When he makes a save its so weird, its like how an outfield player playing in goal would save a shot. It always feels like it could go absolutely anywhere when he saves something.
Onana has not worked out. We need a new keeper.
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He was unlucky for the first with the way it bounced back onto Bowen, can’t blame him for that.
He just makes me nervous, which is always a bad sign with a keeper. His confidence isn’t great just now, which makes so much difference. It’s still very early days in his United career, but I don’t trust him.
He does make me a bit nervous, but then again so did de Gea early on in his first season. Let's hope get becomes as solid as de Gea was over the next 7 or so years.
You changed the blimmin title not too long ago...Sad that this thread rears its head every match day. I created a monster
I'm surprised he didn't just stand in that area of the goal the whole time. Would've easily saved it then!
Even though he seems to have strange technical foibles, i think he deserves credit for some decent performances, when you consider the pressure he's under (Is there another GK in the world with a bigger spotlight on them?) and also the constantly changing centre backs he's playing behind. and of course when he stands there with the ball at his feet, sees our players just standing there / wonders where the hell mctom is hiding, he must think whats the effin point.
I thought he should have been stronger for the first goal. You can say he was unlucky, but that ball cannot be allowed to get past him in that position. It's like a lot of the goals he concedes, not out and out clangers but that niggly feeling that a top class keeper would have saved it. Harsh? Maybe, but we either have high standards or we don't.
Need to look at the 2nd goal again but at first glance didn't look like he could do too much.
Need to look at the 2nd goal again but at first glance didn't look like he could do too much.
100%. Although, obviously, many will try.
I won't blame him for both goals, but that doesn't mean he's a good keeper or anything. My opinion stays the same.
He hasn't been an upgrade over Dea Gea. He has some ball skills? Cool, we still almost always play it long. We lack any kind of composure to play in tight spaces. He's shot stopping is subpar and he makes easy saves look like world beaters.
Just haven't been impressed with him at all. A ball playing GK was never what this club needed considering all the other deficiencies up and down the pitch.
Just haven't been impressed with him at all. A ball playing GK was never what this club needed considering all the other deficiencies up and down the pitch.
On the bolded part - goalkeeper shotstopping ability must be one of the most accurate stats you can find in football, and Onana as things stand shotstopping is on De Gea levels in his prime time. Needless to say Onana has been shite in CL mostly because clear and obvious errors. But in the EPL he's actually 2nd best.
It's funny though as De Gea was the one making simple saves make like something extraordinary, and even if he was better than Onana at saving really difficult shots (I think he was), he was equally poor at letting in easy ones. What in the end put him in "average" bucket for shotstopping ability. And he had nothing else in his locker - what I'm pretty sure was the reason we let him go in the end.
Anyway, his ball playing skills will be useful once we get a new coach that values ball possession. For now it makes very little difference indeed.
Even Bowen said in his interview after the game he messed it up as he wanted to cut it onto his left foot but that he got lucky with the rebound.
It's really not. Measuring accurately a keeper's goalstopping ability is as complex as expected goals or other multifactorial stats. That being said, Onana is rating pretty high in the PL.
You disagree that PSxG is one of the most accurate stats out there? I think it's very good - on a big sample it reduces luck factor to minimum, and really shows if a gk is good at stopping shots or not. It also passes the "eye test" - Alisson was ranked top on that parameter in last few years overall, and De Gea golden (in his prime time) was also top.
It is complex because it's based on xG model, but if every gk is evaluated against the same rules, then it's pretty good. Same goes for finishing chances.
Even when he stops a shot, it looks somehow strange. Do you notice this too, or is it just me?
I've been banging this drum for weeks. It's his terrible technique, he's always going for the punch/palm/scoop as a first option rather than a catch. The perfect example is the second free kick against Galatasary; if you watch closely he has his hands in a fist the whole time. Then when it's a fairly tame shot he should be catching he can't readjust from the fisted hands and so tries some stupid fecking punch scoop instead.
He also seemingly lacks any ability to direct a parry and its just a pure lottery whether it bounces off him in to the danger zone or to safety. Then he makes a few standard saves you'd expect a keeper to make and apparently all is good again.
He's shite, to the point that any routine saves are seen as improvement
We bought him supposedly to help our build up play and play higher pressing game to improve the speed and effectiveness of our attack.
But now, we play almost 50% game time with save/boring passes around defence and GK. This killed off any momentum and fast transition on attack. We have bigger problem to score goal now since he is here.
He is no upgrade from DDG at all. In fact, we played better during DDG time with simple long balls.
This guy single handedly dumb us out of CL and ETH never drop him even a game.
But now, we play almost 50% game time with save/boring passes around defence and GK. This killed off any momentum and fast transition on attack. We have bigger problem to score goal now since he is here.
