Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Good post.

It’s an absolutely awful post. “Any sensible fan”.

 

[hobbers]

Because it’s convenient to leave out a record breaking winning streak because it doesn’t suit a narrative.
As I said yesterday, if we really want to be sensationalist then why not just go with the good old “0% win ratio this calendar year” instead?

Yeah but those wins came under zero pressure when he didn't have to do any coaching, and none of the players thought he was going to be permanent manager.

 

[dove]

Like honestly I find myself one day 'Ole in' because of the rebuilding thing because he seems to be on the right path -
Then the next match when we don't require it, he completely wrecks the tactics, the line up, any confidence and form of the players and changes everything and people wonder why we end up drawing or losing.

Then I find myself back at Ole out.

That's why I think this is just pure Guess work, Ole doesn't know what he is doing, he doesn't have a plan - he loves the club & has the right intention but doesn't have the right tactics or the right ideas to implent it here.

I kind of get it and then I kind of don't. I firmly believe that the club's vision or rebuilding (I think our board invented this term to justify our failures and buy some time) shouldn't depend on the manager, and should not stop when the manager is gone. The club should have its vision of how we want to play, what type of players we want to sign etc and hire managers accordingly. This way when the manager is doing a terrible job like Ole does, even if we sack him and replace with someone else, the new manager will simply continue the work. I don't understand the point some people are making that we can't sack Ole until he finishes his 3 year rebuilding masterplan. We can, and we should because now we are simply wasting our time. I am not necessarily saying that we should hire first available manager right now. But for example if we are seriously considering Poch and we think he is the right fit, there is absolutely no point in delaying it because he is in a different league compared to Ole. 2 of the biggest reasons of our failures are a) club's complete lack of vision and it's clear seeing how we constantly hire completely different style managers and b) our fans' obsession with defending our manager no matter what. We lowered our expectations so much for Ole that a win against the likes of Norwich is being seen as a massive 3 points.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

The problem is not the transition of the club - it's the poor decision he makes

Why play Lingard at CAM when pereira has come in to some decent form at CAM and Lingard has struggled for over a year?

Why take Greenwood off at RW playing next to Rashford & Martial when he looks like the final piece of the attack that we have been missing for over a decade and scoring nearly a goal a game and is nearly a fresh player this season to atleast start 45 mins in that game to scare arsenal off?

Why break Williams form when he hardly has a bad game when Shaw seems to hardly have an average game himself?

Why start the season off by selling our best and most consistent defender for the last 5 years over multiple different managers and different tactics including possession and counterattacking in Smalling - only to lengthen contracts of defenders like Jones.

Why not give Rojo & Maguire a chance or maybe Tuenzebe if Lindelof makes a mistake - why not give Romero a chance when De gea is officially making the most mistakes in the Premier league?

Even if the guy is leaving - why not try out Gomes more in his best position over players like mata & Lingard to see if he can be useful in matches?

Like why?

Why such poor choices?

I like the whole rebuilding thing - I honestly do, but all the bad decisions I just can't stand it & it just makes me believe that he is guessing what to do than having a plan what to do.

I am not a fan of Ole, but can understand most of his call regarding picking players.

Pereira has also been poor in attacking midfield. Lingard have played in our biggest wins against Spurs, City and Chelsea.

James has played pretty well and them rotating makes sense. Based on recent form Greenwood has been better, but they both have different qualities.

Willams defending has not always been great and Shaw has had some good games too. Although against Arsenal Williams could have played over Shaw.

Buying Maguire and selling Smalling was a poor move. I think it is hard to defend that move unless we had 100 million more to spend on the positions we needed the most, but we didn't do that.

Rojo played a few games before and looked ok. Although then got an injury. Tuanzebe has not looked good when he played and doesn't seem good enough to start for us.

Gomez is probably not good enough to start just like Chong. Unlike Greenwood they have not impressed enough when given chances.

Selling Lukaku without getting another striker is his biggest error though. Not improving the attacking midfield is the second biggest one in my opinion.

 

[LJJT]

Why should it allow for those 3 months?

Cos he was the man in charge.

