Onana has not worked out. We need a new keeper.

Kostov said:
Sorry that was the other joker, claiming a bargain here. Him being the 4th most expensive GK in history shows how ridiculous the fee was, not sure what corner are you trying to claim here. That it was a good value for money?
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I think it was his real value. 50+ would've been overpaying a bit, but you don't get a keeper of Onana's abilities who's young, already an established international for many years, and has many great seasons behind him at Ajax and Inter, for much lower than 30-40m. He was just coming off of a season as well where he was probably the best GK in the CL with a motm performance in the final against the best team in the world. And whilst his shot-stopping hasn't been good enough on a few occasions, he's still excellent with the ball, an excellent passer, and he's amongst the most press-resistant goalkeepers in the world. Pep himself said that City didn't press Onana in the final, because it was pointless to even try. And you've seen that at United as well, you can't get the ball off him.

Also, the stats don't lie. He has prevented many goals this season

 
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Lash said:
You do realise you're talking to a Brighton fan? They don't have "supremely talented players at all ten outfield positions" yet manage to play this style extremely well. Also you don't need all 10 to be talented, that's the point, you need your back line to all be comfortable on the ball to draw in players up the pitch, break the first line of the press, someone creative and fast players at the other end to exploit the space left from pushing up the pitch.

I think you're conflating playing out from the back with tiki taka. They're not the same thing. Transition sides now play out from the back, set pressing traps and break quickly. You don't need a team full of superstars to do that.
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With all due respect to Brighton, they're not breaking into the top four any time soon. They play good football but as soon as your top players make their name they get moved on to bigger clubs for a massive profit for the club and the cycle of spotting young talent and then selling for profit repeats itself. There's nothing wrong with that at all, but a club like United aspires to lift major trophies. In defense of United's critics, the only thing we've been lifting over the last decades is our faces off the pitch in humiliation. Why is the subject of many other threads.

The point is that unless we build a squad of players, including squad players, who have the skills to excel at this type of football it is daft in the extreme to believe that a "modern keeper" will transform our play into a buildup, possession juggernaut -- which is what the pundits and morons like Beth (United Stand) kept insisting would be case once Onana walked onto the pitch. Opponents will identify the weak links, force play to those weak link players (AWB and now Casemiro) and capitalize on their inability to beat the press. United are nowhere near having the kind of squad that can build on Onana's supposed prowess with the ball, dominate possession and score at will. We don't press well, we don't defend well, we don't possess well and we're poor at finishing. We're basically poor at everything, including goalkeeping, and at least for me when I see us in 8th place on 54 points it's hard to believe how we're even that high in the table. But we're somehow 7 points ahead of Brighton, who have the players for the style of play demanded by De Zerbi yet find it difficult to break into the top six. There is no shame in Brighton playing the De Zerbi "style extremely well" yet still behind United, who have been horrific all season and undeniably playing chaotic football, which is not an argument for chaotic football, but it is an argument that you really do need top players -- supremely talented players -- to challenge for the PL trophy regardless of what tactics a manager imposes. It is to United's shame that none of our players, our keeper included, who would break into the starting XI for any of the top six clubs in the PL as of today.

Onana hasn't worked out but we should never have bought into the hype around him in the first place. The squad Onana joined was nowhere near the kind of squad that he would supposedly feed balls to and control possession of. All Onana can do now is fizz long balls and he does that no better than De Gea did, but at the cost of poor shot-stopping ability. Onana is a decent but no better than decent keeper, but like with so many other players we fell prey to the hype around him and screwed ourselves by wasting money on him that should have been spent on Casemiro replacement and a CB.
 
If we had DDG and another 10 points that’s just papering cracks no?

Onana I believe is good enough but as per we aren’t a functioning team it’s a mish mash of individuals with no tactical input from the manager.

the only player from EtH that I think will be poor even under a decent manager is Antony, everybody else I think still has something to offer.
 
golden_blunder said:
We will see, I have a suspicion that once ETH gets the boot we will move away from some of these ideas
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Maybe you're right, although I'll be very surprised if the new footballing department doesn't try to install a style of play that involves being comfortable in possession, including at the back.

Then again I saw a report linking us to Big Sam the other day, so maybe we'll be a hoof-ball team instead! :lol:
 
Marcelinho87 said:
If we had DDG and another 10 points that’s just papering cracks no?

