[POF]

It was embarassing in that circumtance (considering also who replaced him) but this is a test. Either Pogba truly changes as a man or we might see Mourinho not hesitating to replace in these big games.

It will be interesting to see if there is a change in dynamic. Pogba was one of the few untouchables who Jose would never criticise in public and would defend from any media scrutiny.

If things change it completely depends how he reacts. Rooney was nailed on to be captain under Fergie and regularly wore the armband for spells during games when he was extremely young. But when Fergie realised he couldn't trust him as a leader he was given a less pivotal role.

If Pogba doesn't react well, he may be given a less pivotal role in the side and Jose will find someone else as his future captain.

 

[Morpheus 7]

Think Paul is going to rip Huddersfield apart tomorrow, expect an assist or 2. The anniversary game of Munich combined with the criticism, united will turn up.

 

[Greck]

Maybe Jose'll realise that in hindsight it was harsh to tear into Scholes for saying what is just becoming obvious to him. Some of those criticisms were fair

 

[LoCalXT]

This whole thread is ridiculous ! As a coach its YOUR responsibility to put your players in positions to succeed. Even common fans with no coachcoa pedigree know that players like Pogba , Debryune , Xavi , Silva need a defensive shield.
If you expect Pogba to become prime Viera thats not going to happen. He is a luxury player , Jose knew this before buying . To this day I don't understand why Jose insists on playing a midfield 2 when it's iten proven time after time that it doesn't work for us.

 

[borrays]

Play him as no 10 against big clubs, that's the only logical solution for his laziness of putting shift on defense.

 

[eat_grass]

Mourinho said Pogba didn't get subbed because he wasn't following the game plan (I'm not buying it, but it's what he said):



Frank Lampard, Phil Nevile, and others rightly ripped into Pogba for seemingly putting no effort into the role he was tasked with. If the manager tells you to play out of position, play it. He's the manager, not you. If you put 100% effort into it and fail, then you can rightly point the finger at the manager. The right response isn't to sulk and half-ass it around the pitch.

 

[iluvoursolskjær]

Play him as no 10 against big clubs, that's the only logical solution for his laziness of putting shift on defense.

People keep speaking of putting Pogba in a more advanced role.

Ok, put him at 10. Who will partner Matic to link defence to attack? That’s why Carrick is a huge loss to our game, his intelligence and passing range (particularly those low driven passes) initiated attacks and relieved so much pressure when we’re on the back foot.

That’s why Pogba plays where he does, cos no one else can do it. That’s why we look like mugs when he’s not in the midfield.

Get a Kroos type and we’re good. Till then he needs to do what the team needs him to do and stop being a bitch.

 

[Raees]

You make some good points but you cannot select a set formation based on a player who has a sulk if he doesn't get what he wants.

Usually the shape of the team, especially in a big game, is to combat how the opponent plays and in a 4-3-3 (or what is called a 4-2-3-1) the shape of the midfield 3 is determined by how the opposition sets out their 3.

If Spurs played Dier and Wanyama as 2 holding midfield players with Alli as a number 10, then United would likely have played with Matic holding and Pogba/Lingard pushed on to Dier/Wanyama. Instead they played Dier deep with Dembele more advanced and Alli further forward again in fairly orthodox 6, 8, 10 roles.

In this instance, 4-3-3 was the right system for the game to match Spurs' system. The only question then is, who for United plays as the 6, 8 and 10 to match them up. There is an argument to say Lingard should have been dropped in favour of Herrera. That would have meant moving Pogba to the number 10 role (a role you said he can't play). Lingard is the in-form player. Herrera has had a poor season. It was better for the team if Lingard played that game.

So, if you say he has to play left of a 3 or left of a diamond 4, let's say Spurs started the game with Dier and Dembele both holding and United matched them up with Pogba (left of a 3) vs Dier and Lingard vs Dembele. Then early in the game Poch decides to push Dembele further forward, as an advanced number 8 on the left with Alli right. What should United do? Leave Dembele unmarked in that position? Drop Lingard deeper? Sub off Lingard for Herrera because Pogba can't be bothered playing that role? There has to be tactical flexibility in any formation depending on how a game is going.

On your list of flaws above, I completely disagree with the stamina one. He is an absolute physical specimen who played every minute of every game when fit last season with ease.

