Our Defence - Has it actually been fixed?

[MadMike]

It's a complex question.

If we say that our defence's prime or only job is to try and keep clean sheets then you could argue it has. Albeit I still have some concerns about Lindelof that might be a bit swept under the carpet as we go through this current purple patch.

However a defensive unit's job is not to only defend. People in the last couple of pages seem to compare our clean sheets and xGAs with Liverpool and surprisingly only since Jan too, despite both defences being unaltered since the start of the season. Yet conveniently forget that TAA and Robertson have 20 assists in the EPL alone between them, which is same as our entire defence and midfield put together (incl. Bruno). And despite their fullbacks playing so advanced that they have an output that wingers would envy, they still have more clean sheets.

In my opinion our defence is pretty decent, but nothing exceptional. Our fullbacks are good defenders, but mediocre going forward. Lindelof is decent but can be upgraded and Maguire is overall very good but with some blatant weaknesses of his own (complete lack of speed on the turn for one). Between them they can cover each other's weaknesses and form a solid defensive unit, but it won't rival the best units of recent times that we've seen at City or Liverpool or indeed United in days of yore. Because those not only did their defensive job very well but also contributed greatly to the team's offensive potential.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

The match against Perth Glory was our first match in the pre season ?

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...hester-united-tour-fixtures-2019-16032912.amp

Again, even if it's true that Shaw was in some sort of injury precaution I find the idea of doing a max speed test when you can't run at full speed quite illogical.

And yes, it's definitely a mute point since both sides' argument is just watching. Nothing concrete to back up. That's why I said we'd better stop here.

Difference being their is tonnes of footage people have seen of him running against the fastest players in the prem and beating if not keeping pace with them vs your one bit of testing that Shaw has said himself he was told to go 70% so really do we go off of one stat, one day or the 1000’s of minutes we’ve Watched him play?

 

[Stacks]

Mate this is ridiculous. Shaw is one of the fastest players in the squad. There is a reason Rashford, James, McT and that mention him. They’ve all had interviews where they are asked who is the fastest and they say they don’t really know. Tubes has even said to Shaw in an interview enough debates why don’t they just line up and find out and Shaw says they can’t as imagine the fall out if they got injured doing that.

The stats Lukaku showed was when Shaw was returning from his Hamstring injury and was told to go 50%. How anyone can watch our games and say he is slow is beyond me. He’s rapid. Has to be to make up for Maguire mistakes.

Personally I think Shaw is our best defender. Bissaka is great at one thing, probably the best in the world at that one thing but Shaw reads play better, is better positionally, is better at stopping danger, is good in the air, has the strength and speed to go along with it as well.

Then take in to count his touch and passing ability and the ever improving aggressiveness to get forward and deliver balls in and he is one hell of a player. Also instrumental in the little left hand side patterns he, Martial Rashford Pogba and Matic play freeing up space on the right. The boy can play football.

I think some people are just obsessed with one dimensional winger types as Fullbacks when Shaw is an all round better footballer/defender than most of them.

And the Luke Shaw love-in continues, he must have sent out more food-hampers than was reported at the time.

Luke Shaw has 7 premier league assists in 6 years.. Hell of a player! he has also managed to create 13 big chances in his exciting premier league career to date.

Wan Bissaka has 4 EPL assists this season alone and created 4 big chances also. He will eclipse Shaw's premier league career creative output by the end of next season (hopefully) and this from a guy who's attacking output is his main critique.

Shaw is mediocrity personified but he gets by and does his job so no complaints from me. He isn't an urgent issue. I remember there were periods when Young was a better option than Luke. again this isn't a witch hunt as he can chill for now. After we upgrade other areas and are hunting CL, and EPL glory, he will be first on the hit list.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

Luke Shaw has 7 premier league assists in 6 years.. Hell of a player! he has also managed to create 13 big chances in his exciting premier league career to date.

Wan Bissaka has 4 EPL assists this season alone and created 4 big chances also. He will eclipse Shaw's premier league career creative output by the end of next season (hopefully) and this from a guy who's attacking output is his main critique.

