Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

[TheGame]

Just seen the post match interview with BT and Rio and Joe Cole. Not sure if there was something lost in translation but Joe Cole asked how the players felt playing in front of the crowd and Ole said yeah but some of the players are having drugs tests.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Just seen the post match interview with BT and Rio and Joe Cole. Not sure if there was something lost in translation but Joe Cole asked how the players felt playing in front of the crowd and Ole said yeah but some of the players are having drugs tests.

He said it in a weird way but essentially was explaining the dressing room wasn’t bouncing (because it would have been given the atmosphere in the stadium - I assume that’s why he said it!) because a number of players had immediately gone for random tests.

 

[RedSky]

It's a little misleading as Pogba tends to start on the left, been a while since we used him as a proper DM. It'd be more interesting to list the players based on how each Manager used them and the ages they were at. Jose at end of Dec 18, and Ole now.

 

[NZT-One]

I always find that sort of stuff to be somewhat irritating... it makes it look like Ole is the only factor in this transformation, doesn't it?

a) we don't really know how Varane and Sancho will work out. Sounds great of course but what does that mean? Not much. It's a perception thing, we know what the team of 2018 delivered, we don't know about the team of 2021.

b) For example Rashford and Greenwood are very talented, I guess, most managers could have got a tune out of them and I would argue, that their careers would look mostly the same no matter who the manager would have been.

c) The team from 2018 doesn't really sound all to bad in my eyes. Take the 2018 team from the picture - Lindelof is a mainstay in the team during Oles time and will probably replaced by a player that didn't even made the bench once. Matic in his prime was pretty good, Herrera was often more than alright, Lukaku went for 115mio this summer so certainly is a good player, Valencia is a fine RB, only thing that stands out is Lingard. But he is still in the squad in 2021 ^^

I know, there is some sort of war of the opinions going on, but I think, both sides try way too hard to create arguments for or against the person of the manager just to have some ammunition in the arsenal.

 

[RedSky]

I always find that sort of stuff to be somewhat irritating... it makes it look like Ole is the only factor in this transformation, doesn't it?

a) we don't really know how Varane and Sancho will work out. Sounds great of course but what does that mean? Not much. It's a perception thing, we know what the team of 2018 delivered, we don't know about the team of 2021.

b) For example Rashford and Greenwood are very talented, I guess, most managers could have got a tune out of them and I would argue, that their careers would look mostly the same no matter who the manager would have been.

c) The team from 2018 doesn't really sound all to bad in my eyes. Take the 2018 team from the picture - Lindelof is a mainstay in the team during Oles time and will probably replaced by a player that didn't even made the bench once. Matic in his prime was pretty good, Herrera was often more than alright, Lukaku went for 115mio this summer so certainly is a good player, Valencia is a fine RB, only thing that stands out is Lingard. But he is still in the squad in 2021 ^^

I know, there is some sort of war of the opinions going on, but I think, both sides try way too hard to create arguments for or against the person of the manager just to have some ammunition in the arsenal.

Matic wasn't in his prime in 2018. Lindelof has always been very inconsistent, Jose bought him and played him. Fred was a bit part player for Jose, Valencia was at the end of his career and despite being ok in his prime was certainly not good near the end. Do we even know that Jose would have played Greenwood? Ole played him immediately and stuck with him.

We've brought in two world class players and you call it a perception thing? No, it's fecking fantastic recruitment.

I agree with your first sentence though.

 

[Mr Smith]

With the quality of the squad. It is not a question anymore if he should win the league or at least challenge until the last two games. I expect nothing less, as I did last season.

I do get where you're coming from, but we shouldn't 'expect' to win the league given the competition in the league. We should expect to challenge every year certainly, and be in it right till the end. But if we expect to win the league every year we'll be setting ourselves up for disappointment.

It's also just worth enjoying that we're capable of sweeping teams aside again. It's been a long time since that's last been the case.

 

[redrobed]

Slightly

Ole: £373.6m

Pep: £941m and would be ~£1.1bn if he buys Kane.

I don't even want to start with what both inherited.

And you're not sure what's my point?

Come on, you know that’s a meaningless comparison. Guardiola has been in charge years longer than Ole.

Besides, I’m not quite sure how this has turned into a comparison anyway. My point was that Ole has spent a lot of money (think that’s beyond dispute?) and that he’s under pressure to deliver now (think that’s also beyond dispute)?

I’m a big supporter of his but we need a bigger season than any we’ve had post-SAF. Saturday was a fantastic start.

 

[RedorDead21]

Come on, you know that’s a meaningless comparison. Guardiola has been in charge years longer than Ole.

Besides, I’m not quite sure how this has turned into a comparison anyway. My point was that Ole has spent a lot of money (think that’s beyond dispute?) and that he’s under pressure to deliver now (think that’s also beyond dispute)?

I’m a big supporter of his but we need a bigger season than any we’ve had post-SAF. Saturday was a fantastic start.

Given what our rivals have done 2nd/3rd but with a trophy has to be minimum requirement for me. Top 4 and he will stay as a trophy won’t bring in much more ££ unless it’s the CL. He needed another top top DM and them to really hit the ground running for me to be faves for the title. Good luck for us though and bad for city could be the difference injury wise hey?

 

[Olecurls99]

Do not need to play 4 full backs to play that defensively. Ole has had plenty of matches when we defend all the 90 minutes without any attacking. The problem is Jose always does it while Ole does it occasionally.

Yep, I would suggest he has done it when we were out matched which is fair enough in my book and I would also say it was never the sort of ultra defending we saw under Jose.

I think as our squad improves we are going to see more of what we saw on Saturday.

I heard an Irish fella talking on the Guardian podcast who was baffled that United fans still backed Ole. I just don't understand that mindset. From what we were to what we are now, how is it not blindingly obvious.

 

[Olecurls99]

Where to begin.

Let's start with Alexis Sanchez. What a horror show that was. Ole fixed that.

Lukaku and his big game disappearing act was turfed out too.

Lingard has become the backup that he needed to be.

Greenwood was properly backed in a way that would not have been countenanced under the senior pro loving Jose

Fred became useful thanks to Ole's good management

And Luke Shaw has become the player he was supposed to be yet again thanks to Ole's support

All that and we've added some real talent.