He is no upgrade from DDG at all. In fact, we played better during DDG time with simple long balls.
This guy single handedly dumb us out of CL and ETH never drop him even a game.
I might have misunderstood your post a bit. What I meant is that it's not very accurate in the sense that the formula is complexe and the factors taken into account can be subjective depending on the model. It's not as accurate as a straightforward "completed pass" stat for exemple. But it's true that if done right, it gives you a pretty good idea about a keeper shotstopping skill. As you mentionned you need a decent sample.
It's not perfect though as it doesn't into account things like :
- stops made that the keeper releases/deflects directly on an opponent that subsequently scores
- bad passes or fumbles that brings a goal
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People have made up their minds and will see what they want. There's maybe an argument that a top class keeper keeps the first out by completely snuffing it ( a Pete Schmeichel as an example) but it was absolutely not bad goal keeping. We know onana is good shot stop stopper but not world class.
His world class asset is meant to be his ball playing skills. This is supposed to give us much better control of the football, recycle the ball efficiently and most importantly best the press and get out. This game is a perfect of example of how this because for 70 minutes we completely controlled the game because of his ability. I implore people go rewatch and notice how many times we evaded the west ham press. How many times have we managed to control the game at WH the last few seasons? This did not translate to chances because our forward players somehow manage to make the wrong decision everytime when after that phase of play.
People really need to stop being so miserable and negative about every single player even when they do have a good game!
His world class asset is meant to be his ball playing skills. This is supposed to give us much better control of the football, recycle the ball efficiently and most importantly best the press and get out. This game is a perfect of example of how this because for 70 minutes we completely controlled the game because of his ability. I implore people go rewatch and notice how many times we evaded the west ham press. How many times have we managed to control the game at WH the last few seasons? This did not translate to chances because our forward players somehow manage to make the wrong decision everytime when after that phase of play.
People really need to stop being so miserable and negative about every single player even when they do have a good game!
It won’t tell you where the shots they save end up. Good keepers get the ball out of danger. Onana will push his shots back in to the danger zone.
Let's not forget that his distribution is a major contribution to our devastating attacking moves.(Actually I think he has been doing okay recently, with some good reaction saves, and I hope he will settle and improve).
He's been an extremely disappointing signing, unfortunately.
That's one of the flaws I indicated yeah. If Onana stops a very hard shot and then deflects back to an opponent that scores an unsaveable goal, the 1st shot will improve his PSxG stat a lot while the second will have no influence and in the end, he still conceded a goal.
He's been ok, the right type of goalkeeper that big clubs need and still a step in the right direction for modern day football. His composure with the ball at feet and playing out from the back is genuinely very good.
His sweeping is similar to de Gea, doesn't do it much.
He is much better than de Gea at dealing with high balls, though nothing special in that regard.
Shot stopping obviously he is worse than de Gea. If he can cut out the amateur level mistakes that he's made (mental mistakes more than anything), then that's fine you got a keeper like Ederson.
His sweeping is similar to de Gea, doesn't do it much.
He is much better than de Gea at dealing with high balls, though nothing special in that regard.
Shot stopping obviously he is worse than de Gea. If he can cut out the amateur level mistakes that he's made (mental mistakes more than anything), then that's fine you got a keeper like Ederson.
No, it's not "subjective" because every GK is evaluated against the same model. "Completed passess" stat is accurate but doesn't tell you anything in isolation, PSxG vs goals conceded tells you quite accurately if the GK is a good shotstopper (not goalkeeper!).
Agreed about shots the keeper deflects directly to an opponent, this isn't part of the model and a flaw.
Correct, this is a flaw of the model, but it's still a good one. Even if I agree about the bolded part, it's still nothing more than an "impression". You would need to watch all the gks in all the games to say that Onana is any worse in that regard compared to the "average". It's easier to remember those occasions if you watch your GK regularly, especially if he's facing shitload of shots.
There's clearly an agenda from some. The jury is out on him for sure but he's being blamed for anything and everything right now. He's actually been pretty good in the Premier League in my opinion.
It is though, even if it's evaluated against the same model, the mode itself IS subjective, that's the reason why it changes all the time, or why OPTA sometimes have different xG or PSxG figures than it's competitors for the same game (the difference can be quiet big on occasions). Said model can give more weight to some types of shots that will favor some types of keepers and vice versa. Lets say OPTA considers that a shot masked by a defenders has 80% chances of getting it, but Sportradar gives less weight to the "masked" parameter and considers that it has 70% chances of getting in, then a keeper with great reflexes will have a better PSxG with OPTA's model if he saves that shot, and this can apply differently to any kind of shot.
Not saying it's bad or totally inaccurate, but it is subjective depending on the way the model is built.
