This post is far too sensible for Redcafe. Well done for still being sane!
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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As others have already said, great post and it's hard to argue with any of the statements it makes but it won't change the minds of those with doubts regarding Ole's credentials for the job. We'll have a much better picture at the end of this season.
I'm not sure that any manager on earth could get free flowing attacking football out of this group of players - especially when we are missing our best outfield player and our most clinical finisher. With those two back, we will look better.
The fact is not one single poster on this forum has the first idea how to make this team more cohesive as an attacking unit. Your own analysis is basically take better corners, cross better and pass to each other better. Not exactly cutting edge tactical analysis, and I'm not being mean or personal to you here. My point is that none of us know. We don't know how Pep makes City play like they do and we don't have a clue about what goes on in training. Absolutely no idea.
For me that makes us all unfit to judge whether this staff are coaching our players properly or not. I think an example of what we can judge on are that many of our players are not 'top drawer' right now. You dont need to be a tactical visionary to see that. They look slow, ponderous & some of these guys are being asked to perform in positions that they are generally not capable of. We don't have a right winger. Our only available striker for the last few weeks looks short of confidence and knackered. Our strongest XI is a good side - well capable of getting into the top 4. Its a very steep drop off after the first XI (which I'm fine with - we needed a rebuild so get them out). Not exactly a great set of ingredients to create an attractive attacking unit is it? Good luck with that Pep, Klopp, Poch, Allegri etc etc.
Fernandes would've been a huge success in my opinion. At a club where Herrera, McTominay and Pereira are celebrated. Blunder not to pay the money.
Why should we believe your analysis. As you said you are a redcafe poster with 1% football knowledge.
I am posting after a long time.
The first thing people have to accept is that we are not going to challenge for anything for the next 2-3 years at least. There are a few things that I would like to share about the squad.
1. This squad will always struggle to keep a hold on the game, as we don't have an individual who can do that. Every team needs someone who will set the pace of the game, and the last one we had was carrick.
2. Pogba is a luxury player. He is not a number 10 in any way. Then what is he? He looses ball way too quickly, and teams have figured out that. You don't even need to man-mark him, and all opposing team has to do is press him when he has the ball.
To get Pogba performing well, we need to create a system that will mask his flaws. A DLP and a box to box mid, both absolute world-class.
3. Lack of wingers in the squad.
4. Lack of leaders in the squad.
No manager in the world can get all this fixed quickly. Ole is doing things which I feel right (apart from making Tuanzebe captain) but at the same time, I am not so sure about his in-game tactics.
What I feel is that our mid will get overrun every time (to most of the teams) as we don't have anyone to set the pace of the game. Secondly, Pogba will be just another player in this squad ( just an ordinary player).
Let Ole continue what he is doing, that is clearing out the players that are not good enough, buying good enough players and promoting youngsters. Let him have another 2-3 windows where he can address the lack of balance in the squad. At least he is making good signings and giving chances to our most talented youngsters, so whoever replaces him at the end can challenge for the title.
The first thing people have to accept is that we are not going to challenge for anything for the next 2-3 years at least. There are a few things that I would like to share about the squad.
1. This squad will always struggle to keep a hold on the game, as we don't have an individual who can do that. Every team needs someone who will set the pace of the game, and the last one we had was carrick.
2. Pogba is a luxury player. He is not a number 10 in any way. Then what is he? He looses ball way too quickly, and teams have figured out that. You don't even need to man-mark him, and all opposing team has to do is press him when he has the ball.
To get Pogba performing well, we need to create a system that will mask his flaws. A DLP and a box to box mid, both absolute world-class.
3. Lack of wingers in the squad.
4. Lack of leaders in the squad.
No manager in the world can get all this fixed quickly. Ole is doing things which I feel right (apart from making Tuanzebe captain) but at the same time, I am not so sure about his in-game tactics.
What I feel is that our mid will get overrun every time (to most of the teams) as we don't have anyone to set the pace of the game. Secondly, Pogba will be just another player in this squad ( just an ordinary player).
Let Ole continue what he is doing, that is clearing out the players that are not good enough, buying good enough players and promoting youngsters. Let him have another 2-3 windows where he can address the lack of balance in the squad. At least he is making good signings and giving chances to our most talented youngsters, so whoever replaces him at the end can challenge for the title.
I’ll take the job.. seeing as we are so easily pleased and I know the fans will give me time no matter what dross I deliver. Plus I always have the added bonus if things are failing on the pitch I can always rely on you guys blaming the board.