Bruno
Sancho
Varane
Bissaka

Great work

 

[NZT-One]

Matic wasn't in his prime in 2018. Lindelof has always been very inconsistent, Jose bought him and played him. Fred was a bit part player for Jose, Valencia was at the end of his career and despite being ok in his prime was certainly not good near the end. Do we even know that Jose would have played Greenwood? Ole played him immediately and stuck with him.

We've brought in two world class players and you call it a perception thing? No, it's fecking fantastic recruitment.

I agree with your first sentence though.

1) Perception: Maybe my explanation didn't work. Please have a look at this:

17/18 Lukaku, Matic, Lindelof, Sanchez
16/17 Pogba, Mkhitaryan, Bailley, Ibrahimovic
15/16 Martial, Schneiderlin, Depay, Darmian, Schweinsteiger, Romero
14/15 Di Maria, Shaw, Herrera, Rojo, Blind, Falcao, Valdes

Back then, many of these transfers have been seen as pretty good. Look how it turned out and how they are viewed today. That is what I mean - looking at something from 3 years ago with all the knowledge of today will change perception to an extent. It is easier to have a crush on your new hot neighbor than to have a crush on your ex-girl/boyfriend. Even though both can be a pain in the a**.

2) 1st paragraph: for all you say about Lindelof and Matic, the first was an integral part of Oles squad until (probably) now. Matic has been a regular as well. Valencia career was over, Fred wasn't given a proper chance, Ole gave Greenwood the chance and it paid off. Thats all correct and I wouldn't want to take something away from Ole.

My point is not, that we should have stuck with Mourinho (god no!) or that Ole didn't do a very good job - my point is, a lot of the things he did weren't miracle-out-of-this-world-out-of-the-box things but things you would expect every manager to do. To give more chances to a 50mio midfielder, easier to do that than to not do it, get rid of Valencia, well yeah, he was done and Darmian was never up for it. Ole went for the obvious choice - AWB, young, british, promising. Same for Maguire, the obvious choice, same for Sancho. That doesn't mean that these choices aren't good or great of whatever, but I think it is mentionworthy that stuff is perceived as awesome and worldclass around here, when it is just good to very good. It applies to lots of stuff, look at what is written in the Shaw thread, "masterclass", "excellent", "best LB in the country". I mean I get it, but it is still weird to come these conclusions after a good performance against a relatively dreadful opponent.

I guess (and I have to accept) that I am in a minority seeing it like that. Which is fine of course. As I wrote in another thread, I remember how we laughed at RAWK for bigging up their managers and individual players, when from the outside it felt more "ok, so you did the right thing this time instead of f**ing it up". My feeling is, that this is taking place right now as well.

 

[AshRK]

1) Perception: Maybe my explanation didn't work. Please have a look at this:

17/18 Lukaku, Matic, Lindelof, Sanchez
16/17 Pogba, Mkhitaryan, Bailley, Ibrahimovic
15/16 Martial, Schneiderlin, Depay, Darmian, Schweinsteiger, Romero
14/15 Di Maria, Shaw, Herrera, Rojo, Blind, Falcao, Valdes

Back then, many of these transfers have been seen as pretty good. Look how it turned out and how they are viewed today. That is what I mean - looking at something from 3 years ago with all the knowledge of today will change perception to an extent. It is easier to have a crush on your new hot neighbor than to have a crush on your ex-girl/boyfriend. Even though both can be a pain in the a**.

2) 1st paragraph: for all you say about Lindelof and Matic, the first was an integral part of Oles squad until (probably) now. Matic has been a regular as well. Valencia career was over, Fred wasn't given a proper chance, Ole gave Greenwood the chance and it paid off. Thats all correct and I wouldn't want to take something away from Ole.

My point is not, that we should have stuck with Mourinho (god no!) or that Ole didn't do a very good job - my point is, a lot of the things he did weren't miracle-out-of-this-world-out-of-the-box things but things you would expect every manager to do. To give more chances to a 50mio midfielder, easier to do that than to not do it, get rid of Valencia, well yeah, he was done and Darmian was never up for it. Ole went for the obvious choice - AWB, young, british, promising. Same for Maguire, the obvious choice, same for Sancho. That doesn't mean that these choices aren't good or great of whatever, but I think it is mentionworthy that stuff is perceived as awesome and worldclass around here, when it is just good to very good. It applies to lots of stuff, look at what is written in the Shaw thread, "masterclass", "excellent", "best LB in the country". I mean I get it, but it is still weird to come these conclusions after a good performance against a relatively dreadful opponent.

I guess (and I have to accept) that I am in a minority seeing it like that. Which is fine of course. As I wrote in another thread, I remember how we laughed at RAWK for bigging up their managers and individual players, when from the outside it felt more "ok, so you did the right thing this time instead of f**ing it up". My feeling is, that this is taking place right now as well.

But that's the thing if it was as easy to fix the squad as you point out, why didn't lvg or Jose do it. Why did our squad when jose left in 2018 look a mess even after he had spent good amount of money. Jose went after Yerry Mina, willian, perisic, Boateng to name some. If he was given more money those were the players we would have signed. Do you think with them we would have been in a better position? I don't.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Yep, I would suggest he has done it when we were out matched which is fair enough in my book and I would also say it was never the sort of ultra defending we saw under Jose.

I think as our squad improves we are going to see more of what we saw on Saturday.

I heard an Irish fella talking on the Guardian podcast who was baffled that United fans still backed Ole. I just don't understand that mindset. From what we were to what we are now, how is it not blindingly obvious.

You only need to look at how the goal scoring has improved.

Since Fergie, Ole is the only manager to score 5 goals.

He's managed this 5 times now, 3 times 5, a 6 and a 9.

That in itself tells a story about how much more exciting our football has become! Yes winning trophies is nice but it's not everything. I'd take 5 seasons of exciting football over 1 flukey FA cup win.

 

[NZT-One]

Where to begin.

Let's start with Alexis Sanchez. What a horror show that was. Ole fixed that. /do we think, any other coach would have tried to get this right?!

