Onana has not worked out. We need a new keeper.

[JPRouve]

Yes don’t be daft.

I don't think that he is that good, he isn't bad though. I see him closer to average than anything else.

 

[JPRouve]

That doesn’t give context. How many shots has each faced? How many have they let in?

shots faced
Saved
Goals conceded

that gives context

Yeah, isn't that list close to the list of teams that conceded the most shots?

 

[golden_blunder]

Yeah, isn't that list close to the list of teams that conceded the most shots?

Quite possibly, haven’t checked. Just not a fan of data on its own to show a positive or a negative. Its like changing the dates of a graph so it shows the trend for whatever narrative you’re selling

 

[Raw]

Yeah, isn't that list close to the list of teams that conceded the most shots?

Shots conceded (on target)

1. Sheffield United (256)
2. West Ham United (233)
3. Burnley (232)
4. Luton Town (217)
5. Wolves (197)
6. Man United (194)
7. Bournemouth (187)
8. Newcastle (185)
9. Fulham (182)
10. Chelsea (177)

Yeah pretty much. Bolded are teams with keepers listed above.

 

[RedRocket9908]

That doesn’t give context. How many shots has each faced? How many have they let in?

shots faced
Saved
Goals conceded

that gives context

But it proves the claim I replied to that he doesnt even try to make saves is incorrect

 

[JPRouve]

Quite possibly, haven’t checked. Just not a fan of data on its own to show a positive or a negative. Its like changing the dates of a graph so it shows the trend for whatever narrative you’re selling

Agreed, raw data are generally useless. You need to put them in context, whether it is quality or frequency. But looking at this one, the other names made me think about some of the worst defensive teams in the league.

Leno is the only one that is in the team in the bottom 10 for shots conceded, then you have 3 teams in the top five, Luton, West Ham and United.

 

[JPRouve]

Shots conceded (on target)

1. Sheffield United (256)
2. West Ham United (233)
3. Burnley (232)
4. Luton Town (217)
5. Wolves (197)
6. Man United (194)
7. Bournemouth (187)
8. Newcastle (185)
9. Fulham (182)
10. Chelsea (177)

Yeah pretty much. Bolded are teams with keepers listed above.

I forgot that saves was only for shot on targets, so yeah your list is more relevant than mine.

 

[Lash]

That doesn’t give context. How many shots has each faced? How many have they let in?

shots faced
Saved
Goals conceded

that gives context

His save percentage is 72.4% for comparison to the others:

Kaminski - 64.3%
Areola - 74.4% (really like him as a keeper, but I am baffled at how often he gets injured)
Leno - 72.2%
Sa - 72.6%

Onana, Kaminski and Areola have roughly an even PSxG-GA, where as Leno it -5 and Sa is a whopping +4.8.

So really, he's a just above average shot stopper, but he's good on the ball. People can draw their own conclusions whether that's good enough. My personal opinion is he's a good keeper with some good qualities (I think his passing could be outstanding quality, but in a better set up team), but with some flaws. Which is probably what you could say about pretty much every keeper for the top teams currently bar Alisson.

 

[Scottynaldinho]

Is he even really good with his feets?

What?

 

[golden_blunder]

His save percentage is 72.4% for comparison to the others:

Kaminski - 64.3%
Areola - 74.4% (really like him as a keeper, but I am baffled at how often he gets injured)
Leno - 72.2%
Sa - 72.6%

Onana, Kaminski and Areola have roughly an even PSxG-GA, where as Leno it -5 and Sa is a whopping +4.8.

So really, he's a just above average shot stopper, but he's good on the ball. People can draw their own conclusions whether that's good enough. My personal opinion is he's a good keeper with some good qualities (I think his passing could be outstanding quality, but in a better set up team), but with some flaws. Which is probably what you could say about pretty much every keeper for the top teams currently bar Alisson.

Thanks that’s helpful.

is it just me or has the standard of keeping dropped a bit in recent years?

 

[Revan]

Thanks that’s helpful.

is it just me or has the standard of keeping dropped a bit in recent years?

Of shot-stopping, probably so. My guess is that keepers nowadays are asked to be both keepers and CBs, which make them less specialized at keepers stuff (saving shots and catching crosses).

Maybe it is just me getting older though.

 

[evil_geko]

Im not saying he is the 2nd best keeper in the league but he isnt shite either and im fed up of people on here blaming him for every goal we conceed when he is playing in a really poorly coached team with no defence or midfield and opposition that are free to shoot at his goal at will.

The fact that he has 8 clean sheets in the league despite all of the issues above is evidence that he is a decent keeper.