 

[red4ever 79]

 

[crossy1686]

Yeah but those wins came under zero pressure when he didn't have to do any coaching, and none of the players thought he was going to be permanent manager.

So those wins don’t count? The PSG match was pressure free? Tottenham away was pressure free? They were anything but. Solskjaer was auditioning for a job he wanted and the players wants to make the top 4. There’s no such thing as a pressure free game at United, we expect to win every match. If anything, away to Rochdale is more pressure than home to City for us.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I kind of get it and then I kind of don't. I firmly believe that the club's vision or rebuilding (I think our board invented this term to justify our failures and buy some time) shouldn't depend on the manager, and should not stop when the manager is gone. The club should have its vision of how we want to play, what type of players we want to sign etc and hire managers accordingly. This way when the manager is doing a terrible job like Ole does, even if we sack him and replace with someone else, the new manager will simply continue the work. I don't understand the point some people are making that we can't sack Ole until he finishes his 3 year rebuilding masterplan. We can, and we should because now we are simply wasting our time. I am not necessarily saying that we should hire first available manager right now. But for example if we are seriously considering Poch and we think he is the right fit, there is absolutely no point in delaying it because he is in a different league compared to Ole. 2 of the biggest reasons of our failures are a) club's complete lack of vision and it's clear seeing how we constantly hire completely different style managers and b) our fans' obsession with defending our manager no matter what. We lowered our expectations so much for Ole that a win against the likes of Norwich is being seen as a massive 3 points.

Now this is “sensible”.

Other clubs switch managers and often almost seamlessly. One big plus for us is this much spoken about transfer board, it should ensure that we have continuity there whoever is sat in the hot seat.

Some fans think sacking Ole is a case of ripping it up and starting again and well, it absolutely shouldn’t be.

 

[JPRouve]

I don't really understand why people are arguing about the first three months. Logically no one should care, if a player scores 5 goals in his first five games and then scores nothing in the next 30, no one sensible will point at the first five games. What matters to the club is the current dynamic and what the future holds, I could understand if people used December as a sign of things changing but the first 2 months are totally irrelevant to what we should do today and tomorrow.

 

[crossy1686]

Going back to the smiling thing... is it not quite obvious that the gauky smile is actually one of his nervous twitches?

I bet that's why he overreacted to RVP's comments as well, he's quite sensitive about it.

I read it as embarrassment. He was embarrassed and angry by the performance but what can he actually say without losing the dressing room? It’s a tough one really. He’s the one that has to face the media while the players and the board sneak out the back door.

 

[crossy1686]

I don't really understand why people are arguing about the first three months. Logically no one should care, if a player scores 5 goals in his first five games and then scores nothing in the next 30, no one sensible will point at the first five games. What matters to the club is the current dynamic and what the future holds, I could understand if people used December as a sign of things changing but the first 2 months are totally irrelevant to what we should do today and tomorrow.

I don’t think anyone is doing that. This win ratio stat keeps appearing but it doesn’t factor in a win streak, which is sensationalist. For some reason people have to go to extremes to prove a point when in reality if they just checked the actual win ration including those games as interim manager, they would see it’s still equally damming in comparison to our other managers.

 

[passing-wind]

People see what they want to see. I love Ole but we're regressing. Ole pushed a lot of players out that we thought needed to leave, and brought in some players that we thought are better, but here we are, so what was the point?

In which top club in europe does a manager get a pass for a year and a half without making any progress? None. Ole already deemed this season a season of discovering what we need to do next.

Some fans are so caught in the romance of it all, god knows I was, but this club is too big to be this mediocre. We don't have a director of football, which means having a top experienced manager is a must to compensate for that, instead we have a very inexperienced manager at a time that needed so much rebuilding. I don't think it's inevitable that he fails, but the whole thing is a recipe for failure, we aren't set up to succeed.

So great you have seen sense and been able to think rationally. As I've said in previous posts a manager who's doing his job gives teams an edge. If Lampard leaves Chelsea they will miss something, if Rodgers leaves Leicester they will miss something, the same for Klopp / Guardiola. If Solskjaer leaves this United side what do we miss ? I fail to see anything conclusive in a year of management that Ole offers as a coach to this team. We are playing freestyle football, no organisation in defence, no identity in possession, no meaningful attacking shape. I dare any fan to tell me that Solskjaer is not a defensive orientated manager.