Onana I believe is good enough but as per we aren’t a functioning team it’s a mish mash of individuals with no tactical input from the manager.

the only player from EtH that I think will be poor even under a decent manager is Antony, everybody else I think still has something to offer.
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Don't forget that we would also be in later stages of CL and things could be very different with confidence and momentum.
 
The Hilton said:
Come on mate, you don't get to slate my sources as unreliable given that you've provided no evidence at all, only quoting your vague memory of some reports that may or may not exist.

The main area of disagreement seems to be the bit in bold, for me DDG performed horribly last season, his previously superhuman shot stopping ability had abandoned him and he was making regular mistakes, as well as being as bad as ever on the ball. There's a reason he hasn't been able to find another club.
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I only went through the athletic articles and did not link them here. And they do not mention agreed wage that’s all I am saying.

And being DDG being horrible last year O think is pure nonsense. Onana in the CL that’s a horrible season, DDG never even came close to that. But lots of revisionism on here so not expecting any different regarding DDG.
 
Rojofiam said:
I think it was his real value. 50+ would've been overpaying a bit, but you don't get a keeper of Onana's abilities who's young, already an established international for many years, and has many great seasons behind him at Ajax and Inter, for much lower than 30-40m. He was just coming off of a season as well where he was probably the best GK in the CL with a motm performance in the final against the best team in the world. And whilst his shot-stopping hasn't been good enough on a few occasions, he's still excellent with the ball, an excellent passer, and he's amongst the most press-resistant goalkeepers in the world. Pep himself said that City didn't press Onana in the final, because it was pointless to even try. And you've seen that at United as well, you can't get the ball off him.

Also, the stats don't lie. He has prevented many goals this season

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Onana being worth 50m based on cup run performance is prime fan delusion. Inter got lucky and stumbled to a CL final. Lots of tournament GKs like Ochoa fexample in the past, not many stupid clubs to pay 50m euros though.

Whether he was established or proven is another matter, as it stands he has proven that he is an absolute crap. And what Pep said is prime SAF and Charlie Adam moment, United fans should be embarrassed to mention that, never mind gloat about it.
 
Marcelinho87 said:
If we had DDG and another 10 points that’s just papering cracks no?

Onana I believe is good enough but as per we aren’t a functioning team it’s a mish mash of individuals with no tactical input from the manager.

the only player from EtH that I think will be poor even under a decent manager is Antony, everybody else I think still has something to offer.
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Reminds me of Maguire fans arguing that he turned into a shitshow because De Gea was not vocal enough and Lindelof was weak.
 
Kostov said:
I only went through the athletic articles and did not link them here. And they do not mention agreed wage that’s all I am saying.

And being DDG being horrible last year O think is pure nonsense. Onana in the CL that’s a horrible season, DDG never even came close to that. But lots of revisionism on here so not expecting any different regarding DDG.
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Well you're entitled to your opinion, but you're definitely in a glass house throwing stones when you're accusing others of revisionism.

Given that you accept the Athletic as a reputable source, this article paints a picture of DDG being very average amongst keepers in the league at the goalkeeping aspects of his role.
 
The way he saves or misses shots, dives when a dive is not necessary, stays on his line when he should come out, or stays rooted to the ground when there's a slight deflection, convinces me there's a flaw in his coordination. If they gave him a medical before signing him they obviously missed that bit. We can't have someone between the sticks just because he can distribute the ball to our forwards with long passes. Needs replacing and pretty quick!
 
I feel like I’ve seen enough from him this season to remain confident. Sure he has a few blunders but he’s a good keeper and with a stronger and more consistent defence I can see him becoming a key component of the team and good leader
 
cpresc said:
I feel like I’ve seen enough from him this season to remain confident. Sure he has a few blunders but he’s a good keeper and with a stronger and more consistent defence I can see him becoming a key component of the team and good leader
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I must question you on this. What is it you've seen that makes you feel confident?
Shoot!
 