I disagree with those saying Pogba cannot play that role. He absolutely can. He was up against Mousa Dembele in an orthodox number 8 role. Dembele (a former striker) showed far more defensive work rate than Pogba.

Pogba has all of the attributes needed to be a superstar in that position. My worry is that he doesn't want to and that him not playing that role is more important to him than United winning a hugely pivotal game in their season. That is the biggest worry because it questions his mentality as a future leader of the team no matter what position he plays.

A lot of great players sulk if out of position. Messi does it all the time and gets rid of any player who is infringing on his position or affecting his effectiveness. Ronaldo too. Not saying Pogba has earnt that right but lots of great players want that autonomy and control over where they play.. why are we punishing Pogba for only being good in a specific area of the pitch and forcing him to be versatile just because he has a range of skills. You wouldn't put De Bruyne in a double pivot so why is Pogba being put there? He's being unfairly criticised for lacking tactical versatility when 9 times out of 10 most players are at their best in only one position.

Disagree that you should always set up to combat an opponent. You should look at how you can hurt them first and then balance it out with how to protect yourself without the ball. I don't see how in either train of thought one reaches the conclusion Pogba in a double pivot is the answer. You're less likely to hurt them if Pogba is further away from goal with CM responsibility and more likely to concede with him in CM because his defensive positioning and workrate for that role is below average.

You're right in that Jose needed to make a call.. either drop Pogba and go with Jesse, or drop Jesse and go 3 in midfield. He wasn't willing to make the tough choice and we got fecked for it and looked tactically inept.

Yes he's a physical specimen but some guys are beasts on the gym and get outlifted by guys half their size. You can't just look at how he looks and assume he's going to run up and down with high intensity. Compare the way Pogba covers a pitch compared to say Vidal or Keane in their prime.. those guys constantly kept moving, constant high intensity work whereas Pogba needs breathers in between his bursts like a Yaya Toure. Someone like Iniesta isn't played as a CM because he lacks the endurance of a Xavi for the more deeper role which involves lots of running which gets under appreciated and the lack of running has an effect on positioning because if you're tired you're less likely to put the effort in to get in the right position and that's why Pogba looks gassed whenever he's in CM. His body is built in a way where he can do short bursts of high intensity work with periods of rest - he isn't the type of guy whose an energiser bunny whose going to keep
Moving around in CM like a Kante for example. It isn't laziness it's just who he is as a player and you have to realise that and put him somewhere that's isn't going to get shown up.

For me he completely lacks the attributes to be the star for a CM position so I wholly disagree. I also think that it hurts him playing so badly in that position and he feels embarrassed which leads to him playing up or doing stupid stuff with the ball. He knows he becomes a liability for the side in that role in big games so it isn't necessarily selfishness - yes he wants to protect himself from being exposed but he also realises he's more likely to be on the winning side if the manager is playing him where he is comfortable. It must be frustrating when you're out of position and losing games because it is a double whammy. Whether he's leadership material is another question - let's focus on him becoming a world class player first. A guy who hasn't nailed his own game shouldn't be made a leader.

 

[POF]

A lot of great players sulk if out of position. Messi does it all the time and gets rid of any player who is infringing on his position or affecting his effectiveness. Ronaldo too. Not saying Pogba has earnt that right but lots of great players want that autonomy and control over where they play.. why are we punishing Pogba for only being good in a specific area of the pitch and forcing him to be versatile just because he has a range of skills. You wouldn't put De Bruyne in a double pivot so why is Pogba being put there? He's being unfairly criticised for lacking tactical versatility when 9 times out of 10 most players are at their best in only one position.

Disagree that you should always set up to combat an opponent. You should look at how you can hurt them first and then balance it out with how to protect yourself without the ball. I don't see how in either train of thought one reaches the conclusion Pogba in a double pivot is the answer. You're less likely to hurt them if Pogba is further away from goal with CM responsibility and more likely to concede with him in CM because his defensive positioning and workrate for that role is below average.

You're right in that Jose needed to make a call.. either drop Pogba and go with Jesse, or drop Jesse and go 3 in midfield. He wasn't willing to make the tough choice and we got fecked for it and looked tactically inept.