Shaw is mediocrity personified but he gets by and does his job so no complaints from me. He isn't an urgent issue. I remember there were periods when Young was a better option than Luke. again this isn't a witch hunt as he can chill for now. After we upgrade other areas and are hunting CL, and EPL glory, he will be first on the hit list.

You do know there is more to football that assist stats for defenders? You also neglected to highlight the “ever improving“ and forget we had Jose as manager and there was no world where You g was a better fullback.

 

[Roane]

Not read all the comments so apologies if it's been said.

The defence is just a part of the team and how the team plays and is set up can make a defence/defender look better or worse.

With us our defence was always going to be better once the MF and forwards could offer more. If opposition are walking through our MF then the defenders are constantly under pressure and find it harder to get forward.

Personally I've always said that once we have a MF worth talking about we will see improvement all over the team.

 

[Stacks]

You do know there is more to football that assist stats for defenders? You also neglected to highlight the “ever improving“ and forget we had Jose as manager and there was no world where You g was a better fullback.

I get that. But in modern day football an important aspect of fullbacks nowadays is offering an attacking threat.

I feel he offered more when he was younger. Looked aggressive and hungry. maybe it's age.

2018 Ashley Young started 27 games in the league at LB. Shaw started 11. Young was also playing for England and played in the world cup 5 games. Shaw has 8 England caps in his 7 years as a pro. This means there are always left fullbacks (sometimes wingers) who are English that are valued ahead of him.

Even today he doesn't get a look in. I feel like he is yesterdays child.

 

[RashyForPM]

I don’t believe that any of these guys, including De Gea, are world class (AWB will get there once he improves his attacking, as he’s currently doing, as he already is defensively). However, I would be inclined to stick with all of them next season due to their form and understanding.

Watching them play, the 5 of them seem to know each other so well. Aside from Liverpool, there is no top 6 defence more gelled together and better drilled than this, and credit to them and Ole for that. Every time one of AWB/Lindelof or Maguire/Shaw messes up, the other is there to bail him out (bar Bergwijn’s goal, but I’ll let them off due to rust). They’re all clearly in form now though, so there’s been no mistakes in the 3 games since.

They’re all good ball players too, including AWB. While as previously stated he can still improve it to go to the next level, some of his crossing this season has been scrumptious. Anyway, back to the collective defence, their chemistry and ball-playing ability to progress the ball to our midfielders has been a major part of our revival.

Let’s hope they can progress further next season. As for De Gea personally, he has to cut out his practically monthly mistakes. If these things happen, it could go a long way to helping us challenge for the title next season.

 

[cyril C]

It's a complex question.

If we say that our defence's prime or only job is to try and keep clean sheets then you could argue it has. Albeit I still have some concerns about Lindelof that might be a bit swept under the carpet as we go through this current purple patch.

However a defensive unit's job is not to only defend. People in the last couple of pages seem to compare our clean sheets and xGAs with Liverpool and surprisingly only since Jan too, despite both defences being unaltered since the start of the season. Yet conveniently forget that TAA and Robertson have 20 assists in the EPL alone between them, which is same as our entire defence and midfield put together (incl. Bruno). And despite their fullbacks playing so advanced that they have an output that wingers would envy, they still have more clean sheets.

In my opinion our defence is pretty decent, but nothing exceptional. Our fullbacks are good defenders, but mediocre going forward. Lindelof is decent but can be upgraded and Maguire is overall very good but with some blatant weaknesses of his own (complete lack of speed on the turn for one). Between them they can cover each other's weaknesses and form a solid defensive unit, but it won't rival the best units of recent times that we've seen at City or Liverpool or indeed United in days of yore. Because those not only did their defensive job very well but also contributed greatly to the team's offensive potential.

Agree with most of your comment except 1 point - "..Between them they can cover each other's weaknesses and form a solid defensive unit, but it won't rival the best units of recent times that we've seen at City or Liverpool or indeed United in days of yore..."

Vidic and Rio were not the fastest CB in the league, and certainly not in their (defensive) record season. It was about partnership, concentration, experience etc., that made them the best in the world, even if just for a short period of time. Rio was very careless early on, but after then ban, his concentration has in fact improved. It is all down to individuals if they are capable of giving 101% every game.

 

[Teja]

It's one of those things that stats, the eye test and the pundits all agree on. The defence is fine, don't fix something that isn't broken.

