Hoping Paul feel he has a point to prove against Mourinho. Can see him chomping at the bit to be out there against Spurs and expect a stellar performance to compliment Bruno and our front 3. No pressure.
6
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 22
- Goals
- 1
- Assists
- 4
- Yellow cards
- 2
- Status
This exactly. A worldclass player should not be inconsistent
It is the consistency and expectation. We have seen Pogba produce moment of true Brilliance in a United shirt, so it frustrates fans because we all know what he is capable of.
One example - Pogba scored some outrageous goals from outside the box at his time at Juve, how many has he nestled into the top corner for us? Not many, ones I remember are Swansea in his debut season and in the EL away last.
For me I think Pogba's inconsistencies have had more to do with lack of football maturity than anything else. He hasn't dedicated himself to a role or the roles his manager's have required of him due to this, as he himself doesn't know what he is. He has the skillset to play as a deep lying playmaker and has proven it in lots of games where he is our key conductor from deep. When Pogba plays there we struggle far less with our build up as his movement to provide passing options for our defenders are far superior to anyone else at the club. His long range passes are usually accurate and his short passing is great when he is dedicated as he allows composure into his game. He can even be adequate defensively when choosing to be disciplined, and in the Premier League, for a midfielder in a two, that is the only way to play. Bruno will answer a lot of questions concerning Pogba in these last few games. We will see whether Pogba loses his midfield discipline because of the lack of creative options higher up the pitch or whether he does it as a result of a lack of discipline from himself.
Not if they throw them into an inconsistent, dysfunctional team. While people love saying in hyperbolic terms that a top player should perform no matter what circumstances, reality isn't quite that simple. Messi has failed to perform several times for his National team due to inconsistent players around him which means, no matter how good a player is, his form and consistency also depend on those surrounding him. Football is a team sport, not an individual one.
True. Come to think of it who has been our most consistent player post Fergie. De Gea and our signings this season should not be counted
and they’re doing that fairly ? Ok
Probably Valencia. Always giving in a shift. Same with Young to a degree.
Consistently good i mean
Exactly this....I’ve asked numerous times for people criticising Pogba to name me players who have been better over the duration of his time back, no one has come up with a rational answer. Everybody has been inconsistent, we have been inconsistent and Pogba, bizarrely as our best player has taken the brunt of the criticism
Consistently good i mean
Valencia has been good up to last year. Then he lost it.
Young has played less, but often produced for LVG and Mourinho.
Seriously ? Pogba has outperformed both of them tenfold during his time back. In fact this comment just proves the disconnect between the criticism he has received and the reality
He has not though. They play different roles for the team. Pogba was great during our new manager bounce, but has been up and down under Mourinho.
The media feed people things, they swallow them and run with it.
If the media says that Pogba is white, the mass and hive mind will believe it. It's easy to prey on masses credulity, once a narrative is set in(usually by the media), it sticks with the masses and regardless of the narrative validity or credibility, it simply becomes fact in the eyes of the majority.
This post is quite ridiculous. So are you seriously trying to say with a straight face that Pogba hasn't outperformed those 2 in his time here at United?
Giving a shift... such a weird method to judge how good a player has been. Player A works hard so he has been good while Pogba who is scoring goals and assisting isnt good because he isnt working hard enough?
During Mourinhos time yes. There is a reason that Pogba got dropped and was in and out the team during his second year. It was partly on Mourinho for not finding his best role.
Although it is clear that Pogba didn't find his best form for a large period.
Could be the fallout that effected Pogba mentally too.
Under Ole Pogba started brilliantly, but dropped down in form after the PSG red card.
He is a brilliant player on his day, but often goes missing and not performing too.
It is hard to know which Pogba will show up now.
You say this, but I don’t think fans know what they actually think Pogba is, or at least - what they want him to be. For instance, you say Kroos is (rightly) not judged for goals and assists, as he’s more a DLP, which is correct. But despite being willing to acknowledge this difference between both players, Pogba is largely criticised for the things that are expected from Kroos. I’ll elaborate more below...
Just to continue - I think fans need to ask themselves what it is that they want from Pogba, and what they think he’s in the team to do. You mentioned screamers and moments of brilliance, for example, which is not unreasonable. I saw someone else the other day, mention his performance against City (the infamous one) and say that this is expected more frequently. Again, not unreasonable. But then I see regular reference on here to his performances for France in the World Cup, that were more conservative in style, and say that this version of Pogba is the Pogba they expect to see regularly. I’m not sure if it is the same posters asking for these two contrasting things, regularly, but they are both common requests.
