Agree 100%.
6
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 37
- Goals
- 6
- Assists
- 16
- Yellow cards
- 5
- Red cards
- 1
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Not sure what you mean buddy?
Our whole team did TBH, don't know what happened but it looked like a game of FIFA on ultimate team when you know you're going to lose. We were running in sand they were floating on clouds.
I actually have a feeling that he will be dropped. Not saying he should be, but I think it is a strong possibility.
Pogba is an attacking mid and cant play any other midfield role really without big problems.
De Bruyne doesn’t play better defense than Pogba and he definitely doesn’t play deeper. City are a high press team so of course De Bruyne would have more tackles.
The team should be built around him, it's pretty simple for me. There's just no balance to the team at times. Basically feels like we're trying to get as many forwards/wingers on the pitch and the same time, the addition of Sanchez doesnt help with that either.
Like many of us, I thought that Fergie had made a huge mistake not playing Pogba as a kid first time around.
His talent then was phenomenal and losing him to Juve/signing him again for £90M just made me think that Fergie had made one of his very few mistakes (I know agents etc etc.)
However, it dawned on me in that Spurs game, that this is a player who even though he is an amazing player has his shortfalls. He relies heavily on those around him. In France for example, he needs Kante and Rabiot/Bakayoko around him. For Juve it was Pirlo & Vidal. Back in 2011/12 we were not playing 3 in the middle, and we weren't going to build a team around a young kid.
So in 2018 what do we do... well for the rest of this season, Matic (hope he stays fit and well) and Herrera need to be next to him. Give him that free reign that we saw against Everton/Stoke and I believe he'd do it against big teams too. One of Mata/Lingard/Rashford will get less game time now Sanchez is here - but that isn't a bad thing.
In summer, we need to go all out and get two midfielders, a Carrick replacement and a Herrera upgrade. THen I believe the team is complete. Yes, tweaks here and there but we'd have an amazing first XI.
His talent then was phenomenal and losing him to Juve/signing him again for £90M just made me think that Fergie had made one of his very few mistakes (I know agents etc etc.)
However, it dawned on me in that Spurs game, that this is a player who even though he is an amazing player has his shortfalls. He relies heavily on those around him. In France for example, he needs Kante and Rabiot/Bakayoko around him. For Juve it was Pirlo & Vidal. Back in 2011/12 we were not playing 3 in the middle, and we weren't going to build a team around a young kid.
So in 2018 what do we do... well for the rest of this season, Matic (hope he stays fit and well) and Herrera need to be next to him. Give him that free reign that we saw against Everton/Stoke and I believe he'd do it against big teams too. One of Mata/Lingard/Rashford will get less game time now Sanchez is here - but that isn't a bad thing.
In summer, we need to go all out and get two midfielders, a Carrick replacement and a Herrera upgrade. THen I believe the team is complete. Yes, tweaks here and there but we'd have an amazing first XI.
The fundamental issue for me is that Mourinho has decided to deploy a counter-attacking system against all top teams. Most people would complain about that approach simply because it's unattractive to watch but it's also ill-suited to the current personnel (Lukaku, for one, is technically unreliable, cannot hold up play, lacks the finesse, displays bad off the ball movement). Personally, I don't believe the counter attack setup works consistently in 2018.
Now in terms of Pogba, I do not believe his skill-set is best suited for a counter setup. It may look fluid, powerful and deadly when they capitalize on errors (i.e. Arsenal) but that's an anomaly versus the big teams. United need much more of the ball in these big games. Of course, everyone goes 'missing' because they simply cede the ball and refuse to deploy a real consistent press. Zidane and players of that ilk would look average in this team setup.
Now in terms of Pogba, I do not believe his skill-set is best suited for a counter setup. It may look fluid, powerful and deadly when they capitalize on errors (i.e. Arsenal) but that's an anomaly versus the big teams. United need much more of the ball in these big games. Of course, everyone goes 'missing' because they simply cede the ball and refuse to deploy a real consistent press. Zidane and players of that ilk would look average in this team setup.
Pogba shone against Stoke on a cold winter night, but can he do it against an in-form Sevilla with passionate fans in Andalusia?
Highly doubt it. Other players will have to step up.
Highly doubt it. Other players will have to step up.
De bruyne plays better defence than pogba by just being there. I cant believe someone is trying to argue that pogba is better at defence.
