Our Defence - Has it actually been fixed?

Andersons Dietician said:
Mate this is ridiculous. Shaw is one of the fastest players in the squad. There is a reason Rashford, James, McT and that mention him. They’ve all had interviews where they are asked who is the fastest and they say they don’t really know. Tubes has even said to Shaw in an interview enough debates why don’t they just line up and find out and Shaw says they can’t as imagine the fall out if they got injured doing that.

The stats Lukaku showed was when Shaw was returning from his Hamstring injury and was told to go 50%. How anyone can watch our games and say he is slow is beyond me. He’s rapid. Has to be to make up for Maguire mistakes.
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https://www.sportbible.com/football...in-manchester-uniteds-squad-20190803.amp.html

I don't buy the 50-70 % stuffs. Why a max speed test after an hamstring injury ?

Shaw was once one of the fastest FB in the world. He has unfortunately lost it after breaking his leg I think. What a waste.
And "make up for Maguire mistake":


Look at him run around 3:15.
 
Strelok said:
https://www.sportbible.com/football...in-manchester-uniteds-squad-20190803.amp.html

I don't buy the 50-70 % stuffs. Why a max speed test after an hamstring injury ?

Shaw was once one of the fastest FB in the world. He has unfortunately lost it after breaking his leg I think. What a waste.
And "make up for Maguire mistake":


Look at him run around 3:15.
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Dude if you look in to the time line of when Lukaku posted that you would see it was when Shaw was returning from the hamstring injury. Shaw even says in reply to Lukaku he was told to go 50% and don’t make him get out the other tests.
Its still fitness after all and testing out how a recovery is going. Don’t know if you’ve ever pulled a hamstring but they are a pain in the ass.

If you also look through out the season you’ll find more occasions of Shaw bailing out Maguire than Maguire hailing out Shaw. Heck Shaw bailed him out twice in the last game. Pretty sure he bailed him out in the Norwich game and there have been big moments where Maguire and Lindelof fecked up and Shaw has come steaming across to fix their mistake. Sure one was against Chelsea where Maguire goes out of position and falls over and Shaw just manages to get across to stop a free shot on goal.

So yes Shaw bails out Maguire a lot.

Wolves and Watford were other big Maguire mistakes that Shaw saved his ass in.
 
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ReddBalls said:
"Sportbible" :lol:

It's already been debunked.
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Link please ?

Tbh I did not find Shaw slow because of the article. But watching him. I googled Shaw max speed and this is the first thing I stumbled upon.

Maybe I'm wrong since so many here find him fast? But tbh whenever I watch him running I always find him pretty slow for a FB. I can't remember the last time he beat someone thanks to his pace for the last two years.
 
Strelok said:
Link please ?

Tbh I did not find Shaw slow because of the article. But watching him. I googled Shaw max speed and this is the first thing I stumbled upon.

Maybe I'm wrong since so many here find him fast? But tbh whenever I watch him running I always find him pretty slow for a FB. I can't remember the last time he beat someone thanks to his pace for the last two years.
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He just clawed back Puki like a week ago when he had a 10-20 yard head start on him. He made mince meat out of Salah last season and he more than matched Traore stride for stride this season. In the last few games he’s also beaten people on the outside with his pace so he clearly is fast.

The one thing I will say is maybe he doesn’t use his pace enough In an attacking sense. He’s tends to want to pass and create something than just receive the ball and say let’s go. I do get annoyed at him when quite often Maguire receives the ball and he pops it off to Shaw and I’m thinking Shaw should be 5-10 yards further forward than he is but maybe that’s a hangover from Jose.

Anyway point is he is still very fast and he shows it in lots of games.
 
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Strelok said:
Link please ?

Tbh I did not find Shaw slow because of the article. But watching him. I googled Shaw max speed and this is the first thing I stumbled upon.

Maybe I'm wrong since so many here find him fast? But tbh whenever I watch him running I always find him pretty slow for a FB. I can't remember the last time he beat someone thanks to his pace for the last two years.
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Equally shite source as yours. Took me the time it takes to type "luke shaw top speed" into Google.

https://talksport.com/football/581885/romelu-lukaku-manchester-united-luke-shaw/
 
Andersons Dietician said:
Dude if you look in to the time line of when Lukaku posted that you would see it was when Shaw was returning from the hamstring injury. Shaw even says in reply to Lukaku he was told to go 50% and don’t make him get out the other tests.
Its still fitness after all and testing out how a recovery is going. Don’t know if you’ve ever pulled a hamstring but they are a pain in the ass.