My first job will be to see if I can get away with signing Mark Noble and Pukki describing them as United way type players. Then I might force the board to spend £90m on Rice whilst trying to get Sancho but fail due to price. So atleast then when I’ve still got us playing shite I can point to having to play Peirera RW.
A manager needs to maximize talent. It's quite simple. This is achieved by creating a system that plays to the strengths of your best players or by installing a system that elevates players above their individual levels. Along the way, players can improve and/or look better than they actually are.
OGS is doing none of this and his history shows that he doesn't have the tools. He's passively sitting in his seat with his legs crossed looking like he's delegated everything to Phelan and McKenna. The body language is just atrocious. He can't even fake looking like he's in command.
OGS is doing none of this and his history shows that he doesn't have the tools. He's passively sitting in his seat with his legs crossed looking like he's delegated everything to Phelan and McKenna. The body language is just atrocious. He can't even fake looking like he's in command.
He's out his depth.
What players will the new manager have to challenge for this title you talk of?
So out of interest how would you set up the team with this squad of players?
Same question to you - how would you set up the team with this squad of players?
I don't think we should buy all British players but I think its important that any team has a core of national players as they are more likely to see United as the pinnacle and therefore less likely to leave.
I don't think we should buy all young players but I think it makes sense to invest in players who can give you 10 years in the team over a mercenary out for a quick pay day or a committed player with a lot of mileage on the clock.
If we can find elite English players to fill positions (Maddison and Sancho for example) then great but even the "mighty Class of '92
" needed the likes of Keane, Yorke, Stam, Irwin, Schmeichel and of course Solskjaer to win the trebel so i am sure Solskjaer would pick accordingly. As for Ole, Woodward and Poch, I would be fine with this if Woodward was just a money man who provided a strong budget each year then left the football matters to Poch and Ole.
Not that it undermines your point - but Fergie didn't want Sven. The board apparently wanted him (as Fergie's replacement) - but he wasn't recommended by Fergie himself, if memory serves.
Anyway - yes, his record of recommending managers is pretty dire, we can all agree on that.
Well if my belief is to play high pressing football with containing possession then...
Romero will probably be number one. Not as good as DDG but he’s good enough and better with the ball. My defenders will be relied on to play out from the back and I need a keeper who is not scared to leave his 6 yard box whilst being able to make a variation of passes.
Lindelöf and Maguire - similar to above.. non of this hoofing to channels.. they are individually ball playing CB and that’s what they will be doing with me.
AWB & Shaw - really I need two attacking full backs which neither are but AWB can be coached - Shaw would be a grander window away from the bench.
Fred - McTomminay - Pogba. Non of this two pivot crap. McTomminay will be deeper of the two. Fred will be encouraged to break attacks and feed balls between the lines whilst Pogba will be allowed to do what he’s best at.. like when Ole first started.
Rashford Martial Lingard. Width will be provided by the fullbacks. It’s Rashford and Lingard’s job to ensure the are an overlapping option when creating a two with Martial whilst the opposite winger looks to attack the far post.
I mean this is just the basics... but if you’re telling me that line up loses to West Ham playing a high press and actually wanting the ball. Sack me.
Ah, yes. You are right on that one.
We know Fergie had a good relationship with Jose and sent some advise to him as soon as he was appointed and wonder how much part of the decision he and Sir Bobby had for LvG and Jose.
I don't believe Woodward is identifying manager targets so surely we're taking advice from someone.
Yep. Fernandes might have misplaced a few passes but then who doesn't at United? None of our players can string a coherent passing move together so why not rely on a #10 that can smash a long-range shot and score 6/10 of them, for example? You win football games by scoring more goals than the opposition, so anyone who can provide goals for us would have been a huge addition to a starting 11 that cannot score goals. Ole wanted Longstaff who, surprise surprise, doesn't score or assist but is English and would probably 'keep things ticking over' with neat side-to-side passing for 90mins.
You are right, I bow down to your superior football knowledge that you have so eloquently displayed below.
I am sure Pep is shaking in his boots with the great plan that Mainoldo from the internet has just laid down
. "Fred will be encouraged to break attacks and feed balls between lines", that right there is league winning football tactics You do realize that Ole is here becouse of SA
So the theory behind it is Ole has coached basic skills out of the players? And if Matic can’t pick a pass, it’s becouse they didn’t work on in training the past week? If Rashford can’t score, it’s becouse Ole didn’t teach him? The FM comment is spot on!