Agree that KDB appears better in the system they utilise. Our forwards and midfield are just so easy to bypass whereas KDB gets more than his share of tackles and interceptions as they are right on top of teams as soon as they lose the ball. Now obviously Pogba is a part of the issue as part of our midfield, but honestly, if you swapped the two players I would be more than confident that their numbers would switch too. Its the system we utilise, we never press as a team, to the point I dont even know if we are coached to or not, some do occasionally and some dont.
Last time he had such a poor performance in a big game(Liverpool at home last season), he went on a slump thereafter.
We simply cant afford that.
The next 6 months are some of the most important of his career, especially with the world cup on the horizon, which the French have a decent chance of winning.
We simply cant afford that.
The next 6 months are some of the most important of his career, especially with the world cup on the horizon, which the French have a decent chance of winning.
Good post
Each time we lose I see over the top reactions. Have you seen the state of the cafe, there's thread's like "we won't win the league with pogba". What do you want me to say there. Criticsm is fine but most are senseless over exaggerating comments to which you cannot argue.
And for your facts this is the first time I have come up with such statement considering how over the top things have gone. So stop making up nonsense accusations.
I think he is fine in a midfield 2. We just need to start passing the ball faster and more accurately. Even Sanchez, who is also very good with the ball at his feet was struggling to find some rhythm, because we kept losing the ball, or got closed down. To get the best out of Pogba, Martial and Sanchez, we need at least another midfielder, fullback and CB who can control the ball and is not scared of it.
I think pogba can work pretty fine in 2 man-midfield , provides our defenders know how to play from the back. Problem is neither Jones or smalling are that great with the ball, so whenever under pressure they lump it forward. In fact the problem is not just with those two, even young is terrible with the ball and neither is valencia that great building things from the back. Pogba was not the problem against spurs. I will say time and time , you concede silly goal in first 10 second, your team morale goes down ( which is a concern).
Also, Jose subbing him wasn't great considering he is the only midfielder who link's our attack so that sub made zero sense especially for fellaini.
Also, Jose subbing him wasn't great considering he is the only midfielder who link's our attack so that sub made zero sense especially for fellaini.
@POF whilst you are right to a degree.. the bottom line is when you have invested that much in an asset, and you know that no matter what, if you force the issue with him and play him in a two and it keeps yielding the same result in big games.. because he has an innate lack of proactiveness when it comes to defending, then it becomes clear that either you buy a new player to do the role expected or you tweak it to get the best out of the asset you do have.
It is easy to say Pogba has to suck it up, perhaps he is trying to but just doesn't have the skillset to do it. He's a £90m player, if he is unable to adapt.. we have to find a way of utilising what he is actually good at.
I said it when we first signed him, it was a strange purchase for a side which was looking to rebuild because we had no fixed formation in place and getting someone like him you have to commit to a certain way of playing, a certain formation and he seemed at odds with what a Mourinho player is in terms of personality.
Now that we have him, it would be awful if we keep hitting a brick wall and failing to exploit what natural talents he does possess. We need to hone in on what his specialist traits are and maximise this..
So he's not a top tier CM. Well lets then look at the number 10 role or as the sole attacking midfielder in a 4-2-3-1 ahead of a conservative double-pivot? well he can't do that either because he lacks the composure of a Ozil in terms of assists/killer passes and the consistency of execution. He lacks the finishing ability of a Sneijder and is very hit and miss with his shooting from range too. Most fundamentally, he lacks the nimbleness you'd associate with the top number 10s due to his height and physique and thus it would be very easy to crowd him out and pick him up. So playing him to close to goal is also an issue.
Which leaves him and the manager in abit of a quandary. He literally only comes alive in that area ahead of the centre circle but before the final third. That little space is where Pogba is a consistently world class entity. Anywhere else on the pitch and he can have moments of brilliance (both defensively and offensively) but left for too long in those areas and his deficiencies become apparent and he becomes a liability. The thing is for most footballers this is true. They have a position or area on the pitch where they feel very comfortable on the pitch and if they find themselves in other areas for too long they look like ducks out of water. Imagine Messi on the left wing, or permanently as a CM.. Neymar as a CF, or right-wing. Building a great football team is about placing 11 players in the right areas of the pitch, where they can combine to great effect both offensively and defensively and right now.. we are failing to pay attention to where Pogba feels comfortable or would be at his best.
