shots blocked. He’s not a goal-thinking player by nature. Not to me anyway.
Pogba will look for a pass until the last second, I'm not even sure if cares about assists either. He seems to enjoy breaking a defense and put a teammate in an ideal situation whatever that situation is. That's why I like the comparison with Iniesta in terms of mentality. At least that's my opinion not a fact.
I think sometimes he takes unnecessary risks as a hint to the Manager that although he's got all the tools for the job he's just not suited to playing deep, so please play me further forward.
Current setup means Bruno taking the pens of course. Bruno also attempts more shots and plays closer to the box. I'll say it again, in this system, there is no Pogba will be more productive than Bruno. Rashford took a pen for confidence reasons but it's obvious Bruno is the main taker
I said he had a good game, several times, hardly hatred now is it?
- Status