Lukaku and his big game disappearing act was turfed out too. /things were dire, Lukaku didn't work out because Jose wanted him to do things, he wasn't able to do ("back-to-goal player"), which lead to fans turning against Lukaku. From then on, there was only one option. I think, it is even debatable, how good Lukaku could have been for us, when we would sticked to him and have Pogba and later Bruno playing many vertical passes into him)

Lingard has become the backup that he needed to be. /... half he caf would have done that, I cant add that to Oles account

Greenwood was properly backed in a way that would not have been countenanced under the senior pro loving Jose /how Ole integrated Greenwood was very very good. He deserves all the credit for being brave to stick to the boy.

Fred became useful thanks to Ole's good management /he was probably useful before, we shelled out 50mio euros for the guy

And Luke Shaw has become the player he was supposed to be yet again thanks to Ole's support /well my personal view is, that Luke is realizing his potential now but yeah, I am sure Ole has helped him a big deal (even though his performances didn't went through the roof before we got him some competition...)

All that and we've added some real talent.

Good example for the point I made earlier.

What doesn't mean, I think, what the user said is wrong - for me it is a bit out of proportion.

 

[NZT-One]

But that's the thing if it was as easy to fix the squad as you point out, why didn't lvg or Jose do it. Why did our squad when jose left in 2018 look a mess even after he had spent good amount of money. Jose went after Yerry Mina, willian, perisic, Boateng to name some. If he was given more money those were the players we would have signed. Do you think with them we would have been in a better position? I don't.

Again, I am not fighting for Mourinho here. What he did wasn't good. Most certainly - no debate from my side.

I dont want to depict the task as easy but LVG and Mourinho were no top trainers when we got them LVG was semi washed up, left Bayern not in the best sentiments, played horrible but somewhat effective football with the Netherlands. Nobody considered him a top trainer back then anymore and it showed, he tried to implement his rigid style of play without having the proper playing material for it. Same goes for Mourinho in a way, he went out crashing at Real Madrid, same with Chelsea. Burnt bridges, playing relatively reactionary and outdated and defensive football which got him results once but when that stopped, he had almost nothing left. Having these two with all their personal stuff and their completely different views on how to play the game, it had to create issues.

So of course Ole was better than these two at the point we were in our lifecycle. Instilling a relatively pragmatic playstyle, create a comfortable environment. And, take a bow, I salute him because he obviously surpassed my expectations. But what he does, I would consider as relatively baseline stuff, not extraordinary. And while I am happy we finally have something who does everything well, I think we should be aware that at some point, we have to have more than well if we want to surpass our competitors. I don't want to say, Ole stops us from that, if our first team continues these trends, the title question goes through us. But as long as the other teams have brilliant teams as well and are in form as well, I think, we might have a little disadvantage. And I feel a bit confirmed in that thinking thinking back at the EL final last year.

 

[izak]

I just want to say this, If it was any other Manager in the world who had moved Pogba to LAM like OGS has done, we'll all be calling them a tactical Genius.

 

[RedSky]

But that's the thing if it was as easy to fix the squad as you point out, why didn't lvg or Jose do it. Why did our squad when jose left in 2018 look a mess even after he had spent good amount of money. Jose went after Yerry Mina, willian, perisic, Boateng to name some. If he was given more money those were the players we would have signed. Do you think with them we would have been in a better position? I don't.

It's warped logic. Thinks it should be a given that all Managers should recruit well, despite our last 3 Managers recruiting badly. If recruitment was easy then shouldn't Arsenal be doing better given they've spent over 300m euros in the last 3 seasons? Spending money means feck all at the end of the day unless you spend it wisely on the right players. This is something we've done very well under Ole and the squad has come on leaps and bounds. Our first eleven right now is the strongest its been in years.

It wasn't long ago that everyone on this forum was complaining about the lack of quality in our squad and how poor technically it was. Now we're meant to be aiming for the title with the squad we have, that clearly tells me that we've recruited far better under Ole. It's the first time since the Sir Alex years where I feel we have a genuine chance at pushing for the title, perhaps not winning it, but at least giving it a real go. I'm still not overly convinced Ole can take us right back to the top, but it pisses me off that he isn't given the credit he deserves for resurrecting this club when it was frankly, a total and utter mess.

I'm looking forward to Sunday, away to Southampton... *licks lips*.

 

[NZT-One]

I just want to say this, If it was any other Manager in the world who had moved Pogba to LAM like OGS has done, we'll all be calling them a tactical Genius.

That is not true Even here at the caf it has been a topic every once in a while. It was discussed to have him on the right-wing and play the role just like Mata did so no, placing him on the left side of the midfield isn't a genius stroke. It was certainly courageous from Ole to try but its not like he came up with it. Pogba playing in the left channel gained him the reputation at Juve that made us spent all the money.

 

[NZT-One]

It's warped logic. Thinks it should be a given that all Managers should recruit well, despite our last 3 Managers recruiting badly. If recruitment was easy then shouldn't Arsenal be doing better given they've spent over 300m euros in the last 3 seasons? Spending money means feck all at the end of the day unless you spend it wisely on the right players. This is something we've done very well under Ole and the squad has come on leaps and bounds. Our first eleven right now is the strongest its been in years.

It wasn't long ago that everyone on this forum was complaining about the lack of quality in our squad and how poor technically it was. Now we're meant to be aiming for the title with the squad we have, that clearly tells me that we've recruited far better under Ole. It's the first time since the Sir Alex years where I feel we have a genuine chance at pushing for the title, perhaps not winning it, but at least giving it a real go. I'm still not overly convinced Ole can take us right back to the top, but it pisses me off that he isn't given the credit he deserves for resurrecting this club when it was frankly, a total and utter mess.

I'm looking forward to Sunday, away to Southampton... *licks lips*.

It isn't "warped logic" at all. Sticking with your example: don't you think, Arteta would have taken AWB or Maguire? I think he would but there were 130million pounds in the way.