I agree with all the criticism and the praise. He's an awkward , largely average keeper, very good with his feet, but because of the coaching and/or shite forwards the good with his feet bit is counting for very little and the awkward averageness is a problem.
Do you see different players in top 5 and bottom 5 on PSxG then, depending on the model selected? Onana is 2nd on OPTA data, comfortably in top 5 so I'd be surprised if a different model shows he's not up there in EPL games.
Which is why you should never trust stats.
I don't have subscritions to various stats providers but I think that even if models are in a way subjective, they're accurate enough give you a good idea of a keeper's performance. There's no reason to think the results will be drastically different and Onana might be 3rd or 1st depending on the model but it won't go from 2nd place to 8th.
Also, "PSxG minus goals allowed" isn't the best stat you can find considering it depends on the amounts of shots the team conceded, adjusted save percentages are more accurate. I don't have this stat unfortunaly but there's no real reason to think Onana would rate badly.
First goal was bad luck. Could have done better, but it also was incredibly unlucky.
Second goal was (like Chelsea’s goal) poor shot-stopping. Which is no surprise cause he is a poor shot-stopper. And when you are a poor shot-stopper, unless you are in an ideal environment that compensates for it (City and Ederson), you are also a poor keeper.
On other words, a position which we needed to upgrade but arguably was not a priority (compared to 2 strikers, a right winger and a controlling midfielder) is now a priority to upgrade.
Second goal was (like Chelsea’s goal) poor shot-stopping. Which is no surprise cause he is a poor shot-stopper. And when you are a poor shot-stopper, unless you are in an ideal environment that compensates for it (City and Ederson), you are also a poor keeper.
On other words, a position which we needed to upgrade but arguably was not a priority (compared to 2 strikers, a right winger and a controlling midfielder) is now a priority to upgrade.
“Bobbins”, no. Onana is not crap, but he’s certainly not exceptional in the PL. Not yet at least. What I see the problem with Onana is that he’s struggling to live up to the hype that brought him to OT. Every mistake, and there admittedly been far more mistakes than most of us expected, are scrutinized and magnified. Like yesterday..,neither of the two goals were his fault, but it’s also not unreasonable to have asked for a better reaction on both. He’s not now nor ever will be the shot stopper that De Gea was, but very few keepers ever will be.
But the valid criticism of Onana has to do with the expectations that his footwork were going to somehow have a “transformational” impact on our attacking play. His footwork is fine, and without any question an upgrade on De Gea. But his footwork not only has had nothing like a transformational impact on our attacking play, we’re clearly weaker in attack now than we were last season, which in no way is Onana’s fault. But it was always fukking delusional to believe the “transformational” hype in the first place.
But no, Onana is not crap…or “bobbins”. If he’s given another 2-3 seasons I have no doubt he’ll adapt to the hot lights of Old Trafford. But so far, holy shit.
But the valid criticism of Onana has to do with the expectations that his footwork were going to somehow have a “transformational” impact on our attacking play. His footwork is fine, and without any question an upgrade on De Gea. But his footwork not only has had nothing like a transformational impact on our attacking play, we’re clearly weaker in attack now than we were last season, which in no way is Onana’s fault. But it was always fukking delusional to believe the “transformational” hype in the first place.
But no, Onana is not crap…or “bobbins”. If he’s given another 2-3 seasons I have no doubt he’ll adapt to the hot lights of Old Trafford. But so far, holy shit.
It’s an impression based on watching football. Even if I only watched United matches in my life I would be able to form the impression he does it a lot. That’s because he does.
Onana is doing well right now, our current struggles have nothing to do with him. Every game we see more press-resistant stuff from him.
Correct. Just keep in mind last season many people thought De Gea is still an amazing shot stopper because he made an "impression" of making unreal saves, but in reality he was bang average shot stopper overall for the last 3-4 years. Onana so far is on DDG best levels, what was the initial point I made to someone making a suggestion that he's "not an upgrade" on Dave.
I do think the numbers are bit in his favour and he will drop closer to average - based on my impression so far he's not a great shot stopper. But maybe he's pulling those numbers because he's positioning himself better etc, I don't know that much about goalkeeping. Anyway, I feel like he's been quite good for us in the league, but in the end if we're losing so many games fans patience is paper thin. Just look at Antony. Is he playing worse than last season? Not really. But fans reaction is very different - because we don't have Rashford pulling us through games. Final result is 80% of the optics. I feel Onana is a victim of that.
He fundamentally lacks world class shot stopping ability. We've been lucky to have keepers with that in abundance: schmeichel, van der saar, de gea. Now we dont, it makes it more obvious why that quality is so important for a utd keeper. We always give the opposition chances and keepers with WC shot stopping ability save us most of the time. Now we dont so we conceed more.
Sorry are you saying onana is as good a shot stopper as ddg was at his best levels?
Thats fecking insane. He isn't close