Olympics boxing controversy - IBA bans lifted on Lin and Khelif by IOC

[JPRouve]

Can someone explain how you can fail a test saying you’re a female athlete and then not fail a test a year later?

Genuine enquiry here like what is the science of it?

Are we talking about the same test? A testosterone test doesn't say if you are a male or a female.

 

[Mike Smalling]

If you go by the Italian boxers statement, it wasn't some political act to withdraw. She says she's never been punched that hard before.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

She's a woman and as far as we know she was a girl baby before that.

Is her biochemistry (and maybe internal organ structure) typically female - maybe not. Her chromosones may be more like a typical man. We don't know. We think that we know her current testosterone level is below the 2020 IOC standard.

That's why it's a particularly cruel situation and not one that should really be played at out in what's likely to be a highly politicised click hungry and ever angry twitter world.

Good post. Which will likely be ignored by those who want to be angry about this.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

You asked the wrong question.

I think people just overcomplicate simple questions and blame the person who asked the question. If you don’t know, just say pal

She's a woman and as far as we know she was a girl baby before that.

Is her biochemistry (and maybe internal organ structure) typically female - maybe not. Her chromosones may be more like a typical man. We don't know. We think that we know her current testosterone level is below the 2020 IOC standard.

That's why it's a particularly cruel situation and not one that should really be played at out in what's likely to be a highly politicised click hungry and ever angry twitter world.

I don’t think it should be played out this way no. But it doesn’t sound like she has anything to hide either

I think if you asked the question of are they classified by sex as male you might get a different answer?

If we reverse time 100 years ago to when people didn’t get to choose what they are, would it be a man or a woman ?

 

[SilentWitness]

If you go by the Italian boxers statement, it wasn't some political act to withdraw. She says she's never been punched that hard before.

That doesn't really mean anything. The Algerian boxer has a 9-5 record so it's not like they're a superhuman puncher. They're beatable and withstandable.

 

[klsv]

Man punches woman in the face.

How the feck is Khelif allowed anywhere near women’s boxing ….fecking disgusting!

All women boxers should simply refuse to fight him.

Have you read this thread? If not, maybe try to once you calm down a bit.

 

[JPRouve]

She's a woman and as far as we know she was a girl baby before that.

Is her biochemistry (and maybe internal organ structure) typically female - maybe not. Her chromosones may be more like a typical man. We don't know. We think that we know her current testosterone level is below the 2020 IOC standard.

That's why it's a particularly cruel situation and not one that should really be played at out in what's likely to be a highly politicised click hungry and ever angry twitter world.

And to add to this the average testosterone levels between a male and female are worlds apart, it's possible that she was tested beyond the normal limits for a female while not even reaching the average minimum for a male.

 

[Schmiznurf]

If you go by the Italian boxers statement, it wasn't some political act to withdraw. She says she's never been punched that hard before.

I read that she thinks her nose was broken, don't think many boxers would continue with a broken nose tbh.

 

[BD]

Man punches woman in the face.

How the feck is Khelif allowed anywhere near women’s boxing ….fecking disgusting!

All women boxers should simply refuse to fight him.

You haven't a clue really

 

[JPRouve]

I think people just overcomplicate simple questions and blame the person who asked the question. If you don’t know, just say pal

I answered your question as simply as it can be. I just pointed out that your conclusion to that answer doesn't match your question. And since you didn't want terms, I respected your request.

So again, she isn't a man.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

I answered your question as simply as it can be. I just pointed out that your conclusion to that answer doesn't match your question. And since you didn't want terms, I respected your request.

So again, she isn't a man.

So again. Why the controversy then?

 

[V.O.]

I think people just overcomplicate simple questions and blame the person who asked the question. If you don’t know, just say pal

Aye, and some people like oversimplifying complex issues.

 

[Mike Smalling]

That doesn't really mean anything. The Algerian boxer has a 9-5 record so it's not like they're a superhuman puncher. They're beatable and withstandable.

Thats quite interesting. She could still have a physical advantage though. Fallon Fox, who is openly trans, also lost fights against cis women in MMA.

 

[JPRouve]

So again. Why the controversy then?

For someone that don't want terms, you seemingly really want them. Her chromosomes could be one of a male and she failed a testosterone test. She is a woman but she could be a male or intersex.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

There was quite a bit of pressure on her (from what I could see online) to boycott this fight. I was looking forward to it purely to see if she would fight or not. I feel sorry for both fighters to be honest. This is a crazy situation.

In trying to appease and do "the right thing" the organisers have made it 10x worse.

 

[Schmiznurf]

So again. Why the controversy then?

Because people saw elevated testosterone levels and decided she was a man despite there being a few female-born athletes with the same.

 

[Jippy]

I read that she thinks her nose was broken, don't think many boxers would continue with a broken nose tbh.

Loads or even most do, I'd imagine, but not in such unusual circumstances.

 

[JPRouve]

Loads or even most do, I'd imagine, but not in such unusual circumstances.

Yeah, the ones that wouldn't are the exception.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

Aye, and some people like oversimplifying complex issues.

And yet nobody could explain how I was “oversimplifying” it..

