Our Defence - Has it actually been fixed?

All this talk of how we lined up with 5 at the back, of how negative and defensive we were - but we had 12 shots to magic Pep's wonder attackers 7 today.

There was one team putting attacking football together today, and they were wearing red.
 
I'm sorry i think Maguire and Lindeolf are a horrible pairing. They dont compliment each other at all.
 
Maguire was poor for the goal, but Lindelof is one of the worst starting centre backs we've had in a very very long time. Scared little shaky rabbit who could make any defender unfortunate enough to be partnering him look bad. Smalling is and always has been miles better than him.
 
Bailley if he can stay fit should play before Lidelof, or play 3 at the back like we have done at times.
 
Been moaning about this for months, they can’t seem to hold a straight line when being attacked specially on the counter and do not understand that if one steps up they all need to step up which comes down to communication and ultimately training. When being countered with runners availabe it’s even worse to watch
 
BR7 said:
Been moaning about this for months, they can’t seem to hold a straight line when being attacked specially on the counter and do not understand that if one steps up they all need to step up which comes down to communication and ultimately training. When being countered with runners availabe it’s even worse to watch
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There was a point after we’d conceded & Maguire stepped up for the offside trap but AWB & Lindelof didn’t that I found infuriating.

Week after week we see a £200mil defence look clueless, it’s really annoying.
 
AFC NimbleThumb said:
There was a point after we’d conceded & Maguire stepped up for the offside trap but AWB & Lindelof didn’t that I found infuriating.

Week after week we see a £200mil defence look clueless, it’s really annoying.
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Do we? 3 goals conceded in 12 games and all 3 are keeper howlers?
 
I think we've looked okay with the 532 defensively most times we have played it. Not a fan of the 4 at the back with our options though. Lack of pace at CB and a clear lack of aerial ability. Shaw, AWB n Lindelof beaten in the air far too easily.
I don't think we have a defence that can win the PL or CL.

Shaw and AWB can defend but are very ordinary on the ball and that's being kind to them.

Maguire is probably our best still but is far too slow.

Lindelof..... Not sure what he does tbh. Isn't quick and can't win headers. Smalling better in both aspects. And his ability on the ball is grossly over rated. When does he ever ping great balls to our forwards? Can't remember any.

And the keeper is having a nightmare. Needs replacing.
 
cyberman said:
Do we? 3 goals conceded in 12 games and all 3 are keeper howlers?
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There’s a reason why after conceding 3 in 12 we’re in 5th place in the league & have been dumped out of a cup competition, we’ve been as much good as bad when you view the season in its entirety.

Let’s extend it to 14 games & its 7 in 14; there’s no point looking at a favourable group of games to aid your point - that £200mil defence has underwhelmed this season. We’ve conceded 1 less than Crystal Palace & 6 more than Sheffield United this season.

I’d blame Maguire as much as DDG for last night, when I talk about the defence I’m including the GK as I see it as a unit. Every team concedes goals, but good defences don’t concede goals like last night; Shaw, Maguire & DDG all conspired to have a mare.

There has been an improvement in the last 12 games though, agreed.
 
AFC NimbleThumb said:
There’s a reason why after conceding 3 in 12 we’re in 5th place in the league & have been dumped out of a cup competition, we’ve been as much good as bad when you view the season in its entirety.

Let’s extend it to 14 games & its 7 in 14; there’s no point looking at a favourable group of games to aid your point - that £200mil defence has underwhelmed this season. We’ve conceded 1 less than Crystal Palace & 6 more than Sheffield United this season.

I’d blame Maguire as much as DDG for last night, when I talk about the defence I’m including the GK as I see it as a unit. Every team concedes goals, but good defences don’t concede goals like last night; Shaw, Maguire & DDG all conspired to have a mare.

There has been an improvement in the last 12 games though, agreed.
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Its not a favoutable run of results though, its our current form and clear evolution of our defensive structure.
You cant say why cant we do better? When we actually are doing better.
 
Defending is a team effort. Yes players will make mistakes but we are largely fine.
I still think our fullbacks are crap at attacking.
 
Absolutely daft to be judging anything on last night rather than the defences form pre-virus. Preparations for this set of matches has been farcical compared to usual preseason approach.
 
cyberman said:
Its not a favoutable run of results though, its our current form and clear evolution of our defensive structure.
You cant say why cant we do better? When we actually are doing better.
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It is though, cause why focus on 12 instead of 14? In fact we’ve had 3 months off so let’s focus simply on last night in that case.

The evolution of our defensive structure is an LB that can’t head a ball, an £80mil CB that turns like a ship at anchor & a GK who’s regressed immeasurably.

Chelsea & City clean sheets show promise but don’t come the 13 games when LASK & Tranmere are in there and if we look at just 14 games ago Burnley made this defence look bang average or is that not current enough.

This is not a title challenging defence. Yes it’s better than what we had but improving on the chuckle brothers shouldn’t have you lauded as such. The progress is relative.
 