Yes he's a physical specimen but some guys are beasts on the gym and get outlifted by guys half their size. You can't just look at how he looks and assume he's going to run up and down with high intensity. Compare the way Pogba covers a pitch compared to say Vidal or Keane in their prime.. those guys constantly kept moving, constant high intensity work whereas Pogba needs breathers in between his bursts like a Yaya Toure. Someone like Iniesta isn't played as a CM because he lacks the endurance of a Xavi for the more deeper role which involves lots of running which gets under appreciated and the lack of running has an effect on positioning because if you're tired you're less likely to put the effort in to get in the right position and that's why Pogba looks gassed whenever he's in CM. His body is built in a way where he can do short bursts of high intensity work with periods of rest - he isn't the type of guy whose an energiser bunny whose going to keep
Moving around in CM like a Kante for example. It isn't laziness it's just who he is as a player and you have to realise that and put him somewhere that's isn't going to get shown up.

For me he completely lacks the attributes to be the star for a CM position so I wholly disagree. I also think that it hurts him playing so badly in that position and he feels embarrassed which leads to him playing up or doing stupid stuff with the ball. He knows he becomes a liability for the side in that role in big games so it isn't necessarily selfishness - yes he wants to protect himself from being exposed but he also realises he's more likely to be on the winning side if the manager is playing him where he is comfortable. It must be frustrating when you're out of position and losing games because it is a double whammy. Whether he's leadership material is another question - let's focus on him becoming a world class player first. A guy who hasn't nailed his own game shouldn't be made a leader.

As you have rightly pointed out, he has certainly not earned the right to dictate where he plays. If he reaches the level of Messi and Ronaldo where he wins titles for United as an attacker, he will have earned the right to push for a position there. I agree, let him become a world class player first. How many elite teams have you seen that are completely built around a player that isn't world class?

In his United career to date, I think he has played better in a 2 than on the left of a 3. He has certainly not been consistently outstanding in either role but the start of this season in a 4-2-3-1 was his best form in a United shirt. You seem to feel he doesn't have the athleticism or stamina to play in midfield. Do you think he is worse in those areas than Carrick, Scholes, Matic, Cleverley etc?

I don't think we will agree on his best role but what did you think of his attitude and work rate against Spurs? Even if he feels he's better in another role do you think he was justified in putting in those effort levels?

Against Spurs, Lingard played number 10 and right wing and has played right of a midfield 3 in recent weeks. Sanchez played left forward and number 10. Martial played right and left. None of those players sulked and acted like a moody teenager in any position they were asked to play. I don't understand why it is ok for Pogba to do so.

 

[Hawks2008]

He was pathetic, yes.
His worst game in a United shirt, yes.
Deserved to be subbed off, yes.

But as soon as that was done around the 70th mark, we had 0 outlets from defence, and Spurs enjoyed possession like they were playing against an under-16 side.

Not saying he should've stayed on the pitch, but, he is our best player.

Is he though? Definitely a contender for our best outfield player but as it stands I think De Gea and Sanchez are probably better than him.

 

[Litch]

For me my favourite player but he needs to turn up more often. I do think that we have to find another midfielder the compliments both Pogba and Matic, dovetailing between the two.

 

[edgar allan]

Maybe Jose'll realise that in hindsight it was harsh to tear into Scholes for saying what is just becoming obvious to him. Some of those criticisms were fair

That is very true.

 

[Adnan]

 

[edgar allan]

A lot of great players sulk if out of position.
For me he completely lacks the attributes to be the star for a CM position so I wholly disagree. I also think that it hurts him playing so badly in that position and he feels embarrassed which leads to him playing up or doing stupid stuff with the ball. He knows he becomes a liability for the side in that role in big games so it isn't necessarily selfishness - yes he wants to protect himself from being exposed but he also realises he's more likely to be on the winning side if the manager is playing him where he is comfortable. It must be frustrating when you're out of position and losing games because it is a double whammy. Whether he's leadership material is another question - let's focus on him becoming a world class player first. A guy who hasn't nailed his own game shouldn't be made a leader.

The level of the excuses for his poor performance are a bit galling for me. He wasn't asked to play out in the right wing or at centre half, it was a slightly different midfield position than his preferred.
One that he has played countless times before. A position that he has performed to a much higher level many times before.

Having a bad game is normal, not putting the effort in is unforgivable.
I don't think he was sulking because he was unhappy at his role, however if he was we have a serious spoilt player on our hands.

