Matić is not the problem. Lots of times he's all alone in midfield.
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I tried to say this when Matic has a bad game...because it's almost always because he has to deal with 2-3 players by himself because Pogba does not help.
This thread goes from one extreme to the other, one period he has the propensity to be better than Zidane the next minute, he is a liability.
To me he's just the right player in the wrong tactical setup and under the wrong manager, his talent while not Zidane level is enough to be arguably the best midfielder in the world, and why he isn't fulfilling that potential is down to his mentality and that of the coach's to put simply they both just seem to be the wrong match for each other at this moment in time.
To me he's just the right player in the wrong tactical setup and under the wrong manager, his talent while not Zidane level is enough to be arguably the best midfielder in the world, and why he isn't fulfilling that potential is down to his mentality and that of the coach's to put simply they both just seem to be the wrong match for each other at this moment in time.
There's no excuse today. He had all the freedom in the world. Lingard was covering for him and playing deeper than him.
He needs to take a look in the mirror. That was even worse than his Wembley performance.
He needs to take a look in the mirror. That was even worse than his Wembley performance.
Oh, here we go again. Which very specific player do we need to play in midfield, then, in order for Pogba to look like he gives a shit?
I said this the other day, I’d listen to the arguments against a midfield two if he was playing amazing stuff going forward but leaving us exposed at the back.
The fact is in a 4-2-3-1 he has every opportunity to get on the ball constantly and completely dominate a game. Some might argue that’s a bit of a waste as he’s more dangerous going forward, but it simply doesn’t excuse these lazy, careless, performances which are hurtful to the team.
Once again, Pogba being asked to do some defensive work doesn’t completely neutralise his ability to look like a semi-competent player who actually cares about the game.
This guy should be able to play any MF role - starting to wonder about the mentality, tbh.
Having said that, it would strengthen the MF overall to get him further forward in a proper hardcore 3. Esp for the away games.
Having said that, it would strengthen the MF overall to get him further forward in a proper hardcore 3. Esp for the away games.
Must be experiencing some remorse for "going back home" at this point. I hope he's got the character to rise to the challenge, and prove his worth, but I have a feeling that this might not end well.
It's obviously some combination of loss of form and a mental problem, because he's been excellent in periods this season, in the same role he's now entirely dysfunctional in.
It's obviously some combination of loss of form and a mental problem, because he's been excellent in periods this season, in the same role he's now entirely dysfunctional in.
Which is why we should play with more players in midfield.
For some reason has been off the boil with his energy despite getting plenty of rest due to thinner schedule lately. Started when with Burnley away. Still does something special here and there but has been a different player from the Pogba vs Stoke. Don't tell Raiola spike his food since Mkhi left us 
Mourinho said "I don't analyse players individually" when asked about Pogba. He really does seem angry about the recent performances.
He's in bad form but he had a period of bad form last season as well. Anyone who watched him at Juve know if the same happened there or was he more consistent?
When he leaves and starts tearing it up at Madrid/Barcelona this forum will be an interesting read. We aint signing him for a 3rd time that's for sure so I hope things workout one way or the other.
He will never be anywhere near the level of Vieira, I have yet to see him truly dominate a game from midfield. I completely agree with Souness as a midfield player he isn't good enough.
Looks brilliant higher up, but he was bought to control games and he can't do that.
You can't judge someone for what they may or may not do elsewhere.
If Mhiki scores 25 goals for Arsenal, So what ? He was shite here and it was the right decision to sell.
We aren't there with Pogba and it has to work, we can't keep chucking money around. But he needs 10-12 consequtive games where he is consistently making the difference.
This is the post match interview after Stoke where he talks about playing further forward:
Mourinho quotes after the Stoke game:
“He was moving the ball fantastically well, with long passes changing the direction and creating problems for the opponent.
“He had an assist and if he had scored the free-kick with the last shot of the game, it would be really a reward for him.