Funnily enough my problem with Ole is not short term but long term. I fail to see what players we bring in that will make a difference to the fortunes of our results. Solskjaer has failed with 200 million investment this summer he will certainly fail with more money. The club's too big for him. I'm not saying we need a 'been there done it' leader, but we need someone with more pedigree to steer this team to success. All the managers doing well have cultivated the development of their teams overtime we are more inconsistent as the weeks to by.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

So those wins don’t count? The PSG match was pressure free? Tottenham away was pressure free?

Funny you mention PSG because first and foremost we were horrific there and 2 of the biggest “heroes” of that night have already been moved on in the masterplan.

Ole has made his team worse since taking over, but the likes of you are completely blind to it because you’re somehow certain it’s right for the future.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

I don’t think anyone is doing that. This win ratio stat keeps appearing but it doesn’t factor in a win streak, which is sensationalist. For some reason people have to go to extremes to prove a point when in reality if they just checked the actual win ration including those games as interim manager, they would see it’s still equally damming in comparison to our other managers.

You're right. His overall win percentage is 50% now - 30 wins from 60. However, it's a shock stat when you consider we won 14 of his first 17 games in charge meaning we've won 16 in the last 43 games.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I don’t think anyone is doing that. This win ratio stat keeps appearing but it doesn’t factor in a win streak, which is sensationalist. For some reason people have to go to extremes to prove a point when in reality if they just checked the actual win ration including those games as interim manager, they would see it’s still equally damming in comparison to our other managers.

I think JP is right though, if a new striker joins Chelsea from say PSV and scores 14 in 14, but then for the following 10 months scores 4 in 40 , we’d laugh our heads off if someone was claiming he was a 1 goal every 3 games striker.

At some point you have to accept that the start was a bounce and had much more to do with Mourinho being gone than Ole being manager.

 

[Bebestation]

I kind of get it and then I kind of don't. I firmly believe that the club's vision or rebuilding (I think our board invented this term to justify our failures and buy some time) shouldn't depend on the manager, and should not stop when the manager is gone. The club should have its vision of how we want to play, what type of players we want to sign etc and hire managers accordingly. This way when the manager is doing a terrible job like Ole does, even if we sack him and replace with someone else, the new manager will simply continue the work. I don't understand the point some people are making that we can't sack Ole until he finishes his 3 year rebuilding masterplan. We can, and we should because now we are simply wasting our time. I am not necessarily saying that we should hire first available manager right now. But for example if we are seriously considering Poch and we think he is the right fit, there is absolutely no point in delaying it because he is in a different league compared to Ole. 2 of the biggest reasons of our failures are a) club's complete lack of vision and it's clear seeing how we constantly hire completely different style managers and b) our fans' obsession with defending our manager no matter what. We lowered our expectations so much for Ole that a win against the likes of Norwich is being seen as a massive 3 points.

For me the love for Ole right now is happening because he is doing what SAF did & as many have said - he was a dual DOF & Manager.

Ole however is only a 75% a DOF & 75% a Manager in terms of competency whilst SAF was sitting at 100% at both you could argue.

I don't doubt that he is what we need - because ultimately he is doing both bits of work, dealing with the building of the squads, long term planning aswell as tactics and in game decisions - yet just because Ole does both jobs for us does that mean we should not wonder if there is a better match out there for us?

I think there is.

He just knows the DOF stuff more because he is an ex player here & that's what people are excited about. The poor management side is what is showing though & is what's going to keep showing unfortunately.

I've had this conversation before - I guarantee you that if Nicky Butt took over United that he would do no no worse planning this United transition than Ole - because all it is is a manager wrapped to do a DOF's role as well.

 

[Anustart89]

I don’t think anyone is doing that. This win ratio stat keeps appearing but it doesn’t factor in a win streak, which is sensationalist. For some reason people have to go to extremes to prove a point when in reality if they just checked the actual win ration including those games as interim manager, they would see it’s still equally damming in comparison to our other managers.