I didn't want to say, recruiting is easy but you have to agree with me that a certain aptitude in identifying talent is required for the job. And yes, I give it you, Ole has shown this talent. But not to any sort of magnificient extent. Again, Maguire, AWB and Sancho were/are obvious choices, standout players in recent PL history in positions of need. Plus british. I'd even argue, that you wouldn't even have to read a scouting report for that. Going for Bruno was great, very great perhaps and it paid off. Kudos. But for Bruno you have Donny to balance it out.

It is funny, because I feel my arguments are perceived as if I would say, Ole has no qualities. But I dont - he has some very valuable qualities but I think, these qualities are somewhat inflated around here. And just to make sure: mentioning that we are the strongest in years doesn't really go against my standpoint. I agree with that but that isn't just due to Ole being a godlike-figure to unwirl the worlds biggest mysteries. Is this something, you feel unjust or so? That I don't agree that Ole is ubergreat but only good to very good?

 

[anant]

Again, Maguire, AWB and Sancho were/are obvious choices, standout players in recent PL history in positions of need. Plus british. I'd even argue, that you wouldn't even have to read a scouting report for that. Going for Bruno was great, very great perhaps and it paid off. Kudos. But for Bruno you have Donny to balance it out.

Have it this way, take the transfer record of any team in the last 5/6 years. Look at their transfer success%. Hell, look at what % of big name signings have been successful in last 5 years - and you'd come across names like Coutinho, Sanchez, Griezmann, Dembele, Hazard, Werner, etc.

I'm quite certain that the hit rate of any top side in last 5 years wouldn't be more than 60% and I'm being generous here. Recruitment is possibly one of the main reasons why half the managers lose their job.

Donny is possibly the only player we've bought that you'd term as not successful, but I doubt it'd surprise anyone if he does turn his career around here, as he's shown that he's a smart player, and I'm sure if he gets chances, he'll become a valuable player here

 

[RedSky]

It isn't "warped logic" at all. Sticking with your example: don't you think, Arteta would have taken AWB or Maguire? I think he would but there were 130million pounds in the way.

I didn't want to say, recruiting is easy but you have to agree with me that a certain aptitude in identifying talent is required for the job. And yes, I give it you, Ole has shown this talent. But not to any sort of magnificient extent. Again, Maguire, AWB and Sancho were/are obvious choices, standout players in recent PL history in positions of need. Plus british. I'd even argue, that you wouldn't even have to read a scouting report for that. Going for Bruno was great, very great perhaps and it paid off. Kudos. But for Bruno you have Donny to balance it out.

It is funny, because I feel my arguments are perceived as if I would say, Ole has no qualities. But I dont - he has some very valuable qualities but I think, these qualities are somewhat inflated around here. And just to make sure: mentioning that we are the strongest in years doesn't really go against my standpoint. I agree with that but that isn't just due to Ole being a godlike-figure to unwirl the worlds biggest mysteries. Is this something, you feel unjust or so? That I don't agree that Ole is ubergreat but only good to very good?

Arsenal have spent 300m euros in 3 seasons. Granted, we've spent 100m euros more, but it's not that much in the grand scheme of things, 2 players max in this market and Arsenal seem intent on spending more money this window so we'll see how it shakes out when the window closes. But when we've spent money we've seen a clear improvement in league position, general play, goals scored etc. There's been a clear route of progression and we've improved with every passing month.

I just get pissed off when people under estimate what Ole has done and just shrug it off. If this was a named Manager with a great CV people would be drooling at having just brought in Sancho and Varane, yet you literally shrugged it off as if it was nothing. I've had to put up with way too much shit by supporting Ole from the start and believing in his project. Argued for countless hours, providing clear stats and evidence to support the notion that as a club we've gone leaps and bounds in the right direction.

I don't expect people to think Ole is a god, I'm not even convinced that he can get the title. But to just shrug off his achievements as 'good' annoys me as it doesn't take into consideration what a complete state we were in post Jose. The toxic shite dragged this club into turmoil and Ole's managed to shake us back into being United again. 6 defeats in the league since Bruno signed in Jan 29, 2020. Six.

 

[NZT-One]

Have it this way, take the transfer record of any team in the last 5/6 years. Look at their transfer success%. Hell, look at what % of big name signings have been successful in last 5 years - and you'd come across names like Coutinho, Sanchez, Griezmann, Dembele, Hazard, Werner, etc.

I'm quite certain that the hit rate of any top side in last 5 years wouldn't be more than 60% and I'm being generous here. Recruitment is possibly one of the main reasons why half the managers lose their job.

Donny is possibly the only player we've bought that you'd term as not successful, but I doubt it'd surprise anyone if he does turn his career around here, as he's shown that he's a smart player, and I'm sure if he gets chances, he'll become a valuable player here

Hmm, maybe my take on the whole transfer thing is different than to most of you... Let me explain. If the manager of team T goes for a player P with a proven record in a position where T has noone of starting eleven quality and he pays not an completely stupid amount of money for it, I see two outcomes:
1) player works out, a squad hole is closed
2) player doesn't work out, position remains problematic

In scenario 1, I'd say this is a 6 out of 10 transfer because going for a proven player in a position of need that works out is good (not very good, could be very good if the price/deal is very good)
In scenario 2 I'd say it is a 5 out of 10 transfer because what can you do more than getting a proven player in (lets not get into not using him accurately).

So going for proven players can only earn you more than a "good" grade in my eyes, if the proven player is brought for a position where the squad isn't in dire need but the transfer fires up the team and brings new impulses and competition for places.

If a manager would want to get more points, he/she would have to go for talents or not as well known prospects. Here the factor of money comes in. If this prospect is brought for big amount and fails, 2-4 out of 10. If the prospect succeeds 7-9 out of 10. If the prospect is brought for small to medium amount and succeeds 7-9 out of 10.

So I guess I try to take "realistic expectations" into account and thats why these are currently my ratings for the transfers

AWB: 5.5/10
Maguire: 6.75/10
James: 4.75/10
Bruno: 8.75/10
Telles: 6/10
DVB: 3/10
Sancho: ?/10 (4 to 9, lower if he starts playing Playstation like Dembele, higher if he becomes one of the best players in the league)
Varane: ?/10 (5 to 7, lower if it turns out, he doesn't really care, maybe higher if he starts to score like Ramos)

edited:
Dalot - 4.5/10
Cavani - 7/10

This averages at 5.8, which is pretty good. Guessing that Varane ends up at 6 and Sancho at 7 averages at 6. Guessing Varane at 7 and Sancho at 8, averages at 6.3 which would be on the brink of "very good".