Don't bother, Goalkeeper specialists on here analyzed his every move and decided he is shit, terrible, worst keeper we have had, a fraud etc. Too bad so many professional GK scouts didn't have the brilliant knowledge of our Caftards on here.

This thread is a constant clown show.

 

[2 man midfield]

Im not saying he is the 2nd best keeper in the league but he isnt shite either and im fed up of people on here blaming him for every goal we conceed when he is playing in a really poorly coached team with no defence or midfield and opposition that are free to shoot at his goal at will.

The fact that he has 8 clean sheets in the league despite all of the issues above is evidence that he is a decent keeper.

I see people arguing he’s faced so many shots that he’s going to concede goals. And that’s true - we’ve faced 618 shots this PL season. Derby in 07/08 (the worst PL team of all time) faced 629. We’re going to break that record!

However for me it’s more about the eye test. I don’t need stats to tell me that he should’ve saved at least 2 of the goals on Monday. There’s been so many instances, a bit like when Barthez was here, you’re just asking if he could’ve done better.

 

[stefan92]

I see people arguing he’s faced so many shots that he’s going to concede goals. And that’s true - we’ve faced 618 shots this PL season. Derby in 07/08 (the worst PL team of all time) faced 629. We’re going to break that record!

However for me it’s more about the eye test. I don’t need stats to tell me that he should’ve saved at least 2 of the goals on Monday. There’s been so many instances, a bit like when Barthez was here, you’re just asking if he could’ve done better.

Every keeper makes mistakes (some more than others), but Onana just has so many more opportunities to make a mistake than every United keeper before him that I would actually give him some leeway here. Could he be improved on? Yes, surely. But not playing so open would also help him first.

DDG's shotstopping also declined a bit during the last years. I don't think he would look much better if he was still playing this season.

 

[11101]

The post mentioned De Gea, but was about Onana, not him. The point is, we moved away from prioritising saving the ball with passing the ball.

De Gea let cheap goals in towards the end as howlers. As I pointed out, Onana simply lets too many saveable shots in that are not even mistakes. He’s just poor at shot stopping. We’re mot talking about him dropping the ball, or it squirming under him. Just shots that aren’t particularly hard or placed in the corner that he makes an effort to save but can’t. De Gea, even at the end, was NEVER that guy. Unless he was making a clear clanger, he was saving anything that was not exceptionally struck.

Whether or not De Gea had to go is one thing, but he had to go because he was making too many mistakes, not because he was not making enough assists. Our priority in replacing him should have been saving the ball. Some people had it in their heads that he needed to go because he lacked creativity or something.

There was a stat floating around earlier this season that we had conceded the second most shots in league history, behind only Derby County's record breaking season. Some other sources are saying we have the most shots conceded in the league this season. Others say we are 17th. Whatever it really is, it is total shite and no keeper can be judged fairly when our goal is being peppered with an average (a fecking average) of almost 20 shots per game.

Also, dont forget neither Allison nor Ederson are particularly fantastic shot stoppers. They were certainly nowhere near De Gea. Doesn't stop them being great keepers though.

 

[2 man midfield]

Every keeper makes mistakes (some more than others), but Onana just has so many more opportunities to make a mistake than every United keeper before him that I would actually give him some leeway here. Could he be improved on? Yes, surely. But not playing so open would also help him first.

DDG's shotstopping also declined a bit during the last years. I don't think he would look much better if he was still playing this season.

That’s fair. We’ve got so many areas to address this summer that unless the replacement is free I can see the new boss just trying to shore things up and see how we do with a well drilled defence.

 

[wolvored]

That doesn’t give context. How many shots has each faced? How many have they let in?

shots faced
Saved
Goals conceded

that gives context

I was going to say the same. If a goalie has faced 300 shots over a season and saved 100, yet a top team goalie has faced only 100 shots but saved 50, how can you judge the 100 shot stops ar better? These lists need to use percentages.
Edit: Sorry should have read on. Someone has covered this.

 

[justboy68]

I’m not ready to give up on him yet. I know he’s not been perfect but just look at the mess he’s had around him. We know from his performance in the CL at his last club that he is a top keeper.

He’s not had the best structure around him to work with and I think he’s done some good work with his interviews and the things he says. If we get rid of him, these defenders in front of him will just be getting away with it again and we’ll be back here in another year, getting rid of a different keeper. Get behind him and let’s see what he can do under INEOS structure.

 

[crossy1686]

Yeah it's not good that your all discussing how good of a keeper he is as long as he's not facing shots on his goal.

 

[pocco]

Yes don’t be daft.

By current PL standards, he's average.

