Feck KDB. I actually dont care about him.
Fact is, Pogba's performances and consistency were much better at Juve. Three years on and he's regressed.
6
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 37
- Goals
- 6
- Assists
- 16
- Yellow cards
- 5
- Red cards
- 1
- Status
Feck KDB. I actually dont care about him.
Fact is, Pogba's performances and consistency were much better at Juve. Three years on and he's regressed.
There are lots of factors in this. Serie A is very different to Premier League where the latter is a much bigger step up. Players from the Italian league rarely perform well in the English one.
Then there's the controversial topic of him getting too carried away by his own hype. Doing unnecessary shit because he thinks he should or mistakenly thinking games will be too easy for him to bother.
Then there's this odd view that Mourinho has regressed him despite surrounding him by capable talent and playing him in his best role.
I'm not sure what the split is across the 3 and possibly more factors but I'm sure 90% of the problem lies with him as a player. He's just not that good. He wasn't even THAT good for Juventus.
Not an excuse for Pogba here (okay it is an excuse) but his managers at club and international level not exactly setting the world alight with their coaching.
You could equally make the excuse for Mourinho and Deschamps that their superstar player isn't setting the world alight with his performances on the field.
In all seriousness, his insistence on playing such a specific role really does limit the options for his coaches.
I actually find it quite strange how Mourinho is perceived. He took over a team hovering around 4th/5th in the EPL with no Champions League football and has established them as the 2nd best team in England and comfortably back in the Champions League. That is progress in anyone's book.
Doing some of the boring stuff again to give some of the moaners something to think about.
Premier League 2017/2018:
Games:27 (25 starts) 2 substitutions on and 5 substitutions off.
Goals: 6
Assists: 10
Goal or assist every 0,592 game/134 minutes.
He was directly involved in 23,5% of our goals.
I'll compare to players from teams that have scored similar amounts to us and work as a creator in those teams.
Mind you, these players tend to have less defensive work needed than Pogba and are positioned closer to the opponents goal.
Mezut Özil: 26 games, 4 goals and 9 assists. Goal or assist every 0,5 games/166 minutes & was involved in 17,5% of Arsenal's goals
Alexandre Lacazette: 32 games, 14 goals & 5 assists. Goal or assist every 0,593 games/116 minutes & was involved in 25,6% of Arsenal's goals.
Eden Hazard: 35 games, 12 goals and 4 assists. Goal or assist every 0,457 game/152 minutes & was involved in 25,8% of Chelsea's goals
Dele Alli: 36 games, 9 goals and 11 assists. Goal or assist every 0,55 games/148 minutes & was involved in 27% of Tottenham's goals.
Christian Eriksen: 37 games, 10 goals and 11 assists. Goal or assist every 0,567 games/153 minutes & was involved in 28,3% of Tottenham's goals.
His goal-point per minute ratio is only beaten by Lacazette of these, who is a striker that takes penalties & who doesn't have near the same defensive work demanded of him as Pogba.
Yet people often talk as if Pogba isn't performing. Pogba is performing at a very high level even just at production, yet he does a lot more than just that.
Win - Draw - Loss
18 - 5 - 4 with Pogba, 2,18 points per game.
7 - 1 - 3 without Pogba, 2 points per game.
Vs big teams:
Win - Draw - Loss
4 - 0 - 1 with Pogba, 2,4 points per game
2 - 1 - 2 without Pogba, 1,4 points per game.
Produced goal-points against:
(1st)City 1st: 2gp
(6th)Arsenal 1st: 2gp, 2nd: 1gp
(8th)Everton: 1st: 2gp
(10th)Newcastle 1st: 2gp
(12th)Bournemouth 1st: 1gp
(13th)West ham 1st: 1gp
(18th)Swansea: 1st: 2gp
(19th)Stoke: 1st: 1gp, 2nd: 2gp
In other words, he has produced against the top-, mid-and the bottom-table teams.