If you also look through out the season you’ll find more occasions of Shaw bailing out Maguire than Maguire hailing out Shaw. Heck Shaw bailed him out twice in the last game. Pretty sure he bailed him out in the Norwich game and there have been big moments where Maguire and Lindelof fecked up and Shaw has come steaming across to fix their mistake. Sure one was against Chelsea where Maguire goes out of position and falls over and Shaw just manages to get across to stop a free shot on goal.

So yes Shaw bails out Maguire a lot.
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I don't buy the hamstring thing.

I looked up Shaw's injury history and it says he had a hamstring from Aug 24 2019 to Oct 7 2019. And this article was from Aug 03 2019.
https://www.transfermarkt.com/luke-shaw/verletzungen/spieler/183288

Anyway, I can't believe he's as slow as Mata.

Andersons Dietician said:
He just clawed back Puki like a week ago when he had a 10-20 yard head start on him. He made mince meat out of Salah last season and he more than matched Traore stride for stride this season. In the last few games he’s also beaten people on the outside with his pace so he clearly is fast.
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A defender usually take position behind an attacker so they have a big advantage. It's more a matter of positioning and experience rather than raw pace. Williams is fast but he got skinned by Traore for example.

Let me continue to google. I can't find his 2020 max speed anywhere yet.
 
Strelok said:
Link please ?

Tbh I did not find Shaw slow because of the article. But watching him. I googled Shaw max speed and this is the first thing I stumbled upon.

Maybe I'm wrong since so many here find him fast? But tbh whenever I watch him running I always find him pretty slow for a FB. I can't remember the last time he beat someone thanks to his pace for the last two years.
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He doesn't use his speed offensively as much as he could. But defensively he shows it fairly often.
 
Strelok said:
Your article basically says exactly the same as my source. What is the difference?
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“They only wanted me to go 70 per cent don’t let me start speaking on you boy.”

Besides, anyone with eyes who watches United regularly knows he's fast as feck.
 
ReddBalls said:
“They only wanted me to go 70 per cent don’t let me start speaking on you boy.”

Besides, anyone with eyes who watches United regularly knows he's fast as feck.
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This is the hamstring stuff we talked about above.
 
Strelok said:
This is the hamstring stuff we talked about above.
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I havde no idea if it was the hamstring, but why would you believe a stat that shows he's slower than fecking Mata?

And again: Anyone with eyes actually watching the games knows he's fast.
 
Still unsure about Lindelof. We'd mount a credible title shot next season with just the one signing, that being a top CB.

Koulibaly?
 
ReddBalls said:
I havde no idea if it was the hamstring, but why would you believe a stat that shows he's slower than fecking Mata?

And again: Anyone with eyes actually watching the games knows he's fast.
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I can't believe it either but that's what the test showed. And numbers don't lie you know.

And I just watched the clip, it says the test was taken on July 10 2019. So the 70 % because of his hamstring injury must be bollock. Shaw was injury free when the test was taken.
 
Can't help you any fuirther b
Strelok said:
I can't believe it either but that's what the test showed. And numbers don't lie you know.

And I just watched the clip, it says the test was taken on July 10 2019. So the 70 % because of his hamstring injury must be bollock. Shaw was injury free when the test was taken.
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Can't help you any further bro. Use your eyes. Start watching games. Good luck!
 
ReddBalls said:
Can't help you any fuirther b


Can't help you any further bro. Use your eyes. Start watching games. Good luck!
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I watched all our games for the last 25 years. And I have really good eyes. Don't worry.
 
You'd have to say our defence is doing well. We are passing the ball out much better from the back. We don’t crap the bed when teams press anymore. Matic provides a good out ball when needed. Maguire has been very good. Lindelof is decent if still a little flimsy and reactionary, I think I just don’t really fully appreciate his style of defending but it’s effective. AWB had started adding assists and penetration (and usually by himself on that side) since before the lockdown and he’s obviously an unreal defender one on one. Shaw has been getting back into the swing of things and has been pretty good in the second half of the season. He just needs to keep trying things in the attacking side of his game. You get the feeling it’s mostly a mental thing with him a lot of the time as the ability is there to take on players get into the box and cut back, play one twos or cross from deep. One of our full backs and matic usually cover for Bruno and Pogba to get forward so we don’t need both going fully forward on every attack anyway. Our defence is second best in the league. Even when we’ve played badly over the post Fergie years we haven’t shipped many goals but we didn’t help our attackers much either. The onus has to be on our attack to do that bit more so that conceding a goal doesn’t automatically mean we are going to struggle to claw back a draw or end up losing. We’ve had too many low scoring draws this season. Signs are good we are now improving as a unit though.
 