I'd agree with you if there were any indications of that win streak coming back. It's like saying "well how can you criticise Lingard for his goal and assistless last year when he scored and assisted quite a bit before that?

The longer time goes on, the more obvious it becomes that these results are the norm with Ole, and not the ones in the beginning. Him being appointed permanent manager serves as a much better cut-off point than our first loss.

 

[mu4c_20le]

I think JP is right though, if a new striker joins Chelsea from say PSV and scores 14 in 14, but then for the following 10 months scores 4 in 40 , we’d laugh our heads off if someone was claiming he was a 1 goal every 3 games striker.

At some point you have to accept that the start was a bounce and had much more to do with Mourinho being gone than Ole being manager.

The problem is that those 14 are games on loan, and people are only counting the 40 after he signed permanently. If you don't see that as fecked up, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[JPRouve]

I don’t think anyone is doing that. This win ratio stat keeps appearing but it doesn’t factor in a win streak, which is sensationalist. For some reason people have to go to extremes to prove a point when in reality if they just checked the actual win ration including those games as interim manager, they would see it’s still equally damming in comparison to our other managers.

First I want to make the point that this applies in favor or against the manager and secondly, the reason you put qualifiers is that the 50% winning ratio has no meaning over that period of time, that type of stats are only worth it on the long term. In a 12 months period it's a lot more relevant to divide things by trimesters or semesters, it gives you an idea of the dynamic. In the case of Ole we have 1 great trimester followed by three dreadful ones.

Now I don't think that people should cut off the first three months, it's dishonest, I think that people should use the entire period and show that the dynamic is negative and that for some reason the first three months are outliers.

 

[Foxbatt]

My issues with him are different also added to what most are saying. He is trying to play a way where the players are not capable of doing so. You do not do that. You design a system where the players can play and then get new players to change the style. His way seems to be counter attacking. His game understanding is zero. Look at the Arsenal game. They started to over load our right yet he did not instruct Lingard to cover Xhaka. That is where we conceded our first goal. Xhaka on the left and switching to Ozli in the inside right position where there was no one around him. And you simply cannot play with two midfield players. Yes and he should have played Pereira instead of Lingard. I would play even Jones in midfield and push Fred into the CAM position instead of playing Lingard.
As for the PSG game I think it was one of the less pressure games we played. No one gave us a chance to even draw the match. And yes PSG missed so many sitters too they could have been 5 goals to the good.

 

[izec]

Ole's win ratio should just be seen as this season and be done with it. He had enough time to get his team playing his style and had a transfer window. I dont know what his win ratio this season is though.

My issue with the Ole believers is that the team will never be good enough to them. We wont have 11 world class players, you have to make some and improve the squad partially via coaching, something i dont see him doing.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

The problem is that those 14 are games on loan, and people are only counting the 40 after he signed permanently. If you don't see that as fecked up, I don't know what to tell you.

I’m not sure I get your point?

I mean if we got a player on loan who impressed massively up until he signed permanent, then his form fell off a cliff for 10 months... we’d be an unhappy bunch right?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Ole's win ratio should just be seen as this season and be done with it. He had enough time to get his team playing his style and had a transfer window. I dont know what his win ratio this season is though.

My issue with the Ole believers is that the team will never be good enough to them

His PL win ratio this season is 38% I believe.

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

If only football was that simple right?

No it is. It really really fecking is. Ole has supposedly upgraded the squad and shifted deadwood. So why can't he come even remotely close to putting a run of wins together when it was a piece of piss for him with the deadwood and without Three new signings?

 

[izec]

His PL win ratio this season is 38% I believe.

yeah, 38% and 51.6 % including Europa League, Fa Cup and League Cup

 

[Forevergiggs1]

Your preaching to the converted my friend.

Sadly the masses lust for a new manager, they don’t even know which manager, anybody will do and it will in their eyes be so much better. So naive it’s untrue.

Any manager in world football would struggle with this side. That’s why I wrote this season off before it started and instead focussed my attention to other areas rather than purely league position.

Can't stand Mourinho but what he said about Ole is true. "3 year contract, the future, young players at a giant club is fantastic."