I read that he went to one of the kids hospital wards in Manchester and gave them all a gown, plus his time obviously

good lad
 
lex talionis said:
With all due respect to Brighton, they're not breaking into the top four any time soon. They play good football but as soon as your top players make their name they get moved on to bigger clubs for a massive profit for the club and the cycle of spotting young talent and then selling for profit repeats itself. There's nothing wrong with that at all, but a club like United aspires to lift major trophies. In defense of United's critics, the only thing we've been lifting over the last decades is our faces off the pitch in humiliation. Why is the subject of many other threads.

The point is that unless we build a squad of players, including squad players, who have the skills to excel at this type of football it is daft in the extreme to believe that a "modern keeper" will transform our play into a buildup, possession juggernaut -- which is what the pundits and morons like Beth (United Stand) kept insisting would be case once Onana walked onto the pitch. Opponents will identify the weak links, force play to those weak link players (AWB and now Casemiro) and capitalize on their inability to beat the press. United are nowhere near having the kind of squad that can build on Onana's supposed prowess with the ball, dominate possession and score at will. We don't press well, we don't defend well, we don't possess well and we're poor at finishing. We're basically poor at everything, including goalkeeping, and at least for me when I see us in 8th place on 54 points it's hard to believe how we're even that high in the table. But we're somehow 7 points ahead of Brighton, who have the players for the style of play demanded by De Zerbi yet find it difficult to break into the top six. There is no shame in Brighton playing the De Zerbi "style extremely well" yet still behind United, who have been horrific all season and undeniably playing chaotic football, which is not an argument for chaotic football, but it is an argument that you really do need top players -- supremely talented players -- to challenge for the PL trophy regardless of what tactics a manager imposes. It is to United's shame that none of our players, our keeper included, who would break into the starting XI for any of the top six clubs in the PL as of today.

Onana hasn't worked out but we should never have bought into the hype around him in the first place. The squad Onana joined was nowhere near the kind of squad that he would supposedly feed balls to and control possession of. All Onana can do now is fizz long balls and he does that no better than De Gea did, but at the cost of poor shot-stopping ability. Onana is a decent but no better than decent keeper, but like with so many other players we fell prey to the hype around him and screwed ourselves by wasting money on him that should have been spent on Casemiro replacement and a CB.
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Sorry, I just don't really understand what you're saying the alternative style of keeper should have been?

The teams most likely challenging City, play out from the back. Onana would have been fine if we could have consistently had Shaw, Martinez and Dalot in the back line and Mainoo in midfield. Instead he's had to deal with a mish mash of players in front of him which has required him fizzing long balls. That isn't his fault though? I don't see where the argument against Onana is, it's more against the state of our squad. He's had a poor start and dropper howlers in the CL, so did De Gea and De Gea went on to be a great servant. Statistically he's been OK in the shot stopping department, so if we improve the players in front of him to being capable on the ball - which we need to do anyway, what's the problem with Onana here?
 
People need to stop bringing up DDG. Just because onana might not be good enough doesnt mean we shouldve kept DDG, who wasnt good enough anymore either. Just means we didnt do a good job replacing him. If people want to talk about saving money they should be talking about having just kept kovar instead.
 
Yakuza_devils said:
And forget about all his blunders in the key moments that cause the CL elimination?
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Blaming Onana for the CL exit is ridiculous, yes he played a part but that exit was down to a lot more than just a couple of goalkeeping errors.

It wasnt Onana's fault that we gave away penalties in all of our first 4 matches or that Rashford got hisself stupidly sent off against Copenhagen.

Since we are comparing him to DDG perhaps people should go back to the 20-21 CL Campaign when we also went out in the group stage and look at the mistakes DDG made, particularly against RBL and PSG
 
RedRocket9908 said:
Blaming Onana for the CL exit is ridiculous, yes he played a part but that exit was down to a lot more than just a couple of goalkeeping errors.

It wasnt Onana's fault that we gave away penalties in all of our first 4 matches or that Rashford got hisself stupidly sent off against Copenhagen.
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The hard on you have for Onana is truly something
 
RedRocket9908 said:
Blaming Onana for the CL exit is ridiculous, yes he played a part but that exit was down to a lot more than just a couple of goalkeeping errors.

It wasnt Onana's fault that we gave away penalties in all of our first 4 matches or that Rashford got hisself stupidly sent off against Copenhagen.

Since we are comparing him to DDG perhaps people should go back to the 20-21 CL Campaign when we also went out in the group stage and look at the mistakes DDG made, particularly against RBL and PSG
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Onana made more than a couple of errors in the CL.
 