The below reply is the only one who helped..

Because people saw elevated testosterone levels and decided she was a man despite there being a few female-born athletes with the same.

Ok thanks. So if she had the exact same condition(?) but was 5 foot and built like a woman, there would be no controversy?

 

[SilentWitness]

You don’t even know the meaning of the word.

What part of “man punches woman in the face” do you not understand?

Please explain how they are a man?

 

[VorZakone]

Full quotes from Carini:

“I am heartbroken,” said Carini. “I went to the ring to honour my father. I was told a lot of times that I was a warrior but I preferred to stop for my health. I have never felt a punch like this.

“I got into the ring and did my duty as a boxer and tried to fight irrespective of any controversy or anything else. I wanted to win. After the second one [blow to the nose] I couldn’t breathe anymore. I went to my coach and said ‘enough’ because it takes maturity and courage to stop. I didn’t feel like fighting anymore.”

 

[SilentWitness]

He’s already failed 2 gender tests ….what more do you need?

Ah, so you've just seen something without actually looking into the intricacies of said tests and situations. As someone else mentioned, you'd do well to read through the thread instead of acting like a twat.

 

[Duafc]

Ah, so you've just seen something without actually looking into the intricacies of said tests and situations. As someone else mentioned, you'd do well to read through the thread instead of acting like a twat.

Acting is generous.

 

[Carolina Red]

If we reverse time 100 years ago to when people didn’t get to choose what they are, would it be a man or a woman ?

Way to completely miss the point

 

[JPRouve]

Way to completely miss the point

It's kind of amusing because it leads to the same answer, which I suspect isn't the preferred one.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

Way to completely miss the point

It's kind of amusing because it leads to the same answer, which I suspect isn't the preferred one.

I really, genuinely, don't understand. And am trying to understand. It's little wonder these things become such a "thing" when everyone is on the defensive all the time and people who ask questions about it get mocked or ridiculed

But if it helps you feel better, then fine.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

It's kind of amusing because it leads to the same answer, which I suspect isn't the preferred one.

Just your assumption with no evidence whatsoever

 

[JPRouve]

I really, genuinely, don't understand. And am trying to understand. It's little wonder these things become such a "thing" when everyone is on the defensive all the time and people who ask questions about it get mocked or ridiculed

But if it helps you feel better, then fine.

Let's be clear, you are the one who asked a question with the caveat that "terms" shouldn't be used, I answered your question and also told you that it was the wrong question because it is but since from the start you didn't want to actually understand, I didn't impose anything on you.

The question is whether she is a male, a female or something inbetween. Your insistence on asking whether she is a man or a woman is just strange when we already told you what the problem is. I gave you the entire answer 50 minutes ago but you are still pretending that it didn't happen.

 

[JPRouve]

Just your assumption with no evidence whatsoever

Well, I gave you the answer 50 minutes ago, other posters have done the same thing but you keep asking the same question which will lead to the same answer. So unless you are fishing for a different answer, I don't know what you are doing.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

Let's be clear, you are the one who asked a question with the caveat that "terms" shouldn't be used, I answered your question and also told you that it was the wrong question because it is but since from the start you didn't want to actually understand, I didn't impose anything on you.

The question is whether she is a male, a female or something inbetween. Your insistence on asking whether she is a man or a woman is just strange when we already told you what the problem is. I gave you the entire answer 50 minutes ago but you are still pretending that it didn't happen.

Okay I worded the question poorly. You win whatever it is you're trying to win

If you wish to use whatever you need to use to answer what I am trying to understand, you may. If not, then don't. Nobody on here seems to know, so by probability that extends to yourself too.

 

[JPRouve]

Okay I worded the question poorly. You win whatever it is you're trying to win

If you wish to use whatever you need to use to answer what I am trying to understand, you may. If not, then don't. Nobody on here seems to know, so by probability that extends to yourself too.

You see that's problem, we already told you what the problem is. But for some reason you reject it and claims that nobody on here seems to know, that's why I said that you are seemingly fishing for a different answer.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

You see that's problem, we already told you what the problem is. But for some reason you reject it and claims that nobody on here seems to know, that's why I said that you are seemingly fishing for a different answer.

"Her chromosomes could be one of a male and she failed a testosterone test. She is a woman but she could be a male or intersex."

I'm sure you're a much smarter person than me and the above makes sense to you. It doesn't make any to me. Really am just trying to understand but stuff like that is just random words in a random order. To you, I'm likely a lost cause but if anyone else can simplify it or cut through the nonsense then all i really want to know is what sex the boxer is. Why people are calling her male when she supposedly isn't.

 

[VorZakone]

Anyway, Carini doesn't seem to explicitly "blame" Khelif. If she is fine with Khelif as an opponent and she just feels she was too injured to continue, she could say that. It would take away the controversy insofar it's possible.

 

[antk]

"Her chromosomes could be one of a male and she failed a testosterone test. She is a woman but she could be a male or intersex."

I'm sure you're a much smarter person than me and the above makes sense to you. It doesn't make any to me. Really am just trying to understand but stuff like that is just random words in a random order. To you, I'm likely a lost cause but if anyone else can simplify it or cut through the nonsense then all i really want to know is what sex the boxer is. Why people are calling her male when she supposedly isn't.