Now back to Toni Kroos. Pogba’s World Cup performances were closer to a typical Kroos-style game. His City performance and the Juve highlights and other ‘moments of brilliance’ are more De Bruyne/Gerrard/Toure etc. Yet of all of these other players - Pogba is the only one seemingly expected to be Kroos AND De Bruyne simultaneously. With a little bit of Gattusso thrown in, because there isn’t enough of that either. The repetitive things I read are both that he’s too risky in possession, doesn’t play it simple enough, doesn’t win enough games (take them by the ‘scruff of the neck’) and doesn’t press and tackle enough. There seems to be no acknowledgement that these are all different footballer profiles they are describing. Kroos isn’t demanded to add more Gerrard/De Bruyne to his game. De Bruyne isn’t asked to be more Kroos etc.
For me, while Pogba can get goals, I don’t think he’s a great goalscorer really. I think goalscoring is mainly a mental thing, and I just don’t think he has it. He has some Eden Hazard character traits I think. They are artists on the pitch, and tbh, not always the most mathematical in their game. CR7, for example, sacrificed a lot of the artistry in his game for pure functionality. I wouldn’t be confident in Pogba for the more easy chances. I’d back Scott McTominay or Bruno over him for an easy chance. I’d back him to score a more spectacular, lower probability goal though, that they may simply not have the ability to do. It’s perhaps a little playful, but it’s how I see his game.
To me, he’s most comfortable creating. I think he’s got the best range of passing in the PL, and beyond, probably - and one thing he has always done consistently is create chances for others. Due to his non-goalscoring mentality, I think he’s more inclined to look for the pass than a shot. This may be due to confidence - he’s quite heavily criticised here (in the UK), and that may plant some hesitation in shooting. But for all his ‘inconsistency’ - I don’t think it is acknowledged enough that he creates chances. Consistently!
Ultimately, I think people want him to be both conservative and explosive somehow - both ‘control the tempo of the game’ and decide it. And tackle. I’m not sure that’s realistic. In a good team with good movement and others defending, he’ll create a shit load of chances, score a decent amount, and be great on transitions with his ability to carry the ball as well as pass it. But that’s it really. But he’ll do those things better than almost any other midfielder around. For most other midfield duties beyond that, you will need to look at other midfielders. If a team plays with three of them, I don’t think that’s unreasonable. If the DM took the ball off others as well as Pogba passes it to his forwards, the team would be on its way to a great midfield. Add one more in there to plug the gaps and you’re set.
If someone is boasting about Pogbas goals, and someone puts it into context by looking at goals from open play, why is it unfair?
As I said already, goal scoring and creation isn't his problem anyway, the gripe people have is on consistency.
Who didn't
Great post as always but don’t think you’re part about Gerrard and Toure are true, they got the same criticisms as Pogba, apart from the goals and assists they added, they were expected to tackle expected to playmake, and etc, I think incidentally both showed to be better at it than Paul though, Gerrrard in his early days and Toure. Toure in particularly goes under the radar, to go back in time to see how special he was, because in a couple seasons he was literally an amalgamation of Pogba and Kroos, arguably the best deep lying playmaker in the league, shown by his sheer volume of passes but also the man on the end of moves, assists goals free kicks penalties you name it.
Going forward though Pogbas game does need to be defined and I think that’s down to the manager, build a system around him give him clear roles and a structure and I’m sure he will shine.
Most did drop in form of course. De Gea the most and turned into the worst keeper in europe. Then Pogba second pretty much.
Then I would add Rashford and Martial after the injuries they had. Lukaku too, but he had like 3 good games with 6 goals only before he dropped in form.
Matic and Young ran out of gas. Herrera might have had his head away and run out of gas.
Fred and Mctominay did fairly well though when they played.
Smalling and Lindelöf did alright too I think.
Shaw was arguably our best player in the dark.
Lingard and Sanchez not too much to drop from I would say.
Thank you kindly. I agree on Toure, I’m a huge fan and think he’s under appreciated. I’ve said before that I think he’s the best midfielder to ever play in the PL.