Marcelinho87 said:
We could have made it through when he saved the pen had the rest of the team not shit themselves too…
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The outfield players did their jobs in the subsequent game vs Galatasaray, only for Onana to essentially throw the ball into his own net, not once but twice in the same game.
 
Onana is like putting Sergio Busquets in goal. Never feel confident he'll save anything actually.
 
Lash said:
Sorry, I just don't really understand what you're saying the alternative style of keeper should have been?

The teams most likely challenging City, play out from the back. Onana would have been fine if we could have consistently had Shaw, Martinez and Dalot in the back line and Mainoo in midfield. Instead he's had to deal with a mish mash of players in front of him which has required him fizzing long balls. That isn't his fault though? I don't see where the argument against Onana is, it's more against the state of our squad. He's had a poor start and dropper howlers in the CL, so did De Gea and De Gea went on to be a great servant. Statistically he's been OK in the shot stopping department, so if we improve the players in front of him to being capable on the ball - which we need to do anyway, what's the problem with Onana here?
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that any half decent shot goes past him?

you have people bigging up his saves statistics and how many he’s made forgetting that the people defending eth and our shots conceded are all low quality shots. Wel of course he should be saving low quality shots, that doesn’t make him an excellent goal keeper. Anything low, in a corner, outside his standing zone goes in
 
The Hilton said:
Well you're entitled to your opinion, but you're definitely in a glass house throwing stones when you're accusing others of revisionism.

Given that you accept the Athletic as a reputable source, this article paints a picture of DDG being very average amongst keepers in the league at the goalkeeping aspects of his role.
Click to expand...
You are the one who described the golden glove winner of last season as horrible, so let’s not pretend your take on last season is anything as restrained as that Athletic article. And DDG being average amongst goalkeeping aspects is nothing in which many on here disagree. Context is needed though, we were loaning Weghorst last year, struggling to score goals, average GK was the least of our problems.

Edit: We also downgraded with Onana, you can wait on the Athletic take.
 
Kostov said:
You are the one who described the golden glove winner of last season as horrible, so let’s not pretend your take on last season is anything as restrained as that Athletic article. And DDG being average amongst goalkeeping aspects is nothing in which many on here disagree. Context is needed though, we were loaning Weghorst last year, struggling to score goals, average GK was the least of our problems.

Edit: We also downgraded with Onana, you can wait on the Athletic take.
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I think it's fair to describe a player performing at a mid table level as horrible for Manchester United. You claimed he was one of our better performers.

Context is indeed needed, and I agree we had (and still have) a host of problems, but a goalkeeper who was barely average within the league at goalkeeping, and one of the worst on the ball, ranked highly among our problems.

As for your edit, statistically you're just wrong. In terms of preventing goals, DDG let in 4.7 more than he should have last season, while Onana had prevented 5.7 more than he should have as of the 10th April, which was the second best in the league (see here). As an aside, there's some serious irony in you making yet another statement without any evidence at all, given how you tried to gatekeep what reports were true (while of course providing no evidence of your own).
 
Whilst reports of any player being a done deal in this clickbait age are often wide of the mark, Lunin is showing tonight why Utd fans could be confident in his ability if he was a realistic target - biggest part is he does the simple bits of goalkeeping with no fuss & his foot positioning means he is able to get across & push the ball away rather into danger. Off the line as a sweeper keeper he seems to install confidence in his back four. Not sure though if he’s played himself from 3rd choice to No1 due to age/injuries of keepers at Madrid?
 
The Hilton said:
I think it's fair to describe a player performing at a mid table level as horrible for Manchester United. You claimed he was one of our better performers.

Context is indeed needed, and I agree we had (and still have) a host of problems, but a goalkeeper who was barely average within the league at goalkeeping, and one of the worst on the ball, ranked highly among our problems.