Please don't tell me, that this is subjective. I know it is to an extent but I think, it is still pretty reasonable.

Arsenal have spent 300m euros in 3 seasons. Granted, we've spent 100m euros more, but it's not that much in the grand scheme of things, 2 players max in this market and Arsenal seem intent on spending more money this window so we'll see how it shakes out when the window closes. But when we've spent money we've seen a clear improvement in league position, general play, goals scored etc. There's been a clear route of progression and we've improved with every passing month.

I understand you. But what and how Arsenal spent his budget doesn't make a good measure for quality. So even if I agree with you, that Arsenals should have done better and that we did pretty good, pretty good doesn't turn into magnificient.

I just get pissed off when people under estimate what Ole has done and just shrug it off. If this was a named Manager with a great CV people would be drooling at having just brought in Sancho and Varane, yet you literally shrugged it off as if it was nothing. I've had to put up with way too much shit by supporting Ole from the start and believing in his project. Argued for countless hours, providing clear stats and evidence to support the notion that as a club we've gone leaps and bounds in the right direction.

Sorry to hear but, and I really want to make sure, that I mean that as respectful as possible, I don't really care of how much of a trouble you went emotionally. I don't think, I underestimate Ole. I think, I rate him very fairly. If you don't agree, that's fine and I read your reasoning but it didn't change my view. I hope, we can still argue over stuff from here on.

I don't expect people to think Ole is a god, I'm not even convinced that he can get the title. But to just shrug off his achievements as 'good' annoys me as it doesn't take into consideration what a complete state we were in post Jose. The toxic shite dragged this club into turmoil and Ole's managed to shake us back into being United again. 6 defeats in the league since Bruno signed in Jan 29, 2020. Six.

Listen to yourself. You felt the need to add Bruno's name to your posts grand finale. This is what I am saying - Ole did a good to very good job, but the big step, the club has taken after the dark days of Mourinho isn't a step taken only from Ole. You named one of the other factors, a transfer that worked out like almost no other transfer anywhere before.

 

[Grylte]

So I guess I try to take "realistic expectations" into account and thats why these are currently my ratings for the transfers

AWB: 5.5/10
Maguire: 6.75/10
James: 4.75/10
Bruno: 8.75/10
Telles: 6/10
DVB: 3/10

Why not 4.872643523523 while you're at it?


If you don't think AWB and Maguire have been better than that, i am really curious to what players you'd rather want.
They both have been very good and consistent for us, i'd have them at 7 and 8, maybe even 9 on Maguire for playing every minute.

 

[Ole's screen]

Hmm, maybe my take on the whole transfer thing is different than to most of you... Let me explain. If the manager of team T goes for a player P with a proven record in a position where T has noone of starting eleven quality and he pays not an completely stupid amount of money for it, I see two outcomes:
1) player works out, a squad hole is closed
2) player doesn't work out, position remains problematic

In scenario 1, I'd say this is a 6 out of 10 transfer because going for a proven player in a position of need that works out is good (not very good, could be very good if the price/deal is very good)
In scenario 2 I'd say it is a 5 out of 10 transfer because what can you do more than getting a proven player in (lets not get into not using him accurately).

So going for proven players can only earn you more than a "good" grade in my eyes, if the proven player is brought for a position where the squad isn't in dire need but the transfer fires up the team and brings new impulses and competition for places.

If a manager would want to get more points, he/she would have to go for talents or not as well known prospects. Here the factor of money comes in. If this prospect is brought for big amount and fails, 2-4 out of 10. If the prospect succeeds 7-9 out of 10. If the prospect is brought for small to medium amount and succeeds 7-9 out of 10.

So I guess I try to take "realistic expectations" into account and thats why these are currently my ratings for the transfers

AWB: 5.5/10
Maguire: 6.75/10
James: 4.75/10
Bruno: 8.75/10
Telles: 6/10
DVB: 3/10
Sancho: ?/10 (4 to 9, lower if he starts playing Playstation like Dembele, higher if he becomes one of the best players in the league)
Varane: ?/10 (5 to 7, lower if it turns out, he doesn't really care, maybe higher if he starts to score like Ramos)

This averages at 5.8, which is pretty good. Guessing that Varane ends up at 6 and Sancho at 7 averages at 6. Guessing Varane at 7 and Sancho at 8, averages at 6.3 which would be on the brink of "very good".

Please don't tell me, that this is subjective. I know it is to an extent but I think, it is still pretty reasonable.


I understand you. But what and how Arsenal spent his budget doesn't make a good measure for quality. So even if I agree with you, that Arsenals should have done better and that we did pretty good, pretty good doesn't turn into magnificient.


Sorry to hear but, and I really want to make sure, that I mean that as respectful as possible, I don't really care of how much of a trouble you went emotionally. I don't think, I underestimate Ole. I think, I rate him very fairly. If you don't agree, that's fine and I read your reasoning but it didn't change my view. I hope, we can still argue over stuff from here on.


Listen to yourself. You felt the need to add Bruno's name to your posts grand finale. This is what I am saying - Ole did a good to very good job, but the big step, the club has taken after the dark days of Mourinho isn't a step taken only from Ole. You named one of the other factors, a transfer that worked out like almost no other transfer anywhere before.

I'm sorry if Bruno's not a 10 and your scale is broken.

Also Maguire is an 8 at worst and AWB a 7. Any lower and you're not being realistic.

Listen to yourself. You felt the need to add Bruno's name to your posts grand finale. This is what I am saying - Ole did a good to very good job, but the big step, the club has taken after the dark days of Mourinho isn't a step taken only from Ole. You named one of the other factors, a transfer that worked out like almost no other transfer anywhere before.