 

[Semper Fudge]

He may be but there are "cheaper" GKs who is equivalent or better than him with the feets while also good at shot stopping. To spend 50M from DDG to Onana is criminal.

Feet. Feets just sounds adorable.

 

[despairingfool]

He's a really poor keeper. I have no faith in him stopping the majority of shots. Look at Brentford (H), Brighton (H), Bournemouth (A), Crystal Palace (A), Copenhagen (A), Galatasaray (A), Bayern (A). He's let so many goals in that I thought were saveable. I don't like. I want him gone.

 

[Yakuza_devils]

Feet. Feets just sounds adorable.

Thank you, Sir!

 

[Lash]

Thanks that’s helpful.

is it just me or has the standard of keeping dropped a bit in recent years?

Definitely feels like it, but as @Revan it's probably because it's not the sole thing their focused on. They also seem less crazy as they used to be, maybe there's a correlation there!

 

[Lash]

By current PL standards, he's average.

He's above average to be fair to him, the quality does seem to be low though. Really it's only Alisson, Emi Martinez and Pope (even though he's been injured) that stand out. Then there's a tier below where you could argue the merits of their different qualities - take Raya for example he is dominant in the air , but is in the bottom 10 percentile for PSxG/SOT.

 

[Kostov]

Drastically reduced wages yes, but that would still make him the highest paid goalkeeper in the country. It's just that he was on such an absurd salary to begin with that even the drastic reduction was such a large amount. That offer was rescinded, and then the club offered a lower salary which DDG rejected. The reports were generally all very clear on this, here are a couple of reports from a quick search: one, two. So to be absolutely clear about this, our only option for keeping DDG was on a long term contract with him as the best paid goalkeeper in the country, as we offered him a more reasonable deal and he rejected it. It was that, or lose him and bring in a new keeper.

Your final paragraph is a fallacy. You're trying to combine 2 separate decisions into one, making the first one seem bad because the second one has gone badly. Just because his replacement hasn't been good enough, that doesn't mean the decision to get rid of an underperforming player on an inflated contract is a bad one.

As I imagined no reliable source quotes those numbers nor “long term” as there was really very little reliable info on the terms agreed. So nothing clear and long term, not sure I even saw a report quoting a longer contract that 2 years but it's also speculating. Obviously he rejected the other proposal because that's what you do when someone treat you the way the club/ETH did.

The last paragraph is important because when the DDG situation is discussed it's always his contract and how much he cost the club, so for context it's important to understand what we got into is actually much worse, considering our other needs that were also evident 12 months ago. DDG was actually one of our better performers last year IMO, of course that you probably disagree with that.

He's the 4th* most expensive GK ever, and even if I wouldn't go as far as to say he was a bargain, it was a reasonable fee for 43 million and it's probably what his real worth it. We certainly didn't overpay like we did with Antony. Same thing goes for Mount. No midfielder at the age of 24 with his ability and achievements in football will go for less than 55 million.

Yes beating the Buffon fee for half a million, the other list I saw last night missed Buffon somehow. His real worth is about 12-15 million euros mate. We'd struggle to get than if we were selling him this summer. The 4th most expensive GK, Onana, a bargain you said earlier.

 

[pocco]

He's above average to be fair to him, the quality does seem to be low though. Really it's only Alisson, Emi Martinez and Pope (even though he's been injured) that stand out. Then there's a tier below where you could argue the merits of their different qualities - take Raya for example he is dominant in the air , but is in the bottom 10 percentile for PSxG/SOT.

I've been impressed with the distribution of a number of keepers this season, even at lower rated teams. Henderson was the first keeper I've seen in a while who went long so much, but it looked tactical as he was nearly putting players through on goal with one pass. Ederson is a much better passer than Onana. I think he's the best, to be honest. But the likes of Steele at Bournemouth, Sanchez at Chelsea I also think are better or at least as good. Muric is a backup keeper but he looked good last week. Most keepers in the PL are good with the ball these days, and I don't think Onana stands out really.

 

[Rojofiam]

As I imagined no reliable source quotes those numbers nor “long term” as there was really very little reliable info on the terms agreed. So nothing clear and long term, not sure I even saw a report quoting a longer contract that 2 years but it's also speculating. Obviously he rejected the other proposal because that's what you do when someone treat you the way the club/ETH did.

The last paragraph is important because when the DDG situation is discussed it's always his contract and how much he cost the club, so for context it's important to understand what we got into is actually much worse, considering our other needs that were also evident 12 months ago. DDG was actually one of our better performers last year IMO, of course that you probably disagree with that.