What he need to improve in my opinion is how fast he switches mentally from offense to defense when he or the team loses the ball, he spends a second or so dwelling on the lost opportunity which often leads to a lack of balance if he isn't covered.
The rest he is doing at a very high level even if he with his insane abilities could do better. Those who think he has been bad, and especially those who have hoped for him to be sold needs to get their heads checked.
Premier League 2017/2018:
Games:27 (25 starts) 2 substitutions on and 5 substitutions off.
Goals: 6
Assists: 10
Goal or assist every 0,592 game/134 minutes.
He was directly involved in 23,5% of our goals.
I'll compare to players from teams that have scored similar amounts to us and work as a creator in those teams.
Mind you, these players tend to have less defensive work needed than Pogba and are positioned closer to the opponents goal.
Mezut Özil: 26 games, 4 goals and 9 assists. Goal or assist every 0,5 games/166 minutes & was involved in 17,5% of Arsenal's goals
Alexandre Lacazette: 32 games, 14 goals & 5 assists. Goal or assist every 0,593 games/116 minutes & was involved in 25,6% of Arsenal's goals.
Eden Hazard: 35 games, 12 goals and 4 assists. Goal or assist every 0,457 game/152 minutes & was involved in 25,8% of Chelsea's goals
Dele Alli: 36 games, 9 goals and 11 assists. Goal or assist every 0,55 games/148 minutes & was involved in 27% of Tottenham's goals.
Christian Eriksen: 37 games, 10 goals and 11 assists. Goal or assist every 0,567 games/153 minutes & was involved in 28,3% of Tottenham's goals.
His goal-point per minute ratio is only beaten by Lacazette of these, who is a striker that takes penalties & who doesn't have near the same defensive work demanded of him as Pogba.
Yet people often talk as if Pogba isn't performing. Pogba is performing at a very high level even just at production, yet he does a lot more than just that.
Win - Draw - Loss
18 - 5 - 4 with Pogba, 2,18 points per game.
7 - 1 - 3 without Pogba, 2 points per game.
Vs big teams:
Win - Draw - Loss
4 - 0 - 1 with Pogba, 2,4 points per game
2 - 1 - 2 without Pogba, 1,4 points per game.
Produced goal-points against:
(1st)City 1st: 2gp
(6th)Arsenal 1st: 2gp, 2nd: 1gp
(8th)Everton: 1st: 2gp
(10th)Newcastle 1st: 2gp
(12th)Bournemouth 1st: 1gp
(13th)West ham 1st: 1gp
(18th)Swansea: 1st: 2gp
(19th)Stoke: 1st: 1gp, 2nd: 2gp
In other words, he has produced against the top-, mid-and the bottom-table teams.
What he need to improve in my opinion is how fast he switches mentally from offense to defense when he or the team loses the ball, he spends a second or so dwelling on the lost opportunity which often leads to a lack of balance if he isn't covered.
The rest he is doing at a very high level even if he with his insane abilities could do better. Those who think he has been bad, and especially those who have hoped for him to be sold needs to get their heads checked.
Collected from transfermarkt.
Opponent - position - product (result with our score first)
West ham - CM - 1 goal (4-0)
Swansea - CM - 1 goal & 1 assist (4-0)
Leicester - CM - (2-0)
Stoke - AM - 1 assist (2-2)
Then he had 7 games out due to a thigh muscle injury, during those games we had 4 wins (Everton 4-0, Southampton 1-0, Palace 4-0 & Spurs 1-0), 1 draw (Liverpool 0:0) and 2 losses (Huddersfield 1-2 & Chelsea 0-1)
Newcastle - CM - 1 goal & 1 assist (4-1)
Brighton - CM - (1-0)
Watford - DM - (4-2)
Arsenal - CM - 2 assist (3-1)
Picked up a red card against Arsenal and was out for 1 loss (Man City 1-2) and 2 wins (Bournemouth 1-0 & West Brom 2-1)
Leicester - CM - (2-2)
Burnley - DM - (2-2)
Southampton - CM - (0-0)
Everton - CM - 2 assist (2-0)
Stoke - CM - 2 assist (3-0)
Burnley - CM - (1-0)
Spurs - CM - (0-2)
Huddersfield - CM - (2-0)
Newcastle - CM - (0-1)
Chelsea - AM - (2-1)
Palace - CM - (3-2)
Not in the squad for the 2-1 win against Liverpool.