I'm sorry, why is Bruno making the team better a slight against Ole or takes away from his ability? In fact the reason the transfer had worked out so well is a lot to do with Ol'se coaching and management. He managed the team to still be competitive with Periera at number 10. So much so that adding a good 10 in Bruno drastically improved the team. A worse manager would not have had the team improve that much just by adding one player, or if they did that improvement would not last long and would flatten over time as Bruno got into the "inferior" coaching environment.

Your entire posts smacks of just having made up your mind on Ole based on his CV prior to getting the United job and now using everything possible to minimize his role in our improvements and to place artificial ceilings on our potential with him in charge.

 

[rotherham_red]

It isn't "warped logic" at all. Sticking with your example: don't you think, Arteta would have taken AWB or Maguire? I think he would but there were 130million pounds in the way.

I didn't want to say, recruiting is easy but you have to agree with me that a certain aptitude in identifying talent is required for the job. And yes, I give it you, Ole has shown this talent. But not to any sort of magnificient extent. Again, Maguire, AWB and Sancho were/are obvious choices, standout players in recent PL history in positions of need. Plus british. I'd even argue, that you wouldn't even have to read a scouting report for that. Going for Bruno was great, very great perhaps and it paid off. Kudos. But for Bruno you have Donny to balance it out.

It is funny, because I feel my arguments are perceived as if I would say, Ole has no qualities. But I dont - he has some very valuable qualities but I think, these qualities are somewhat inflated around here. And just to make sure: mentioning that we are the strongest in years doesn't really go against my standpoint. I agree with that but that isn't just due to Ole being a godlike-figure to unwirl the worlds biggest mysteries. Is this something, you feel unjust or so? That I don't agree that Ole is ubergreat but only good to very good?

Your point kinda falls down when Arteta has spent £50m on White and the was willing to spend £30m on Ramsdale in the same summer when his biggest problems are in midfield and forward areas...

 

[roonster09]

Why not 4.872643523523 while you're at it?

I hope someone comes up with rating like that.

 

[432JuanMata]

When I look at the top 4 sides and see that we are 4th favourites in the bookmakers I get why. While I feel we are 2nd on paper the teams ahead of us have managers that have won loads in their careers and the doubt is still there for Ole even from some fans.

While that doubt is there he has done such a good job at getting rid of deadwood and actually making a top side with the right players and the right style. He is 150% the most exciting manager we have had after SAF and really has installed the right mentality and brought back the football that our fans want too see.

I can understand people having the doubts of him being able to win titles and I would like to see us against teams that sit deep where we struggled but if anyone says he isn’t doing one hell of a job they are lying

 

[RedSky]

Why not 4.872643523523 while you're at it?


If you don't think AWB and Maguire have been better than that, i am really curious to what players you'd rather want.
They both have been very good and consistent for us, i'd have them at 7 and 8, maybe even 9 on Maguire for playing every minute.

You're forgetting to carry the extra 1.127134111232 from the Europa League performances.

 

[anant]

Hmm, maybe my take on the whole transfer thing is different than to most of you... Let me explain. If the manager of team T goes for a player P with a proven record in a position where T has noone of starting eleven quality and he pays not an completely stupid amount of money for it, I see two outcomes:
1) player works out, a squad hole is closed
2) player doesn't work out, position remains problematic

In scenario 1, I'd say this is a 6 out of 10 transfer because going for a proven player in a position of need that works out is good (not very good, could be very good if the price/deal is very good)
In scenario 2 I'd say it is a 5 out of 10 transfer because what can you do more than getting a proven player in (lets not get into not using him accurately).

So going for proven players can only earn you more than a "good" grade in my eyes, if the proven player is brought for a position where the squad isn't in dire need but the transfer fires up the team and brings new impulses and competition for places.

If a manager would want to get more points, he/she would have to go for talents or not as well known prospects. Here the factor of money comes in. If this prospect is brought for big amount and fails, 2-4 out of 10. If the prospect succeeds 7-9 out of 10. If the prospect is brought for small to medium amount and succeeds 7-9 out of 10.

So I guess I try to take "realistic expectations" into account and thats why these are currently my ratings for the transfers

AWB: 5.5/10
Maguire: 6.75/10
James: 4.75/10
Bruno: 8.75/10
Telles: 6/10
DVB: 3/10
Sancho: ?/10 (4 to 9, lower if he starts playing Playstation like Dembele, higher if he becomes one of the best players in the league)
Varane: ?/10 (5 to 7, lower if it turns out, he doesn't really care, maybe higher if he starts to score like Ramos)

This averages at 5.8, which is pretty good. Guessing that Varane ends up at 6 and Sancho at 7 averages at 6. Guessing Varane at 7 and Sancho at 8, averages at 6.3 which would be on the brink of "very good".

Please don't tell me, that this is subjective. I know it is to an extent but I think, it is still pretty reasonable.


I understand you. But what and how Arsenal spent his budget doesn't make a good measure for quality. So even if I agree with you, that Arsenals should have done better and that we did pretty good, pretty good doesn't turn into magnificient.


Sorry to hear but, and I really want to make sure, that I mean that as respectful as possible, I don't really care of how much of a trouble you went emotionally. I don't think, I underestimate Ole. I think, I rate him very fairly. If you don't agree, that's fine and I read your reasoning but it didn't change my view. I hope, we can still argue over stuff from here on.


Listen to yourself. You felt the need to add Bruno's name to your posts grand finale. This is what I am saying - Ole did a good to very good job, but the big step, the club has taken after the dark days of Mourinho isn't a step taken only from Ole. You named one of the other factors, a transfer that worked out like almost no other transfer anywhere before.

Wtf is that criteria and those ratings?

So, Di Maria, Alexis, Mkhitaryan, Schmidfield are all 5/10 as they were proven players but didn't work out. However, AWB is just 5.75? VDB is less than Alexis? If in your rating AWB is just 5.75 instead of 7-7.5, and Maguire is 6.75 instead of 8.5/9, I think, it's your rating scale that requires fixing.

And to your last para, transfers work when you have a plan for what you want to do from that player. If you're buying weird players who, right from the off, sound like terrible picks, you're going to struggle. If you're looking to buy Dalot instead of Pereira when both are available, and are available for the same price, and your RB is done physically, it's not an "unlucky" transfer. Similarly, when you're buying a player who is willing to take risks, takes games by the scruff of the neck, is vocal, etc., it's a well researched transfer instead of "lucky" transfer.