If there's one complaint I have it's that Lindelof isn't aggressive enough in aerial duels but he more than makes up for it in terms of ball playing ability, reading of the game etc. Just focus on the RW and add a bit of depth and we're golden.

 

[Santoryo]

You do know there is more to football that assist stats for defenders? You also neglected to highlight the “ever improving“ and forget we had Jose as manager and there was no world where You g was a better fullback.

Problem with this place is that people love looking at the current dominant team and want us to copy them as if there are no other ways to play football. These guys on these boards have seen TAA rack up assists at Liverpool as a full back so they want ours to also be the exact copy of them and if they don't they are deemed not good enough regardless of their qualities and what they bring to the team.

This happens all the time even during SAF time. Back then it was people complaining why we didn't play tiki taka and dominate possession with 70-80% of the ball like Barca. It's always been like this with the Caf. Folks always envious of what other teams are doing, wanting to copy whatever they are doing while disregarding their own team's strength.

For some guys Shaw has to pull TAA assist numbers for them to be happy. It doesn't matter that he's solid defensively and has good link up play with players on that left side, he's not putting TAA assist numbers or whipping crosses therefore he's useless in their eyes.

I've learned to ignore certain things said and avoid certain debates given the nature of posters on these boards. It's frankly just a waste of time.

 

[Class of 63]

Problem with this place is that people love looking at the current dominant team and want us to copy them as if there are no other ways to play football. These guys on these boards have seen TAA rack up assists at Liverpool as a full back so they want ours to also be the exact copy of them and if they don't they are deemed not good enough regardless of their qualities and what they bring to the team.

This happens all the time even during SAF time. Back then it was people complaining why we didn't play tiki taka and dominate possession with 70-80% of the ball like Barca. It's always been like this with the Caf. Folks always envious of what other teams are doing, wanting to copy whatever they are doing while disregarding their own team's strength.

For some guys Shaw has to pull TAA assist numbers for them to be happy. It doesn't matter that he's solid defensively and has good link up play with players on that left side, he's not putting TAA assist numbers or whipping crosses therefore he's useless in their eyes.

I've learned to ignore certain things said and avoid certain debates given the nature of posters on these boards. It's frankly just a waste of time.

Who are these people you speak so fondly of? Name and shame.

 

[sp_107]

Spent 50M on AWB but we need to improve his attacking play, spent 80M on Maguire but we still need to buy another partner who can improve Harry.

No doubt these 2 signings improved us for sure but I am wondering if you guys think we could have done better with that money OR you are happy with these 2 signings for that kind of money?

 

[red woppit]

Still a work in progress. AWB is a terrific one on one defender, but sometimes his positioning could be better. I have no problem with his attacking play, that will naturally improve the more he plays. He looks a little tired to me at the moment. I appreciate that he is only in his second full season, but I believe he will gradually develop into a very good full back. Lindelof I'm still not sure about, just doesn't fill me with confidence in his tackles and aerial contests. Maguire is a very good, solid, ball winning defender, with a fair amount of skill, would be ideal (as other posters have said) with a quicker CB alongside him. Shaw looks rejuvenated at the moment, probably thanks to Williams. Think a fit Tuanzebe would slot in nicely alongside Maguire, but needs to put his injuries behind him. Mengi looks a very good prospect indeed, will go on loan next season, I believe, unless we manage to get rid of Rojo, Jones and Smalling, and don't bring in a new CB. De Gea I think has got another season here, then the decision will be made, either him or Henderson. Henderson will go out on loan I think, possibly to Sheffield United if they get into Europe, otherwise a possible overseas loan? Laird looks a terrific prospect also, far better in my opinion than Dalot, who has yet to convince me.

 

[Striker10]

We can be tighter. I think we've not conceded a great deal and quite a few have been down to errors so the potential to improve is there. We're not playing to our limits yet. We are an offensive team. I feel for AWB and Shaw because it's hard running. Esp for AWB who lunges in a fair bit if there's a challenge to be made. But they will all improve. A could do with certain players over coming injuries so we can look at them properly so hopefully that can happen.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Spent 50M on AWB but we need to improve his attacking play, spent 80M on Maguire but we still need to buy another partner who can improve Harry.