Swansea - CM - (2-0)
City - CM - 2 goals (3-2)
West brom - CM - (0-1)
Bournemouth - CM - 1 assist (2-0)
Arsenal - AM - 1 goal (2-1)
Brighton - AM - (0-1)
West ham - CM - (0-0)
Watford CM - (1-0)
Opponent - position - product (result with our score first)
West ham - CM - 1 goal (4-0)
Swansea - CM - 1 goal & 1 assist (4-0)
Leicester - CM - (2-0)
Stoke - AM - 1 assist (2-2)
Then he had 7 games out due to a thigh muscle injury, during those games we had 4 wins (Everton 4-0, Southampton 1-0, Palace 4-0 & Spurs 1-0), 1 draw (Liverpool 0:0) and 2 losses (Huddersfield 1-2 & Chelsea 0-1)
Newcastle - CM - 1 goal & 1 assist (4-1)
Brighton - CM - (1-0)
Watford - DM - (4-2)
Arsenal - CM - 2 assist (3-1)
Picked up a red card against Arsenal and was out for 1 loss (Man City 1-2) and 2 wins (Bournemouth 1-0 & West Brom 2-1)
Leicester - CM - (2-2)
Burnley - DM - (2-2)
Southampton - CM - (0-0)
Everton - CM - 2 assist (2-0)
Stoke - CM - 2 assist (3-0)
Burnley - CM - (1-0)
Spurs - CM - (0-2)
Huddersfield - CM - (2-0)
Newcastle - CM - (0-1)
Chelsea - AM - (2-1)
Palace - CM - (3-2)
Not in the squad for the 2-1 win against Liverpool.
Swansea - CM - (2-0)
City - CM - 2 goals (3-2)
West brom - CM - (0-1)
Bournemouth - CM - 1 assist (2-0)
Arsenal - AM - 1 goal (2-1)
Brighton - AM - (0-1)
West ham - CM - (0-0)
Watford CM - (1-0)
There was a thread on here the other week about US phrases making their way into football. The stat-ification of the game is certainly an American trend which has become vastly popular. The problem is that it becomes surface level analysis, goal and assists, key passes, entirely without context. Where are the stats for when a player doesn't track a run and it directly leads to a goal, or when a player holds on to the ball far too long when an early pass could create an opportunity? There are numerous other scenarios along those lines that you can not find data on. Football is not Basketball/American football or even Baseball, sports where it is much easier to score.
Pogba's basic stats may be good but the eye test shows obvious issues with his game.
Pogba's basic stats may be good but the eye test shows obvious issues with his game.
While stats may not tell the whole story.....surely your first question would affect points per game ? Your second question would impact assists over the course of the season ?
So while, like all players, at times he could do better, stats for goals and assists and points per game don't back up the myth he's had a bad season.
Great post @Ødegaard.
The level of criticism Pogba gets is getting beyond ridiculous now. Can he improve? Of course he can, but that doesn't mean he hasn't been performing. Once we get more fluidity into our game and we transition from defense to attack quicker Pogba will really start to shine.
The level of criticism Pogba gets is getting beyond ridiculous now. Can he improve? Of course he can, but that doesn't mean he hasn't been performing. Once we get more fluidity into our game and we transition from defense to attack quicker Pogba will really start to shine.
He's had an underwhelming season. The problem with him is that people rarely a level headed analysis, they expect too much therefore criticize too much or they are about to praise anything he does. He is a good player but much more is expected from him
Thanks.