 

[432JuanMata]

Wtf is that criteria and those ratings?

So, Di Maria, Alexis, Mkhitaryan, Schmidfield are all 5/10 as they were proven players but didn't work out. However, AWB is just 5.75? VDB is less than Alexis? If in your rating AWB is just 5.75 instead of 7-7.5, and Maguire is 6.75 instead of 8.5/9, I think, it's your rating scale that requires fixing.

And to your last para, transfers work when you have a plan for what you want to do from that player. If you're buying weird players who, right from the off, sound like terrible picks, you're going to struggle. If you're looking to buy Dalot instead of Pereira when both are available, and are available for the same price, and your RB is done physically, it's not an "unlucky" transfer. Similarly, when you're buying a player who is willing to take risks, takes games by the scruff of the neck, is vocal, etc., it's a well researched transfer instead of "lucky" transfer.

Maguire is also a 8 with Bruno being a 10.

What he failed to mention was we are buying for the positions that we need instead of just finding the best players. I also see he didn’t mention Cavani

 

[NZT-One]

Good to see so much engagement for a subjective Rating system I haven't insisted it would be flawless or the stone of the sorcerer. But good to know, that it is broken, because you don't agree with. It could be seen as a bit telling...

 

[AshRK]

Good to see so much engagement for a subjective Rating system I haven't insisted it would be flawless or the stone of the sorcerer. But good to know, that it is broken, because you don't agree with. It could be seen as a bit telling...

The issue is you keep on saying people are overrating Ole and his transfers but it is actually you who is constantly downplaying and acting like Ole tookover an easy job. No one here is arguing Ole is the perfect manager or he will defenitely win the league but to act as if he is just doing a "meh" job is weird.

 

[NZT-One]

Why not 4.872643523523 while you're at it?


If you don't think AWB and Maguire have been better than that, i am really curious to what players you'd rather want.
They both have been very good and consistent for us, i'd have them at 7 and 8, maybe even 9 on Maguire for playing every minute.

I didn't want to come up with too many digits but it is hard to show nuances when you only have 10 grades. And I don't understand your question to be honest - I am not expecting a manager to be able to bring in only 10 out of 10 transfers all the time. As I said, AWB, Maguire, Sancho - the obvious choices. There is nothing wrong with it. But that doesn't make the transfers any better FOR ME. And when I want to rate the transfer abilities of a manager, it doesn't really work if I only have 7s, 8s and 9s. The issue I think is, you guys seem to think, that a 6 is a bad grade. It isn't! It is somebody who reliably performs according to the expectations and exceeds them more often than not.

Your point kinda falls down when Arteta has spent £50m on White and the was willing to spend £30m on Ramsdale in the same summer when his biggest problems are in midfield and forward areas...

How does it fall down?! Arteta spending bad has no effect whatsoever to make our transfers better. What if Tuchel now starts to go and collect Lewandowski, Goretzka and Kimmich. Would that make our transfers until now worse? No it wouldn't effect it at all. I don't get, that this seems to be so outlandish to grasp - it is the difference between absolute and relative values.

When you feck up your drivers licence test 10 times in a row, but a few other guys feck it 15 times, doesn't make you better ,doesnt it?

I can understand people having the doubts of him being able to win titles and I would like to see us against teams that sit deep where we struggled but if anyone says he isn’t doing one hell of a job they are lying.

How can somebody lie about an opinion? FFS are you serious? All of the things we come with here are opinions based on stuff we see on a screen and a few information scraps we get around that. And I again, would like to ask you to start reading the post you are opposing - noone is denying him any credit he is due. But to think, there is no chance, that somebody else could have done just as good, isn't very plausible. It is a valid opinion. But thats the opposite as well.

 

[NZT-One]

The issue is you keep on saying people are overrating Ole and his transfers but it is actually you who is constantly downplaying and acting like Ole tookover an easy job. No one here is arguing Ole is the perfect manager or he will defenitely win the league but to act as if he is just doing a "meh" job is weird.

How do you come up with "meh" job. I am constantly saying he is doing a very good job. Seriously, I dont get it. Maybe it is me being German and the scale for you is beginning with good going upwards into legendary. I am not denying Ole anything. I dont think he is perfect, I dont think, only him could have got us where we are now. Can I prove that? No how would it be possible. But nobody can prove the opposite as well. Thats my point.

 

[432JuanMata]

I didn't want to come up with too many digits but it is hard to show nuances when you only have 10 grades. And I don't understand your question to be honest - I am not expecting a manager to be able to bring in only 10 out of 10 transfers all the time. As I said, AWB, Maguire, Sancho - the obvious choices. There is nothing wrong with it. But that doesn't make the transfers any better FOR ME. And when I want to rate the transfer abilities of a manager, it doesn't really work if I only have 7s, 8s and 9s. The issue I think is, you guys seem to think, that a 6 is a bad grade. It isn't! It is somebody who reliably performs according to the expectations and exceeds them more often than not.


How does it fall down?! Arteta spending bad has no effect whatsoever to make our transfers better. What if Tuchel now starts to go and collect Lewandowski, Goretzka and Kimmich. Would that make our transfers until now worse? No it wouldn't effect it at all. I don't get, that this seems to be so outlandish to grasp - it is the difference between absolute and relative values.

When you feck up your drivers licence test 10 times in a row, but a few other guys feck it 15 times, doesn't make you better ,doesnt it?


How can somebody lie about an opinion? FFS are you serious? All of the things we come with here are opinions based on stuff we see on a screen and a few information scraps we get around that. And I again, would like to ask you to start reading the post you are opposing - noone is denying him any credit he is due. But to think, there is no chance, that somebody else could have done just as good, isn't very plausible. It is a valid opinion. But thats the opposite as well.

Well I for one never said somebody wouldn’t of done better, I said the lying part because he has obviously done a good job and if you don’t see it you are lying to yourself.
Look I have my doubts if he can win titles and it’s a genuine concern but this season is the first time under Ole where I feel we even have a squad to challenge

 

[NZT-One]

Wtf is that criteria and those ratings?