 

[Adnan]

It's not about making excuses for him. Matic is so static especially in a two that alot of our players suffered due to him being invisible.

 

[Ardis]

I'm also convinced he will thrive against Huddersfield. After all, he usually does more than well against mid-table and bottom-table sides.

 

[edgar allan]

It's not about making excuses for him. Matic is so static especially in a two that alot of our players suffered due to him being invisible.

Sounds like a bit of an excuse to me.

Maybe you could argue that Matic is suffering from Pogbas lack of effort and performance?

 

[Adnan]

Sounds like a bit of an excuse to me.

Maybe you could argue that Matic is suffering from Pogbas lack of effort and performance?

Or you could argue Matic is not mobile enough to play the holding role in a two. For a big guy he's physically abit soft too, which makes It worse, considering he's not quick.

Or you could ask Antonio Conte and Max Allegri on how to deploy Pogba in a starting 11..

 

[The No.10!]

Is he though? Definitely a contender for our best outfield player but as it stands I think De Gea and Sanchez are probably better than him.

My premise of saying it in this regard was the impact the team feels in his absence. De Gea is definitely right up there, but are we going to get impacted by his absence more than Pogba's? I'm not sure, it might call for a different debate.

Sanchez, on the other hand, is yet to prove himself for us.

 

[Raees]

As you have rightly pointed out, he has certainly not earned the right to dictate where he plays. If he reaches the level of Messi and Ronaldo where he wins titles for United as an attacker, he will have earned the right to push for a position there. I agree, let him become a world class player first. How many elite teams have you seen that are completely built around a player that isn't world class?

Yes but it is a chicken and egg situation, like Ronaldo in 2006.. he wasn't world class, but we gambled on letting go of Ruud to build the side around Ronaldo who turned world class, similar to Pep doing that at Barca getting rid of Ronaldinho to give Messi more influence.

We need to decide if we want to gamble on Pogba and bank on him becoming world class and commit to it, if not.. then we're going to have to sell him in a few years because right now it doesn't look like its going to lead to a fruitful relationship long term if he keeps getting played out of position and being asked to 'do a job'.

In his United career to date, I think he has played better in a 2 than on the left of a 3. He has certainly not been consistently outstanding in either role but the start of this season in a 4-2-3-1 was his best form in a United shirt. You seem to feel he doesn't have the athleticism or stamina to play in midfield. Do you think he is worse in those areas than Carrick, Scholes, Matic, Cleverley etc?

How many times have we actually played a proper 4-3-3 with two attacking wingers, a well-rounded 9 and a quality 8 next to Pogba in front of a CDM? And his performances in a 2 in big games has been relatively wretched unless we use Arsenal as a big club example - which doesn't count for me.

Yes I do think he's worse in those areas to all of them in that area. Scholes constantly moved in front of the defence to pick up the ball, forever looking for pockets of space and would always get back into position, rarely leaving gaps in the midfield. Matic and Carrick have great defensive coverage but obviously both are older now, but I'd still back them to cover more ground than Pogba in midfield in a defensive role which requires constant movement. Pogba is a moments player, he's not a player who can keep moving say like a Lothar Matthaus or Viera.

I don't think we will agree on his best role but what did you think of his attitude and work rate against Spurs? Even if he feels he's better in another role do you think he was justified in putting in those effort levels?

He's not justified no, but he gets overwhelmed when he's playing badly. It is immaturity on his part, but what can we do.. he's 24 and he still hasn't grown out of that. Will he ever? I don't know, but at least put him somewhere he is effective on the pitch and see if the attitude remains the same because this is like hitting a head against a brick wall.. his head always goes in CM against quality opposition - and why are we going to keep persisting with this route and ruining him and our chances of success.

Against Spurs, Lingard played number 10 and right wing and has played right of a midfield 3 in recent weeks. Sanchez played left forward and number 10. Martial played right and left. None of those players sulked and acted like a moody teenager in any position they were asked to play. I don't understand why it is ok for Pogba to do so.

Lingard is not an established footballer, who has played in CL finals or got to a Euro final. Sanchez wants to play as left forward and I am sure he wouldn't mind playing as a 10 either. It is not comparable to having to do the heavy lifting in CM or defensive duties. Put Sanchez at left wing back and see if he sulks then? in fact he couldn't stop sulking full stop at Arsenal despite being 29 years old.