So if he can't be a 10, or a CM.. and he doesn't score enough or grab enough assists to be our sole AM.. what is the point of him and is there any way of getting the best out of him.. well yes. Because he does have world class attributes like I listed above. For me the solution is that if you're serious about building a team around him, it has to either be a 4-4-2 diamond with him as a LCM.. with some defensive responsibility but mostly focusing on his B2B world class ball carrying ability with some goals/assists thrown in or you go for a three man midfield, with a certain type of forward ahead of him in the number 9 position.
It has to be a downwards facing pivot, you need a specialist CDM who has lungs and can also pick ball off CB's and spray it. More importantly the other midfielder needs to also be a B2B midfielder who can control the game but also chip in with goals/assists too.. so that the responsibility doesn't solely rest on Pogba who doesn't have it in him to be the sole AM in a side but in a combo can be part of a world class trio. We need a midfielder next to him who can score 8-10 goals a season as well, to take the heat off him but is more nimble and can keep possession better than Pogba. He needs a huge talent next to him as he himself can't do the heavy-lifting in that midfield.
Up front, you need a striker who can drop in deep and playmake as well as play the CF. A 9.5 is essential to make a 4-3-3 work, you can't have such a one-dimensional striker up top if you're going to get the best out of a Pogba. He needs a guy who can do the 10 role and the 9, so that Pogba can focus on that area of the pitch where he is world class. In a diamond, less emphasis on CF being a certain type because you got a 10 there but in a 4-3-3.. it is key that you get all the right types of players to get Pogba at his best. Otherwise hes going to constantly look like he doesn't fit and stick out like a sore thumb in this big games.
It is easy to say Pogba has to suck it up, perhaps he is trying to but just doesn't have the skillset to do it. He's a £90m player, if he is unable to adapt.. we have to find a way of utilising what he is actually good at.
I said it when we first signed him, it was a strange purchase for a side which was looking to rebuild because we had no fixed formation in place and getting someone like him you have to commit to a certain way of playing, a certain formation and he seemed at odds with what a Mourinho player is in terms of personality.
Now that we have him, it would be awful if we keep hitting a brick wall and failing to exploit what natural talents he does possess. We need to hone in on what his specialist traits are and maximise this..
- Incredible ball carrier (particularly down left or central areas on the counter)
- Great in tight spaces on the ball in the area from centre circle to just outside the final third/down the left flank too
- Great range of passing
- Eye for a killer pass from deeper areas
- Strong header of the ball
- Can chip in defensively
- Flair/unpredictable
- Brave on the ball
- Forward-thinking
- Lack of concentration
- Poor at ball retention
- Lack of constant movement
- Poor defensive work-rate
- Below par stamina for a CM
- Not very responsive
- Poor finisher
- Hit and miss with killer passes
- Temperamental
- Immature at times
- Inconsistent set-piece taker
- Poor defensive intelligence/positioning
- Average movement in attacking third too
- Not elusive enough to be a 10 - too big/rangy
So he's not a top tier CM. Well lets then look at the number 10 role or as the sole attacking midfielder in a 4-2-3-1 ahead of a conservative double-pivot? well he can't do that either because he lacks the composure of a Ozil in terms of assists/killer passes and the consistency of execution. He lacks the finishing ability of a Sneijder and is very hit and miss with his shooting from range too. Most fundamentally, he lacks the nimbleness you'd associate with the top number 10s due to his height and physique and thus it would be very easy to crowd him out and pick him up. So playing him to close to goal is also an issue.
Which leaves him and the manager in abit of a quandary. He literally only comes alive in that area ahead of the centre circle but before the final third. That little space is where Pogba is a consistently world class entity. Anywhere else on the pitch and he can have moments of brilliance (both defensively and offensively) but left for too long in those areas and his deficiencies become apparent and he becomes a liability. The thing is for most footballers this is true. They have a position or area on the pitch where they feel very comfortable on the pitch and if they find themselves in other areas for too long they look like ducks out of water. Imagine Messi on the left wing, or permanently as a CM.. Neymar as a CF, or right-wing. Building a great football team is about placing 11 players in the right areas of the pitch, where they can combine to great effect both offensively and defensively and right now.. we are failing to pay attention to where Pogba feels comfortable or would be at his best.
So if he can't be a 10, or a CM.. and he doesn't score enough or grab enough assists to be our sole AM.. what is the point of him and is there any way of getting the best out of him.. well yes. Because he does have world class attributes like I listed above. For me the solution is that if you're serious about building a team around him, it has to either be a 4-4-2 diamond with him as a LCM.. with some defensive responsibility but mostly focusing on his B2B world class ball carrying ability with some goals/assists thrown in or you go for a three man midfield, with a certain type of forward ahead of him in the number 9 position.
