Do we have the 4th best squad in the league?If he doesn't make top four he must be shown the door. It's as simple as that, I cannot see how anyone can fathom allowing Ole to keep his job with a poor league campaign especially after LVG won a domestic cup and finished 5th and was booted. The standards cannot be allowed to further recline, we are the biggest club in English football and for some it's either Solskjaer or bust.
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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I think to put it simple word do we want progressing or league position. While so far in the past shown that finishing 2nd place didn’t show a progressing the following season but going backward. However, if progressing means improving the current squad player & developing them this season can lead us into a better position the next following season & so on.
At this point i'd call it delusion not mentality...
But then again is the type of players really important though nowdays? Our best transfer window post Sir Alex seems to be our last one with James, Maguire & Bissaka which three of them so far have perform and ideal for the long term plan. These are type of players can improve us and also type of players that we can sign even without CL football.
I don't find it confusing at all, it's pretty clear that if you put literally anyone else in Ole' place right now, the posters that are preaching that he deserves time would be calling for his sacking. They need to get their head out of the sand and realize where we actually are.
Do you need to be the 4th best team in the league if you have a manager worth his salt? Arsenal under Wenger finished there for years by beating the teams we've been losing and drawing to. Plus, the goalposts have changed dramatically since Ole was taken on as caretaker, back then all we heard from him is how we've an amazing squad of players that just needed to be set free from Mourinho' shackles. To add to that, he didn't think we needed another attacking player or midfielder aside from Daniel James and has spend a fortune on one CB and we're still leaking goals to Sheffield United, Bourmouth, Newcastle and Palace.
Yep. And when he's replaced, those same posters will look back on this period of time with the same disbelief that they get from the Moyes era. It's amazing what blind faith, fear and loyalty can make you believe and support.
Yes. The only manager i could think of that would be capable of outperforming his squad on a regular basis was SAF.
Who has the best squad in the league? City. They have been the champions. Who has the second best? Liverpool. Second place, now first. 3ed best? This is debatable imo between Chelsea and Tottenham, i would say Tottenham and that to me makes what happened to them under Poch so, so bad, especially not even wining a cup in 5 years.
For me it's quite simple really. The vast majority of the time the best squads are the ones that are on top at the end of the season. Occasionally a manager can do better and that is overachieving, or do worse and underachieve. I regard our squad as 5th or 6th best so my expectations for this season are somewhere between 4th and 6th. A cup is also realistic, depending on injuries.
Different era back then! Players he brought in were not primadonas, and I never said Moyes won't spend any money but he'll have a reason to spend, not just spend to make an instant success. We can't just spend willy-nilly and hope we get back to the top!
Chelsea were doomed before this season begun in many peoples eyes, don't be silly. Totenham have had a car crash start and are still level with us. Fair enough if you think we've the 6th best team in the league, but Ole himself doesn't agree with you based on the comments he made on our squad when he arrived and the few additions he made in the summer despite losing key players in key areas, particularly midfield.
You didn't mention that it was a different era in your initial post though. Instead, you claimed that Ferguson gained the trust of the board at first by methodically and gradually adding quality to the squad and then he was trusted with the big bucks. This is simply not true. He was offered the funds from day one and he was never afraid to use them.
As i mentioned, Hughes, Ince, Pallister, they were all record signings for United. With Hughes and Ince Ferguson fell out eventually, so there's something to think about the players' characters back then. You know what was the first thing Ferguson tried to do when he got the job in 1986? He tried to break the English transfer record to sign Beardsley but the latter preferred Liverpool. During his first full season, he attempted to break it again to get Gazza.
Take a look at our starting xi when we finally managed to end our drought: Schmeichel, Bruce, Pallister, Irwin, Parker, Kanchelskis, McClair, Ince, Hughes, Cantona... That's 9/10 starters who were bought by Ferguson and none of them was cheap. Never mind signings like Dublin, Webb, Wallace, Donaghy etc. who also cost us a lot of money. Does it look like a slow rebuilding job or the product of "willy-nilly" spending? Probably the latter, i would wager.
Even the argument about the impatient fans who would have driven Ferguson out of the club gets tiring at some point. Ferguson aimed to reshape the academy and our scouting system but he was never one to hide behind essays about philosophies and rebuilding jobs that will pay dividends 5 years down the line. He understood the utter significance of addressing the needs of the present. He understood that the first big step was to help United become relevant again. So, he strived to get the best players he could. And after spending a fortune on nearly 20 players in 2 1/2 years, he finished midtable. It sounds more like LvG and Mou's failures than Ole's predicament, doesn't it? Yes, some fans couldn't grasp the significance of the work that was being done behind the scenes. But you know something? Ferguson did not expect them to understand. That's what made him great. By the time he could reap the full benefits of the academy's reorganisation, in 95/96, he had already made United the best team on the island...