No doubt these 2 signings improved us for sure but I am wondering if you guys think we could have done better with that money OR you are happy with these 2 signings for that kind of money?

Awb is worth that money. As you can see his attacking play has improved and he's only 21. Every body knew Maguire wasn't worth 80m and everybody knew he would need a pacy defender by his side

 

[devilish]

Let's first analyse what we've got

RB: We've got the best defensive FB in the world in AWB. He's improving in terms of assists but he'll never be an Alexander-Arnold type of FB.
CB: Maguire is literally rock. He's physically imposing, he's great in air and he's painfully slow.
CB: Lindelof what is Lindelof good at exactly? He's not particularly quick, he's not physically imposing, he's positioning is meah and his ball playing skills are decent but not great
LB: Shaw is basically the English Lindelof.

Reserves: Apart from Williams and Smalling the rest are, well, either shit or injury prone or both.

So here's my plan

A- Sell everyone apart from AWB, Maguire, Smalling, Tuanzebe and Williams
B- Promote Laird
C- Sign Konate, Salisu or Sarr on a free , Max Aarons and Telles (minimum fee clause of 34m)

First team

AWB--------------------------Maguire--------------Konate--------------Telles

Res

Max Aarons/Laird------Smalling-------------Salisu/Sarr------------------Williams


Conclusion

1 defensive FB, 2 CBs who are good in air, 1 with pace, and 1 attacking minded FB. Aarons and Sarr can play as LB giving us cover.

 

[Dante]

Our good defensive record is mostly down to the double pivot of Fred/McTominay we played earlier in the season. The fact we haven't conceded many in recent weeks is because of how poor the opposition have been since the Spurs game.

But even despite the low count of goals conceded since lockdown, the backline has looked error prone.

That being said, I don't think anyone can reasonably argue for Fred/McTominay to be first choice again. The current midfield system has to be what we use for the foreseeable future.

Is the defence fixed? No. At least not if we assume that the midfield has been fixed.

 

[Strelok]

Let's first analyse what we've got

RB: We've got the best defensive FB in the world in AWB. He's improving in terms of assists but he'll never be an Alexander-Arnold type of FB.
CB: Maguire is literally rock. He's physically imposing, he's great in air and he's painfully slow.
CB: Lindelof what is Lindelof good at exactly? He's not particularly quick, he's not physically imposing, he's positioning is meah and his ball playing skills are decent but not great
LB: Shaw is basically the English Lindelof.

Reserves: Apart from Williams and Smalling the rest are, well, either shit or injury prone or both.

So here's my plan

A- Sell everyone apart from AWB, Maguire, Smalling, Tuanzebe and Williams
B- Promote Laird
C- Sign Konate, Sarr on a free, Max Aarons and Telles (minimum fee clause of 34m)

First team

AWB--------------------------Maguire--------------Konate--------------Telles

Res

Max Aarons/Laird------Smalling-------------Sarr------------------Williams


Conclusion

1 defensive FB, 2 CBs who are good in air, 1 with pace, and 1 attacking minded FB. Aarons and Sarr can play as LB giving us cover.

I like Laird. Lad looks pretty promising.

 

[Sylar]

Its improved. A lot. It would probably be better if we took out some of DDGs mistakes.
Defensively we look strong, but its good weve been able to have a consistent back 5.

 

[meamth]

Luke Shaw has 7 premier league assists in 6 years.. Hell of a player! he has also managed to create 13 big chances in his exciting premier league career to date.

Wan Bissaka has 4 EPL assists this season alone and created 4 big chances also. He will eclipse Shaw's premier league career creative output by the end of next season (hopefully) and this from a guy who's attacking output is his main critique.

Shaw is mediocrity personified but he gets by and does his job so no complaints from me. He isn't an urgent issue. I remember there were periods when Young was a better option than Luke. again this isn't a witch hunt as he can chill for now. After we upgrade other areas and are hunting CL, and EPL glory, he will be first on the hit list.

Great judging his output during troubled times.

Now collect the data during our settled times.

I don't give a feck about the past, sad regimes, all are forgotten now.

Every player in this team now deserves a clean slate with Ole's exciting team.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Great judging his output during troubled times.