Agreed, he can obviously improve both on performance and output, but that doesn't mean either is at the point where he isn't contributing a significant amount to us in both aspects.
He is a key-player for us regardless of what a lot on here want to believe.
I strongly believe that what the team needs is better personell in defense so we can push our play higher up the field, spend less energy moving quickly in longer directions and give our attackers more freedom to do their job because we have quality people in defense they can rely on to stop counters.
All our attackers (apart from Lukaku) enjoy attacking on the left side: Pogba likes to go out on the left, Martial, Sanchez & Rashford also enjoy playing from the left as opposed to the right. Yet we don't have a supportive left-back to free them up from as high defensive focus and we don't have a defender that can overlap and give a good cross to Lukaku.
On the right we are really lacking someone to play on the right-wing, but there are question-marks from some over Valencia's qualities. I think we'll need a right-winger even if Dalot ends up as a superior version of Valencia. A wingback shouldn't be expected to take the whole side alone as Valencia is currently.
We need Bailly to be less injured and find a partnership with a new CB that is good enough to cover for him when Bailly presses their attackers and who is good enough on the ball so we can stay higher up on the pitch and not be put in a bad situation when teams stay compact and force our defenders to be on the ball, that CB also needs to be quite good in the air. A hard find.
With that done I'd be very happy with our first eleven and I think we as a team would play more expansive football and pressing higher up on the pitch. Before getting that it makes no sense to press high and expose ourselves to obvious counters. If we get those things and Mourinho still plays defensively then I can support those bemoaning our style.
It's problematic that you judge a CM performing well or not, based on goals and assists. You are basically missing the majority of his job particularly when he has 4 attacking players in front of him, most of the time. Pogba is an extremely talented player but has a CM he is very average, the only silver lining is that he can go beyond his main responsibilities and sometimes make up for his flaws. We are obviously better with him than without him but he needs to play like a top CM too.
Pogba is not under performing. This is his level. The only criticism of managers is that Mourinho thought he could turn into an all round midifelder like Keane or Viera so he bought him to build the midfield.
Conte or Aleggri did not make him work as a key midfielder. They had other players run the midfield while Pogba was further up where he couldn't mess things up like he is doing now with more responsibility. It was Pirlo and Vidal at first, then Khedira and Marchisio after that.
Midfield was a priority for this summer because the Pogba as a midfield leader experiment has failed. Pogba has the skill set to be a midfield leader next to a no.6, but its obviously not working. Matic has worked with both Fabregas and Kante.
Vidal was higher than Pogba, it doesn't change much to your point but Pogba while being used as a spark wasn't very high and not higher than Vidal.
Yes Vidal went more into the box than Pogba, but the point remains the same. Vidal had more responsibility and had to cover more of the pitch. When Pogba joins the attack he is very slow to get back into position at United, which is something he had at Juventus as well.
In terms of the defensive phase at Juventus he was either tasked with pressing the ball to win the ball back quickly, or to be part of a low block to support the wingback. At United he has a much larger set of tasks to fulfill, he is required to do a bit of everything which he has struggled with. Press high up the pitch when losing the ball, tracking back to cover the spaces in the defense, tracking runners into the box. supporting the fullback in a low block.
It's a different tactical role, in a more important part of the team. He is a unique player, in that he views the game like an attacker but has the skillset of a midfielder.
really dude???? average. He can never be average as he will make many too many big contributions over the course of 90 mins as well as the season.
So much history is being re-written here.
And at the same time, he will have too many periods were he is an handicap or totally absent which leads to an overall averageness particularly when you judge him as a top player which is what we are doing. I'm not comparing him with the Charlie Adams of this world.
you kind of are when you use the word average
Maybe I should have made the context more explicit but we are talking about Pogba at United compared to top players since that's the expectation. In that context, he isn't at the top, he is fairly average.
But whose eye?
The guy sitting on his sofa who hasn't kicked a ball in years?
The keen amateur?
The former pro turned pundit?
The failed manager?
The league winning manager?
Jose Mourinho?