Judas said:
Maguire was poor for the goal, but Lindelof is one of the worst starting centre backs we've had in a very very long time. Scared little shaky rabbit who could make any defender unfortunate enough to be partnering him look bad. Smalling is and always has been miles better than him.
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Totally agree.
I mean who would you rather play against? Can’t see premier league strikers worried about taking on Lindelof... and yeah I can’t see how he and Maguire compliment each other at all. For me it’s elementary- which is worrying. We so should have won that game, and it’s criminal to concede the first goal with a line up which didn’t look like it had a plan B.
As for Pogba not starting ...
 
It’s weird as if you look at it just by statistics then it’s very good. Watching it though they make lots of errors. Not costly errors but it just doesn’t fill me with confidence.

Its mostly Maguires positioning that bugs me. Lindelof ain’t good enough or fast enough to cover the Maguire lapses so Shaw ends up bailing him out. Bissaka has been caught a few times ball watching as well.
Still work to do there in my eyes but hopefully they can sort it out amongst themselves.
 
Class of 63 said:
No we still need an upgrade on Lindelof and Shaw, but managing to get and keep on the pitch a settled back-four helps with understanding which leads to less mistakes, but then we already knew that.
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I do not get this agenda against Lindelof and Shaw. What have they done wrong ?
 
romufc said:
I do not get this agenda against Lindelof and Shaw. What have they done wrong ?
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It's not an agenda I think. Because I have the same thought and I like them both. Both are decent, but not good enough imo.

Lindelof is weak and not good in the air. Shaw is pretty slow and a poor crosser.

And most importantly, I don't think both would get any better.
 
Strelok said:
It's not an agenda I think. Because I have the same thought and I like them both. Both are decent, but not good enough imo.

Lindelof is weak and not good in the air. Shaw is pretty slow and a poor crosser.

And most importantly, I don't think both would get any better.
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Shaw is not slow in any shape or form.

I remember someone said Smalling was slow once, and you really do wonder if people even watch our players.

I'm not sure if this Shaw thing comes from Lukaku leaking those speed tests that time when Shaw didn't show up too well. But he was either semi injured, unfit, or not trying to go flat out - i forget which, but it was a totally unfair test.
 
Strelok said:
It's not an agenda I think. Because I have the same thought and I like them both. Both are decent, but not good enough imo.

Lindelof is weak and not good in the air. Shaw is pretty slow and a poor crosser.

And most importantly, I don't think both would get any better.
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They are both decent, Lindelof lacks pace but he has been pretty solid otherwise.

Shaw is actually quicker than most people think, he managed to keep up with Lampty against Brighton who was their quickest player.

Shaw will show his qualities with run of games. He comes across as a poor crosser because we have 1 player in the box usually.
 
romufc said:
I do not get this agenda against Lindelof and Shaw. What have they done wrong ?
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I get the Lindelof on totally. He's just average in every attribute, and shouldn't be a Man Utd level starter.
But Shaw, i think he's certainly solid enough, and not one we need to worry about upgrading now he's actually keeping his fitness for the first time in a long time.
 
Sandikan said:
Shaw is not slow in any shape or form.

I remember someone said Smalling was slow once, and you really do wonder if people even watch our players.

I'm not sure if this Shaw thing comes from Lukaku leaking those speed tests that time when Shaw didn't show up too well. But he was either semi injured, unfit, or not trying to go flat out - i forget which, but it was a totally unfair test.
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romufc said:
They are both decent, Lindelof lacks pace but he has been pretty solid otherwise.

Shaw is actually quicker than most people think, he managed to keep up with Lampty against Brighton who was their quickest player.

Shaw will show his qualities with run of games. He comes across as a poor crosser because we have 1 player in the box usually.
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I forgot to mention in my post that Shaw is pretty slow for a FB not a player in general.

It's hard to debate whether a player is good enough or not because that "good enough" is up to each one and we're different. But imo Shaw is not even a half or what Evra was.

And Lindelof doesn't lack pace. He's actually quite fast for a CB imo. He's only a bit weak and not good in the air.
 
Strelok said:
I forgot to mention in my post that Shaw is pretty slow for a FB not a player in general.

It's hard to debate whether a player is good enough or not because that "good enough" is up to each one and we're different. But imo Shaw is not even a half or what Evra was.
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He's not even pretty slow for a full back though.
 
The first choice back four is really stable, not remarkable but gets the job done.

Shaw -- Maguire -- Lindelof -- AWB​

The second choices though.. needs upgrade or better challengers to the first choices.

Williams -- Jones/Tuanzebe/Bailly -- Dalot​
​
Overall,
Starters
Tier 1: Maguire (I mean, there isn't much choice really, not many top CBs nowadays)​
Tier 2: AWB (much better attacking quality is the only limiting factor here)​
Tier 3: Shaw (he's good but we know what the problems are)​

Squad players
Tier 1: Lindelof (he's a damn good 2nd-choice or squad player, can be upgraded easily)​
Tier 2:​
Tier 3: Williams (top mentality and character, but limited abilities)​

Difficult to put where Bailly, Jones and Tuanzebe considering their fitness tendencies. If they're fit, would put all on Tier 2. Dalot also performed like.. idk, no harsh comments, possibly Tier 3 because of purely his more natural attacking talents.