“I think he is happy with the way the team is playing and he’s happy because the team is changing the profile and the profile is going more in his direction,” Mourinho said afterwards.
What has happened since then? Why is there a difference between what Pogba does on the pitch, and what Mourinho expects him to do? Is it too much to ask that a coach and a proffessional player communicate?
This situation is a bit toxic imo.
McTominay should start from now on, he deserved to start against Newcastle as well. Pogba doesn’t fit Mourinho’s vision.
Mourinho quotes after the Stoke game:
“He was moving the ball fantastically well, with long passes changing the direction and creating problems for the opponent.
“He had an assist and if he had scored the free-kick with the last shot of the game, it would be really a reward for him.
“I think he is happy with the way the team is playing and he’s happy because the team is changing the profile and the profile is going more in his direction,” Mourinho said afterwards.
What has happened since then? Why is there a difference between what Pogba does on the pitch, and what Mourinho expects him to do? Is it too much to ask that a coach and a proffessional player communicate?
This situation is a bit toxic imo.
McTominay should start from now on, he deserved to start against Newcastle as well. Pogba doesn’t fit Mourinho’s vision.
I used to think the people who said Pogba would be disrupted by Alexis Sanchez wage, were unrealistic and thinking our players were childish. Now i'm not so sure. Take a look in the mirror Paul. It's ok to have a bad day or two, but there is no excuse for not putting in the effort.
Not as disgraceful as your pathetic agenda. You know absolutely nothing about his condition or mentality, potential injury and what not - so perhaps better to shut up? Him being subbed once again in the 60th minute is probably down to «something» rather than him just being poor. Furthermore, your comment on his fake act is even more ridiculous when you know absolutely nothing. Speculate all you want, don’t conclude stuff like you know him personally.
He has been invisible the last few games, but Mourinho seldom subs him right after the HT, so I expect there to be a physical problem of some sort going on.
I posted the exact same interview after the Spurs game but nobody seemed to care. It's more than obvious Pogba wants to play only a specific role and maybe Jose is unhappy with that, causing a problem behind the scenes.
SAF did not ship him out.
Looks like a completely different player since we bought Alexis. Hope it got nothing to do with it.
Seems like he was a different player at Juve - hungry, energetic with a lot of fight in him, like he was trying to prove a point. Maybe he "proved" that point and after we bought him back he just stopped putting that sort of effort anymore. Maybe all that self glory got into his head and maybe SAF was right all along.
Hope i'm wrong though cause he's my favorite player in our current team.
Seems like he was a different player at Juve - hungry, energetic with a lot of fight in him, like he was trying to prove a point. Maybe he "proved" that point and after we bought him back he just stopped putting that sort of effort anymore. Maybe all that self glory got into his head and maybe SAF was right all along.
Hope i'm wrong though cause he's my favorite player in our current team.
Where has this Jose and pogba sulking/falling out issue come from exactly as I've seen no evidence to suggest there's a problem with these two ?
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You should know there is no room for facts or nuance in a Pogba thread.
I appreciate him not crying off after the knock he picked up in the warm up but he really shouldn't have played. His game was hindered because of it which didn't help the team.
Everyone is mentioning it and it's getting a bit boring now but it has to be said that at this moment in time he shouldn't be playing in a midfield two. Maybe when he has peaked I could possibly see him playing in a two but right now he's just nowhere near as effective. You could argue that for a player who cost a lot of money he should be adaptable to play in a variation of roles but no matter how much we try to mould him into that it's just not working. When he's got the freedom he is clearly our best player, that showed in the match against Everton last month.
Everyone is mentioning it and it's getting a bit boring now but it has to be said that at this moment in time he shouldn't be playing in a midfield two. Maybe when he has peaked I could possibly see him playing in a two but right now he's just nowhere near as effective. You could argue that for a player who cost a lot of money he should be adaptable to play in a variation of roles but no matter how much we try to mould him into that it's just not working. When he's got the freedom he is clearly our best player, that showed in the match against Everton last month.
