Valid argument, I can accept that may be the case.
Ousmane Dembele | Fee agreed with Dortmund, medical on Monday, Barca go from MSN to LSD
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I'd go as far as offering Martial + 70m for this kid.
It's clear that 100m euros is more than enough for Dembele, but it's time we stopped equating valuation with the ability of a player. It's just doesn't work that simply anymore.
Think of it like this, he's full of potential, has 4 years left on his contract but most importantly - Barca are desperate. They just lost their second biggest asset, and the one who was going to lead the team in the future. They need to replace him, but are left with few options. It's late in the window so Dortmund would be foolish not to try and exploit Barca's desperation. There are not many viable alternatives to him. Even clubs like Liverpool adopt a similar stance regarding Coutinho's etc.
If Barca wait for Griezmann, then they risk going into the new season with only Messi and Suarez (which doesn't sound bad!) but they struggled at times even with the full trio last season. All they've done over the summer is weaken themselves. That doesn't bode well going up against the current Madrid side.
Think of it like this, he's full of potential, has 4 years left on his contract but most importantly - Barca are desperate. They just lost their second biggest asset, and the one who was going to lead the team in the future. They need to replace him, but are left with few options. It's late in the window so Dortmund would be foolish not to try and exploit Barca's desperation. There are not many viable alternatives to him. Even clubs like Liverpool adopt a similar stance regarding Coutinho's etc.
If Barca wait for Griezmann, then they risk going into the new season with only Messi and Suarez (which doesn't sound bad!) but they struggled at times even with the full trio last season. All they've done over the summer is weaken themselves. That doesn't bode well going up against the current Madrid side.
If he was at Monaco right now, half of this forum would be crying out for him.
If he had the first season he had here at Monaco instead, and then moved to Madrid, everyone would be furious and absolutely convinced he is the best thing since sliced bread.
I quoted Devil may care, then you quoted me and made a comparison between Martial and Rashford. You said that Rashford and Martial weren't in the same bracket and that it was ridiculous to think otherwise. I answered that you had no idea about how they would develop which is true and that I haven't made such a claim myself anyway.
Martial will never win Ballon D'Or unless he starts to put numbers of the same level Messi and Ronaldo which is unrealistic, so to some extent he's right.
I find the " Ballon D'Or potential " phrase used to describe any player is nonsense with respect to those who said it, but to win such a prize you need to reach the same ceiling as Messi and Ronaldo, and when their career end the probably most probable potential to win the prize will be the likes of Neymar.
Using this phrase on any other player is overrating for me tbh. Hardly no other player except Messi, Ronaldo and Neymar strikes me as a Ballon D'Or player. Griezmann is an option after Neymar, but unlikely.
To win Ballon D'Or you need to be scoring +40 goals each season and winning league and CL. Who's the current player that does this ?
Martial is a very good potential but it's unrealistic to reach the same numbers as Messi and Ronaldo so definitely not a ballon D'Or potential.
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The thing with these young talent is that it's not always about their abilities but more about who's hotter at a specific moment.
Just over a year ago many were convinced that Dembele was way out of Mbappe league and by far the most talented French youngster coming up. Then you have Mbappe who's had a hot half season which propelled him to superstar dom and a we now hear a bunch of people act as if it's ridiculous to put Dembele in the same sentence as him.
Next summer things are likely to feel different with fans hoping onto the next hottest thing in that given moment.
The talents are there for all this kids given it's obvious but their ratings tend to get overrated or underrated depending on who is hottest at a given moment.
Just over a year ago many were convinced that Dembele was way out of Mbappe league and by far the most talented French youngster coming up. Then you have Mbappe who's had a hot half season which propelled him to superstar dom and a we now hear a bunch of people act as if it's ridiculous to put Dembele in the same sentence as him.
Next summer things are likely to feel different with fans hoping onto the next hottest thing in that given moment.
The talents are there for all this kids given it's obvious but their ratings tend to get overrated or underrated depending on who is hottest at a given moment.
How exactly is it ridiculous? The value of a player is determined by the seller, not the buyer. Dembele doesn't have a release clause and has a 4 year contract left. Dortmund have every right to ask how much ever they want for Dembele. If they feel he is worth €150m, well that's the price. It's not like they don't want to keep him. Besides his value will only increase in the coming years.
If Madrid come for DDG, we have every right to ask them for €100m. It doesn't matter whether anyone else think he's worth it or not.
Made the Neymar point because every club now knows that Barca have a lot of money to spend. I'm not saying Dembeke is worth that.
That's actually wrong, a year ago Mbappé was seen as the best youth player France had in a very long time while Dembélé was seen as the best 18 years to play in Ligue 1. Both were rated in the same bracket and it was believed that Mbappé could be even better than Dembélé who looked exceptional.
What has Dembele done so far tonight?
Well if Dortmund value him that high then I'd suggest they start paying their assets what they clearly think they're worth, you can't have it both ways.