How did he do it? He bought most of it.
I've never said he didnt came 4th in his second season. I said he came 8th in his first.
Which is right.
Everything you say tells me that we should give Solskjaer time. He hasnt had a season yet. Right?
By this logic Ole finished 6th in his first season and now we're in his second season and are still miles away from top 4 approaching December.
Hah a much more direct way of putting it.
It also makes sense...fans love Ole the player so they're much more tolerant than they should be. Likewise there was an existing distaste for Jose when he arrived and I think fans were less tolerant than they should have been (way before the third season). Too many extremes here.
A midfield 4 of Williams, Fred, Pereira, AWB. That is among the worst fielded post fergie. I don't expect him to do well with how terrible this squad is and how badly we needed new midfielders
"You can't be happy because we didn't perform for the majority of the game, but our boys have shown what we're capable of if we're right. You've got to learn from that disappointing first 60-70 minutes."
Keep seeing this tweet at the bottom of the site and just get more and more annoyed because it is endemic of the flaws as Ole as a manager on match days itself.
1) Talks about 60-70 minutes of not performing, yet after 15-20 minutes it was clear our team was not comfortable with the changed formation. That it matched Sheffield's, who were far more comfortable in it should have sparked some kind of change on his part. Either moving Jones into midfield so that Perreira and Fred not get over run, not have Williams be left out to sea because he didn't know how to react. Or he could have made the sub he made at half time earlier. To me he just waits too long to make adjustments during the game. I have no reference to his time at Molde and can't say I watched Cardiff either but, imagine it's been the same his whole career, it certainly has been here.
2) I don't think I've ever seen him accept responsibility. He puts down to bad performances to players inexperience or something of the sort or that it is all part of the process. I think it's a complete lack of awareness of the mistakes he is making, maybe a bit too much belief in himself that he is myopic.
He talks about learning, just not sure what learning he is doing because over the past 7-8 months, he seems to make the same kind of mistakes in games, which is worrying.
Keep seeing this tweet at the bottom of the site and just get more and more annoyed because it is endemic of the flaws as Ole as a manager on match days itself.
1) Talks about 60-70 minutes of not performing, yet after 15-20 minutes it was clear our team was not comfortable with the changed formation. That it matched Sheffield's, who were far more comfortable in it should have sparked some kind of change on his part. Either moving Jones into midfield so that Perreira and Fred not get over run, not have Williams be left out to sea because he didn't know how to react. Or he could have made the sub he made at half time earlier. To me he just waits too long to make adjustments during the game. I have no reference to his time at Molde and can't say I watched Cardiff either but, imagine it's been the same his whole career, it certainly has been here.
2) I don't think I've ever seen him accept responsibility. He puts down to bad performances to players inexperience or something of the sort or that it is all part of the process. I think it's a complete lack of awareness of the mistakes he is making, maybe a bit too much belief in himself that he is myopic.
He talks about learning, just not sure what learning he is doing because over the past 7-8 months, he seems to make the same kind of mistakes in games, which is worrying.
Great post.
Also, can we stop perpetuating the myth about his 'great transfers'. As far as I'm concerned our window was a mess. We payed world class fees for 2 defenders who are not near world class at present. AWB is solid and has room to grow granted, but he lacks a lot of quality going forward. Maguire has been a disappointment thus far. He was supposed to be instant impact and a leader but he was evidently not even the best CB at Leicester. It's telling that both of their former clubs are doing fine without them. James has been good I will give him that.
Furthermore, he actively chose not to replace Lukaku which has left us relying on Martial and Rashford to finally deliver after being first teamers for 4 seasons now. Secondly, he didn't bring any midfielders in because he only wanted Longstaff who is not even as good as McTominay. Once Newcastle demanded silly money for him we had no serious interest in any other midfielder and I refuse to believe that the money wasn't there because we have seen LVG and Jose backed heavily in their first transfer windows so there was no reason not to sign a midfielder.
So yeah, not a 'great' window and to suggest otherwise is clutching at straws.
Furthermore, he actively chose not to replace Lukaku which has left us relying on Martial and Rashford to finally deliver after being first teamers for 4 seasons now. Secondly, he didn't bring any midfielders in because he only wanted Longstaff who is not even as good as McTominay. Once Newcastle demanded silly money for him we had no serious interest in any other midfielder and I refuse to believe that the money wasn't there because we have seen LVG and Jose backed heavily in their first transfer windows so there was no reason not to sign a midfielder.