Ole and the board have lowered expectations so much that a win against a midtable club is seen as a huge step forward. It seems all anyone has to do is come in, leave us with next to no depth while talking about a long term plan, youth, traditions and values and not have to show anything sustainable on the pitch. Or does that only apply to Ole?

 

[Berbasbullet]

I love the guy, but when I listen to him talk in press conferences I can’t help but worry he doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

Hope I am wrong, proper desperate for him to turn things around.

 

[mu4c_20le]

I’m not sure I get your point?

I mean if we got a player on loan who impressed massively up until he signed permanent, then his form fell off a cliff for 10 months... we’d be an unhappy bunch right?

It's not wrong to be unhappy, the problem that was being pointed out was that people were ignoring the loan/caretaker period entirely when posting skewed stats to make their point. It's petty, and unnecessary.

 

[U99ted]

Because it’s convenient to leave out a record breaking winning streak because it doesn’t suit a narrative.
As I said yesterday, if we really want to be sensationalist then why not just go with the good old “0% win ratio this calendar year” instead?

It's not about a narrative, it's about looking at where we are.

We had a winning streak, but overall the late season collapse meant he took us from 6th... to 6th.

This season we haven't had a consistent run of results or performances, and we are currently 5th. We're closer to 10th placed Arsenal and a newly promoted Sheffield United, than 4th place Chelsea (who haven't been very good). Never mind the gap to Leicester & Man City.

 

[jem]

Yeah but those wins came under zero pressure when he didn't have to do any coaching, and none of the players thought he was going to be permanent manager.

I'm as sceptical of Ole as the next fan, but that's a very convenient assumption that you have made. How can you say there was zero pressure? We've seen with Ljungberg what happens when a club legend comes in and doesn't get the immediate, new manager bounce.

 

[ravi2]

If someone can get Jeff Bezos or Bill Gates to buy us then I'm all for it. Sadly unlikely.

Saudis seem most likely. Glazers are killing the club and a takeover is only way we get rid of their puppet, Woodward. Surely he's have to lose his job if they buy the club. In fact I'd be okayed with them beheading him personally. The useless cant deserves it.

The issue is with Bezos, Gates or a far east conglomerate is that they will want a return on their investment at some point and the only people that can buy the club then inject another 500m+ in players and stadium renovations and not worry about a return are the Saudi's or Qataris.

 

[Giggsyking]

17 matches in December and January, a game every 3 days. Yet we enter the season with only 3 midfielders, one of them does not want to be here. The strange thing is, we have only two midfielders and the novice one cant convince the board of adding an emergency midfielder in Jan. The "right player" must be available, i.e Longshaft and Can.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

We've seen with Ljungberg what happens when a club legend comes in and doesn't get the immediate, new manager bounce.

I laughed at Ince at the time but all the evidence has since proven him bang on the money, United's squad had finished second and within a few months Mourinho had made that dressing room the most uncomfortable place in England.
It's clear to see now that our bounce had little to do with Ole, I'm sure Phelan or Giggs would've gotten the same, it had everything to do with decent players being rid of Mourinho and actually enjoying coming to work again.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

I have to say it did make me chuckle when Ole did come out of the dugout. He lifts his hand and either the player he wants to talk to either doesn't hear him or ignores him but Ole is left there with his hand in the air, looks at it, puts it down and without saying a word goes back to the dugout.

 

[astracrazy]

I'm as sceptical of Ole as the next fan, but that's a very convenient assumption that you have made. How can you say there was zero pressure? We've seen with Ljungberg what happens when a club legend comes in and doesn't get the immediate, new manager bounce.

But there was zero pressure. When Old came on "loan" the season was a write off, top 4 had gone and there looked no hope from the Champions League. Ole was just coming in till the end of the season only. A DOF and new manager was to be found for the new season.

The team reacted and performed fantastic for a period of games, which I think had more to do with the Jose period ending and the reigns coming off than Ole's coaching (because even during that period his tactics and subs looked subpar). That then put us in the hunt with a chance for top 4 and Ole got the job which changed everything, it then put the pressure on and things changed from there.

The excuses then came in that the team wasn't fit enough and that all would be solved with a pre-season. I personally have seen little difference and its been a shit show.