It has to be a downwards facing pivot, you need a specialist CDM who has lungs and can also pick ball off CB's and spray it. More importantly the other midfielder needs to also be a B2B midfielder who can control the game but also chip in with goals/assists too.. so that the responsibility doesn't solely rest on Pogba who doesn't have it in him to be the sole AM in a side but in a combo can be part of a world class trio. We need a midfielder next to him who can score 8-10 goals a season as well, to take the heat off him but is more nimble and can keep possession better than Pogba. He needs a huge talent next to him as he himself can't do the heavy-lifting in that midfield.
Up front, you need a striker who can drop in deep and playmake as well as play the CF. A 9.5 is essential to make a 4-3-3 work, you can't have such a one-dimensional striker up top if you're going to get the best out of a Pogba. He needs a guy who can do the 10 role and the 9, so that Pogba can focus on that area of the pitch where he is world class. In a diamond, less emphasis on CF being a certain type because you got a 10 there but in a 4-3-3.. it is key that you get all the right types of players to get Pogba at his best. Otherwise hes going to constantly look like he doesn't fit and stick out like a sore thumb in this big games.
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Not sure how we plan on playing him going forward. Unless Mourinho drops one of Lingard, Sanchez or Martial, Pogba is going to be playing in a midfield two. It’ll be fine against most, but there’s too much space against good teams.
It could work with three at the back as there’s a defender ready to step into midfield to cover the gaps, but I don’t really see Mourinho using that.
Effectively, playing Pogba, Sanchez, Lukaku and Martial together in a big game is risky. It means at least one, maybe two playing out of position (if we’re saying Pogba needs to be further forward).
It could work with three at the back as there’s a defender ready to step into midfield to cover the gaps, but I don’t really see Mourinho using that.
Effectively, playing Pogba, Sanchez, Lukaku and Martial together in a big game is risky. It means at least one, maybe two playing out of position (if we’re saying Pogba needs to be further forward).
We wouldn't have got back into it with Pogba on the pitch anyway. He was woeful.
I think it could be a good thing in the long term because it gives Pogba a kick up the arse. Just because you're Pogba and you're not playing in your absolute favourite position doesn't mean you can put in that little effort.
Hopefully it embarrassed him enough to sort himself out.
I agree but that sub made zero sense considering matic was equally woeful if not more . If he wanted to change , I would have taken lingard and lukaku and put rashford and Herrera. Play the ball in the ground and bring Sanchez and pogba more into the game. Bringing fellaini on for pogba was a stupid substitution. This was not the game to kick pogba in his arse, not good.
One of his worst games, but still managed to create atleast 2 clearcut chances for Lingard. Could have done better for his chance from the corner. This is one of the games where we would benefit from a out and out winger. Spurs are crowded centrally, so a touchline hugging winger could do a lot of damage.
He was pathetic, yes.
His worst game in a United shirt, yes.
Deserved to be subbed off, yes.
But as soon as that was done around the 70th mark, we had 0 outlets from defence, and Spurs enjoyed possession like they were playing against an under-16 side.
Not saying he should've stayed on the pitch, but, he is our best player.
His worst game in a United shirt, yes.
Deserved to be subbed off, yes.
But as soon as that was done around the 70th mark, we had 0 outlets from defence, and Spurs enjoyed possession like they were playing against an under-16 side.
Not saying he should've stayed on the pitch, but, he is our best player.
Obviously the numbers would change, but pogba is straight up lazy and wouldn't get the same stats.
Good post.
Great post. Dare I say he believes his own hype too much. He is a big child
Wasn't it 2-2 ?
He was shit in that game, dominated by fecking Dembele.
Infact Matic was also poor, heck everyone was poor.
My opinion is we are far from defining how our midfield should be and this more from the fact that jose himself has actually not defined the philosophy of this team, are we possession based or counter attacking? We look clueless on how we want to play, we don't press enough, we don't counter attack well.
Infact Matic was also poor, heck everyone was poor.
My opinion is we are far from defining how our midfield should be and this more from the fact that jose himself has actually not defined the philosophy of this team, are we possession based or counter attacking? We look clueless on how we want to play, we don't press enough, we don't counter attack well.
Can you even imagine what Roy Keane would have had to say to Pogba during these games when he just comes off across as a lazy pansy?
You make some good points but you cannot select a set formation based on a player who has a sulk if he doesn't get what he wants.