I am not sure what's your definition of "sex" but we genuinely don't know whether the boxer is trans or cis. We do know however that people are saying she is trans because they are mean weirdos that cling onto the fact she has failed some boxing-specific gender tests, that we don't know the details of.

That does not mean she is not a woman nor guarantees she is trans. We have had cis women disqualified from women sports due to abnormal testosterone levels before.

 

[JPRouve]

"Her chromosomes could be one of a male and she failed a testosterone test. She is a woman but she could be a male or intersex."

I'm sure you're a much smarter person than me and the above makes sense to you. It doesn't make any to me. Really am just trying to understand but stuff like that is just random words in a random order. To you, I'm likely a lost cause but if anyone else can simplify it or cut through the nonsense then all i really want to know is what sex the boxer is. Why people are calling her male when she supposedly isn't.

Man and woman are genders, male and female a sexes. Her gender since birth is a girl/woman but some people happens to be inbetween or have the wrong gender-sex associations due to disorders of sex development.

So as stated previously she is a woman and until proven otherwise a female but it is possible that she is in fact a male or inbetween. There has been two tests done one from a controversial organization which led to an alleged XY(male) result and an other one where she failed a testosterone test which isn't something that will indicate your sex, it could just be doping or a natural yet abnormally high level.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

"Her chromosomes could be one of a male and she failed a testosterone test. She is a woman but she could be a male or intersex."

I'm sure you're a much smarter person than me and the above makes sense to you. It doesn't make any to me. Really am just trying to understand but stuff like that is just random words in a random order. To you, I'm likely a lost cause but if anyone else can simplify it or cut through the nonsense then all i really want to know is what sex the boxer is. Why people are calling her male when she supposedly isn't.

Because nobody knows!

She allegedly has XY chromosomes. Which are the chromosomes you would see in a biological male (females are XX) But very very occasionally a person is born with XY chromosome but female external genitalia (labia only, no cock and balls). So they are brought up as female, despite having male chromosomes. People think this might be the case because she was allegedly declared female at birth but allegedly was found to have XY chromosomes when tested by the boxing commission.

She has also previously allegedly been found to have high levels of testosterone, for a woman. A sex hormone that is in men and women but much higher in men. It causes male physical characteristics : hair, muscle mass etc That could be due to her having XY chromosomes, or some other reason. A biological woman with freakishly high natural levels, or a biological woman who is doping (taking testosterone injections)

Does that clear it all up?!

 

[RedC]

I think people just overcomplicate simple questions and blame the person who asked the question. If you don’t know, just say pal

I don’t think it should be played out this way no. But it doesn’t sound like she has anything to hide either

If we reverse time 100 years ago to when people didn’t get to choose what they are, would it be a man or a woman ?

You're really making a run at the worst poster of the year award, aren't you.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

we genuinely don't know whether the boxer is trans or cis.

That's pretty much all I needed to know. Wasn't sure what the controversy was. I assumed they'd have to declare if they are trans before entering a sports competition, never mind the Olympics.

Do you have an idea what would happen if she got proved trans but had declared she wasn't?

Man and woman are genders, male and female a sexes. Her gender since birth is a girl/woman but some people happens to be inbetween or have the wrong gender-sex associations due to disorders of sex development.

So as stated previously she is a woman and until proven otherwise a female but it is possible that she is in fact a male or inbetween. There has been two tests done one from a controversial organization which led to an alleged XY(male) result and an other one where she failed a testosterone test which isn't something that will indicate your sex, it could just be doping or a natural yet abnormally high level.

Ok thanks. All very tough for me to get my head around and when I try to ask genuine questions to educate myself a lot of the time people seem to get annoyed at me, or talk down to me. Not saying that's you, but it can be frustrating when all I'm trying to do is learn.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

Because nobody knows!

She allegedly has XY chromosomes. Which are the chromosomes you would see in a biological male (females are XX) But very very occasionally a person is born with XY chromosome but female external genitalia (labia only, no cock and balls). So they are brought up as female, despite having male chromosomes. People think this might be the case because she was allegedly declared female at birth but allegedly was found to have XY chromosomes when tested by the boxing commission.

She has also previously allegedly been found to have high levels of testosterone, for a woman. A sex hormone that is in men and women but much higher in men. It causes male physical characteristics : hair, muscle mass etc That could be due to her having XY chromosomes, or some other reason. A biological woman with freakishly high natural levels, or a biological woman who is doping (taking testosterone injections)

Does that clear it all up?!

A lot to take in, but yes. Appreciated.

You're really making a run at the worst poster of the year award, aren't you.

I think you're mistaking someone trying to educate and better himself with someone who is being rude and sarcastic because intent doesn't always translate well in the written word such as a message board.

Anything else?

 

[JPRouve]

Ok thanks. All very tough for me to get my head around and when I try to ask genuine questions to educate myself a lot of the time people seem to get annoyed at me, or talk down to me. Not saying that's you, but it can be frustrating when all I'm trying to do is learn.

Maybe the following can help you understand where these questions can come from.