Exactly this. They demand extortionate sums for their assets, but at the same time expect to pick them up for a pittance and pay them very low wages in the meanwhile.
If Barca paid 100m euros for Dembele that would be 8x on their investment in one year.
What part of 4 year contract don't you understand ? He wasn't forced to sign that. They don't want to sell him, so they can quote insane fees. End of. Kind of like Neymars clause with Barca, which didn't turn out so well for Barca.
Feck I went back to check and realised I wrongly quoted you
. My bad.I meant to quote @Nick7 who claimed that Rashford has shown a level above Martial at United.
No wonder this entire conversation felt confusing and coming a bit left field to me.
Sorry man that was my mistake
Feck I went back to check and realised I wrongly quoted you
I meant to quote @Nick7 who claimed that Rashford has shown a level above Martial at United.
No wonder this entire conversation felt confusing and coming a bit left field to me.
Sorry man that was my mistake
It's okay.
Is it ok to wish failure to all small time clubs who are ready to fleece United, some other club comes in for x player they want 20 million, United come in for a player , ok you are United pay us 200 million.
What part of player power don't you understand? You think his agent won't be working on a big new contract for him? And if Dortmund don't fancy paying what he's worth then he'll be kicking up a fuss, and he'll not be there to see out his 4 year contract.
@SwansonsTache thank you! I have no problems with Dortmund demanding stupid money if they passed said money down to the player they value so highly.
Players and their agents are selling themselves short though...Why sign a five year contract without allowing yourself an out clause after year 2 or 3? At the same time, it allow the club to reassess the player and say right, you signed a 5 year contract but if in year 2 or 3 you've outperformed your current contract, we'll treble your wages. If a club wants you, then they'll need to pay X for the right to enter transfer negotiations. Then they have to pay X for the execution of the transfer and compensation of is losing the player. Then you're free to discuss personal terms with the new club.
If LequipeTV are right, Dortmund gave him a 10m signing fee.
Yes, you can. There's no obligation to increase a player's wages commensurate to that player's transfer value. Last May, we gave Rashford a contract extension and raise...to 25k per week. He earns a bit more than 1/4 of what Lingard earns, and yet it's pretty obvious which player is worth more in the transfer market. We're not about to go and quadruple Rashford's wages. Clubs like Spurs, Dortmund, etc. who are able to remain competitive with a more limited salary cap and transfer budget would fade away almost immediately if this was the case.
I don't understand what's wrong with at all. They don't "expect" to pick them up. They recruit players who they can purchase for transfer fees that are in alignment with the way they conduct business. This is how football clubs, especially ones that aren't obscenely loaded like us or funded by a fecking country like PSG, should operate.
Tbf you won't have to reach those numbers to win whenever Messi and Ronaldo retires. Just because they have put up crazy numbers doesn't mean that's you would need to replicate that to win in the future. If no one else scores more than 25 goals then you would really stand out if you scored 35. Or in other words, you "just" need to be better than everybody else for a year.
Goal scoring is far from everything as well, it's just become a very big factor now when the two most outstanding players in the world scores so many. I think a midfielder (Veratti, Pogba) has just as big chance of winning as anyone else if they produce the goods in the future.
I think your point makes sense and is true if you're talking about specific posters or those heavily invested in the French league.
I remember Mbappe's name being mentioned a few time as a talent along with Dembele but most of those talks on these bored were from people who watch the French league or French themselves(I'm assuming you're French, right?).
But if we want to go broader or just talk about forum like the Caf, people were all about Dembele given he'd already been a bit further advanced in his career compared to Mbappe and more know. Meaning to people on the Caf and such places he was hotter thus higher rating.
Fast forward a year later, Mbappe has a breakthrough year with a hot 6 months, he's become a hot prospect and people have correlated that to his talent in relation to his peers.
You can now read on these very boards statements claiming that Dembele isn't anywhere close to Mbappe talent wise and this is mostly due to the latter being the hottest thing right now.
His agent should have taught of that before he made his client sign such a long contract. Dortmund hold all the cards now. They clearly don't mind running down players contracts (Lewandowski), so good luck to Dembele and his agent.
Yeah, Dembele eats at a soup kitchen twice a day, poor sod.
I said scoring +40 goals each season and you say if a player scores 35 goals he outplayed the others so how's this different from what I said ? it's a very near number to what I mentioned. The fact is scoring 25-30 goals is now very normal to any top striker in any top team, so you need to score +40 goals to outplay all the others and this is unrealistic for many players that are mentioned as a Ballon D'Or. Messi and Ronaldo has changed the way to look at this prize than what it was before them. Trophies are clearly not enough to just win it anymore since Ronaldo won it in 2013 winning nothing but just scored a loads of goals. Ribbery has had a fantastic season and won a treble this year and didn't win it, it still goes on Ronaldo.