You are right, I bow down to your superior football knowledge that you have so eloquently displayed below.
I am sure Pep is shaking in his boots with the great plan that Mainoldo from the internet has just laid down
No need to be a dick to people. I asked him the question and he answered it. All his answers illustrates is that our squad is severely lacking in important areas. Fred doesn't look cut out for this level an Lingard will never be the right winger that we need, but whatever changes you make the team looks like what it is - unfinished. A work in progress. If we bring in a top midfielder and top right winger (which surely mustbe our next purchases) then suddenly the team doesn't look half bad.
Great utd hour podcast this week addressing these issues. Consensus on that seems to be: Ole great at bringing in players, but poor at setting up a top modern footballing side. That's how I feel about it, there is no discernible system and there's nothing in Ole's track record to suggest that he is capable of this.
People say well he can't do more than this with this set of players. Are we worse on a player for player basis than Norwich? Of course not. So why do Norwich play such better football than us?
I think the answer is obvious. I don't want to be #Oleout, but tbh I think the writing's on the wall and it will simply become inevitable.
People say well he can't do more than this with this set of players. Are we worse on a player for player basis than Norwich? Of course not. So why do Norwich play such better football than us?
I think the answer is obvious. I don't want to be #Oleout, but tbh I think the writing's on the wall and it will simply become inevitable.
The problem for me is that because your statement is true, the team is unfinished, the manager has no excuse when it comes to impose a particular identity since at the moment whatever you do you will not have the perfect players for it. This is one of the elements that should allow us to realize that something is wrong with the coaching staff too, they are themselves "unfinished".
You are right, I bow down to your superior football knowledge that you have so eloquently displayed below.
I am sure Pep is shaking in his boots with the great plan that Mainoldo from the internet has just laid down
It's actually more than Ole is attempting.
Of course they are. The entire project is in transition. The fact is though that you won't get threat from the wings with these players. You won't get an efficient pressing team with these players. We wont have an aerial presence in the box from open play with these players. I could go on and on. Being a top coach does not mean that you will be able to make this happen through coaching. Pep and Klopp needed lots of new players to realise their vision. They didn't make these teams out of what they had. The squads are unrecognisable from what they inherited.
I do not enjoy being a dick to people but when someone tries to be a smart ass I am not afraid to point out that they may think they are smarter than they really are.
All of us on this board are passionate football fans but lets not pretend that we have footballing insight that can rival professionals who have been doing this for years together. Discussions would be much more interesting if we accept that professional coaches would have made decisions after carefully considering the different options, but they may have ultimately chosen the wrong option and reached the wrong decision.
Ridiculing and labelling managers such as Ole as frauds and characterizing them as some incompetent fools who can only give advice such as 'run hard' only highlights the lack of our own self awareness.
It’s cool. I’m big enough to defend myself.. besides if you asked him the question he’ll still be scratching his head on who to start.
But I never said we aren’t weak.. but we can work on that. They will always be plugs to fill. Even though I selected that midfield, McTomminay and Fred need upgrading and the RW has been needed fixing for years.
And how do you know that? Are you privy to the training sessions that the coaching staff conducts on a daily basis? Why do we presume that qualified coaches are not working on these basic tactical instructions.
You are just repeating yourself and we already agreed on that point. And your point means that the staff current choices have nothing to do with personnel, it's based on their preferences and coaching abilities which is worrying.
Smart arse? So because your happy to believe you have no sense.. doesn’t mean i do. Your the type of muppet the glazers love. Just lap it all up because people more qualified than you, clearly know more than you. It’s football not bloody rocket science. Your grandad probably has an opinion on it to, do you tell him to shut up as he’s not Ole Gunnar Solskjaer.
Name me one instance where a manger would have to work under more difficult circumstances. Sure, all top club manager positions comes with some big expectations, but i cant for the life of me remember a "top club" that has had such a dire squad. I never said 20 years, but we are looking at at least 2-3 windows here before we can hope to get this team back on its feet, and that is regardless of who is in the chair. Klopp finished 8th in his first season at Pool, Pep 4th with a City team that is way, way stronger than the current crop of players we have
Would they though? Because if say Poch took over and he did worse then top 4, i can imagine both this place and some sections on OT getting quite toxic if not outright hostile. Jose was a winner, he had charisma, he was a big name, he failed and he got sacked. Tuchell, Allegri and especially Pep and Klopp are completely unrealistic to take the job so i dont know why they are brought up all the time.