As for your edit, statistically you're just wrong. In terms of preventing goals, DDG let in 4.7 more than he should have last season, while Onana had prevented 5.7 more than he should have as of the 10th April, which was the second best in the league (see here). As an aside, there's some serious irony in you making yet another statement without any evidence at all, given how you tried to gatekeep what reports were true (while of course providing no evidence of your own).
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How can you watch Onana stink up the place for the entire season yet pull up statistics and tell me how he has prevented 5 more goals than he should have, and that with a straight face? There’s a 15 minute blooper reel of his cock ups and he has let 80 goals past him. And you need evidence :wenger:

And yes average was indeed better than some of the crap being served last year by the likes of Antony, Weghorst, Eriksen, Casemiro, Fred and others. We scored 58 goals last year in the PL.
 
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Kostov said:
How can you watch Onana stink up the place for the entire season yet pull up statistics and tell me how he has prevented 5 more goals than he should have, and that with a straight face? There’s a 15 minute blooper reel of his cock ups and he has ket 80 goals past him. And you need evidence :wenger:

And yes average was indeed better than some of the crap being served last year by the likes of Antony, Weghorst, Eriksen, Casemiro, Fred and others. We scored 58 goals last year in the PL.
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:lol: Great isn’t it
 
We won’t get another keeper now. No chance. We’re on a tight budget and only just bought Onana, he’ll get another season. Hopefully in a better system and a team that doesn’t concede 20+ shots every game he may come good
 
The Hilton said:
I think it's fair to describe a player performing at a mid table level as horrible for Manchester United. You claimed he was one of our better performers.

Context is indeed needed, and I agree we had (and still have) a host of problems, but a goalkeeper who was barely average within the league at goalkeeping, and one of the worst on the ball, ranked highly among our problems.

As for your edit, statistically you're just wrong. In terms of preventing goals, DDG let in 4.7 more than he should have last season, while Onana had prevented 5.7 more than he should have as of the 10th April, which was the second best in the league (see here). As an aside, there's some serious irony in you making yet another statement without any evidence at all, given how you tried to gatekeep what reports were true (while of course providing no evidence of your own).
Click to expand...
This is the only stat that matters
https://www.espn.co.uk/football/table
 
Rojofiam said:
I think it was his real value. 50+ would've been overpaying a bit, but you don't get a keeper of Onana's abilities who's young, already an established international for many years, and has many great seasons behind him at Ajax and Inter, for much lower than 30-40m. He was just coming off of a season as well where he was probably the best GK in the CL with a motm performance in the final against the best team in the world. And whilst his shot-stopping hasn't been good enough on a few occasions, he's still excellent with the ball, an excellent passer, and he's amongst the most press-resistant goalkeepers in the world. Pep himself said that City didn't press Onana in the final, because it was pointless to even try. And you've seen that at United as well, you can't get the ball off him.

Also, the stats don't lie. He has prevented many goals this season

Click to expand...


Lies, damn lies and statistics - Mark Twain.
 
Rojofiam said:
I think it was his real value. 50+ would've been overpaying a bit, but you don't get a keeper of Onana's abilities who's young, already an established international for many years, and has many great seasons behind him at Ajax and Inter, for much lower than 30-40m. He was just coming off of a season as well where he was probably the best GK in the CL with a motm performance in the final against the best team in the world. And whilst his shot-stopping hasn't been good enough on a few occasions, he's still excellent with the ball, an excellent passer, and he's amongst the most press-resistant goalkeepers in the world. Pep himself said that City didn't press Onana in the final, because it was pointless to even try. And you've seen that at United as well, you can't get the ball off him.

Also, the stats don't lie. He has prevented many goals this season

Click to expand...

Take a look at the EPL table, that blows all your statistis out of the window.
Ricky Gervais once said,
When you are dead, you don't know you are dead.
It's the same when you are stupid.
 
Matt Varnish said:
Take a look at the EPL table, that blows all your statistis out of the window.
Ricky Gervais once said,
When you are dead, you don't know you are dead.
It's the same when you are stupid.
Click to expand...

What's your point? Without Onana we would be much lower in the table. You're reinforcing my argument without realizing it
 
Rojofiam said:
What's your point? Without Onana we would be much lower in the table. You're reinforcing my argument without realizing it
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My point is (and I shouldn't have to explain it, but here goes)
Despite all the stats people like you throw up, he's still picked the ball out of the net 81 times this season.
He's had more cock ups than a whore
His distribution is worse than a blind postman
And finally we are 8th in the table, with a negative goal difference. That is the only stat that counts, we would be in no worse a position if we had kept De Gea, and bought a decent midlfielder !
 
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