Strelok said:
I don't buy the hamstring thing.

I looked up Shaw's injury history and it says he had a hamstring from Aug 24 2019 to Oct 7 2019. And this article was from Aug 03 2019.
https://www.transfermarkt.com/luke-shaw/verletzungen/spieler/183288

Anyway, I can't believe he's as slow as Mata.



A defender usually take position behind an attacker so they have a big advantage. It's more a matter of positioning and experience rather than raw pace. Williams is fast but he got skinned by Traore for example.

Let me continue to google. I can't find his 2020 max speed anywhere yet.
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Yes because the initial first Hamstring injury was in pre season. If you recall he pulled up in a game because of this and was pulled off. Then I think he came back in pre season for a game and then did his hamstring properly did he not. Can’t remember what one. They did the speed tests during pre season Inbetween him coming off as a precaution and the big hamstring injury hence why he went 70% It’s what happens with Hamstrings as you never really know if they are fully healed till you test them out. You might feel fine but the first proper sprint and it goes. I’ve been there more than once.


Really this shouldn’t even be a discussion. You just have to watch games for when he breaks in to a sprint. If Rashford, Lukaku, Lingard, James mention him as in the mix then it’s fare to say they do this because they believe He can compete with them. He’s rapid.
 
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Andersons Dietician said:
Yes because the initial first Hamstring injury was in pre season. If you recall he pulled up in a game because of this and was pulled off. Then I think he came back in pre season for a game and then did his hamstring properly did he not. Can’t remember what one. They did the speed tests during pre season Inbetween him coming off as a precaution and the big hamstring injury hence why he went 70% It’s what happens with Hamstrings as you never really know if they are fully healed till you test them out. You might feel fine but the first proper sprint and it goes. I’ve been there more than once.


Really this shouldn’t even be a discussion. You just have to watch games for when he breaks in to a sprint. If Rashford, Lukaku, Lingard, James mention him as in the mix then it’s fare to say they do this because they believe He can compete with them. He’s rapid.
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You're actually right about that. Shaw was taken off for precaution in the game against Perth Glory in 13 July 2019:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/foot...n-utd-injury-scare-hamstring-perth-glory/amp/

However the test was taken on 10 July 2019. I don't buy the 70 % stuff because if you can't run at your full speed, what's the point of taking the max speed test ? Especially considering the risks if the player is in danger of a hamstring injury. And I don't buy Shaw being as slow as Mata either. That's just ridiculous if true.

Anyway it's not the max speed that counts in football. It's actually the acceleration that matters. The first few yards makes the difference. For example Messi top speed has been recorded is just a meh 32.5 kmh:
https://the18.com/news/how-fast-messi?amp

Maybe I'm wrong about Shaw being pretty slow for a FB, maybe I'm right I just can't find anything that definitely prove either is true. Seem clubs are a bit taboo in talking about this. Ole had immediately talked to Lukaku after that incident and his tweet was deleted. I just can't find anything concrete. We'd better leave this here I think.
 
Strelok said:
You're actually right about that. Shaw was taken off for precaution in the game against Perth Glory in 13 July 2019:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/foot...n-utd-injury-scare-hamstring-perth-glory/amp/

However the test was taken on 10 July 2019. I don't buy the 70 % stuff because if you can't run at your full speed, what's the point of taking the max speed test ? Especially considering the risks if the player is in danger of a hamstring injury. And I don't buy Shaw being as slow as Mata either. That's just ridiculous if true.

Anyway it's not the max speed that counts in football. It's actually the acceleration that matters. The first few yards makes the difference. For example Messi top speed has been recorded is just a meh 32.5 kmh:
https://the18.com/news/how-fast-messi?amp

Maybe I'm wrong about Shaw being pretty slow for a FB, maybe I'm right I just can't find anything that definitely prove either is true. Seem clubs are a bit taboo in talking about this. Ole had immediately talked to Lukaku after that incident and his tweet was deleted. I just can't find anything concrete. We'd better leave this here I think.
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Just admit that you're biased against Shaw.

You're the only one who insists that he's slow for a fullback despite his performances and teammates proving otherwise.
 
We have the second best defense in the league with only 6 goals away from the best, i'd say we have fixed it yes. Lindelof, Shaw and DDG are wildly under rated on here. A top DM or a Matic in the form he is now for the majority of the season and we have a case for the best defense.
 
elmo said:
Just admit that you're biased against Shaw.

You're the only one who insists that he's slow for a fullback despite his performances and teammates proving otherwise.
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No I'm not biased against him. If you read my post for example like this you'd see I actually like him.