Now collect the data during our settled times.

I don't give a feck about the past, sad regimes, all are forgotten now.

Every player in this team now deserves a clean slate with Ole's exciting team.

Agreed the likes of Lingard and Pereira have been given a clean slate and have failed to capitalise. Mctominay Shaw Martial and Fred have capitalised on their second chance to show that they are useful

 

[devilish]

Great judging his output during troubled times.

Now collect the data during our settled times.

I don't give a feck about the past, sad regimes, all are forgotten now.

Every player in this team now deserves a clean slate with Ole's exciting team.

He produced no assists this season

 

[Fussmeister]

Poor Shaw. I really think he has played well but still gets ton of shit. And VNL looks alot more solid aswell.

But yeah, lets start all over again with new signings and see if they fit... can take up to a year or so for a new back 4 to play well together

 

[meamth]

He produced no assists this season

How about key passes?
Goals?
Distance covered?
Interceptions?

LBs most important stats is assists?

 

[devilish]

How about key passes?
Goals?
Distance covered?
Interceptions?

LBs most important stats is assists?

It kind of important considering that we're not playing in the 1980s where FBs were makeshift CBs. AWB is a defensive FB and he still produced 4 assists, which is just 2 or 3 less assists then Shaw did throughout his career with us.

So Shaw is inferior in terms of defending when compared to AWB and he produce next to nothing going forward. He's also incredibly injury prone as well. Considering that we got 3 defensive minded defenders then we should add someone who can go forward.

 

[meamth]

It kind of important considering that we're not playing in the 1980s where FBs were makeshift CBs. AWB is a defensive FB and he still produced 4 assists, which is just 2 or 3 less assists then Shaw did throughout his career with us.

So Shaw is inferior in terms of defending when compared to AWB and he produce next to nothing going forward. He's also incredibly injury prone as well. Considering that we got 3 defensive minded defenders then we should add someone who can go forward.

Fine by me if you want to use stats to measure a player. But I think he is one the best LB since that 17 unbeaten run started.

I think Shaw has improved a lot this season, as well as others. He covered more distance, worked harder and going into dangerous positions even more often. He also improved his fitness and rarely got injured this season.

You said he is inferior to AWB in terms of defending, but who can be as good as that freak of nature?

Who will go to England as first choice LB? It's him or Chilwell right now, but the latter is out of form and way more inferior to Shaw.

 

[RedSky]

Shaws been excellent since January, a few meh games but generally very consistent, he also looks fitter than i've ever seen him at United. He's certainly raised his game.

As for the defense, we need better options for rotation but our starting 4 is very solid right now. 12 clean sheets in 17 games.

 

[Stacks]

How about key passes?
Goals?
Distance covered?
Interceptions?

LBs most important stats is assists?

It kind of important considering that we're not playing in the 1980s where FBs were makeshift CBs. AWB is a defensive FB and he still produced 4 assists, which is just 2 or 3 less assists then Shaw did throughout his career with us.

So Shaw is inferior in terms of defending when compared to AWB and he produce next to nothing going forward. He's also incredibly injury prone as well. Considering that we got 3 defensive minded defenders then we should add someone who can go forward.

created one big chance in the league this season which I believe was yesterday. I think Shaw will admit that he plays safe and has little aggression or courage in hurting teams offensively and I think its a lack of confidence in his delivery

The thing is that Shaw is not an urgent issue, He is plodding along and doing ok. Its more for the future as the team evolves when he should be worried. In Basketball they level players based off whether they are "all star level", MVP calibre etc. All STAR players are basically Team of the season candidates (or those selected for the All Star game) and Shaw is nowhere near that level. Evra made it 3 times, so would be considered All Star level. Neville made it 4 times in the 90s. I cannot imagine a season where Shaw would even be considered for the Team of the Season especially as he doesn't even feature for his country as LB option. I can see Wan Bissaka one day being a candidate for team of the Season and probably was last season.

Like I always say, Shaw can chill. We don't need WC players in all positions so even if we never upgrade him we'll be fine.