Both Toure and Gerrard may well have been better at the defensive side than Pogba, I’m not really sure, I haven’t done any statistical checks per se - but I do think we’ve gone to a bit of an extreme about the defensive side of Pogba’s game though. I mean, it’s not his strongest suit, clearly, but I do think it is serviceable for a midfielder who is the chief creator in a team. Again, I’m not a massive stats man, but my understanding/recollection is that on the whole, his defensive statistics are always respectable - but similarly to what @Santoryo said earlier, I just think narratives build and people just follow them. Tbh, when people really analyse, it is actually quite remarkable how little people actually think for themselves today and form opinions. Some people seem to not know what they think until they look on Twitter first! I don’t agree though that Toure and Gerrard were generally criticised nearly as much as Pogba for all the things they don
You’re right though about us needing to have a more defined role for Pogba though. I’m not sure, in a midfield with Bruno, it can simply be ‘chief creator’ though - and as has been massively discussed, the dynamic between them will be interesting to watch, and will either go horribly wrong or be historically brilliant.
Because Bruno has three goals....Lampard, Gerrard and Steve Bruce just used to have a column for goals....if you don’t understand this then I don’t know what to say.
Would you not say that the creation has been consistent though? I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that Pogba has consistently created chances from midfield since he’s come back. And as the chief creator (in a not particularly creative team), I think that’s worth something. Or worth more than the little credit it is given anyway.
I’d actually probably disagree with you though in that I think he could score more goals. I mean, he should. I just don’t think that he has the mentality of a goalscorer. I think that comes from the mind more than anything else. I mean, he has significantly more ability than Tim Cahill, for example, but Cahill is inferior in every other department except in front of goal. He just finishes like he means it. I don’t get that with Pogba. He’s gone 1 vs 1 for example about 4 times I can recall, and each time his finish is nervous, snatched and rushed. On one of those occasions, he actually scored (I think it was against Palace in the final game of a season where Harrop and Gomes etc made their debuts), but even then, the shot wasn’t clean. I think he’s more comfortable shooting from 25 yards than he is from 12. I don’t think he thrives on the responsibility of goalscoring, although he has fantastic ability, so is more comfortable where you can hide behind the lesser judgement of lower probability but higher beauty goals, than higher probability chances. You look at his game and think he should be one of the best goalscoring midfielders, but I’m not sure he has that in him. It’s the passing that is special, and his dribbling and carrying the ball.
The journalist Mark Ogden said with a straight face yesterday that Bruno is good defensively for an attacking midfielder...but you’ll get zero from Pogba defensively. If that isn’t pure narrative then I don’t know what is.
So every player had a dip in form....but everyone else had a reason in your mind apart from Pogba ?
Performance wise I think Pogbas been fine during Oles time here. Consistent and quality when he plays. The problem has been the fitness this season, but hopefully that's behind him and he comes in and shows the world class player that he is. I don't see any reason why he wouldn't. Individually he has performed when he has been fit, so its just maintaining that level but with a much better side around him.
Exactly. The fact that he keeps singling him out is all I need to know to figure that he's approaching this argument with a ridiculous level of bias against Pogba.
With Pogba it was mental I think. Could not cope with his loss in form. I think his drop in form was fairly early and he could not bounce back from it and gain confidence. Tired legs could be part of it too since he needed to maybe be dropped/rested to find form again.
Each time I see Messi play for Argentina, he did well. Did everything right. Held back by his team and whatever system if any they're playing, and yet Messi played well for me despite the popular narrative he "didn't perform". He's the only player that is playing proper football consistently there.
So not sure if this post is to make an excuse for Pogba's inconsistency or not. Don't get me wrong, "it" (= dysfunctional team and inconsistent teammates) does has influences yes..
But you know, even when the team is in a consistent good run of form, Pogba can suddenly performed poorly or made costly mistakes quickly ruining his form (seasons 16/18). His form seemingly gets worse when he possibly gets distracted eg. late 18/19 when Zidane returned, but "fatigue" excuse card is used then. I also don't think his form early this season (after he said wanting "new challenges") is good, but rather just fine.. which I don't think is good enough because of his capability and the team needs him to perform more, shouldering the responsibility, but yeah, the injury soon after(which is true) conveniently hid that.
That's harsh and rubbish lazy criticism.
Pogba does defend, and his defensive work is improving, certainly much better now than before. Consistency in defending is the only issue, which Pogba can easily prove he has it starting the game soon to be played.
Yes but you could argue Pogba has played in that DLP for the majority of his time here, very rarely pushed up further than that sort of role, yet his numbers exceed Kroos.