 

[Daft Lad]

My question is even simpler. Is Ole getting the best out of the squad?

1. No he is underperforming they are better than the league position
2. Yes he is, the league position, performance and results are just about right
3. Yes and more. He's over-achieving and squeezing every bit of performance out of the squad and then some.

I believe it's firmly one.

 

[el3mel]

I laughed at Ince at the time but all the evidence has since proven him bang on the money, United's squad had finished second and within a few months Mourinho had made that dressing room the most uncomfortable place in England.
It's clear to see now that our bounce had little to do with Ole, I'm sure Phelan or Giggs would've gotten the same, it had everything to do with decent players being rid of Mourinho and actually enjoying coming to work again.

Don't call me crazy but I actually bet Giggs would have done better as United manager if he was hired post Mourinho and got the same time Ole has been getting as permanent manager. Not that I was for giving him the job at any time or anything, but actually think he would have done better here. Ole has set the bar very low anyway.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Don't call me crazy but I actually bet Giggs would have done better as United manager if he was hired post Mourinho and got the same time Ole has been getting as permanent manager. Not that I was for giving him the job at any time or anything, but actually think he would have done better here. Ole has set the bar very low anyway.

It's neither here nor there though, the only thing I would say is that I'd be amazed if Giggs hadn't done at least as well this season. I'm certain Giggs can spot a player (apparently James was his call) and I'm certain Giggs and a whole host of others managers and ex players would've green lighted Maguire and AWB and that they would have a bare minimum of a 38% Premier League win-ratio.

That's what confuses me most about those so firmly in the camp of giving Ole a few years, he's done absolutely nothing so far that you would'nt expect as a bare minimum if Giggs, Carrick, Roy Keane or Bryan Robson were managing us. You'd have to do some mental gymnastics to suggest these guys wouldn't fancy the England centre half and that what? they'd somehow have these players with a 25% win rate?

 

[el3mel]

It's neither here nor there though, the only thing I would say is that I'd be amazed if Giggs hadn't done at least as well this season. I'm certain Giggs can spot a player (apparently James was his call) and I'm certain Giggs and a whole host of others managers and ex players would've green lighted Maguire and AWB and that they would have a bare minimum of a 38% Premier League win-ratio.

That's what confuses me most about those so firmly in the camp of giving Ole a few years, he's done absolutely nothing so far that you would'nt expect as a bare minimum if Giggs, Carrick, Roy Keane or Bryan Robson were managing us. You'd have to do some mental gymnastics to suggest these guys wouldn't fancy the England centre half and that what? they'd somehow have these players with a 25% win rate?

Agree. I don't see anything miraculous so far in this mythical Ole's project some are selling. All I'm seeing is we're getting minimum or less then minimum from the squad through out the season. The summer market wasn't anything spectacular, football has been mostly poor bar pretty few games and results are less than the minimum you would expect from any United manager. Where's the selling points of Ole's project that justifies keeping him in the job if he fails to get a CL spot at least, I really don't see them.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Agree. I don't see anything miraculous so far in this mythical Ole's project some are selling. All I'm seeing is we're getting minimum or less then minimum from the squad through out the season. The summer market wasn't anything spectacular, football has been mostly poor bar pretty few games and results are less than the minimum you would expect from any United manager. Where's the selling points of Ole's project that justifies keeping him in the job if he fails to get a CL spot at least, I really don't see them.

Me neither. I'd have fired him after Watford, however after the recovery and due to an overall decent December the timing is wrong now, but if he drops to a long distance from 4th again I'd have him out of the door faster than you can say Jack Robinson.
Tonnes of people could carry on this "project" and get better results doing it, that much we should all know because we've got tonnes of examples of how good managers can suddenly make the same squad perform miles better. You don't have to look any further than a guy in Leicester who took over a side in 12th last season and now has the exact same squad minus their best CB in 2nd place and looking superb.

The simple and smart thing to do next if Ole keeps dropping away is to target a few top managers (Nagelsmann, Rose, Poch to name but 3) and hire the one who likes the current project and can sell his version of it to you best. If any of them say "oh no, I need at least 2 years and 10 new players before my win rate can get anywhere near 50%", then he's not the man for us.