I find it ironic that Jose has been smug in his justification of how Pogba has been used. He's thrown cheap digs at anyone who has questioned his use of Pogba.
Either Pogba is being misused by Mourinho or we spent £90m on a player that is a good player but really not all that. Jose can't be telling us that Pogba is such a great player and being used effectively if he is delivering this level of performance.
People try and compare him to KDB but the truth is since he's been here he's not even outperformed someone like Dembele. He's a 7/10 signing so far and that's underwhelming for a player of his stature.
Either Pogba is being misused by Mourinho or we spent £90m on a player that is a good player but really not all that. Jose can't be telling us that Pogba is such a great player and being used effectively if he is delivering this level of performance.
People try and compare him to KDB but the truth is since he's been here he's not even outperformed someone like Dembele. He's a 7/10 signing so far and that's underwhelming for a player of his stature.
There was clearly something affecting Pogba today, he wasn’t moving freely at all. Perhaps Mourinho should have taken the decision out of his hands but it’s well known that he wants his players to play through the pain barrier.
Mentioned this in the other thread, and I'll add the following comments which are that this is heading towards breaking point.
I can't see how Pogba will become a giant under Mourinho's leadership I really can't.
We have to ask ourselves whether we prioritise Mourinho over Pogba/Martial.. normally I'd be pro manager but I genuinely think if we get a more proactive attacking manager, we'd see less wastage of talent, more fluid football and less examples of talented players playing within themselves and us constantly looking over at likes of City/Liverpool with envy.
When you are playing in a midfield 2, you really can’t be carrying a passenger with you, and thats what Pogba was today. The game just passed him by and he wasn’t putting himself in positions to affect the offensive or defensive plays. For time being, we need to either drop Pogba or Lingard for Mctominay/Herrera, especially in Away games
Jose has enabled Pogba and his approach for a while, probably in the hope that with confidence and experience the rest of his game would drop into place. Now though, I think Jose is rightfully getting frustrated that the penny isn't dropping.
I'm a big fan of Pogba, have been since his youth team days. I think Jose obviously is too, and I'm sure he is seeing the same thing in Pogba. He could be something brilliant, but he is trying to go down the wrong path as a player, one that will never see him reach the top level.
What I think Jose is trying to do now is akin to a trainer breaking in a horse. He see's the talent but now that talent has to be moulded into something that can perform. He'll be treated like any other player that gets dropped if they don't do as asked. Let's see how Pogba responds, but something had to be done imo. He will never be this world class player unless he changes the way he sees the game.
Interestingly enough, I think Pogba played with far more maturity at 17 years old. He sat in midfield when needed and he played the game like a young version of prime Paul Scholes, with the occasional flamboyance that would set him apart. Somewhere along the line everything has gone to his head.
I'm a big fan of Pogba, have been since his youth team days. I think Jose obviously is too, and I'm sure he is seeing the same thing in Pogba. He could be something brilliant, but he is trying to go down the wrong path as a player, one that will never see him reach the top level.
What I think Jose is trying to do now is akin to a trainer breaking in a horse. He see's the talent but now that talent has to be moulded into something that can perform. He'll be treated like any other player that gets dropped if they don't do as asked. Let's see how Pogba responds, but something had to be done imo. He will never be this world class player unless he changes the way he sees the game.
Interestingly enough, I think Pogba played with far more maturity at 17 years old. He sat in midfield when needed and he played the game like a young version of prime Paul Scholes, with the occasional flamboyance that would set him apart. Somewhere along the line everything has gone to his head.
Just because he cost 90m doesn’t mean he can play a variety of midfield roles. He cost that much for his skill set.
If you played KDB in a midfield two City would struggle too. Or at least he less successful. Does that mean KDB is somehow less a player? Of course not.
He should be playing in a midfield 3 and one that does not include Lingard, who is distinctly not a central midfielder.