Martial is always sulking if he's out of position. Rashford is as well. Lukaku sulked when the fans were against him and refused to celebrate. Pogba is hardly alone in this. Neymar sulks over not taking penalties. Ronaldo sulks because his bikini wax went wrong. Sulking is part and parcel of the game. These are huge egos we are dealing with.

 

[Raees]

The level of the excuses for his poor performance are a bit galling for me. He wasn't asked to play out in the right wing or at centre half, it was a slightly different midfield position than his preferred.
One that he has played countless times before. A position that he has performed to a much higher level many times before.

Having a bad game is normal, not putting the effort in is unforgivable.
I don't think he was sulking because he was unhappy at his role, however if he was we have a serious spoilt player on our hands.

Ask Lukaku to play as a support striker. Or ask Messi to play as a left winger, or Neymar on the right.

Why is it that if any of these players were made to do that, they would a) be found out in those positions and b) be well within their right to throw a strop if put in those positions, yet when Pogba wants to play in a particular role.. he's a lazy immature brat who doesn't do what he's told.

Playing as a CM in a pivot is night and day to playing as a left sided attacking midfielder in a three. It is a completely different discipline. Just because they're both midfield roles, doesn't make them one and the same. Would Roy Keane or Makelele be able to do Pogba's role in the left side of a three? could Iniesta play in a pivot? no so why is he expected to be a master of all trades when he's probably the worst suited out of all of them to be playing a variety of positions.

One requires way more defensive discipline, requires you to hold the centre of the park and control the game from the middle, and the other allows you to play as a quasi left midfielder/number 10 at times.. the areas of the pitch you cover are different and the tasks you carry out are different. Just because Pogba can sometimes pull off playing as a CM against weak opposition (Not IMO because even with him at CM its hardly glorious free-flowing possession football) does not mean that he is a competent CM who you can trust there against elite opposition.

 

[Vialli_92]

When a game is not going your way you have to get the basics right

Quite alarming he can't seem to do that at times

 

[POF]

Re Ronaldo, the team wasn’t built around him when Ruud was sold. There were lots of other talented players in the side at the time. It was built around him when his form demanded it had to be.

Re Pogba, I don’t agree with you, especially the part about Carrick, Scholes, Matic and Cleverley having better athleticism and stamina than Pogba. I find it strange that you say how different he is to Vieira in that way when physically they are quite similar athletes.

You think Pogba can only play in a very select left sided central midfield role, not too offensive, not too defensive with only the perfect combination of complementary teammates around him, yet think he has to play there for United to be successful. If he’s that limited, why would United build the whole team around him?

I think he is far more talented than you do. He is one of the most talented footballers I have seen at United. His ability is incredible and he can do most things on a football pitch. In my opinion, the only thing stopping him from being an elite central midfield player is him wanting to be one. I think his biggest weakness is not physical but his decision making. He is far too wasteful in the final third to be relied on as a key creative player and that is why there is far more upside for the team with him playing a deeper midfield role. It allows him to simplify his game which would improve him as a player significantly.

I have been really impressed with him at times this season. There have been signs of growing maturity and that he might develop into the midfield leader the club wants him to be. But his attitude at Spurs was so disappointing. It was a huge game and that non performance (by him and the rest of the team) has killed the momentum the team had been building.

I really hope that game (and being subbed off) is the kick in the arse he needs to get his head right and kick on to show what a top class player he can be. That’s probably the only thing we can agree on!

 

[edgar allan]

Ask Lukaku to play as a support striker. Or ask Messi to play as a left winger, or Neymar on the right.

Why is it that if any of these players were made to do that, they would a) be found out in those positions and b) be well within their right to throw a strop if put in those positions, yet when Pogba wants to play in a particular role.. he's a lazy immature brat who doesn't do what he's told.

Playing as a CM in a pivot is night and day to playing as a left sided attacking midfielder in a three. It is a completely different discipline. Just because they're both midfield roles, doesn't make them one and the same. Would Roy Keane or Makelele be able to do Pogba's role in the left side of a three? could Iniesta play in a pivot? no so why is he expected to be a master of all trades when he's probably the worst suited out of all of them to be playing a variety of positions.