There was a time half of the caf called for his head but I still trusted him. He's a decent LB.

Strelok said:
Wasn't SAF a striker ?

For me the progress under Ole is really simple to see.

At the moment Jose was about to got sacked I only want to keep the following players at Utd: DDG, Martial, Rashford, Shaw (yes Shaw), Pogba, Matic (yes Matic), Herrera. Which mean 7/11 of the first XI and with Romero, McT, Smalling, Dalot as backups so 11/25 of our whole squad.
Edit: I forgot at that time Jose rarely play both Rashford or Martial together so only 6/11 of the first XI imo. And Young was playing most of the time so 5/11 tbf.

Now I want to keep: DDG, Martial, Rashford, Shaw (yes Shaw), Pogba, Maguire, AWB, McT. That means 8/11 of the first XI and James, Fred, Romero, Lindelof, Greenwood, Tuanzebe, Williams, Smalling, Dalot as backups so 17/25 of our whole squad.

Isn't that clear progress?
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I'm not biased against Shaw at all. I just say what I think or find. I have a group of friends who support different teams and we usually watch football and drink together. We all agreed that Shaw is a bit slow for a FB. It's actually quite a surprise for me that the caf find him fast.
 
elmo said:
Just admit that you're biased against Shaw.

You're the only one who insists that he's slow for a fullback despite his performances and teammates proving otherwise.
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Wasn't Lukaku leak that showed Shaw as the slowest (in training)??
 
Strelok said:
No I'm not biased against him. If you read my post for example like this you'd see I actually like him.

There was a time half of the caf called for his head but I still trusted him. He's a decent LB.



I'm not biased against Shaw at all. I just say what I think or find. I have a group of friends who support different teams and we usually watch football and drink together. We all agreed that Shaw is a bit slow for a FB. It's actually quite a surprise for me that the caf find him fast.
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You and your friends must be drunk when you're watching games.

There's a reason why he's hardly ever beaten on pace, and it's not because he's facing against slow players.
 
By no means at all.
We need a quick CB to compliment Maguire and Maguire to learn how to turn his body
We also need to test Williams at LB as a permanent solution, instead of Shaw who never will be good enough for a top class United team
 
It has definitely been fixed. Statistics are clear on this.
We have a settled back 4 now and that is the main thing, after all that time of mixing it practically every game. Maguire and Lindelof work good as a pair and when it's their day they look unbeatable. Sure Maguire in wide spaces can be exposed but that happened when the whole structure falls apart, someone is late and he gets exposed or of course if he makes a mistake. But his reading of the game is excellent so that doesnt happen much. Lindelof is a elegant defender who is also good at reading the game. Still think he should be a bit stronger and more determined with headers. Wan Bissaka's defending is fantastic and everybody knows that but his offensive game has been getting better and better. I think lots of bad playing was due to him not being brave and confident enough plus of course work in training which is obvious. Shaw has been in fine form for months now and what I like he's really involved a lot in our offensive play and playmaking in genera.

What is really good about our defense too is that they dont kick the ball out panickally when under pressure but always trying to pass it out from the defense, kicking the ball is the last option. Generally our technical play and passing has improved massively.

Problem might be with the backup. Bailly is mostly good but I'm still unsure abut him and his brainfart moments, not to mention his strange technique of heading the ball. Jones is still at the club.. Tuanzebe, what's happening with him. Williams is a good prospect and I dont think Dalot is gonna make it at United.
 
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elmo said:
You and your friends must be drunk when you're watching games.

There's a reason why he's hardly ever beaten on pace, and it's not because he's facing against slow players.
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Yeah we're drunk but not that drunk :wenger:

As I said in defence it's rather a matter of positioning and experience than raw pace. And you can see Shaw hasn't tried to knock the ball past an opponent for ages. That's a move we usually see fast FBs do, like you can see with AWB or old Valencia for example.

Anyway, better drop this here and back to topic guys.
 
Strelok said:
Yeah we're drunk but not that drunk :wenger:

As I said in defence it's rather a matter of positioning and experience than raw pace. And you can see Shaw hasn't tried to knock the ball past an opponent for ages. That's a move we usually see fast FBs do, like you can see with AWB or old Valencia for example.

Anyway, better drop this here and back to topic guys.
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Just watch the Chelsea game highlights, he did it frequently in the games against them.
 
Liverpool have conceded 19 goals from open play, we have conceded 20 goals from open play.

We should really work on set piece attacking and defending.
 
elmo said:
Just watch the Chelsea game highlights, he did it frequently in the games against them.
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Sure, could you tell me which one please ? We meet them a few times this season you know.
 
roonster09 said:
Liverpool have conceded 19 goals from open play, we have conceded 20 goals from open play.
Click to expand...