So yeah, not a 'great' window and to suggest otherwise is clutching at straws.
His issues were well known before we bought him. If there was a consensus on Maguire, it was this: he clearly isn't good enough to warrant a record fee, but he's a good (potentially very good) player who will improve us. The consensus certainly was not that he's a world beater we absolute have to buy because he's just that good.
If you're going to judge him on the fee forever, he will never be good enough - because he obviously isn't a player whose ability jibes with a world record fee, and he never will be.
It's the Pogba situation all over again - only much worse, you could say, because Pogba was more of an X-factor in terms of how he might develop at United (fantasy, pretty much, but there you go - he was a different case at any rate) - and, not least, a player with extreme qualities that Maguire doesn't possess to any comparable degree. But it's the same thing: it doesn't make any sense to expect - as in, actually expect - extraordinary contributions from a player just because he was extraordinarily expensive.
The only sensible way to look at Maguire is that he was - undoubtedly, in my opinion - an upgrade on what we had at the time. And he has been consistently good for us. Not great - but good enough. The fee reflects our status as buyers and the generally insane nature of the market. That isn't his fault.
You seem to know a lot about who we were and were not actively targeting during the transfer window. It’s almost like you’re just making stuff up.
Only 4 goals less conceded as well in the league from same stage last season and 9 less points. Lots of points dropped from winning positions as well when haven’t been able to defend a lead. Like you say For 135m worth of investment I think it’s way too early to be patting Ole on the back.
I agree Maguire will never justify the fee, should have cost half the price.
Surely though the consensus you refer to can’t have been what the club and manager thought. For 85m they must have thought they were getting someone who would have an impact like VVD. I’d be extremely concerned if the final decision, was this guy isn’t great but he’s better than Jones and Rojo.
Therefore we either massively overspent on him or massively over rated him, either way it doesn’t fill me with confidence.
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Or - he was considered an astute signing as such: right profile, an improvement, good long-term investment, etc. And we could afford him, even at a silly transfer fee.
The assumption that we "massively overrated him" isn't all that well founded if you ask me. That goes back to the fee, simply, which is what it is - we targeted an established PL player and an England international, he was always going to be overpriced.
This is also, partly, about the assumption that we (Ole, specifically) blew an insane amount on a defender when the money could have been more wisely spent addressing other issues. Which assumes any number of things, not least:
- Bringing in a CB wasn't all that important (Mike was great - look at how he's tearing it up at Roma). Utter bollocks, in short. Maguire is a better player than anyone we had available before he was signed.
- Our transfer budget won't allow us to bring in the required players in other positions because we've now blown loads on Maguire. Unfounded and not based on anything tangible at all.
- We could have bought someone else, just as good, for a more reasonable fee. Yeah - who exactly?
It's true though. We haven't given a blank chequebook for any manager and won't, and we aren't City to spend money as if there's no end to it. After Maguire the rest of the market was us trying to get a backup striker without paying much, like Mandzukic. I don't get how after 6 years of following United in summer under Ed Woodward some don't think we have a certain budget in each summer. People expecting us to spend +200m in a summer are day dreaming and need to wake up.
Paying 80m for a player means you except revolutionary effect from him on the team, that he's so great he deserves to blow the majority of your budget on him. Paying this sum of money on a player because he is just an upgrade on what we have while we have positions crying for reinforcement is just stupid, and a big reason why we are here, because we have done this previously and I expect us to keep doing it, overpaying while leaving other positions then wondering why we are shite and don't get our value worth it.
Yeah this might look like a hindsight, and I did wanted Maguire since last window but I expect people at the club to have better and more rational thinking than some fans on internet. Not like there was any other club interested in him anyway, as City backed off from the deal, ironically for his price. We could have postponed this signing to Jan while spending this money on a midfielder or a forward.
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That doesn’t make sense though, he’s not an astute signing if he costs a world record fee and isn’t top class. He's not a good investment as you’ve massively over paid, if you choose to sell does anyone give your your money back?. I’d guess we should all be able to agree that’s a massive no.
The most logical scenario is the deal was signed off because the club were convinced Maguire was going to be something like VVD. Which therefore means we massively over rated him. Or they were incredibly desperate and either way it doesn’t reflect well on our recruitment team.
The assumption that massively over spending on one player has an impact on what can he spent elsewhere is just based on common sense. This club is run like a business, there’s not a bottomless pit of cash, or owners that are ambitious.