One requires way more defensive discipline, requires you to hold the centre of the park and control the game from the middle, and the other allows you to play as a quasi left midfielder/number 10 at times.. the areas of the pitch you cover are different and the tasks you carry out are different. Just because Pogba can sometimes pull off playing as a CM against weak opposition (Not IMO because even with him at CM its hardly glorious free-flowing possession football) does not mean that he is a competent CM who you can trust there against elite opposition.

I can understand your argument but I don't accept it fully.
I agree it's not his best position but he was not overloaded with defensive responsibility in the Spurs game and again I make the point it is not performance but effort that concerned me most.
Lukaku has found himself out on the wing and whilst you can see he is not ideally suited for this he puts the effort in.
I would be sure that Messi would put a hugely more impressive effort (and performance) in if he had been playing Pogbas position.
The questions on Pogbas determination in his performances is a genuine one now, especially in tight games.
A couple of Hollywood passes today will not answer these concerns

 

[edgar allan]

Or you could argue Matic is not mobile enough to play the holding role in a two. For a big guy he's physically abit soft too, which makes It worse, considering he's not quick.

Or you could ask Antonio Conte and Max Allegri on how to deploy Pogba in a starting 11..

I suggest the truth is somewhere in between.
Has Jose got a formation developed that gets the best out of all our players ?
I suggest the answer frequently is no.

 

[Raees]

Re Ronaldo, the team wasn’t built around him when Ruud was sold. There were lots of other talented players in the side at the time. It was built around him when his form demanded it had to be.

Re Pogba, I don’t agree with you, especially the part about Carrick, Scholes, Matic and Cleverley having better athleticism and stamina than Pogba. I find it strange that you say how different he is to Vieira in that way when physically they are quite similar athletes.

You think Pogba can only play in a very select left sided central midfield role, not too offensive, not too defensive with only the perfect combination of complementary teammates around him, yet think he has to play there for United to be successful. If he’s that limited, why would United build the whole team around him?

I think he is far more talented than you do. He is one of the most talented footballers I have seen at United. His ability is incredible and he can do most things on a football pitch. In my opinion, the only thing stopping him from being an elite central midfield player is him wanting to be one. I think his biggest weakness is not physical but his decision making. He is far too wasteful in the final third to be relied on as a key creative player and that is why there is far more upside for the team with him playing a deeper midfield role. It allows him to simplify his game which would improve him as a player significantly.

I have been really impressed with him at times this season. There have been signs of growing maturity and that he might develop into the midfield leader the club wants him to be. But his attitude at Spurs was so disappointing. It was a huge game and that non performance (by him and the rest of the team) has killed the momentum the team had been building.

I really hope that game (and being subbed off) is the kick in the arse he needs to get his head right and kick on to show what a top class player he can be. That’s probably the only thing we can agree on!

PS am enjoying this debate with you even if we are disagreeing.

First point, well team was built for Ronaldo as we got Ruud because of him, to enable us to have a faster more fluid attack and make him feel comfortable due to personality clashes with Ruud. Fergie saw him as the key to our future success despite pre 2006 not really demonstrating he was a regular match winner etc.

Secondly the Viera point you made is a classic argument used by many and proof in point that many see him as Viera even though he's nothing like him as a player apart from being big and strong. Viera was a pure CM, he lived for that position and had the defensive nous and lungs for that position. Look at his positioning below, naturally sits deeper than Pogba, plays simple, has much less flair than Pogba, loves a tackle and doing defensive work and doesn't ball carry as much. They're very different players. If Pogba was not big black and strong, and was a 5ft 8 white guy.. he wouldn't be put in CM. Keeps getting unfairly labelled the new Viera when he is nothing like him.



Touching on the stamina point, Viera didn't have it in him to constantly ball carry in the way Pogba does, but he did have the endurance to keep making constant defensive runs, tracking and keep moving. He was more nimble and less flat footed than Pogba, whereas Pogba is less responsive and unable to react to fast paced defensive situations.

Thirdly, I agree relying on him solely as the teams playmaker would be flawed thinking. Which is why the Right midfielder in the trio would need to also have creative abilities and the CF has to be creative too and not just a poacher.. that way it is spread across the team rather than relying on one playmaker. Simplifying his game is not going to make him a better player if it is asking him to basically curtail his natural flair and act as a game controlling CM, its completely at odds with his style of play and his personality. Asking someone to drastically change who they are midway during their career is not going to be effective, he doesn't have that natural CM instinct.. he's more suited to being a creative player where lack of concentration etc is not as bad a trait. He's naturally a free spirit, not a disciplined soldier.