TLDR/
Only the first choice back 4 is "fixed".
 
Strelok said:
I forgot to mention in my post that Shaw is pretty slow for a FB not a player in general.

It's hard to debate whether a player is good enough or not because that "good enough" is up to each one and we're different. But imo Shaw is not even a half or what Evra was.

And Lindelof doesn't lack pace. He's actually quite fast for a CB imo. He's only a bit weak and not good in the air.
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As in, I can agree that to win the league we will need an upgrade on Lindelof.

With Shaw, a bit of confidence and he can be a threat going forward and defensively we know he is pretty good.
 
Strelok said:
I forgot to mention in my post that Shaw is pretty slow for a FB not a player in general.

It's hard to debate whether a player is good enough or not because that "good enough" is up to each one and we're different. But imo Shaw is not even a half or what Evra was.

And Lindelof doesn't lack pace. He's actually quite fast for a CB imo. He's only a bit weak and not good in the air.
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i think shaw's stocky frame has you fooled. dude is pretty quick. even for a fb
 
We will likely finish the league 2nd for fewest goals allowed and people are talking about how this defense isn't good enough to win the league. Defense hasn't been our problem. Offense has been. But that seems to be looking a lot better since Bruno signed. Since Bruno's signing we are 9 wins and 4 draws (all comps) with 31 goals for...
 
romufc said:
As in, I can agree that to win the league we will need an upgrade on Lindelof.

With Shaw, a bit of confidence and he can be a threat going forward and defensively we know he is pretty good.
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What he seems to struggle with is his positioning, movement and passing decisions in the build-up play and his time on the ball and crossing in the final third. The issues in the build-up might be down to lack of clear roles and passing patterns as a function of OGS relying on the players own understanding in this area, but it has not improved since he was signed. The same goes for his crossing.

Defensively he is good enough but given his lack of ability and contribution in the final third, his overall contribution to the team is not good.
 
romufc said:
As in, I can agree that to win the league we will need an upgrade on Lindelof.

With Shaw, a bit of confidence and he can be a threat going forward and defensively we know he is pretty good.
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Well Shaw is already pretty good. I didn't say he is not a good player. He's a decent player.
 
Strelok said:
I forgot to mention in my post that Shaw is pretty slow for a FB not a player in general.

It's hard to debate whether a player is good enough or not because that "good enough" is up to each one and we're different. But imo Shaw is not even a half or what Evra was.

And Lindelof doesn't lack pace. He's actually quite fast for a CB imo. He's only a bit weak and not good in the air.
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Mate this is ridiculous. Shaw is one of the fastest players in the squad. There is a reason Rashford, James, McT and that mention him. They’ve all had interviews where they are asked who is the fastest and they say they don’t really know. Tubes has even said to Shaw in an interview enough debates why don’t they just line up and find out and Shaw says they can’t as imagine the fall out if they got injured doing that.

The stats Lukaku showed was when Shaw was returning from his Hamstring injury and was told to go 50%. How anyone can watch our games and say he is slow is beyond me. He’s rapid. Has to be to make up for Maguire mistakes.

Personally I think Shaw is our best defender. Bissaka is great at one thing, probably the best in the world at that one thing but Shaw reads play better, is better positionally, is better at stopping danger, is good in the air, has the strength and speed to go along with it as well.

Then take in to count his touch and passing ability and the ever improving aggressiveness to get forward and deliver balls in and he is one hell of a player. Also instrumental in the little left hand side patterns he, Martial Rashford Pogba and Matic play freeing up space on the right. The boy can play football.

I think some people are just obsessed with one dimensional winger types as Fullbacks when Shaw is an all round better footballer/defender than most of them.
 
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AFC NimbleThumb said:
an LB that can’t head a ball
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Imagine that. A left back who can't HEAD a ball. How can the mighty United employ a left back lacking the most essential skill for playing in that possition?
Andersons Dietician said:
Mate this is ridiculous. Shaw is one of the fastest players in the squad. There is a reason Rashford, James, McT and that mention him. They’ve all had interviews where they are asked who is the fastest and they say they don’t really know. Tubes has even said to Shaw in an interview enough debates why don’t they just line up and find out and Shaw says they can’t as imagine the fall out if they got injured doing that.

The stats Lukaku showed was when Shaw was returning from his Hamstring injury and was told to go 50%. How anyone can watch our games and say he is slow is beyond me. He’s rapid. Has to be to make up for Maguire mistakes.

Personally I think Shaw is our best defender. Bissaka is great at one thing, probably the best in the world at that one thing but Shaw reads play better, is better positionally, is better at stopping danger, is good in the air, has the strength and speed to go along with it as well.

Then take in to count his touch and passing ability and the ever improving aggressiveness to get forward and deliver balls in and he is one hell of a player. Also instrumental in the little left hand side patterns he, Martial Rashford Pogba and Matic play freeing up space on the right. The boy can play football.

I think some people are just obsessed with one dimensional winger types as Fullbacks when Shaw is an all round better footballer/defender than most of them.
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Hear, hear.
 
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