 

[Tom Cato]

12 clean sheets in the last 17

 

[meamth]

created one big chance in the league this season which I believe was yesterday. I think Shaw will admit that he plays safe and has little aggression or courage in hurting teams offensively and I think its a lack of confidence in his delivery

The thing is that Shaw is not an urgent issue, He is plodding along and doing ok. Its more for the future as the team evolves when he should be worried. In Basketball they level players based off whether they are "all star level", MVP calibre etc. All STAR players are basically Team of the season candidates (or those selected for the All Star game) and Shaw is nowhere near that level. Evra made it 3 times, so would be considered All Star level. Neville made it 4 times in the 90s. I cannot imagine a season where Shaw would even be considered for the Team of the Season especially as he doesn't even feature for his country as LB option. I can see Wan Bissaka one day being a candidate for team of the Season and probably was last season.

Like I always say, Shaw can chill. We don't need WC players in all positions so even if we never upgrade him we'll be fine.

Thank you.

 

[Jonno]

12 clean sheets in the last 17

Exactly, yet another clean sheet.

As soon as we make an error, the entire internet breaks, it's nothing new.

IMO, the defence is solid enough to finish 3rd in the PL.

Sure, if we want to legit challenge for 100+ points with Liverpool next season, we'll need another CB and a more consistent GK, but one step at a time, we're still 5th.

 

[bsCallout]

Henderson and a good fast CB next to Maguire and we can win the league.

Otherwise top 2.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

It's weird that our defense is doing well and people are still calling for a CB to replace Lindelof. Yes I agree Lindelof needs upgrading by a better defender suited to pair Maguire but it can wait. It can wait because the current CBs available in the transfer market like Upamecano who people are calling for would not transform our defense. I don't see how Upamecano or the other CBs available can transform our defense (that now has 12 clean sheets and 6 goals conceded in 17 games) and take it to the next level.

I mean we like to talk about how Shaw Maguire Lindelof and AWB isn't a league winning back line. So which defender is available and gettable right now that would replace Lindelof and make it a league winning back line

 

[Bilbo]

As has been said, 12 clean sheets in our 17 match unbeaten run. 2 of those 5 matches that we conceded were down to goalkeeper errors.

The question is not 'has it actually been fixed' because those numbers speak for themselves. The question really is 'is our defence as good as it can be?' and this is where there is no correct answer because we simply don't know. We don't have the best player in the world in any position in the back four, but yet they are not conceding goals, or actually even that many chances, so the old saying of 'if it isn't broke then don't fix it' should apply here.

This isn't a small sample size we are talking about either. 17 matches is not a trend or a freakish run, its actually a solid indicator that our defence is very strong. We are also now averaging less than a goal a game over the season.

Our biggest concern is that we are carrying 3 centre backs on our books that are not contributing in Smalling, Rojo & Jones. In addition Bailly and Tuanzebe have barely featured. We need to be focusing on removing three of these players at the best price we can before we add anybody else.

 

[Fussmeister]

It's weird that our defense is doing well and people are still calling for a CB to replace Lindelof. Yes I agree Lindelof needs upgrading by a better defender suited to pair Maguire but it can wait. It can wait because the current CBs available in the transfer market like Upamecano who people are calling for would not transform our defense. I don't see how Upamecano or the other CBs available can transform our defense (that now has 12 clean sheets and 6 goals conceded in 17 games) and take it to the next level.

I mean we like to talk about how Shaw Maguire Lindelof and AWB isn't a league winning back line. So which defender is available and gettable right now that would replace Lindelof and make it a league winning back line

I have really followed VNL the last couple of games and he is pretty fast i have to admit. Its something with him that make him look lost but i am starting to believe his not.

Yesterday he made a run into AVs penalty box and he had som excellent speed.

Heading is his big problem but its geting much better.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

As has been said, 12 clean sheets in our 17 match unbeaten run. 2 of those 5 matches that we conceded were down to goalkeeper errors.

The question is not 'has it actually been fixed' because those numbers speak for themselves. The question really is 'is our defence as good as it can be?' and this is where there is no correct answer because we simply don't know. We don't have the best player in the world in any position in the back four, but yet they are not conceding goals, or actually even that many chances, so the old saying of 'if it isn't broke then don't fix it' should apply here.

This isn't a small sample size we are talking about either. 17 matches is not a trend or a freakish run, its actually a solid indicator that our defence is very strong. We are also now averaging less than a goal a game over the season.