Nepotism? You make it sound like Ole and Ed are old mates. Have they even met before he was hired?
Also, its kinda funny you mention Milan. Then had 8 managers since 2014, so clearly their method of changing managers all the time has not worked out to well has it? Same with Chelsea and to some extent Real Madrid. Now that the core of their team has crumbled up, i reckon the latter are in for some pretty lean years
I think everyone agrees the start of the season has been bad, but i think we all need to take a deep breath here and look at the bigger picture. We are in the middle of a massive rebuild here. The biggest since Fergie took over. Both the squad and idealy the entire apparatus around the club needs to be renewed and improved if we hope to get back on our feet and this takes time. More than 1 season.
The reason i am still cautiously optimistic is because Ole did well in the transfer window imo. He shipped out a lot of deadwood (something none of our former ones did) and his three incoming players have arguably been our best performers so far and they are all fairly young. That is the medicine we need right now. Get rid of all the pretenders and bad apples, get in some fresh faces with the right attitude and the skills to match, then the results will hopefully come.
Can also mention that if Ole had bought players in the twillight of their careers in some desperate attempt to clinch top 4, i would have wanted him gone yesterday.
Absolutely spot on.
The people going on about a change of manager like it'll be a panacea are infuriatingly simple in their outlook on this. It's been 6 years of the same shit every single time. For better or worse, we need to give Ole the time to build the squad in his image. If it doesn't work out after two or three seasons then fair enough, but just sacking it off after a poor run of results and form, is just stupid.
I don’t know, because we’re seeing supposed lesser teams such as West Ham and Palace being coached better? Never mind the big clubs. We barely look coached to string together three passes in the final third, have height at corners yet are clueless at taking them, have no designated free kick taker, even when Pogba is playing he bizarrely doesn’t take them. Every time James swings in a cross there’s barely anyone in the box, the list goes on. These are the basics you’ve got to get right as a manager.
But how or why would you implement a particular identity when you lack the playing staff required to do so, at the same time knowing the majority of the existing players will be shipped out at the next available opportunity?
And you are the type of muppet who Ed Woodward has been able to fool into believing that it's all the managers fault and by changing the coach everything will be hunky dory. And I have no problem with people thinking Ole is not good enough or is not doing a good job, but believing that you have some tactical insight that Ole is incapable to have is some next level bs.
But this is where the people going on about a change of manager are scratching their heads. What’s this image you’re talking about? Is he he going to be in any way competitive while he builds this elusive squad or are we going to be fighting relegation while he does so? Also this isn’t just a poor run of results, it’s a horrendous run stretching for the guts of 9 months.
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Well, you won't ship out the majority of your players, so that's a fallacy. And your new players(AWB, James, Maguire, Greenwood, Gomes), your staff, the players that you are going to keep, the young players(U23, U19), the scouts and yourself will benefit from a stable framework. It will allow you to clearly identify the weaknesses and strengths of your team within your ideal system and it will allow some players to maybe surprise you and shine in your system. Think about Henderson or even Milner, they have been elevated by the system, if it wasn't for it most people would have seen them as deadwood.
Otherwise you are following an approach for players that you seemingly won't keep and you are not even getting results.
The problem is you can only analyse the extent of coaching in what's exemplified in our performances. When you go to live games you'll see no patterns of play, no attacking shapes to penetrate the opposition, players standing still in the box, the ball being moved along slowly, too many touches. Contrast that to teams who have coaches who are renown for their job and you can see we are struggling. Further proof that Ole is a poor coach is the fact that despite being 10 months in charge not one single player has shown any promising development.
Greenwood, Chong, Gomes and Garner the supposed new generation of talent that Ole has promised to fans haven't made any real progress in the starting 11. Greenwoods goals have all come due to his own intuition, where is the system that brings out the best in these players ? Are Henderson, Sissoko, Wijnaldum world class or does the implementation of a system help attribute their influences for their respective teams. Why is greenwood who's one of the most prolific strikers at the club being played in a wide position, why is Pogba being played in a double pivot, what's Pereria doing in the right wing, why has Matic been playing ahead of Fred despite treacherous performances. So not only are we dealing with a useless coach also below par management.
This 'horrendous' run of form stretches back further than nine months though. We've been playing like this since the midway point of Jose's second season in charge.
(bar the honeymoon period when Ole first took over)
I fully understand that and I am not a fan of Ole. What I am saying is that until the management of the club is restructured we can have little confidence in the way his successor is selected.
Also the fact that a lot of those players know they will be shipped out.
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