What Dortmund paid for Dembele is completely irrelevant, the only thing which counts now is how big of a compensation Dortmund want and whether or not clubs are willing to meet that price. As was already mentioned in the tweet (which half the posters apparently didn't bother to read aside from the quoted figure) is that clubs don't just look at potential fees in a vacuum, but also take into consideration how a sale would affect their upcoming season, what their options for a replacement would be at this point and how they expect players to develop and perform. €100m might have been enough if Barca came calling in April, but it's not enough now.
And there certainly is no moral obligation to lower your asking price just because you did some smart business beforehand. It's also not like anyone forced Rennes or Dembele (or any player) to sign the contracts. Whether or not the player is underpaid and whether or not it's in order to renegotiate is between the player and the club to decide, it's not like were getting news about Dembele complaining about his wages at this point.
This way of looking at things is completely wrong.
Messi and Ronaldo won't be playing forever and they are like 10 years older to Martial generation. Winning the ballon d'or is not about banging in a certain number of goals but rather being one of the best players.
If Messi or Ronaldo banged in less than 20 goals and we're still the best players around than they'd likely win more. And when they are gone the ballon d'or won't be cancelled until someone else bang in 50 goals a season, it'll simply go to the next or one of the best player at the time.
And saying that x player is ballon d'or potential doesn't mean they'll win it, it just says that they have ridiculous and huge potential which could or couldn't be fullfilled.
And Martial isn't your average run the mill talent or JUST a good talent. He's in that top bracket talent wise something people have simply decide to forget after 1 average season. There is a reason there was a clause about winning ballon d'or from Monaco. They saw it as many other people, that potential.
Martial himself is a golden boy winner and has had a terrific season playing for one of the biggest club in the world at the mere age of 19. Those are signs or huge potential and if nurtured properly, amazing things occur.
Well logically people rate players when they see them. A year ago, I had to convince people that Ounas wasn't even close to Mbappé and Lemar. Also at the same age Mbappé has proven more things than Dembélé, he has more games, more trophies and played at a higher level.
You don't need to heavily invested in French football to know how highly rated Mbappe always is.
He has pedigree coming out of de La Fontaine with destine to be greatness tag. It's well known for host of big clubs trying to persuade him to join before he settled for Monaco as route to breakthrough professional level. Outgrowing Monaco is harder than say Rennes.
For Dembele case it's more about a young player who make leap & bound growth at smaller club which he outgrew quickly. This means he needs another suitor soon, so it's more sensational for transfer news thus more coverage for the mass ( different than paying just little attention to the French football).
Well if that's the case then fair enough I stand corrected!
@liamp and that's why players end up leaving clubs like Dortmund and Spurs.
@LoneStar it's all well and good playing hardball with players but it'll end up biting them on their backsides, at the moment players see them as a stepping stone club, they get a good player for a few years then sell him for a massive profit, if they block that next move then other players will not be so keen to sign up.
Yes, they can't force players to stay. But they know Barca are desperate and they'll do everything they can to milk Barca for as much money as possible, which is totally fair.
I hardly said players can win it while Ronaldo and Messi are playing to say they won't play forever, but the fact is they were dominating it because of this ridiculous numbers which any player needs to win it later will need to replicate it to win such a prize. Do you expect the winner to be scoring 17-25 goals like any mediocre striker ? Definitely not, and no if Ronaldo and Messi numbers dropped heavily to less than 20 it won't mean they're the best players anymore.
Winning this prize isn't really that easy that people who keep saying "Ballon D'Or potential" make me believe it. You need to put crazy numbers and win major trophies with club or national team. Who is the current player who you say him capable of both things in the future ? The only 2 players who can fill this criteria after both Messi and Chris retire are Neymar and to less extent Griezmann.
And if saying he's Ballon D'Or potential doesn't mean he will win it so why saying it from start ? why just not saying he has a huge potential to be a great player only ?
I'm not downplaying Martial potential but saying Ballon D'Or potential on any young player for me is overrating. I said exactly the same thing on B.Silva when one said the same phrase on him and he nearly replayed like you as well. This prize needs special requirements to be won so saying any young player is a potential for it is nonsense, sorry.
Agree, but saying €100m is very very low is pretty stupid as it's be one of the highest transfer fees ever.
Dortmund is not some village club. If you are a young talent, and want to get regular game time at a high level, you'll have to accept their terms. If that's not ok, they'll have to settle for smaller clubs or go benchwarming for one of the giants, who might loan you out to another village club after a year of benchwarming.
But we are not talking about a few years here and Barcelona didn't came early. If you want a discount come early and allow the selling club to make solid plans, otherwise you will have to pay some extra because Dortmund are taking a big risk.
What are you talking about village clubs? Didn't I say they were some tier 2 club? No, I said they were a stepping stone club, which they quite obviously are.
From what I remember a lot of clubs did come early, and €100m is a massive return on the little invest Dortmund made.
He just assisted Auba in the super cup. Good vision/timing to slide the ball for Auba for the finish.
They are big enough to not have a talent dictate the terms of engagement.
Every club has to bow to player power, you've just witnessed it with Barca, we had to sell Ronaldo, it's just the way it is.
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