Everyone will have their opinion. Some will exaggerate things, some will be downright biased, some will be plain wrong.
You can say the stats are misleading all you like and say you should just watch him play, but you might not know what you're looking at.
It's problematic that you say he is average as a cm when he has the abilities he has and often is the difference between if the fans can stomach our football or not.
Points per game also shows we are performing better with him than without him, especially against top teams.
He has defensive deficiencies but that doesn't make him average at all.
I agree with both of you but at the same time, how does Pogba's performances compared to his team mates at club and international level? Pogba should absolutely take the brunt of the criticism but the coaching is a problem too because his team mates aren't exactly bossing it. Sure their bottom level and consistency might be better (this is the main thing Pogba needs to improve on) but it's not like he is the odd one out in terms of ability-to-performance ratio.
Who are you thinking of? I can't really think of players who have performed below their level. We have quite a few players that aren't really that good, so we cannot really be hoping for some great elevation in performances (mostly most of our defenders). I think the criticism of Pogba is absolutely fair and he is the odd one out IMV. Mainly because of what you agree with earlier, that Pogba's bottom level isn't good enough.
If, Pogba works his socks off like old man Matic, our game will be so much difference. Watched Matic desperately tried to cover ground while Pogba just jogged around was so painful.
You can jog, if you are CR7 or Messi. This laziness of Pogba remind me of one of biggest flop in Europe while has all talents in the world, Juan Roman Riquelme. But at least Riquelme has the magic pass and high IQ of football.
He needs to start to care and play like adult. Reducing fancy unnecesary things as an example will be a good start.
You can jog, if you are CR7 or Messi. This laziness of Pogba remind me of one of biggest flop in Europe while has all talents in the world, Juan Roman Riquelme. But at least Riquelme has the magic pass and high IQ of football.
He needs to start to care and play like adult. Reducing fancy unnecesary things as an example will be a good start.
he won't. He already suggested in the interview that this is his style
Much for underrating Pogba, Pogba has won more man of a match than the likes of Matic, Lukaku, Valencia etc in the league despite playing fewer games and had a major injury. Consistency is only his problem that he couldn't keep up with form.
My brothers best friend is a professional tennis coach and had lunch with Madrids president on Tuesday and “Apparently” he told him Pogba has been offered to all Europes big clubs as Jose wants rid before the WC is complete. Of course this could be bullsh*t but I have no reason to doubt him as he was on the madrid teams plane to the champions league final too. I’ll screenshot this aswell incase its true because no doubt some will call BS as I probably would!
IF this is true, Neymar comes to mind or Bale?
IF this is true, Neymar comes to mind or Bale?
Time for Pogba to have his moment in the spotlights. At 25 years old, entering what are usually the prime years, he should be stepping up big time for France in this WC.
Doesn't make sense to me. If Mou were to want to sell him, it makes more sense to wait until after the WC is over, as his value will be boosted if he does well. This said, I don't believe Mourinho wants to sell him personally.
Could be ?
Oh dont get me wrong, I called BS straight away but he’s not the type to randomly make something up. I want pogba to stay! Creativity out best player by a mile!
Nah he just needs to play well and help the team function along with the rest of his teammates. With a frontline of Mbappe, Griezmann and Dembele you’d imagine that they will grab the headlines.
Does this mostly for united, gets slated for not doing enough
I would prefer to get rid of him and sign a #10. I see better balance without him in the team and more potential of success in the long run.
Think he will stay though, and i hope he proves me wrong with his performance next season.
If we were aggressively shopping Pogba it wouldn't be your brother's best friend (who is also a tennis coach) who breaks the news. Several outlets would have caught wind of it.
However I do believe Pep wasn't lying when he said Raiola offered him. Raiola shopping Pogba behind the club's back is exactly how we lost Pogba the first time so maybe Raiola is offering him on the downlow not the club
feck you Souness!!!
Loved that .
Hope he has a great tournament.
Hope he has a great tournament.
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