Usually the shape of the team, especially in a big game, is to combat how the opponent plays and in a 4-3-3 (or what is called a 4-2-3-1) the shape of the midfield 3 is determined by how the opposition sets out their 3.
If Spurs played Dier and Wanyama as 2 holding midfield players with Alli as a number 10, then United would likely have played with Matic holding and Pogba/Lingard pushed on to Dier/Wanyama. Instead they played Dier deep with Dembele more advanced and Alli further forward again in fairly orthodox 6, 8, 10 roles.
In this instance, 4-3-3 was the right system for the game to match Spurs' system. The only question then is, who for United plays as the 6, 8 and 10 to match them up. There is an argument to say Lingard should have been dropped in favour of Herrera. That would have meant moving Pogba to the number 10 role (a role you said he can't play). Lingard is the in-form player. Herrera has had a poor season. It was better for the team if Lingard played that game.
So, if you say he has to play left of a 3 or left of a diamond 4, let's say Spurs started the game with Dier and Dembele both holding and United matched them up with Pogba (left of a 3) vs Dier and Lingard vs Dembele. Then early in the game Poch decides to push Dembele further forward, as an advanced number 8 on the left with Alli right. What should United do? Leave Dembele unmarked in that position? Drop Lingard deeper? Sub off Lingard for Herrera because Pogba can't be bothered playing that role? There has to be tactical flexibility in any formation depending on how a game is going.
On your list of flaws above, I completely disagree with the stamina one. He is an absolute physical specimen who played every minute of every game when fit last season with ease.
I disagree with those saying Pogba cannot play that role. He absolutely can. He was up against Mousa Dembele in an orthodox number 8 role. Dembele (a former striker) showed far more defensive work rate than Pogba.
Pogba has all of the attributes needed to be a superstar in that position. My worry is that he doesn't want to and that him not playing that role is more important to him than United winning a hugely pivotal game in their season. That is the biggest worry because it questions his mentality as a future leader of the team no matter what position he plays.
It's not a coincidence when he plays in a midfield 2 and doesn't perform well. It’s obvious that Pogba doesn't fancy himself playing in a position that requires defensive discipline, He is not that type of player and he will never be.
Unfortunately, I think you're right. I think his relationship with Jose may have changed after the Spurs game. I was amazed he took him off but it was fully deserved.
I would imagine Jose learnt a hell of a lot from that game.
Time for some tough love for Pogba. He wants to be the best? He needs to up his work rate defensively or productivity offensively. The only players who don't get defensive duties are those whose offensive production is insane like Messi/ Ronaldo etc. If you want to play in the center be the guy who makes it tick, he needs to put more work in, in most matches but most definitely against the big teams.
Yes, indeed. Arsenal keeper had a great game.
It was embarassing in that circumtance (considering also who replaced him) but this is a test. Either Pogba truly changes as a man or we might see Mourinho not hesitating to replace in these big games.
What if Pogba causes unrest in the dressing room if his superstar undroppable-player status is revoked by Mourinho? It could possibly lead to a mutiny in the squad and they could down tools just to prove a point.
It isn't uncommon in today's football reality and it's definitely something our manager has suffered before in his previous jobs.
Not that what you're saying has a chance of happening, but why would anyone else in the squad side with Pogba in this case?
I actually think the reaction to his performance has been harsh. He was poor for sure but there were at least 5 players more deserving of being hauled off, most of all his midfield partner. We actually died as an attacking force the minute he was off, he did create decent chances for Lingard and Lukaku.
I think it was more a statement from Mourinho than anything else. Pogba really has no right to be pissed, especially given Mourinho’s relentless praise of him to this point. I’ll only get concerned if he doesn’t start tomorrow. Pretty sure he will.
I think it was more a statement from Mourinho than anything else. Pogba really has no right to be pissed, especially given Mourinho’s relentless praise of him to this point. I’ll only get concerned if he doesn’t start tomorrow. Pretty sure he will.
It is a risk I suppose but I think (hope) he has better mentality than that. Adversity can be used to reveal the true worth of people and honestly this is nothing.
He just should look at how the best players in the world in his position do. They get involved but they keep it simple at the same time.
He has all the footballing tools to be a fantastic player in these games.
Pogba is obviously very close to Lukaku, Lingard, Martial, Rashford and probably a few of the other players. I'm not saying there is a high chance, but it's a possibility, given his influences.
I completely agree with you on all three points. Hopefully the situation resolves in a positive way for the club and for Pogba himself.
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