Finally the performance at Spurs exposed him, he's a fraud at CM - it is as simple as that. He knows that as well and it must have killed him inside and made him feel like crap and that explains why he lost his head. We can keep pushing him there, but deep down if he knows it isn't the right position for him and he knows he'll get exploited again next time we face a decent team.. then the same thing will keep happening.

 

[Raees]

I can understand your argument but I don't accept it fully.
I agree it's not his best position but he was not overloaded with defensive responsibility in the Spurs game and again I make the point it is not performance but effort that concerned me most.
Lukaku has found himself out on the wing and whilst you can see he is not ideally suited for this he puts the effort in.
I would be sure that Messi would put a hugely more impressive effort (and performance) in if he had been playing Pogbas position.
The questions on Pogbas determination in his performances is a genuine one now, especially in tight games.
A couple of Hollywood passes today will not answer these concerns

Final point from me is that if he gets played in his favoured position and in a years time, he's still disappearing and showing a lack of determination, I will be more than happy to be the first to call him out on it. I'm not a Pogba fanboy by any means, just know what it is like playing in midfield and feeling uncomfortable in certain midfield roles and it does have a huge impact on your ability to keep composed especially in a game of that magnitude. I'd rather give him a chance in his best position and then make a judgement about him rather than write him off for not being great in a position I've been saying for years that he can't play.

 

[AshRK]

I don't mind Jose making an example of our players but pogba is not the right way to start. If anything matic should be dropped or rested and not pogba. Take pogba out , we would have no creativity from our midfield. It's like getting one world class player in Sanchez only to drop other world class in pogba. Joke decision if true.

 

[bosnian_red]

My premise of saying it in this regard was the impact the team feels in his absence. De Gea is definitely right up there, but are we going to get impacted by his absence more than Pogba's? I'm not sure, it might call for a different debate.

Sanchez, on the other hand, is yet to prove himself for us.

You can say Pogba is yet to fully prove himself for us tbf

 

[POF]

PS am enjoying this debate with you even if we are disagreeing.

First point, well team was built for Ronaldo as we got Ruud because of him, to enable us to have a faster more fluid attack and make him feel comfortable due to personality clashes with Ruud. Fergie saw him as the key to our future success despite pre 2006 not really demonstrating he was a regular match winner etc.

Secondly the Viera point you made is a classic argument used by many and proof in point that many see him as Viera even though he's nothing like him as a player apart from being big and strong. Viera was a pure CM, he lived for that position and had the defensive nous and lungs for that position. Look at his positioning below, naturally sits deeper than Pogba, plays simple, has much less flair than Pogba, loves a tackle and doing defensive work and doesn't ball carry as much. They're very different players. If Pogba was not big black and strong, and was a 5ft 8 white guy.. he wouldn't be put in CM. Keeps getting unfairly labelled the new Viera when he is nothing like him.



Touching on the stamina point, Viera didn't have it in him to constantly ball carry in the way Pogba does, but he did have the endurance to keep making constant defensive runs, tracking and keep moving. He was more nimble and less flat footed than Pogba, whereas Pogba is less responsive and unable to react to fast paced defensive situations.

Thirdly, I agree relying on him solely as the teams playmaker would be flawed thinking. Which is why the Right midfielder in the trio would need to also have creative abilities and the CF has to be creative too and not just a poacher.. that way it is spread across the team rather than relying on one playmaker. Simplifying his game is not going to make him a better player if it is asking him to basically curtail his natural flair and act as a game controlling CM, its completely at odds with his style of play and his personality. Asking someone to drastically change who they are midway during their career is not going to be effective, he doesn't have that natural CM instinct.. he's more suited to being a creative player where lack of concentration etc is not as bad a trait. He's naturally a free spirit, not a disciplined soldier.

Finally the performance at Spurs exposed him, he's a fraud at CM - it is as simple as that. He knows that as well and it must have killed him inside and made him feel like crap and that explains why he lost his head. We can keep pushing him there, but deep down if he knows it isn't the right position for him and he knows he'll get exploited again next time we face a decent team.. then the same thing will keep happening.