Our biggest concern is that we are carrying 3 centre backs on our books that are not contributing in Smalling, Rojo & Jones. In addition Bailly and Tuanzebe have barely featured. We need to be focusing on removing three of these players at the best price we can before we add anybody else.

Exactly. Our defense right now is very solid but it's not about it being solid anymore but whether it can win titles. And right now I don't think there's any defender available that can turn this defense to a title winning one. I've seen people calling for Ake or Upamecano to replace Lindelof but I personally don't see how those defenders can make our current back line a title winning one.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

I have really followed VNL the last couple of games and he is pretty fast i have to admit. Its something with him that make him look lost but i am starting to believe his not.

Yesterday he made a run into AVs penalty box and he had som excellent speed.

Heading is his big problem but its geting much better.

It's his physique

 

[adexkola]

Exactly. Our defense right now is very solid but it's not about it being solid anymore but whether it can win titles. And right now I don't think there's any defender available that can turn this defense to a title winning one. I've seen people calling for Ake or Upamecano to replace Lindelof but I personally don't see how those defenders can make our current back line a title winning one.

What we have is enough to win titles. I refer you to City who won 2 titles with Laporte being the only defender that's rated on here. Ditto for Liverpool with VVD

 

[devilish]

created one big chance in the league this season which I believe was yesterday. I think Shaw will admit that he plays safe and has little aggression or courage in hurting teams offensively and I think its a lack of confidence in his delivery

The thing is that Shaw is not an urgent issue, He is plodding along and doing ok. Its more for the future as the team evolves when he should be worried. In Basketball they level players based off whether they are "all star level", MVP calibre etc. All STAR players are basically Team of the season candidates (or those selected for the All Star game) and Shaw is nowhere near that level. Evra made it 3 times, so would be considered All Star level. Neville made it 4 times in the 90s. I cannot imagine a season where Shaw would even be considered for the Team of the Season especially as he doesn't even feature for his country as LB option. I can see Wan Bissaka one day being a candidate for team of the Season and probably was last season.

Like I always say, Shaw can chill. We don't need WC players in all positions so even if we never upgrade him we'll be fine.

Gaz retired with 35 assists in the EPL, Evra had 21 assists, Irwin and Phil Neville (yep Phil) had 25 assists, Shaw on the other hand has 7 assists. AWB (classic defensive FB) had 4 assists this season alone while Shaw produced 0 assists this season. AWB have in total 7 assists in 73 matches, a reasonable chunk of whom he got them with Palace (a team that barely ever leaves its own half of pitch). Shaw has 7 assists in 155 matches most of whom he played with Manchester United (ie an attacking team)

As Gaz once said the FB role has evolved in the last few years and what was good in the past is not good enough now. With wingers acting more like inside forwards, fbs are expected to be able to go forward and act like the traditional English winger while concurrently be able to defend like a regular FB would do. In fact there was one instance when Gaz even questioned whether he himself would be good enough to play with a current serious title contender team (which in my opinion is false modesty but anyway).

Shaw is not great defensively, he's not great attacking wise and he's injury prone. This squad has too non players ie players who just sit there and play despite barely having any strengths whatsoever. We're not talking about being WC here. I mean Gaz, Park, Butt, James, Smalling and Ole weren't WC but there were aspects in their game that made/makes them great or at least good. We're talking about players like Shaw, Lingard and Lindelof whom you could sit down for hours and you can barely come out with anything that justify why the feck are they wearing the red shirt.

 

[devilish]

Fine by me if you want to use stats to measure a player. But I think he is one the best LB since that 17 unbeaten run started.

I think Shaw has improved a lot this season, as well as others. He covered more distance, worked harder and going into dangerous positions even more often. He also improved his fitness and rarely got injured this season.

You said he is inferior to AWB in terms of defending, but who can be as good as that freak of nature?

Who will go to England as first choice LB? It's him or Chilwell right now, but the latter is out of form and way more inferior to Shaw.

I honestly don't see that. He's meah defensively and he's shocking going forward which is kind of a problem in a very defensive defence who rely on 2 CB who barely ever create anything and a nearly WC but still defensive FB.