Yes beating the Buffon fee for half a million, the other list I saw last night missed Buffon somehow. His real worth is about 12-15 million euros mate. We'd struggle to get than if we were selling him this summer. The 4th most expensive GK, Onana, a bargain you said earlier.

I didn't say he was a bargain. Claiming he's worth 12-15m euros just shows me once again that you don't know what you're talking about. Pointless to continue this conversation for now.

 

[Lash]

I've been impressed with the distribution of a number of keepers this season, even at lower rated teams. Henderson was the first keeper I've seen in a while who went long so much, but it looked tactical as he was nearly putting players through on goal with one pass. Ederson is a much better passer than Onana. I think he's the best, to be honest. But the likes of Steele at Bournemouth, Sanchez at Chelsea I also think are better or at least as good. Muric is a backup keeper but he looked good last week. Most keepers in the PL are good with the ball these days, and I don't think Onana stands out really.

I don't know if Ederson is a much better passer to be honest. He's definitely better, but watching the CL final last year, there were some extremely impressive passes from Onana to break City's press and start counter attacks.

Steele at Brighton is very good on the ball, but he is absolutely shocking as a keeper, his stats area car crash and a good reason why he's constantly been rotated. Sanchez again, decent enough on the ball but worse than keeping the ball out the net than Onana. Both of them have played significantly less too.

Muric is actually really interesting, he performs well on a lot of metrics - claims, shot stopping and on the ball. He does have that benefit of being way more active from being in such a porous side at the bottom of the table, but I think someone will swipe him if Burnley go down. He's better than Trafford.

 

[RedRocket9908]

I didn't say he was a bargain. Claiming he's worth 12-15m euros just shows me once again that you don't know what you're talking about. Pointless to continue this conversation for now.

Claiming he is only worth 12-15m Euro's is ludicrus to be honest, goalkeepers from City Academy with very little real expirience have been sold for more than that.

 

[Alvaro Maestre]

Downgrade from DDG. At least he kept us in the game longer.

 

[Rojofiam]

Claiming he is only worth 12-15m Euro's is ludicrus to be honest, goalkeepers from City Academy with very little real expirience have been sold for more than that.

Yeah but it's pointless to talk any sense on here in times like these. This place is just an echo chamber for doom and gloom posters when the team is in a crisis.

 

[The Hilton]

As I imagined no reliable source quotes those numbers nor “long term” as there was really very little reliable info on the terms agreed. So nothing clear and long term, not sure I even saw a report quoting a longer contract that 2 years but it's also speculating. Obviously he rejected the other proposal because that's what you do when someone treat you the way the club/ETH did.

The last paragraph is important because when the DDG situation is discussed it's always his contract and how much he cost the club, so for context it's important to understand what we got into is actually much worse, considering our other needs that were also evident 12 months ago. DDG was actually one of our better performers last year IMO, of course that you probably disagree with that.

Come on mate, you don't get to slate my sources as unreliable given that you've provided no evidence at all, only quoting your vague memory of some reports that may or may not exist.

The main area of disagreement seems to be the bit in bold, for me DDG performed horribly last season, his previously superhuman shot stopping ability had abandoned him and he was making regular mistakes, as well as being as bad as ever on the ball. There's a reason he hasn't been able to find another club.

 

[The Hilton]

So the only way to compete is to be sheep? No I don’t agree. An innovative coach will find another way to play. Football works in cycles. Something else will be the new fad in a few years.

we clearly can’t play out from the back very well, we don’t see real benefits so in the longer term I’d like my goalkeeper to be dominant and have a high level in his basics. That will win us more points than a keeper who can pass the ball

So because someone will eventually find another style of football that will dominate, we shouldn't try to adopt what's almost a requisite for success at the moment? That logic doesn't add up for me, and it's very silly to suggest that adoption an approach that almost every successful team takes at the moment means being a "sheep". Sporting (and non sporting) history is filled with innovations that became a requirement for others wishing to avoid being left behind.

As for your second paragraph, that's quite a short term approach to me. We'd win more points in the near term if we play the mid block football that the squad is good at and has been built for over years, but that style of football has a ceiling as we've seen. If we want to become a more dominant team, and have the higher success ceiling that comes with that, then we need to move away from that.

 

[golden_blunder]

So because someone will eventually find another style of football that will dominate, we shouldn't try to adopt what's almost a requisite for success at the moment? That logic doesn't add up for me, and it's very silly to suggest that adoption an approach that almost every successful team takes at the moment means being a "sheep". Sporting (and non sporting) history is filled with innovations that became a requirement for others wishing to avoid being left behind.