No comparison is going to be perfect but it’s a decent one.
No doubt in my mind that Pogba would look an absolute world beater at Madrid. I’m hoping he will look every inch that player for us now we have improved the staring 11.
Definitely De Gea for around 4-5 seasons ?
Then I would say...
2. Valencia before 2018,
3. Herrera,
4. Mata before circa 18,
5. Young the longest until this season but there were sporadic poor games in between.
6. Romero but he suffered the short blip after his serious injury.
That's just it.
Depressing thinking about it.
It doesn’t surprise me. I suspect Ogden actually himself believed it when he wrote it.
Of course, if looked at objectively, it isn’t true. Even offensively. I haven’t said it much since January because I appreciate that it isn’t the time to make such a point, with Bruno basking in all his newness etc and I didn’t think anyone would be ready to hear it - but even offensively there hasn’t been any difference between Bruno and Pogba I don’t think. The same criticisms - loose in possession, the same output on the whole - few goals scored, mainly from the spot, few chances and goals created. It had just come to the point where it looks better coming from someone new. Of course, there is also the intangible lift he’s given the rest of the group bu coming in as a nee player and being a breath of fresh air.
The thing is, sometimes things have maybe just gone to far, and minds will never be changed on an opinion held for so long, so perhaps a change is best. But I have long felt, and said, that if Pogba’s replacement came in and produced the exact same performances over a 3 year spell - he would be considered a successful signing. I can’t imagine a Maddison or Grealish, for example, replicating Pogba’s form here and being considered a disappointment. It’s about the prism that it’s viewed by. If you want to see good in Pogba, you will, as there is plenty there. Things that, if they were Grealish for example, would be a bigger talking point - highlight after highlight of the brilliant passing, dribbling etc. You think he doesn’t lose possession too? It’s just not the story we want.
Are some people now getting offended just to get on the offended-bus? Since when does Pogba contribute defensively? I mean, I think he's the most talented player we have (by far) but I can't say he's offered much more than nothing defensively. It's not like Bruno comes with some defensive nous, but he's feisty and super competitive, so I guess he doesn't go missing as much.
There are loads of things people can twist their knickers over when it comes to public criticism of Pogba, but that he offers nothing defensively I thought was definitely not one of them. If it was, we'd have used him in a double pivot throughout.
There are loads of things people can twist their knickers over when it comes to public criticism of Pogba, but that he offers nothing defensively I thought was definitely not one of them. If it was, we'd have used him in a double pivot throughout.
He’s not ‘good’ defensively, but he’s not Mesut Ozil either, is the point.
I think the whole defensive issue stemmed from Mourinho loving his deep line and never employing a decent press. If you want midfielders like Pogba and Matic in a midfield 2, you need to make sure that the first block isn't easily bypassed and the 2 midfielders aren't constantly exposed. And these days the best way to do that is to employ a high press or a very solid high block. Mourinho did neither of these, causing the team to have constantly and repeatedly transition from high up the pitch to very deep. This made our counterattacks a lot harder, as well as causing a lot of stamina drain. In a lot of cases we'd simply prefer to be stuck in our own half defending.
All this to say that if we have a manager who can organize very well defensively, especially on the transition, I'm sure issues with Pogba's defensive ability will slowly dissipate. As we're seeing at Spurs, Mourinho's defensive mechanisms are simply outdated, and IMO it was never a problem with Pogba, who's shown elsewhere he's more than competent defensively. In fact, during Ole's period where we've employed a more decent press, the general concensus has been that he's been focused and hard working. Not a coincidence.
It really is. Especially when you consider the actual quality of most of those players that you've listed as consistent
Yeah, I'd grant him that.
This isn't actually quite true. Maybe it's because of him being new, so people don't tend to pick up on his less desirable moments but Bruno has gone missing entire halves since joining us despite putting in great performances. Which is why I've been baffled by certain people saying that Bruno is enough to sort our creativity and midfield issues. We absolutely need another creative midfielder to play alongside him otherwise we'd still struggle to create enough(actually evident against Everton, Wolves).
At the end of the day it's simply impossible and ridiculous to lay all the creative burden on one player, it's easy for opposing teams to shut him down if he's the sole provider. Same happened to Pogba, despite him being a creator he could still be shut down and we'd still struggle to create enough because relying on a sole creator from midfield is ridiculous.
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