Same. There’s never much to debate if you agree!

I know where you’re coming from re Ronaldo. There was certainly the element where he and Ruud didn’t get along and Fergie saw Ronaldo as the key player. At that time though, there was no special role for Ronaldo. He was still playing wide right in a 4-4-2. Rooney and Saha were the strikers with Giggs and Ronaldo wide.

I expected that response re Vieira and that is why I compared them as athletes not as players. I agree that they are not comparable as players. Pogba is a far more creative player than Vieira and actually has the potential to be a far better midfield player as a result. The comparison was simply to demonstrate the athleticism Pogba possesses. I just cannot rationalise that Pogba lacks the athleticism and stamina to play a role that Paul Scholes (an unathletic, asthmatic, short arse) played with distinction. The point was simply to show that Pogba has similar athleticism to Vieira and as a more creative player would likely need less athleticism to play there effectively than Vieira did.

When I say simplifying his game, I don’t mean to stop trying to be creative. He has so much talent it will always shine through. I mean when you have a 3 on 1 like he had at Burnley or Leicester that he should just lay a simple pass rather than try to dribble past the last defender or shoot from 30 yards. Or when he receives an awkward pass with a defender at his back he should lay it off first time rather than try to control it and dribble past 2 players on the edge of his own box. It’s like when Ronaldo limited his step overs and just ran past people with pure pace. It was less flashy but far more effective. He just needs to play smarter, pick his moments to surge forward, when to dribble and when to just retain possession.

Watching Pogba play the role at Spurs I can see why you believe so strongly that he cannot play there. But for me, watching him play there, I don’t see a single thing he is missing to be outstanding in that position that isn’t in his head.

 

[The No.10!]

You can say Pogba is yet to fully prove himself for us tbf

Definitely, I agree. But we have seen more than enough instances to defend my original premise - he is our best player because we are an absolutely different team without him, and not in a good way.

He needs to do a lot more, agreed, but I can't put him out of our 11.

 

[bosnian_red]

Definitely, I agree. But we have seen more than enough instances to defend my original premise - he is our best player because we are an absolutely different team without him, and not in a good way.

He needs to do a lot more, agreed, but I can't put him out of our 11.

Agree, he's obviously always part of our strongest 11 and we Need to get the best out of him. What I'm saying is it doesn't matter that Sanchez hasn't played much for us yet, he showed last season for arsenal he can be one of the top 3 players in the league when on form and pogba hasn't showed that yet consistently.

 

[LoCalXT]

I'm pretty sure we played a 3man midfield against Arsenal ; which is probably the only decent game he played against a top 6 barring the red card.

I still stand by my initial thoughts, play the player in a position he can be effective.
Barca covers for Messi, Real covers for Ronaldo, City covers for De Bruyne.
We are having the same conversation France fans were having with the coach and Pogba, at the end they went to a midfield 3 and Pogba destroyed Germany.

 

[The No.10!]

Agree, he's obviously always part of our strongest 11 and we Need to get the best out of him. What I'm saying is it doesn't matter that Sanchez hasn't played much for us yet, he showed last season for arsenal he can be one of the top 3 players in the league when on form and pogba hasn't showed that yet consistently.

I'm sorry but I beg to differ. Keeping the Spurs game aside, he has performed amicably this season, and has been bossing the mid fields in PL games at least. He is even managing to get those 'numbers' everyone shouts about, especially when it comes to assists.

The Sanchez argument cannot be used here. And I hope, I genuinely seriously hope it doesn't come to that, but we have seen examples of AdM, Veron, Kagawa, Mkhitaryan, and Schneiderlein (PL proven) as being unable to shine here at our level.

 

[FC Ronaldo]

Pogbenched.

 

[Andycoleno9]

Why?? He was bad against spurs but he was not the only one. Making example by benching best player after one loss. Stupid thing to do

 

[Dante]

Where are Rafael and Park when you need them?

 

[Santos J]

We'll still probably win but it's a daft decision. He wasn't the only one who was poor and we've seen this season how we're quite clearly better attacking-wise when he's in the team.

 

[Rozay]

This will be no end of ammunition for the ‘Pogba isn’t all that’ media.

 

[DWelbz19]

Remarkable.