As for your second paragraph, that's quite a short term approach to me. We'd win more points in the near term if we play the mid block football that the squad is good at and has been built for over years, but that style of football has a ceiling as we've seen. If we want to become a more dominant team, and have the higher success ceiling that comes with that, then we need to move away from that.

We will see, I have a suspicion that once ETH gets the boot we will move away from some of these ideas

 

[lex talionis]

I disagree with this, playing out from the back should utilise the speed and creativity of players like Rashford, Bruno, Hojlund, Amad etc. The whole idea is to invite the opposition onto you and bring them forward so you can then break into the space they leave behind. Your problem isn't Onana in this it's sloppy passes from the defence and the worry that they won't move it fast enough to utilise that space and then get the ball nicked in a dangerous position. This is where you have missed Martinez so much as he is great at retaining the ball and passing through the lines, Maguire is pretty good at that as well, but is more prone to have the ball taken from him.

But the tactic of playing out from the back makes a lot of sense with your forward line.

Let me rephrase what I'm trying to convey. If a squad has been built around a short passing game out of the back then of course you would want a keeper to fits into that philosophy. But you need supremely talented players at all ten outfield positions to pull this off. One weak link and it all falls apart. You can build a starting XI that fits that mold, but building a squad of 23 that fits into that mold is very hard absent unlimited funds (City) and/or the ability to attract top players due to the location (Madrid, Barcelona, London) or a prestigious manager (Klopp).

Manchester United have never been, in the four decades I have followed the club, known as a short passing, tiki taka club that can stitch 25 passes starting from the keeper and walking it into the goal. (Although I do remember one goal we scored in the late 2000s after something like 27 passes.) We've had talent before, but we've never been that. And apart from Martinez, and I suppose Onana, I can't think of any of our outfield players who adapt well to consistently playing out of the back. We've always been about speed and intensity, usually on the break, with the exception of the Van Gaal years which were unbearable to watch, painfully unsuccessful and added to the ridicule that had been built up under Moyes.

That's not to say we should never consider aping Barcelona or City, but we don't have the squad for it now and unless we can actually bring in the best players at their positions in 4 or 5 outfield positions we are guaranteed to have a weakest link somewhere in the squad and these tactics will fail.

 

[Desert Eagle]

One thing is for sure, next season cannot be like this season. If Onana has as many mistakes again, we will have to move on from him next year.

 

[Solius]

I very highly doubt we move him on this summer so I think best case scenario we ditch Bayindir and sign a capable young backup who can challenge. Similar to what Chelsea have with Petrovic, which seems to have worked well for them.

 

[Lash]

Let me rephrase what I'm trying to convey. If a squad has been built around a short passing game out of the back then of course you would want a keeper to fits into that philosophy. But you need supremely talented players at all ten outfield positions to pull this off. One weak link and it all falls apart. You can build a starting XI that fits that mold, but building a squad of 23 that fits into that mold is very hard absent unlimited funds (City) and/or the ability to attract top players due to the location (Madrid, Barcelona, London) or a prestigious manager (Klopp).

Manchester United have never been, in the four decades I have followed the club, known as a short passing, tiki taka club that can stitch 25 passes starting from the keeper and walking it into the goal. (Although I do remember one goal we scored in the late 2000s after something like 27 passes.) We've had talent before, but we've never been that. And apart from Martinez, and I suppose Onana, I can't think of any of our outfield players who adapt well to consistently playing out of the back. We've always been about speed and intensity, usually on the break, with the exception of the Van Gaal years which were unbearable to watch, painfully unsuccessful and added to the ridicule that had been built up under Moyes.

That's not to say we should never consider aping Barcelona or City, but we don't have the squad for it now and unless we can actually bring in the best players at their positions in 4 or 5 outfield positions we are guaranteed to have a weakest link somewhere in the squad and these tactics will fail.

You do realise you're talking to a Brighton fan? They don't have "supremely talented players at all ten outfield positions" yet manage to play this style extremely well. Also you don't need all 10 to be talented, that's the point, you need your back line to all be comfortable on the ball to draw in players up the pitch, break the first line of the press, someone creative and fast players at the other end to exploit the space left from pushing up the pitch.

I think you're conflating playing out from the back with tiki taka. They're not the same thing. Transition sides now play out from the back, set pressing traps and break quickly. You don't need a team full of superstars to do that.

 

[Kostov]

I didn't say he was a bargain. Claiming he's worth 12-15m euros just shows me once again that you don't know what you're talking about. Pointless to continue this conversation for now.

Sorry that was the other joker, claiming a bargain here. Him being the 4th most expensive GK in history shows how ridiculous the fee was, not sure what corner are you trying to claim here. That it was a good value for money?