If we have this huge budget and apply this logic of ‘astute’ signings how did we not manage to buy a midfielder. Why not throw in another 100m for Maddison, why not round it up to 200m so Leicester can’t say no.
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Well you tell me. If Klopp had a season then Ole has already had a season. This is his second season, by your standards and he’s got progressively worse! So yes give him until the end of the season. He’ll only deserve the sack anyway.
Why do we have to target an England International? Wasn't Lingard and England International too? Look at Leicester. They paid 64 million for Soyuncu who is 24 and Tielemans and both are playing much better than anyone at United. It shows the difference between a good manager at Leicester and a B rate manager which we have.
Mate. Last summer (2018/19 summer), Mourinho wanted him when Leicester declined an offer of around £60m. Ed fecking Woodward publicly stated that the reaosn he didn't allow Jose to get his man, was because "he wasn't a significant upgrade on what we have" and we only wanted to sign game-changers. Fast forward 12months and Ed is signing off a world-record breaking sum for a CB for the exact same fecking player.
This club is a fecking circus.
It was a bit of a panic buy. Last year he would've been available at 60m which would probably reflect his true value. Is he better than what we had? Sure, but so is someone like Toby who would cost 25-30m considering his contract situation.
Every 70m+ defender would've be our best defender as soon as he comes in. Would that make Maguire a good buy? Probably, probably not.
We have to factor the price and whether that cost us reinforcing an additional player. We had a big hole in the middle of the park which was clear for everyone to see. Did we need a CB? Naturally yes. But was CF and CM more important? Considering the way we finished last season and we began this one I'd say it was a much bigger priority.
Maguire wasn't a special buy that you can praise Ole for. He was someone we were interested and probably we would've got last year for a cut price if it wasn't for Woodward.
If we were to spend the bulk of the budget on one position this Summer, I wouldn't do it on a CB - that's for sure.
These points just don't make a lot sense alongside each other. If your criteria for Maguire being a good signing is that he was "better than what we had before", then yes, there were clearly players out there who would fit that criteria and for a more reasonable fee, as otherwise you are suggesting Smalling, Bailly and Jones were difficult to improve upon in the market, which surely you don't think is the case? How many clubs have dropped £80 million on a center back, ever? None (apart from Liverpool with VVD, who is a different level to Maguire), and yet they all seem to be doing alright.
Also: a good long-term investment? Not sure about that. We'll never get anywhere close to what we paid for him back, so return on investment will need to come through trophies and seeing as we probably won't be challenging for the league in the next 2-3 years at least, it's hard to make the case that he is a good investment (at least so far). There's really no point in buying a player who will take us from 7th place to 5th place, and as £80 million is ~20% of our net transfer spend over the last five years, we really need to make sure we get more return on our 'investment' than that.
The thing about Maguire though is that he is only 26, so barring serious injury he can potentially be playing at a top level for another 5-6 years. I dont think reselling him is part of the plan. We were in desperate need of a proven quality CB and Leichester knew this so they could push the price as much as they liked.
Maybe its bad luck, but every CB signing since Vidic has been a gamble and everyone of them has failed. Jones, Smalling, Rojo, Baily, all of them could probably be decent for a mid table club or in another league, but none of them are top CB's and except Smalling, all of them are also very injury prone
Haha, amazing.
So, Ole In lads.......how would you explain this away? Seems the expectations of him are the same as every United manager. Personally, I don't think he'll be fired for not getting CL Football. If he finishes 5/6th and does okay in the EL, I think they'll give him another chance.
However I expect him to finish closer to 12th, so there's that.
So, Ole In lads.......how would you explain this away? Seems the expectations of him are the same as every United manager. Personally, I don't think he'll be fired for not getting CL Football. If he finishes 5/6th and does okay in the EL, I think they'll give him another chance.
However I expect him to finish closer to 12th, so there's that.
Sounds to me as if that would be a basis for getting rid of him at the end of the season if need be. I honestly thought we were starting to see rumblings of that last week anyways when Ole was talking about loan signings in January. It's like the Glazers have said they will only sanction loans and not give him a lot of money to spend in case they need to sack him at the end of the season.
He proved he's a fan of money, nothing else.
He's been a massive disappointment during his time here. His signing has been an absolute failure, unfortunately.
This is the exact kind of smear campaign the article was pointing out. There's no decency in smearing a club legend by calling him a money grabber with no evidence that that is his sole motivation for being manager.
Don't be such a douche acting like such a fair-weather fan.
You can't take these things seriously.
Why do you think he is being smug smiling all the time? I think he is being positive. Would you like him to have a face like thunder all the time?
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