I’ve been pro Jose all along but his reluctance to get these basics right is seriously starting to get annoying.
If you played KDB in a midfield two City would struggle too. Or at least he less successful. Does that mean KDB is somehow less a player? Of course not.
He should be playing in a midfield 3 and one that does not include Lingard, who is distinctly not a central midfielder.
I’ve been pro Jose all along but his reluctance to get these basics right is seriously starting to get annoying.
It's funny how people see situations in a way it fits their agenda. Pogba was obviously ducking in order to allow Young to pass the ball on the other flank, where Valencia was totally free. He had no physical problems in this game and it wasn't the first time I see him slacking in terms of work-rate, but before these last few matches, it was almost forbidden on RedCafe to criticise the Frenchman.
Great post on the Pogba dilemma. I too don't understand how such an experienced manager like Mourinho cannot see that Pogba is wasted playing deep. It's a criminal misuse of one of the best attacking midfielders in the world if not the best. No one is saying he can't put a shift in there but he is playing like you said 1.5 between a DM and a CM where in reality he should be something of a cross between a CM and a AM or pure number 10 like Ozil/ Silva/Eriksen etc.
De Bruyne is not even a central midfielder; he has adapted his game to play a deeper role.
Silva is also not a central midfielder (he is like Lingard; a no.10 with midfield qualities).
Man City play with a specialist DM and two no.10s. This is not that different to a specialist DM, a box to box, and a no.10.
Pogba is NOT being played out of position; he is a midfielder with license to join the attack while Matic is responsible for protecting the back 4. No manager will free Pogba of all responsibility in defense; the only player that is free from this is the striker.
Alexis Sanchez who is an attacker contributes more in defense than Pogba who is a midfielder. This is not a fault of a system but a lack of application by Pogba, and is a problem that must be addressed.
I think you are over hyping Pogba. Talent is a wonderful thing and Pogba is undoubtedly talented. But it takes more than talent to be consistently good and to be the very best. Pogba needs to buckle up frankly. Put Messi and Ronaldo in the centre half position and even though you will not get the best out of them, I guarantee you, you will still see heart and demonstration of the basics of football. What I saw Pogba demonstrate today had nothing to do with formation. He was miskicking passes, uninterested, and generally cared little.
As for Jose, let's be fair, he has a list of creative players he has managed pretty well.
Right now he's not even top 5 AM in the PL. If Pogba ever decides to make a real go of being a dominant CM, with all his skill and talent, then he'll be truly something special and unique.
Look at how Moussa Dembele made the transition from striker to such a force in CM. It can be done. He's not a slow, lightweight player, he can physically dominate in midfield whilst being able to produce the goods from all areas of the pitch.
100% correct
You can claim ignorance all you want (or maybe it's genuine), but the pattern has been set: when Pogba shows lack of effort or desire, he gets sat on the bench. That's different than just being invisible or playing poorly. It happened against Spuds, and now against Newcastle.
So how does Pogba cap it all off? By wearing a dramatic, sad dog face on the bench, knowing the cameras would pick it up. It's an act, intended to show the media his discontent with his current expected role on the pitch.
It's not a physical problem -- it's mental, and it's sulking.
That post should be pinned on every page. It's 100% accurate, IMO.
Mourinho hinted at what's changed in the press conference: Pogba's family members are in his ear telling him Mourinho is misusing him.
You're right. He chose to leave United for Juventus because of lack of playing time, and SAF was fed up with his disrespectful attitude. SAF has more than once commented on Pogba's attitude and mental makeup, and not in a positive way. That's why he said he was happy that Pogba left. So, not shipped out, just helped to the door.
On the other hand, there was the occasion early in the second half where Newcastle were attacking and Pogba just ambles back towards our own area and Lingard ( I think it was Lingard ) flew past him to try to actually defend while Pogba was just watching at his leasure.
Maybe GifLord can show us that one as well....
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