So, Di Maria, Alexis, Mkhitaryan, Schmidfield are all 5/10 as they were proven players but didn't work out. However, AWB is just 5.75? VDB is less than Alexis? If in your rating AWB is just 5.75 instead of 7-7.5, and Maguire is 6.75 instead of 8.5/9, I think, it's your rating scale that requires fixing.

And to your last para, transfers work when you have a plan for what you want to do from that player. If you're buying weird players who, right from the off, sound like terrible picks, you're going to struggle. If you're looking to buy Dalot instead of Pereira when both are available, and are available for the same price, and your RB is done physically, it's not an "unlucky" transfer. Similarly, when you're buying a player who is willing to take risks, takes games by the scruff of the neck, is vocal, etc., it's a well researched transfer instead of "lucky" transfer.

Because we have so many good discussions let me come back to you.

My grades knowing anything we know today:
Di Maria - 4.5/10
Mkhitaryan - 5.5/10
Schneiderlin - 4.5/10
Schweinsteiger - 5/10

Di Maria was a very good choice, a player who played in a position of need having excelled in a CL Final just before. It didn't work out in the end, I think, LVG takes most of the blame because he wanted him to play in a way, that didn't suit him. He went on to perform well for PSG. That makes it an alright transfer for LVG but not more.

Mkhitaryan was a good player but proper scouting maybe would have shown, that Mourinhos character wouldn't do him very well. I think, going for him wasn't a mistake but it wasnt a great transfer. It was good.

Schneiderlin was very good the year before joining us. But it didn't work out. Noone would say, we weren't in the need of a player like that. That he performed how he did was rather unexpected. He went on to be invisible later. Alright transfer.

Schweinsteiger - great former player but already on a decline. I think, it was worth a shot, it didn't work out in the end but the player played very well under LVG before so it was worth a shot.


AWB is here since two seasons. He has been identified by opponents for being a weak link in our built up play. He isn't very good on the ball or a real threat down his side. How would you argue, he deserves more than good? He is young, I haven't said, that these grades are final verdicts. If he improves or gives us years of service then obviously this grade will improve. But giving him 7 or more isn't based on anything but fan view and hope. Thats fine, use whatever metric you want but I like my system more. Same goes for Maguire, even though I can understand the outrage easier for him than for AWB. In my eyes, he was pretty good in his first season, but was very very expensive. He didn't have a great start last season for the first 3 to 4 month, then went on to be pretty good. So that is his grade. Pretty good - 6 to 7 out of ten. Doesn't mean he wasn't important for us, the grade is for the transfer as a whole. And if you come to the club for 80 million, this has to be reflected in the grade in my eyes. If he goes on to become a mainstay as our captain, scores headers like for England and in pre-season, then of course I will up his grade.

I haven't even rated half of the guys you are throwing at me. Don't know where rage comes from? Alexis would be a 1.5 out of ten. And DVB still has the chance to improve his grade.

By the second paragraph: I think I agree, Dalot was a talent, he is worth a shot that didn't paid off until now. Would never use him to criticize the manager for it because investing in talent needs to be credited. The other player must be Bruno I guess, right?
I did name that transfer lucky. Of course we scouted him, were aware of his risky stuff and chose to get him. And it paid off. But that it paid off to the extent it did with Bruno is unheard of. I would put money that Ole would agree to me, that this was way more than what was expected. Ole changed the whole outlook of the team to suit Bruno and he adjusted to the new environment as if it is nothing. Add the whole corona business to the environment as well. These are things that cannot be scouted, that happens once every 5 years, actually I can't think of a transfer that worked that well on so many levels.

 

[NZT-One]

Well I for one never said somebody wouldn’t of done better, I said the lying part because he has obviously done a good job and if you don’t see it you are lying to yourself.
Look I have my doubts if he can win titles and it’s a genuine concern but this season is the first time under Ole where I feel we even have a squad to challenge

Alright. No issue with that. But it is exactly what I said as well. I also think, he is doing "a good job". Even more weird to use the word lying to be honest. No need to feel threatened(?).

you were right about me missing Cavani - I added him(7/10) and Dalot(4.5/10) into my post.

 

[AshRK]

How do you come up with "meh" job. I am constantly saying he is doing a very good job. Seriously, I dont get it. Maybe it is me being German and the scale for you is beginning with good going upwards into legendary. I am not denying Ole anything. I dont think he is perfect, I dont think, only him could have got us where we are now. Can I prove that? No how would it be possible. But nobody can prove the opposite as well. Thats my point.

But who said he is perfect or who said he is the only man who could have done that. It's like you are making arguments for the sake if it just because someone is crediting Ole. It doesn't matter if others could have done similar squad building. It is irrelevant, it only matters if someone says no one could have done what Ole did. I don't think anyone said that.

 

[NZT-One]

But who said he is perfect or who said he is the only man who could have done that. It's like you are making arguments for the sake if it just because someone is crediting Ole. It doesn't matter if others could have done similar squad building. It is irrelevant, it only matters if someone says no one could have done what Ole did. I don't think anyone said that.

I know. That is true. The debate started by me commenting on an illustration pointing out the squad transformation from 2018 to 2021 label'ed with "Oles work". I noted, that I don't think, it is just Oles work and that other factors come into play. What then started looks to me as if people felt attacked by me being not as enthusiastic as they were. I can live with that, but I don't see any wrong doing on my part.

I understand people being emotional wanting to defend their guys but I think, I laid out my reasoning in a respectful way and can't do more then that.

 

[AshRK]

I know. That is true. The debate started by me commenting on an illustration pointing out the squad transformation from 2018 to 2021 label'ed with "Oles work". I noted, that I don't think, it is just Oles work and that other factors come into play. What then started looks to me as if people felt attacked by me being not as enthusiastic as they were. I can live with that, but I don't see any wrong doing on my part.

I understand people being emotional wanting to defend their guys but I think, I laid out my reasoning in a respectful way and can't do more then that.

Just out of curiosity what are the other factors that you are alluding to here. So you are saying the squad transformation is not down to Ole but other factors.