Several of those have been huge howlers from de Gea - to an extent they may be ignored when talking about quality of our defence line. When a GK kicks the ball out, it hits the forward and deflects in our goal, the stats become worse
 
Strelok said:
You're actually right about that. Shaw was taken off for precaution in the game against Perth Glory in 13 July 2019:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/foot...n-utd-injury-scare-hamstring-perth-glory/amp/

However the test was taken on 10 July 2019. I don't buy the 70 % stuff because if you can't run at your full speed, what's the point of taking the max speed test ? Especially considering the risks if the player is in danger of a hamstring injury. And I don't buy Shaw being as slow as Mata either. That's just ridiculous if true.

Anyway it's not the max speed that counts in football. It's actually the acceleration that matters. The first few yards makes the difference. For example Messi top speed has been recorded is just a meh 32.5 kmh:
https://the18.com/news/how-fast-messi?amp

Maybe I'm wrong about Shaw being pretty slow for a FB, maybe I'm right I just can't find anything that definitely prove either is true. Seem clubs are a bit taboo in talking about this. Ole had immediately talked to Lukaku after that incident and his tweet was deleted. I just can't find anything concrete. We'd better leave this here I think.
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The one against Perth Glory was the big one though wasn’t it. He had pulled up in an earlier game in pre season with a tight hamstring and they decided to rest him. They were concerned about a hamstring injury hence why asking him not to go full pelt. You would still want to test an injury without pushing it too far and my guess would be a speed test at 70%.

This is a mute point anyway because like I’ve said all you have to do is watch our games to see that he isn’t just fast for a FB but fast for a player full stop. Even the most committed Shaw haters from his performance thread would agree he is fast when he wants to be.
 
Andersons Dietician said:
The one against Perth Glory was the big one though wasn’t it. He had pulled up in an earlier game in pre season with a tight hamstring and they decided to rest him. They were concerned about a hamstring injury hence why asking him not to go full pelt. You would still want to test an injury without pushing it too far and my guess would be a speed test at 70%.

This is a mute point anyway because like I’ve said all you have to do is watch our games to see that he isn’t just fast for a FB but fast for a player full stop. Even the most committed Shaw haters from his performance thread would agree he is fast when he wants to be.
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The match against Perth Glory was our first match in the pre season ?

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...hester-united-tour-fixtures-2019-16032912.amp

Again, even if it's true that Shaw was in some sort of injury precaution I find the idea of doing a max speed test when you can't run at full speed quite illogical.

And yes, it's definitely a mute point since both sides' argument is just watching. Nothing concrete to back up. That's why I said we'd better stop here.
 
roonster09 said:
Liverpool have conceded 19 goals from open play, we have conceded 20 goals from open play.

We should really work on set piece attacking and defending.
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Yet if you believe some, 2/4 of our back 4 isnt good enough, and in some quarters 3/4 of the back 4 isnt good enough.

Even the goals from open play we have conceded, how many have come from individual mistakes? We cut that out along with better set piece defence, we will be hard to score against.
 
Just heard we have 5 clean sheets in our last 6 home games..
before that, we had 5 in 32 .

Does that sound right?
 
Alemar said:
Several of those have been huge howlers from de Gea - to an extent they may be ignored when talking about quality of our defence line. When a GK kicks the ball out, it hits the forward and deflects in our goal, the stats become worse
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Looking back at the season, my overall impression is that there have not been many goal scoring opportunities for the other teams against us. I think is is supported by statistics as well.
 
prateik said:
Just heard we have 5 clean sheets in our last 6 home games..
before that, we had 5 in 32 .

Does that sound right?
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It's actually 5 in 5. United has had 14 cs from 22 games in all comps since new years. 9 from 29 before.
 
I think Lindelof has been our most underrated player and Shaw is the second most underrated player. Shaw was player of the year last year and Lindelof has been head and shoulders above all our other center backs. More credit should be given to them. Would I replace them? Sure but unless we're getting Skrinar for 90 mill I dont see that many players that are better. What we need is competition for places. We already have Brandon so Shaw and so LB is fine. A CB that can play with Lindelof on occasion and Maguire on occasion and compliment them then that would be ideal.
 
A-man said:
Looking back at the season, my overall impression is that there have not been many goal scoring opportunities for the other teams against us. I think is is supported by statistics as well.
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Yes, our xGA this season is 31.52, lowest in the league. Although there are many more implications behind the stat, it's safe to conclude that there have been few goal scoring opportunities from our opponents.
 
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